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  #41  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:14 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I do not recommend you give your h 34 years of your life.
I would add onto that sentence: ...if he isn't willing to take responsibility for his feelings, examine his prejudices and issues, talk more, and stop blaming his wife.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:16 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by InfinitePossibility View Post
This I agree with wholeheartedly. I have absolutely no idea why everybody is so utterly fixated on PIV sex. I like it, for sure. Like it loads. But, it's just one way of having sex. There are loads and loads of others and I don't agree at all with the idea that unless you are having PIV sex, it isn't proper sex.
Felt the need to comment, because this follows with a few conversations that I have had recently regarding my "cheating" (self-delusional, jack-assed) start with Dude. A number of people have expressed the opinion that they didn't see what I did (outlined in my "Journey" blog here) as being "so bad" because we didn't "actually" have sex (apparently, because nobody's genitals were ever in direct contact with any body part of the other person - regardless of orgasms).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
... and maybe the same kind of touch from C that excites me will just annoy me from my husband.
This could actually be true! I respond differently to the same kind of touch from each of my boys. A given action from MrS might feel...tender, loving , sensual - while the same action from Dude might feel...demanding, manipulative, over-eager. How can this be? Because you have a different relationship/history with each person.

So? Nuzzling my neck and kissing me behind the earlobes. MrS does this once in a while...makes me melt. He is NOT a very physical/sensual/sexual person...so when HE does this thing, my brain snaps to attention. Dude does the same thing... 4-5 times a day, when he is horny, which is always. Eventually, it feels like he is trying to push my "ON" button to get HIS desires met. The same action is no longer as much of a turn-on: maybe it just tickles instead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Hands/mouths get tired, things chafe -- it's not a big deal around here to just announce "Time to change! Leg cramp!" or "Need more lube!" or something and just shift things around and keep enjoying the sex share.
KERSNORT! One of the things that our "romantic love= blissfull sex" culture fails to educate people on is how FUNNY sex is sometimes. The cultural delusion of : two virgins fall in love, get married, and somehow magically know how to have the best sex ever right from the start...orgasms all around, every time...because you "LLLLL....UUUUUUU...VVV...EEEE" each other.

(Note: this is from what I have gleaned from comments of many people over the years - I never, personally, bought into this meme - so I bypassed this disillusionment.)

Know what? People fart. Vaginas get dry (I have a "lube in every room" story floating around here somewhere). Vibrator batteries die at crucial moments. Sometimes you end up laughing so hard that the "tender" flies out the window and you hold each other laughing hysterically...it's all good. Try again in a bit ... (if you ever manage to stop giggling!)

******

There may have been a point to this post initially...I have lost it...will just let it stand.

JaneQ
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MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS (1+ years)
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs here:
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  #43  
Old 07-10-2013, 04:22 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Sometimes rearranging things helps see things in another way. So here's an attempt at it. You fix it how you like better, ok?

HE WANTS

He wants us to stay together. (In a healthy way or not? No mention of the QUALITY of staying together)
  • He is/ is not willing to do the work required.
  • He is / is not able to do the work required at this time. Does / does not need to learn new skills?


Living in polyship issues:
  • His dream future involves me returning to monogamy, but he's not holding his breath.
  • My husband is not comfortable with C's role in my life, and he says it's not a deal breaker at this point.
  • He also believes it will get easier in time, when our kids are older, and my family needs less of my time.

Sex Issues:
  • He wants us to have an active sex life.
  • He wants PIV sex.
  • He's ok having sex less often than what I would want.
  • He doesn't want to have to initiate because he fears rejection. I used to turn him down in the past a lot and he got used to it. (abusive past rship, celiac, etc.)
  • He doesn't feel like having sex if I'm about to go be with C, or have recently come back from seeing C, or am planning a trip with C. (← Because then it feels like you are doing “duty” sex with him rather than "desiring him" sex with him? Something else?)
  • He wants to be free (?) of feeling rejected, punished, unwanted?
  • He wants to feel desired, appreciated, wanted. (?)

HIS NEED
  • He needs to practice his conversation skills.

I WANT
  • I care about keeping our marriage intact. (In a healthy way or not? No mention of the QUALITY of staying together.)
  • I don't want to throw out an otherwise solid marriage and break up a family. I want to rediscover the intimacy.
  • I want to rediscover and learn to enjoy each other as we are.
  • I am / am not willing to do the work required.
  • I am / am not able to do the work required at this time. I do / do not need to learn new skills?

