Am I Wrong? (An RA Question)

Arius

New member
I loosely identify with the label "Relationship Anarchist."

Here's what I mean when I say that I am a relationship anarchist:

I co-create my relationships based on my specific dynamic with each person I am in relationship with. These relationships may or may not involve varying degrees of romantic or sexual intimacy, such as cuddling, holding hands, going for walks together, making out, flirting, having sex, etc. They might just involve talking. I do not limit intimacy to a specific couple form. I do not ride the relationship escalator from dating to living together to marriage to kids etc. I reject all conventional relationship scripts and choose ones that work for me.

Today my (current) nesting partner (soon to be ex-nesting partner) accused me of being patriarchal because I place greater value on sexual relationships than non-sexual ones. I'm not sure what she meant by this, and I can't ask her because she's at work and then will be tired from coming back from work tonight. So I thought I'd try here.

Is it oppressive or inherently wrong to place more value or emphasis on sexual relationships? If so, why?

Yes, I place high value on sex. To me, sex is the best thing in life and I still feel completely vexed by people who are like: "hot sex? no thanks. maybe later, if there's nothing good on facebook." I want to have as much sex as I possibly can before I grow old and die.

I also value friendship.

Do I value friendship as much as sex? I guess it depends on the specific moment, but as a general rule, no, I don't. Friendship is less pleasurable for me than sex, and, forced to choose between the two, I'd prefer to have sex. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

Am I missing something here?
 
I want to have as much sex as I possibly can before I grow old and die.

I'll let others take a stab at your questions, but just want to clarify that you can have hot sex when you are old.
Death probably takes sex off the table, but old age certainly does not. ;)
 
Hi Arius,

I think it's your right to prioritize the various components of relationships according to what suits you. I don't think it's inherently bad to prioritize sex, that is your right and your privilege. Your current nesting partner prioritizes things differently and that is fine, but to me she is out of line telling you what to do. Also, I don't get how your priorities are supposedly patriarchal. Plenty of women prioritize sex, are they being patriarchal too? :confused:

If you're wondering whether your priorities fit with RA, I really don't know. Does it matter? You live according to what works for you, that's what matters. Hopefully that includes trying not to hurt others, but these are universal ideas, not necessarily limited to RA. I'll let you decide what fits with RA, I have no objection if you still want to identify with that label. Others can object if they want, but it's your life.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Hi Arius,

I wouldn't classify any specific relationship model or form of non-monogamy/polyamory (including relationship anarchy), or what aspects of interpersonal dynamics individuals choose to prioritise within their chosen model as inherently "wrong" - except for knowingly being dishonest, manipulative, cruel or abusive. Everyone's needs are different and the way we choose to express those needs and structure our lives and relationships reflect that.

That said, I personally place more importance on the love and friendship aspects of relationships over the purely sexual, generally speaking. While I enjoy sexual intimacy immensely and believe physical attraction is important, sex is "a" priority in my life, not "the" priority. I tend toward being sapiosexual, however; meaning that I do not become especially interested in a potential partner unless or until I feel a strong mental, emotional and/or spiritual connection to that person. But that's just the way I am wired and I concede not everyone is like me.

Your questions are difficult to answer without knowing more about your particular situation, domestic set-up and relationship history, however since you ask, I'm going to guess at what your current partner might have meant by her statement, and why.

Since you chose to live with a "nesting partner" (itself a priority, and somewhere on the relationship escalator for most people unless you were already housemates before becoming involved sexually), the assumption is that you two would both be on a similar, if not exactly the same page, regarding your lifestyle and priorities.

Relationship anarchy aside, your current partner probably presumed you would value other aspects of the relationship, as well as her own personal attributes/contributions to your joint home at least as highly as the sexual component, or why would they have agreed to live in such an arrangement unless she is also a RA in the same mould as you?

Since she is a woman (and many women have first hand experience being objectified, or sexually harassed or used), the accusation of being "patriarchal" MAY spring from a feeling that she is mainly an object of sexual gratification for you, rather than a true friend and partner. Perhaps she didn't feel like that in the beginning and has changed her outlook or values. Perhaps she entered the arrangement with you under some misapprehension, it's hard to say. I'd definitely ask her when you feel she is rested and willing to go there in conversation.

Also, you insinuated you're about to either break up or she will be moving out, but you didn't specify if the impending change to your living arrangements is anything to do with this argument or her/your difference in attitudes and priorities.
 
