Duggar Schadenfreude

What Evie said. Also the Quiverful movement does not give women any choice in the roles they play in life and relationships. They are only to be wives and mothers, be dependent and subservient to all men but especially their husband, and to have as many children as they physically can. If they had the power, they would force all women and men to live in this way. It's their vision of how society should be, mandated by their understanding of God's will.

I wouldn't be arrogant enough to assume that all women, given the choice, would refuse to be part of this sort of lifestyle. Many religions, or rather, subsets of the major religions, feel the same about child bearing. It's problematic when people would force everyone to live according to their own standards, but that goes for many people who cannot comprehend why people would make a different choice to them if they were privy to the same information. Even people who I would describe as left-winged liberals and have views that align with mine.

There are millions of abusers and abused people.
 
I wouldn't be arrogant enough to assume that all women, given the choice, would refuse to be part of this sort of lifestyle. Many religions, or rather, subsets of the major religions, feel the same about child bearing. It's problematic when people would force everyone to live according to their own standards, but that goes for many people who cannot comprehend why people would make a different choice to them if they were privy to the same information.

The funny thing is, you assume girls raised in this cult are given a "choice" to be valued for merely their uteruses and ability to cook, or force their daughters to cook, gigantic meals for the family 3 times a day, and do enormous load of laundry, only to be rewarded with reading the cult's interpretation of the Bible constantly reminding them of their inferiority to men.

Even the Amish allow their teens to have Rumspringa. Quiverfull girls and boys are not allowed access to mainstream culture at all, no movies, no TV, no internet, no books except those chosen by the cult's curriculum of ATI.

Yes, every mom and dad make choices for their children, but this kind of isolation and repression leads to just the kind of secret-keeping and stealth that Josh practiced. Molesting FOUR of his sisters, and one friend! Pretending he'd "reformed," telling his fiancee he had gotten past this abusive behavior for 2 years before marriage, and keeping up the facade for 6 and a half years until he was outed by the media.

Also, is it really healthy for the 19 Duggar kids to have been raised before the cameras, on their fame whore parents' own show and various other shows? They are trained, again, like dogs, to plaster strained smiles on their faces from toddlerhood, to keep up this facade over any true feelings of discontent or desire for privacy they have, with the threat of a beating with a rod hanging over them if they disobey. I find that horrific.

And now all the kids are catching this need for self-exploitation. One of the sisters was pregnant when Josh's first scandal was revealed, and pissed off her sister got to give birth on camera and have a whole episode focused on her, and now she wouldn't have that chance! sigh...

There are millions of abusers and abused people.

And your point? We shouldn't express an opinion of this particular family's form of abuse at all?

This cult has the outmoded viewpoint that men's sex drives are rampant and unbridled. I read an excerpt from Growing Up Duggar, written by several of the sisters, that when the family is out in public, the females in the family call out a code word: Nike! to remind their own father and their brothers to look at their own shoes when an "immodestly" dressed woman walks by. The girls are expected to reign in their own father's lust!

The women are also NEVER allowed to say no to their husbands when he wants sex from them. They do not have control over their own bodies. The only time Michelle Duggar and her husband JimBob abstain from sex is when they believe the Bible tells them to, for 80 days after the birth of a daughter, and 40 days after the birth of a son, and when she is menstruating and unclean. It's never just because Michelle isn't in the mood, or sick, or exhausted, as she and all Quiverfull women must so often be, overworked and usually pregnant as they are. Nope, lie down and spread 'em honey, the Man has a hard-on and can NOT be refused.

Nice for the men!
 
Last edited:
The funny thing is, you assume girls raised in this cult are given a "choice" to be valued for merely their uteruses and ability to cook, or force their daughters to cook, gigantic meals for the family 3 times a day, and do enormous load of laundry, only to be rewarded with reading the cult's interpretation of the Bible constantly reminding them of their inferiority to men.

Even the Amish allow their teens to have Rumspringa. Quiverfull girls and boys are not allowed access to mainstream culture at all, no movies, no TV, no internet, no books except those chosen by the cult's curriculum of ATI.

Yes, every mom and dad make choices for their children, but this kind of isolation and repression leads to just the kind of secret-keeping and stealth that Josh practiced. Molesting FOUR of his sisters, and one friend! Pretending he'd "reformed," telling his fiancee he had gotten past this abusive behavior for 2 years before marriage, and keeping up the facade for 6 and a half years until he was outed by the media.