Living in polyship issues:
  • To give myself permission to love and have both DH and C . (How do you withold it from yourself?)
  • To be free of guilty/shameful feelings that I have both a DH and a BF (← what trips the guilt/shame? What behaviors do you do in your management of your relationships or treatment of the people in your relationships makes you feel proud? Not proud?)
  • To not feel judged. (Who is judging you? DH or you?)
  • To not compare C and DH -- I catch myself thinking, "Why can't he treat me the way C does?"
  • To meet my family obligations first -- fill my family's cup, in the various ways each of them need me, before I devote time and energy to someone else like C. (<--- DO you meet are your family obligations first? Where does meeting your own needs fall in this spectrum?)
  • I want to feel included in husband's inner world and hear about his problems, talk more, etc. I want to feel close to my husband emotionally. I feel rejected when he does not disclose. (He says he doesn't want to burden me. I feel "not let in.")
  • I want DH's approval (?), his love, his desire (?), his acceptance (?)
  • I hear myself saying critical things and I hate what's coming out of me. (<-- I could improve how I communicate with my husband? Learn non-violent communication?)

Sex related issues:
  • I want more sex -- I don't see C. often and sex with DH is not often either.
  • I want a marital sex life that feels close, happy, and natural.
  • I want DH to initiate sex so I can feel desired by him. (When he doesn't ask, I feel rejected by him. [Even though I helped co-create this habit of his in the past by turning him down?])
  • To be free of DH thinking sex things we do /do not do is somehow "me punishing him" for the no PIV rule with C. I am ok with this boundary. Truly! (← Why is DH not ok with it then and keeps thinking you punish him for it? Do you punish him?)
  • I have some resentment around not being "allowed" to have PIV sex with C. (<--- I am ok not having PIV sex with C, but I resent not getting to pick that myself? Is that it? Or you don't like it as a hard limit? Prefer it as a soft limit? Or you think it means you are not trusted?)
  • To be able to relax in sex with my spouse. (When I feel an expectation for sex, I get even more tense about whether I'm reacting the right way to his touch. ) (Right way for what? For who? Who is judging the sex share between you?)
  • I want to suggest we expand the definition of sexy time to be less pressured "sensual time. " (Kissing, hugging, making out, taking showers together -- sensual time. To see if it takes the sex pressure off.)
  • I am not willing (?) to schedule a date night with spouse that could include sex/sensual play options in it because I don't want him to expect me to have sex every time we have a date night? (<---Is this leftover stuff from the past abusive relationship? )
  • To feel not bad that my husband seemed to get by just fine whether we had sex or not in the past (even though initially I was ok with it too because of illness, etc.)
  • I have raised my expectations of my husband sexually. I have/have not let him know these changes in expectations. The expectations are / are not realistic for me to expect of my husband.
  • I want to feel as though husband enjoys sex with me and isn't "just going through to the motions" just to get to penetration. (Do you "go through the motions" of sex with DH for any reason?)
  • I want him to mentally come to terms with being married to a woman who has sex with someone else. (<-- Have you mentally come to terms with that? There's a lot of guilt/resentment/weird here.)
  • I want (?) to let my sexual self loose around him. (You withold this because...?)

I NEED
  • Not listed?

C WANTS/NEEDS
  • Not listed?

LIMITS EVERYONE DEALS WITH
  • No PIV sex with C (You and DH seem to have issues connected with this limit. Could resolve them.)
  • C lives elsewhere so seeing him requires planning ahead. (DH seems to have issues with frequency here (from past posts, mentioned slightly in this thread. Could explore why.)
  • C. not willing to remain in relationship with you if you break up with DH. (Or is that "C. not willing to be used as the EXCUSE/REASON for the break up?")
    Do you let C's willingness to participate in polyship be C's own willingness? Or do you pile resentment about C's willingness to be in relationship with you on DH's head?
  • No other limits acknowledged.

---------------------

How much of this is
  • YOU resolving your emotional issues and not projecting them on to him
  • HIM resolving his emotional issues and not projecting then on to you

.... that's for you guys to sort out.

If there's things missing on the lists of wants -- could print that draft and start putting more on. Could sort out the wants, needs, and limits in to groups better than me. You know you guys better than some internet stranger anyway.

What are the needs of the MARRIAGE to stay healthy? You both say you want it, but are you both tending to its needs?

It's like you both want to feel desired by the other one but neither one wants to risk initiating sex themselves because they fear... what? Neither one wants to risk being emotionally bare to the other because they fear... what?

And in the unwilling to come close together sexually or emotionally for fear of feeling yucky... you risk slowly drifting apart over time because the gap widens?