I don't see how valuing sexual relationships over non-sexual ones would be patriarchal. What is it when women do it? Maybe her comment came from her personal feelings about your relationship, as lunabunny said.

Is it wrong? I don't know. I value sex as much as the next guy. I also value friendship. I guess I'd have to hear what your actions are in regards to how you value one over the other. I've never had a conflict having both.
 
I wouldn't say patriarchal but putting sex above love or friendship does seem to be more common in males (from the stories & opinions I've heard online & in person) and this often causes problems in mono couples - After years of marriage if he can't have lots of hot sex with his wife he says 'this isn't a real marriage' and leaves, or threatens to. To him sex is the most important thing and he'd throw away everything else to get it. To her, love, friendship, partnership is more important than sex, so she wants to stay married even if there's no sex for whatever reason - after all, she didnt' get married just to have sex.
Not saying this is all couples or the reverse doesn't sometimes happen.
Either way, that's the problem I find with valuing sex above love - that love and people get discarded when the sex stops. All well and good when it's with a fuck-buddy and neither is emotionally attached.

If my husband said hot sex was more important to him than friendship or love or any other type of relationship, I would feel (a) insulted that my love, my friendship, our past, our kids were less important than a fleeting physical pleasure, (b) threatened and worried that if I wasn't whoring myself out to him, I would lose my husband, my best friend, my kid's father, my financial security, my partner in life. - And that is the association with patriarchy - the value men place on sex that forces their wives to be their whore.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I tend toward being sapiosexual, however; meaning that I do not become especially interested in a potential partner unless or until I feel a strong mental, emotional and/or spiritual connection to that person.

This is a bit of an aside, but my understanding of the terms is that what you are describing is "demisexuality," not sapiosexuality. I believe sapiosexuality refers to being turned on by intelligence. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Since you chose to live with a "nesting partner" (itself a priority, and somewhere on the relationship escalator for most people...

In my opinion, it's only on the relationship escalator if it's part of the acting out of an unconscious relationship script that moves from dating to living together, getting married, buying a house, having kids, etc. We choose the parts of that script that work for us and ditch the rest. So, for example, I will never get married or have kids and I'll probably never buy a house with a partner. And I don't consider those choices a sign of immaturity. They are just my preferences.

We've chosen to live together on three separate occasions now. Each time, it's been a disaster and led to conflict in our relationship. This is definitely the last time we'll experiment with that. This doesn't mean our relationship is less valid than a relationship in which people live together. It just means that living together doesn't work for us.

That's what RA means to me: discarding the conventional scripts and deciding what works for our relationship based on whatever overlap there is in our desires.


...your current partner probably presumed you would value other aspects of the relationship, as well as her own personal attributes/contributions to your joint home at least as highly as the sexual component...

Of course. And I do place high value on those things, to the limited degree that she still offers them to me.

Honestly, I think I just didn't have enough information to even begin this conversation properly, and now it's just getting ridiculous because of that. I would talk to her, but she keeps complaining that every conversation we have leads to conflict, and so I'd rather just drop it. If it comes up again, I can examine it then, and if it doesn't come up again then it probably wasn't a problem in the first place.

I think I was partly frustrated because it's hard for me as a male to understand having less testosterone and just not being that gangbusters for sex all the time. It's really a completely different mode of existence and one that is foreign to me. So when my partner says she values cuddling as much as sex, for me that's like saying you value breathing air the same amount as getting a birthday card from your co-workers. I mean, those are both nice things, but one is clearly better than the other.

Maybe I'm being a dumb version of myself here. I mean, I know that (at least for me) sex is only good when the context is right. When the feelings are there, when there's a romantic connection, when there's trust and intimacy. Sex is not just a universally good thing in every context in every moment. So I can imagine a situation in which I would, in that moment, prefer a crispy slice of bacon to sex. Or cuddling and connecting to sex, or whatever.

I guess I was just annoyed that she places such a low value on sex relative to me. And I think she took some things I said to mean that I only value sex, when that's just not the case.



Since she is a woman (and many women have first hand experience being objectified, or sexually harassed or used), the accusation of being "patriarchal" MAY spring from a feeling that she is mainly an object of sexual gratification for you, rather than a true friend and partner.

Yup. This is an excellent point, and your analysis about her feelings is probably correct.