Also, is it really healthy for the 19 Duggar kids to have been raised before the cameras, on their fame whore parents' own show and various other shows? They are trained, again, like dogs, to plaster strained smiles on their faces from toddlerhood, to keep up this facade over any true feelings of discontent or desire for privacy they have, with the threat of a beating with a rod hanging over them if they disobey. I find that horrific.

And now all the kids are catching this need for self-exploitation. One of the sisters was pregnant when Josh's first scandal was revealed, and pissed off her sister got to give birth on camera and have a whole episode focused on her, and now she wouldn't have that chance! sigh...



And your point? We shouldn't express an opinion of this particular family's form of abuse at all?

This cult has the outmoded viewpoint that men's sex drives are rampant and unbridled. I read an excerpt from Growing Up Duggar, written by several of the sisters, that when the family is out in public, the females in the family call out a code word: Nike! to remind their own father and their brothers to look at their own shoes when an "immodestly" dressed woman walks by. The girls are expected to reign in their own father's lust!

The women are also NEVER allowed to say no to their husbands when he wants sex from them. They do not have control over their own bodies. The only time Michelle Duggar and her husband JimBob abstain from sex is when they believe the Bible tells them to, for 80 days after the birth of a daughter, and 40 days after the birth of a son, and when she is menstruating and unclean. It's never just because Michelle isn't in the mood, or sick, or exhausted, as she and all Quiverfull women must so often be, overworked and usually pregnant as they are. Nope, lie down and spread 'em honey, the Man has a hard-on and can NOT be refused.

Nice for the men!

I'm not assuming they are given a choice, I pretty much know they aren't. What I am saying is that I don't make the assumption that they (or anyone else) wouldn't make that choice if they were privy to the same type of information as I am.

The lifestyle you describe regarding conjugal roles isn't all that different to the one some people in power exchange relationships lead so I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to live that way. I know people who cannot refuse sex from their partners as part of their dynamic. Ever heard of Goreans? It's not for me but I don't think it's terrible.

Also, Pakistani culture has many of those elements. Sure, in my anarchist twenties I thought it was all about oppression and I need to free these women, but actually, many Pakistani women are reasonably educated and actively choose to sustain elements of their culture in regards to womanhood. It's part of their value system. Who am I to say that my atheist, liberal value system is superior to theirs? I've seen the results of "help" from the "civilized folk" that actually results in discord and unhappiness for all.

As for the horror of children growing up on screen etc, there are hundreds of similar shows as well as the most trashy reality shows one could ever conceive. I do not see why these children are any more thread-worthy than Honey Boo Boo Child, for example, other than the fact that they are a religious family.

Of course, the details you keep on sharing about this case are horrific. But I fail to see why it's any more horrific than any other case. I don't see using God as a ruse to abuse people is worse than using your fame.
 
This thread is reminding me of a heated discussion I had about ten years ago with a pagan woman. She was staunchly anti-Abrahamic religion, especially the Amish for some reason. She felt they sheltered their children. This lady lived in a very remote area of the US where she home schooled her three children. All born on the commune, of course. There was no TV, no internet, although there were a good few people around who all shared the same sort of values. The only books that were around were selected by the adults, of course. That's how it works in most families. She couldn't see how her children were just as sheltered as Amish children. The only thing she focused on is how damaging it is to push your [religious] beliefs on your children.
 
I'm not assuming they are given a choice, I pretty much know they aren't. What I am saying is that I don't make the assumption that they (or anyone else) wouldn't make that choice if they were privy to the same type of information as I am.

The lifestyle you describe regarding conjugal roles isn't all that different to the one some people in power exchange relationships lead so I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to live that way. I know people who cannot refuse sex from their partners as part of their dynamic. Ever heard of Goreans? It's not for me but I don't think it's terrible.

Sure, there are women who are convinced men ARE their superiors. There are submissive men who believe women are superior to them. There are kinky people who think blacks are superior beings to whites and deserve outright worship.

Some people like to have sex with their animals or eat their partner's poo. And so on... We could name a million other things to talk about in regards to relationships.

This thread isn't about kinky, sexual, consenting adults. It's about brainwashed cult members, and especially pertains to the subjugation of women, and the secret keeping necessary for children raised this way who have normal sexual desires they do not understand and must repress, causing criminal perversion and harm to others without their consent.
Also, Pakistani culture has many of those elements. Sure, in my anarchist twenties I thought it was all about oppression and I need to free these women, but actually, many Pakistani women are reasonably educated and actively choose to sustain elements of their culture in regards to womanhood. It's part of their value system.