Is it that YOU are having trouble believing this:

Quote:
My husband is not comfortable with C's role in my life, and he says it's not a deal breaker at this point. He also believes it will get easier in time, when our kids are older, and my family needs less of my time.
How come? Do his words not match his actions? You don't think it will get easier in time? You worry about it becoming a deal breaker for him at some point? Because then you deal with
  • DH no longer willing to participate in a polyship with me and C.
  • C not willing to participate in a polyship if DH and I are broken up.
  • Result: I no longer have a polyship? (and you don't like that?)

To me it sounds like sometimes you both are using sex to do the work of emotional intimacy rather than doing the talking that builds emotional intimacy. It seems like there's some communication problems in expressing needs to me. There's this big thing of WANTS but the only articulated NEED listed is him needing to work on his conversation skills? Weird.

Could take a need inventory and better define the needs, and then brainstorm how to meet the needs in NON-SEX ways. That could free sex up to just be a "good sex share" between you and not be "the Superman bandaid of all things" in this marriage.

I do not expect you to answer. My intent in writing that whole long thing is to give YOU new angles to think about it all from on your own in case different approaches helps you find your way.

I sincerely hope you guys can work this out between you and DO find your way.

Namaste,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-10-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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  #44  
Old 07-10-2013, 09:19 AM
london london is offline
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Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
It's a bit much to call what I'm going through lately being "sexually repulsed" by my husband. We have had plenty of good sex over the years. His body is attractive (he turns heads). I just feel like the dynamic between us isn't sexy these days. I want to fix that. I don't want to throw out an otherwise solid marriage and break up a family. I want to rediscover the intimacy. I was hoping someone had some recommendations along those lines. I know "give up" is an option, but to me it's a last resort, not a knee jerk response.
Maybe give up on trying to make you and your husband more sexually compatible and get your sexual needs met elsewhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
If I ended my marriage I would also be ending my relationship with C, because he is flatly unwilling to take me away from my husband. I could have PIV sex with C once, tell my husband, divorce, and have neither of them. What would be the point?
What C needs to realise that at any time, you and your husband could become so incompatible that it is no longer worth the two of you being in a relationship. Are you telling us that C has emotionally blackmailed you into potentially staying in an unhealthy, unhappy relationship by saying that if you end it with your husband, you'll be ending it with him too? Or is he just trying to ensure that you know that he will never be that kind of primary style partner to you and he fears that you will want that so he has put a massive obstacle in the way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
C has had, in all his past relationships, a sexual difficulty of his own. He can't orgasm during sex, or if he does it takes him ages and ages. Past partners have been frustrated with that. For him, our relationship has been the perfect antidote. He pleases me (I always have better orgasms with fingers anyway) and I don't pressure him to achieve his own orgasms. Or I just enhance the experience for him while he uses his own hand.
Just because you have PIV sex, none of this stuff has to change, he can still jerk to cum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
As much as it would feel nice to remove the taboo of PIV sex, and sort of "have" each other in that complete way, he has said on many occasions that his sex life has never been so exciting or satisfying with anyone else. We're not trying to make a baby. We really don't need those particular body parts to interact in that particular way in order to have a satisfying time together. It would be nice, the way winning a lottery would be nice.
No, winning the lottery is not comparable to being given the freedom to have an organic relationship with your romantic partner and doing the things you want to do with them. Sex, in your world, is a privilege that your husband offers you. You take what you are given and have to make do with that. That's not how it works for other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
I found an overwhelming array of books on Amazon about rekindling the desire in a low sex marriage. Has anyone read any of those, who could point me to a good choice? Or had some sage advice from a therapist or a friend, that might apply? I'm looking for help fixing the problem, not running away from it. Thanks.
Helping you, in my opinion, would involve getting you to acknowledge that you are sexually incompatible with your husband and getting him to acknowledge that what he is doing to you is unethical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitePossibility View Post
This I agree with wholeheartedly. I have absolutely no idea why everybody is so utterly fixated on PIV sex. I like it, for sure. Like it loads. But, it's just one way of having sex. There are loads and loads of others and I don't agree at all with the idea that unless you are having PIV sex, it isn't proper sex.

I would guess that the reason everybody is so fixed on it in an unquestioning manner is similar to the reason that most people practice monogamy without having any idea why - it's just what you do.

We all grow up with this massive pressure around the first time we have PIV sex and then I think internalise it all so that afterwards no sex feels 'proper' unless it is done that way.

I feel that it's worthwhile questioning these ideas with a critical mind and seeing just how true they are. For me, I'm not religious and I'm not trying to get pregnant so PIV sex isn't a massive deal for me - and hasn't been for years.