I *think* she was hurt because I considered ending the relationship over the lack of sex. Not because I didn't value the romantic and friendship and housemate etc components of the relationship, but because those other components have degraded so far that I'm not sure there's anything there to cling to, and also because it is really hard for me emotionally to be in a relationship with someone who I used to have sex with and now don't, when the decision to not have sex was entirely one-sided. ie her lack of desire for me is a constant burr in my saddle and probably will be unless and until I cut her out of my life.


Also, you insinuated you're about to either break up or she will be moving out, but you didn't specify if the impending change to your living arrangements is anything to do with this argument or her/your difference in attitudes and priorities.

So the moving out was a mutual agreement that we came to after months of unresolved tension that devolved into constant arguments. It was not my decision (I mean, half of it was, but it was definitely very mutual) and it was not the result of any one conversation.

I hope that clears things up a bit. It certainly did for me.
 
I don't think you were/are actually being patriarchal (or whatever she called you at the time of this conflict.) She was changing the channel. If she gets you to ( go off on a side trip wondering if you are really patriarchal or not) then she's not (having to deal with you asking questions about why the relationship is changing.) Spotlight is not on her any more.

Same as in the other post. She starts wearing a collar without any kind of heads up and expects you to be insta-happy about it. When your reaction is not what she wanted, she changes the channel. Rather than examine how her behavior could be provoking, it's about how your face is wrong and your feeling are wrong and what a drag it is for her to deal with your feelings. Because if we're talking about (you feeling things wrong) we aren't talking about (her provoking original behavior.) No more spotlight.

At this point? Time has progressed. Things aren't so great between you for various reasons.

You both mutually decided that you should move out. From your other post you plan to try dating while living apart since dating while living together is not panning out. If dating and living apart still doesn't pan out? You plan to break up with her.

Basically if I were you I would watch for more "changing the channel" stuff. You cannot have a real conversation with a person who keeps doing that.

Honestly, I think I just didn't have enough information to even begin this conversation properly, and now it's just getting ridiculous because of that. I would talk to her, but she keeps complaining that every conversation we have leads to conflict, and so I'd rather just drop it. If it comes up again, I can examine it then, and if it doesn't come up again then it probably wasn't a problem in the first place.

Since you are moving out already? Don't revisit the "am I really coming across as patriarchal?" thing. It's an old side trip.

Could keep your focus on the present task at hand -- moving and a time out for both. Then see if you get along any better or if it is still "same old song, different day."

Galagirl
 
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Thanks, Gaia.

The channel-changing is something you brought to my attention a while back, and since then I have noticed it is a constant pattern. Every time I bring up an issue to her, it becomes about me and what I'M doing wrong. Every time.

I have tried to call her on it a few times, but obviously that hasn't gone well.

I have been making a list of things I want to talk about after I've moved out, and that's definitely on there.

It's hard for me to assert myself when I'm trying as much as possible to maintain a harmonious / livable atmosphere at home. Once we each have our own space, the kid gloves can come off.

Normally my fear of abandonment is another barrier to inciting conflict, but I've really got nothing to lose by standing up for myself at this point, and I'm actually excited to see how that goes.
 
If my husband said hot sex was more important to him than friendship or love or any other type of relationship, I would feel (a) insulted that my love, my friendship, our past, our kids were less important than a fleeting physical pleasure, (b) threatened and worried that if I wasn't whoring myself out to him, I would lose my husband, my best friend, my kid's father, my financial security, my partner in life. - And that is the association with patriarchy - the value men place on sex that forces their wives to be their whore.

^ Yes, that above is basically what I was trying to express, albeit less succinctly, in my first response on this thread.

Arius, thanks for returning to this thread and explaining further... although I think this particular issue has been superceded by events that have taken place in your life since + the discussion on your latest thread in Relationship Corner.

This is a bit of an aside, but my understanding of the terms is that what you are describing is "demisexuality," not sapiosexuality. I believe sapiosexuality refers to being turned on by intelligence. Correct me if I'm wrong

You're probably right. I am definitely attracted to intelligence and need that mental connection/stimulation in order to connect with a person enough to want to sleep with them, though I wouldn't say I'm directly "turned on" by intelligence per se. I guess I fall somewhere on the sapiosexual---demisexual spectrum, though I hestitate to label myself "demi" as tends to carry connotations of asexuality, which certainly doesn't apply to me.