If you'd like to make a list of all cultures where women are abused, feel free to start another thread. Why this focus on "Well, the Duggars are no worse than XYZ?" This thread is about the Duggars. In earlier years, I have made threads on the FLDS and their tendency to marry multiple child wives, when that shit was in the media. Now, Josh Duggar is involved in 2 sex scandals, and I started a thread about him. If you don't like it, please stop reading the thread. I feel persecuted by you, criticizing my right to start a thread on a topic of interest to me, for goodness sake.


Of course, the details you keep on sharing about this case are horrific. But I fail to see why it's any more horrific than any other case.

It was my choice to open the topic for discussion. If you find that boring or pointless, please stop commenting on the thread. Thanks.
 
The difference between this and power exchange is that in power exchange, at some point, the one giving up their power *has* given consent. They have explicitly chosen to be part of that life. And that means they also had the option *not* to be.

The women and girls in the Quiverfull movement aren't given options. They're taught from the earliest possible age that their ONLY purpose in existing is to serve the men--fathers and brothers until the girl is married, and then their husband--and to reproduce. It isn't a "here's this choice of lifestyle, do you want to live it." It's "this is why God put you here, and to do anything else would be counter to God's will, so you must do it." It's brainwashing, plain and simple.

The girls Josh molested weren't told that Josh had "made a mistake." They were told that THEY were responsible because men and boys are lustful beings, and therefore the girls must have somehow been immodest enough to rouse Josh's lust. The girls he molested included a sister who was then five. On another forum, someone linked to a publication by the particular sect the Duggars belong to, in which it said that female victims of sexual abuse are responsible for having been molested, because it's the females' job to keep the men from being lustful, instead of the males' job to control their frigging dicks.
 
The reason I commented is because I wanted to express my absolute horror at someone confessing to enjoying knowing these things happened. Clearly, other people think it's entirely normal to feel that way. Maybe I'm just sensitive...
 
The difference between this and power exchange is that in power exchange, at some point, the one giving up their power *has* given consent. They have explicitly chosen to be part of that life. And that means they also had the option *not* to be.

The women and girls in the Quiverfull movement aren't given options. They're taught from the earliest possible age that their ONLY purpose in existing is to serve the men--fathers and brothers until the girl is married, and then their husband--and to reproduce. It isn't a "here's this choice of lifestyle, do you want to live it." It's "this is why God put you here, and to do anything else would be counter to God's will, so you must do it." It's brainwashing, plain and simple.

The girls Josh molested weren't told that Josh had "made a mistake." They were told that THEY were responsible because men and boys are lustful beings, and therefore the girls must have somehow been immodest enough to rouse Josh's lust. The girls he molested included a sister who was then five. On another forum, someone linked to a publication by the particular sect the Duggars belong to, in which it said that female victims of sexual abuse are responsible for having been molested, because it's the females' job to keep the men from being lustful, instead of the males' job to control their frigging dicks.

Exactly, KC! I have found more info from around the time the molestations actually occurred, which seems reliable, having come from members of the Duggar's own cult. According to what I read, Josh, at 14 was betrothed to a girl, whose father was running for office. When he lost his race, he assumed it was because of "sin in the camp," a ridiculously archaic idea, but we will let it stand.

This girl and her sisters were in trouble for wearing shirts that were too tight and not wearing bras that bound and flattened their breasts. It was then revealed that Josh had been "tempted" into molesting her by her immodesty *rolleyes* (as well as his own 5 year old sister, who he may have molested while reading a book to her (!) ).

Of course, perverted Christianity also hurts boys. Josh was made to believe an adult friend of the family lost his political campaign because of his pedophilia. 1) Josh commits crime of molesting girls (and it's their own fault for just being girls 2) Josh, still legally a child, is blamed for an adult man losing a political race-- because of some superstitious mumbo jumbo about sin in the camp.

All the children are harmed by this cult. Josh never was prosecuted, nor did he receive counseling, except for a stern talking to by a cop, who is himself now serving 56 years in jail for possession of child pornography. It's so sickening.

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-web-has-known-about-josh-duggar-for-years-when-did-1706258269
 
Um, who the hell are you to decide what "breeding practices" are disgusting or not? If you truly believe in women having ownership of their bodies, it's NONE OF YOUR business whether a woman has no kids or fifty kids. You are completely obsessed with this and it's weird, creepy and a little sick to be honest. Leave these people alone.

If I may partly speak for Magdlyn, it's because we don't believe these women don't actually truly have ownership of their bodies.