There are loads of reasons why PIV sex might be off the table - wish to avoid pregnancy 100%, an STI, ED, religious beliefs, an agreement with another partner. I don't see why it should cause a major problem or be a particular focus.

IP
The big difference is that PIV sex is forbidden by her husband and the OP has highlighted this as an issue. Lots of people can have PIV sex and choose not to, and that's their choice, it's not someone else choosing for them based on their insecurities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
I often feel that when I come on these boards and state a problem I'm having in a relationship, people are quick to jump in and tell me the relationship is not worth keeping. I could have prefaced my question with a history of everything that is right in my marriage, but again, I wasn't asking anyone to judge the merits of staying or leaving. I just want help with my sex life.
The only reason why I mentioned divorce is because you suggested that sexual incompatibility is a shallow reason to split up. I said it wasn't. However, being poly, you don't need to split up, you just need to accept that you both need to find people who you are more sexually compatible with as well as what you have together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
He has said himself that he doesn't feel like having sex if I'm about to go be with C, or have recently come back from seeing C, or am planning a trip with C.
So he has an issue with you being poly and this is the main reason he tries to control how poly you can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
I think what people are mostly uncomfortable with is the idea that a third party can have control over what goes on in a relationship. That my husband would be able to limit what I do with C. However, we all follow all sorts of written and unwritten rules all the time in order to function as a society, a family, a couple. Putting the toilet seat down. Not farting at the dinner table. No having sex in public parks on glorious sunny afternoons. So this limit on my relationship with C isn't a giant deal for me, just something I am able to do in order to avoid pushing my husband beyond what he is able to tolerate.
Again, you are making connections where there are none. Having manners isn't a third party controlling your relationships. They aren't comparable. And I disagree, it is a big deal for you, look:
Quote:
I have some resentment around not being "allowed" to have PIV sex with C
Quote:
I agree that it is a dumb rule
Quote:
it's hard not to resent that I can only have PIV sex in the more difficult relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
I see your point but I think it's going to vary from person to person whether this rule is a big deal or not. Most of us are fine with rules (often unspoken) like "Don't text while I'm having sex with you," or "Don't have unprotected sex with others" because we find these things to be reasonable. Whereas rules like "Tell me everything you do with your other partner" or "Call me every 15 minutes when you are out" would be pretty unreasonable and therefore intolerable to most. In my case, the PIV sex rule is tolerable. I'm a fingers girl. For others on this forum it's a "dumb" rule and a deal breaker. For a large part of society it's a complete given in a marriage. It's a matter of perspective, don't you think? We can't just say that all rules of behavior need to be scrapped. We act with others' interests in mind as well as our own.
Thinking of others goes both ways though. Is your husband considering that he does not meet your sexual needs when he forbids you from getting them met elsewhere? He is actually lucky that you are poly, if you weren't, you'd probably be tempted to leave him or cheat right now. The reason why people are expected not to sex mid shag is because that time is meant to be exclusive to those people having sex. The reason there are agreements about using protection with other people is because I could potentially infect my fluid bonded partner with an STD, that would mean something from one of my relationships is negatively affecting another. That is why it is a no no. I wouldn't make agreements in regards to fluid bonding that were designed specifically to privilege one relationship. Your husband cannot be the stud you want him to be, even when he tries you feel that it is "acting", so your only options now are to either put up with this and stop complaining about it, or, try to get him to understand how sexually frustrated you are, explain that he cannot meet those needs and that you need to have the freedom to do what you need to do in your outside relationships. If he refuses to allow you to do that, you will be sexually unfulfilled. He probably won't care though, by the sounds of it.
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  #45  
Old 07-10-2013, 01:58 PM
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Dagferi Dagferi is offline
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Op I am kind of sort of having a similar issue with my husband.

Sorry this is going to he long.

I love Butch.. don't get me wrong. When we started dating he brought up BDSM and his foot fetish. I tried to meets his BDSM needs. It left me feeling uncomfortable dirty.. I broke up with him.

He immediately said I can live without all that stuff. Our sex life was great for years. Slowly over the years his wants for BDSM crept back up. He started pushing for it hard. We ended up in a Mexican stand off sex wise.

He will not give up requesting those acts from me. Despite me allowing him to find play partners. He just doesn't get it that I do not want any part of it.

After several years I resent him. And I am having a hell of a time getting over it. He will offer an olive branch and I will try to reconnect sexually with him to have him insert kink into things. For example i tried the other night to romance my husband. We were touching and enjoying each others company. He then flipped around in the bed and started trying for foot play. It is an instantaneous turn off. Honestly I wanted to kick him in the face. After several years now I don't know if it is fixable.