Thanks also for further explaining the way you define and view relationship anarchy.

Honestly, I think I just didn't have enough information to even begin this conversation properly, and now it's just getting ridiculous because of that. I would talk to her, but she keeps complaining that every conversation we have leads to conflict, and so I'd rather just drop it.

I mean, I know that (at least for me) sex is only good when the context is right. When the feelings are there, when there's a romantic connection, when there's trust and intimacy. Sex is not just a universally good thing in every context in every moment. So I can imagine a situation in which I would, in that moment, prefer a crispy slice of bacon to sex. Or cuddling and connecting to sex, or whatever.

I guess I was just annoyed that she places such a low value on sex relative to me. And I think she took some things I said to mean that I only value sex, when that's just not the case.

Likewise, I don't think I, or other forum members, had enough information about your particular situation and the issue at hand, to formulate an appropriate response the first time around.

My comments/advice were based on in incomplete picture of both your attitudes to sex/women/relationships/RA, as well as your specific domestic situation.

Having now reviewed your older threads AND your latest, I can see that the situation with your current partner has been devolving for quite sometime.

Frankly, it seems like a case of "she's just not that into you", or else why would she constantly turn every issue around and blame you for it; sidetrack and derail any relationship problem you're trying to solve; not to mention denying you sex while rubbing your face in the fact that she's so thrilled to be "owned" by her Dom/other lover.

How do you know she even still loves you? Does she say the words... show you in some way? You say every attempt to live with her has ended in disaster, and now YOU are moving out, but don't wish to end the relationship. Given everything you've told the forum, I'm not sure there is really anything to hang onto here.
 
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I somehow didn't see Libertine Lover's response until Luna quoted it. This is exactly the kind of analysis and experience I was hoping for, so thank you for sharing. It certainly gives me something to chew on.

Upon reflection, I'm not even sure if I do value sex more than other things, or if it even makes sense to talk about sex as if it's a separate thing from love, romance, friendship. I don't think I would ever leave a loving relationship where I was getting my other needs met just because the sex wasn't there. (Especially as a polyamorous person who can get sex elsewhere.) And I suppose it is somewhat fleeting.

But I do place a high value on it. And I don't think the right answer is to lie about that or try to hide it. Honestly, I really don't know WHAT the right thing is to do.

I also don't know how much of this is caused by patriarchy, a cultural system of power that values masculinity above femininity, and how much of it is just biological fact.

According to evolutionary science, men and women do have different reproductive strategies; and the desire for sex is generally related to that. There are other factors, and of course other sexes and genders, but basically if you have a womb, it makes sense to have a lower sex drive and be choosy about who you sleep with, whereas if you produce sperm and don't have to carry a baby, it makes sense to have a high sex drive and mate with as many womb-bearers as you can.

(I'm sorry for the binary categories, but I don't know how else to talk about this.)

I had a trans friend who started taking testosterone. For the first time in his life, he was suddenly besieged by aggressive sexual fantasies and desires. I was like "welcome to the club!"

The point being that it's not just a patriarchal cultural thing that men tend to place more value on sex while women place less value on that and more on connection (to keep the male around). I think we're hard-wired by evolution to be this way.

I could be wrong about aspects of this, though. Science isn't as objective as it pretends to be.

Ex: I'm familiar with a matriarchal culture in China (basically destroyed by the communists during the Cultural Revolution) in which women were more sexually assertive and the resulting babies were raised by uncles.

And I'm also not sure how various forms of birth control play into this. Women have been using birth control (in the form of herbs and paying attention to cycles, etc) and having herbal abortions across the planet since time immemorial - maybe since the beginning of our species. Which should hypothetically give them more power to have frivolous sex.

I was going to ditch this conversation, but now I'm intrigued about what I can learn from it.

Thoughts?
 
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I want to have as much sex as I possibly can before I grow old and die.

Friendship is less pleasurable for me than sex, and, forced to choose between the two, I'd prefer to have sex. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

Arius

I support your endeavours to the extent that they are about honest and open, mutually aware decisions. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with a lot of people. But, this is a polyamory site that is populated by people that want many loving relationships. I guess, my question is: what do you want from this community? If you want me to tell you that there is nothing wrong with (honestly and openly) pursuing a lot of sexual partners, then you have my blessing.

But, it's not my life choice and it's not close to the emotional landscape that I operate in.

Sentinel
 
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