My boyfriend makes none of those demands. The sex is organic. All he has to do is give me that look and oh my God. Even after more than a year.

I know things are going to get ugly between my husband and myself. I love himself and I do not want to lose him. But this is not healthy for either one of us.
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Married in the eyes of the government to Butch since 2001...
Murf my monogamous second husband has been with me since May of 2012.
In a V relationship with an average 60/40 split of time. Only due to Murf's and Butch's crappy work schedules.
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  #46  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:12 PM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
The big difference is that PIV sex is forbidden by her husband and the OP has highlighted this as an issue. Lots of people can have PIV sex and choose not to, and that's their choice, it's not someone else choosing for them based on their insecurities.
I'm not convinced I agree. AnotherConfused has said several times that it isn't a massive deal to her. That PIV sex is something that would be nice with C but being without it isn't a huge problem. Even if it is a problem, it seems to be something she's willing to live with to help both her husband and C deal with the relationships they have with her and that she has with the other man.

Her husband has said that this is a limit for him - if she has PIV sex with another man, he will leave her. That's up to him, surely? He has absolutely no obligation to be okay with his wife having PIV sex with other men. That may not be something he is willing to work on.

C doesn't want to think of himself as a marriage wrecker and if the marriage dissolved because of sex with him, he would consider himself that way and would end the relationship with AnotherConfused. Up to him. He's being clear about his limits too.

Anotherconfused is asking for advice about what she can do to enhance sex with her husband. That would seem to me to be a much easier thing to do than to convince her husband to get over his problem with her having PIV sex with C and to convince C to get over his discomfort with seeing himself as a marriage wrecker.

In her shoes, I'd seek help for how to work on my own desire for sex with my husband too - because it's easier to work on things that are my own to deal with than convince others to deal with things that are important to me but not to them.

I wouldn't be in her shoes in the first place, though. I wouldn't get married or have children and as I see relationships as non-fixed, if I wanted other partners and my partner wasn't at all comfortable with that, I would seek to change our relationship first - shift it into friendship or dissolve it completely - before seeking to find other partners.

The notion of keeping somebody to be in a romantic relationship with me while I regularly do something that they dislike so much just doesn't appeal to me. For me, no relationship is worth the guilt.

But in Anotherconfused shoes, I'd try to work on my own problems with desire for my husband and that's what she's asked for help with not a debate about her choices.

I just am kind of fascinated that only PIV sex seems to trigger this response. People on here have many agreements with different partners regarding sex. Some only don't use condoms with one partner and use them with all others - mostly for health reasons but I bet there are some folk who do it to keep a nervous partner happy even though they are convinced that their other partners are safe.

Some only engage in anal play with one partner to keep it special. For others it's other things.

Nobody ever seems to get up in arms about those agreements. Only PIV sex seems to trigger this response which I think is a lot to do with how we all conditioned to view sex.

We are not, as a society, terribly sex positive and I think that this notion that the only 'proper' way to have sex is in a way that may result in pregnancy is a reflection of group tendency toward discomfort with sex. Doing sexual things just for fun and just because they feel good isn't enough.
Or at least that's how it seems to me.

IP
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:25 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is online now
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AC doesnt have a sex problem. She doesnt need to "increase desire for her husband." That sounds friggin Biblical.

It's in Genesis: Your husband will rule over you and you will have desire only for him.

Oh yeah Yahweh? Kiss my ass.

This is 2013. Healthy poly in large part exists because of feminism. Her h, because of being Indian, Christian and extremely conservative, is limiting and controlling his wife. It's not just the PIV, it's his lack of desire when she is planning a date with C, when she is about to go see C, when she is just back from seeing C.

And then he's not even an assertive lover. He lies back in bed, a pillow prince/ss: "Worship my gorgeous body, wife. You do all the work to get me aroused so I can penetrate you. Please you? HA! You don't deserve my efforts. I will squeeze your damn leg and turn you off even. *squeeze* There!"

AC and her husband have an INTIMACY and trust problem. All the tips and tricks to spice up your sex life (like trying to make him cum with a HJ) will not work because they are mere flimsy bandaids on the festering sore of their broken trust.

BTW, I think it's kinda shitty that C had forbidden her from breaking up with her h. He's also controlling her, manipulating her and blackmailing her to protect his own image of himself. I do feel he cares about her more though... but still, AC could talk with him more deeply about this. If she left her h, it wouldnt be FOR C, that is another bit of patriarchal nonsense. She can leave C for HERSELF, her own sanity and dignity.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37

Last edited by Magdlyn; 07-10-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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