How in the world do some of you come to believe that you KNOW the minds of all these women? How do you come to be so sure that no woman could possibly, ever, want to have a large family? You 'don't believe' it, therefore it couldn't possibly be? Do you have friends among any of these groups? Have you ever actually gotten to know these people and given them the benefit of the doubt and listened--as we here wish to be listened to--or is it okay to simply assume, because you 'believe,' that they couldn't possibly 'have ownership of their bodies?'
 
Any and all "movements" open themselves up to scrutiny and criticism. All of them.

I'm sure there are some women who are happy and content in the Quiverfull movement. However...

One of their representative websites is here:
http://www.quiverfull.com/birthcontrol.php

It's full of propaganda and bad science (the "Dangers of Vasectomy" link is just full of WTF-ness), and CERTAINLY puts them in the spotlight when it comes to misinformation and criticism.

Now, I understand that Cracked writing is meant to be in an entertaining, sensationalistic style, but here's an article from someone who left the movement: http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...om-my-christian-fundamentalist-childhood.html (take it with a grain of salt if you like)

Another link explaining Quiverfull: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/what-is-quiverfull/

I think one of the MAJOR upsets here is what was published as the Duggars' own sexual abuse homeschool curriculum: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/what-did-josh-duggars-counseling-look-like.html

So yes, I'm sure there are people who are happy and content in this movement, but there are also many of us who believe that their teachings are harmful, especially to young girls living in this environment. Teaching girls that their actions and dress may have led to abuse, and to value their chastity among all else leads to things like Elizabeth Smart's decision to NOT run from her captors because she was "unclean" and therefore, worthless.

This type of thing opens them and other extreme religious groups to criticism, and yes, delight in their downfall. While they are free to choose how to raise their children, they should NOT be making designs on the political process in order to dictate how my future grandchildren will be raised, what kind of schools/degree programs they can enter, etc.
 
Any and all "movements" open themselves up to scrutiny and criticism. All of them.

....

It's full of propaganda and bad science....

.... here's an article from someone who left the movement:


....So yes, I'm sure there are people who are happy and content in this movement, but there are also many of us who believe that their teachings are harmful, ....

.... While they are free to choose how to raise their children, they should NOT be making designs on the political process in order to dictate how my future grandchildren will be raised, what kind of schools/degree programs they can enter, etc.

The point I'm getting at is that your exact same post, almost word for word (but the specific group referred to) can be found on a thousand conservative and/or religious sites.

They, too, believe that others' teachings are propaganda and bad science, and harmful.

They, too, can provide hundreds of links from those who left the movement, or group--those who left homosexuality, those who left atheism, those who left working for Planned Parenthood, those who left poly, those who left....any number of things.

Would you be okay with someone of a different belief or political view saying that you are free to raise your children as you like, but you should not be making designs on the political process?

This is a free country; it is a democracy (or republic if you like) in which we all have the right, and some would even say the responsibility, to voice our beliefs, in the political arena, about what is best for this country, for its children, for its future.

The Duggas have as much right as anyone to be part of the political system. And sad to say, there are those in every movement, every faith or lack of faith, every part of the political spectrum who have behaved less than admirably toward others.

I also see self righteousness from some members of each of these groups. And I see people among each of these groups who are loving, giving, kind, and respectful of others regardless of difference of opinion.

The point being, it's disturbing to see a suggestion that people of some groups have no right to be part of the political process. It's disturbing to see hate piled on someone because they're Christian, just as it is disturbing to see hate piled on someone because they're poly or gay. Hate is hate. Judgment is judgment.
 
Yeah, I recognized the weakness of posting those links, but wanted to illustrate that the movement encompasses a lot more than having a large family. Their own sites illustrate it pretty well.

I hear what you're saying about the political process, but when religious groups are allowed to dictate policy, where is the line between church and state drawn? Where does it cross the line into becoming a state-sponsored religion?

And truly, there really is bad science out there. When you eschew the preponderance of the studies out there in order to find ONE from 1980 that says vasectomies are bad, then yes, I'm calling that out as misinformation. Multiple hypotheses for things we haven't explained yet is fine, and wonderful, and part of the scientific process. Calling the scientific method into question is not.

Meh... I'm moving too far into a constitutional debate, methinks, which isn't the point of this topic. If they (churches, not the Duggars) want to drive politics, let 'em pay taxes like the rest of us.
 
Last edited:
I found the following on Facebook:

"I know everybody is laughing about this Josh Duggar story. Oh, a *Duggar* on Ashley Madison, it's so rich! I wish more people would talk about Anna. I normally keep things light on Facebook, but let's talk about Anna. Let me tell you: Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience (or life experience, for that matter) and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle.

Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing she could do, was to be chaste and proper, a devout wife, and a mother. Anna Duggar did that!

Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get-go and this is what she got in reward -- a husband who she found out, in the span of six months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible. While she was fulfilling her 'duty' of providing him with four children and raising them. She lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and Godly and in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. 'Be this,' they told her. She was. It wasn't enough.

What is Anna Duggar supposed to do? She can't divorce because the religious environment she was brought up would blame her and ostracize her for it. Even if she would risk that, she has no education and no work experience to fall back on, so how does she support her kids? From where could she summon the ability to turn her back on everything she ever held to be sacred and safe? Her beliefs, the very thing she would turn to for comfort in this kind of crisis, are the *very reason* she is in this predicament in the first place. How can she reconcile this? Her parents have utterly, utterly failed her. Think of this: somewhere, Anna Duggar is sitting in prayer, praying not for the strength to get out and stand on her own, but for the strength to stand by this man she is unfortunately married to. To lower herself so that he may rise up on her back.

As a mother of daughters, this makes me ill. Parents, *we must do better by our daughters.* Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves. They aren't given it. They assume it and take it. But you have to teach them to do it, that they can do it. We *have* to teach our daughters that they are not beholden to men like this. That they don't have to marry a man their father deems 'acceptable' and then stay married to that man long, long after he proved himself *unacceptable.*

Educate them. Empower them. Give them the tools they need to survive, on their own if they must.

Josh Duggar should be cowering in fear of Anna Duggar right now. Cowering. He isn't, but he should be. He should be quaking in fear that the house might fall down around them if he's in the same room as she. Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must. To say 'I don't deserve this, and my children don't deserve this.' I wish someone had ever, just once, told Anna she was capable of this. That she knew she is. As for my girls, I'll raise them to think they breathe fire."

There is some question as to whether the Duggars merit as much leeway as anyone else ...
 
This movement, and others like it, like FLDS, put women down. As a feminist, it disgusts me. Not only does it hold women back from a complete high school degree, much less college, it is rampant with sexual abuse.

Not just Josh Duggar's sisters and one of their friends. The cop he was supposedly counseled by after his crime was confessed, was a friend of the family and is now serving 2 sentences, totalling 58 years, for possession of child pornography.

The founder of the Duggar's cult was ousted by the cult itself when 34 female members charged him with sexual harassment!

34 women. Obviously this cult is an umbrella for the sexual abuse of minors and women. Just as the Catholic church covered up all the sexual abuse of minors, and basically jailed women on work farms for their "sexual sins" such as sitting on a boy's lap in a car, or going to the movies unchaperoned, or becoming pregnant after being raped, all until quite recently.

That isn't to say the entire Catholic Church is bad, or that all Catholics should be hated. But I am going to call out sexual abuse of those that have no power in any institution, religious or not.

Anytime women are kept isolated, uneducated and pregnant, with no resources for help except the very church that condones their abuse, they are more likely to be abused. That shouldn't be a controversial fact.

The rules in this cult are made to seem as though they protect women from men's lusts, by forcing them to wear certain clothes, to act a certain way, but unfortunately it is just making them more vulnerable to rape instead. And to blame themselves for the rapes when they inevitably happen. And there are little to no consequences for their rapists/abusers, who then go on to do it again, as did Josh. The Duggars and their supporters are acting oh so surprised that this happened, Josh molesting minors, and blithely cheating on his pregnant wife, but the whole system is set up to cause this to happen. I am sure Josh's acts are just the tip of the iceberg.
 
I resent the assumption that I can't understand why some women would knowingly and consciously choose to live in such a situation. I do understand. It provides meaning, community, structure and rules to live by. That is very appealing. They offer something most people really want. Purpose and a community. I understand why it is attractive. And I don't begrudge adult women who want to be Quiverful that opportunity. I'm not interested in banning them or restricting their speech.

There is a saying that I never thought I would use on this forum. 'Don't be so open-minded your brains fall out.' I am criticizing these people, their way of life and their theology/ideology. I will never stop pointing out whenever I can how very dangerous this theology is. It harms women directly and harms men in just as devastating if more subtle ways. It would be incredibly destructive if it ever got power over more than their families. (And that's bad enough.) Let me remind folks that these fringe groups have impacts larger than their numbers since the Republican party has become the party of the Christian radical right.

Talking about the serious flaws in this theology and how it impacts real people is not hate. I don't hate these people. I fear what would happen to me and my loved ones if they ever got real power but I don't hate them. I want people to take them seriously and work to prevent their ideas from gaining strength. Once again, I am criticizing - not hating. If people can't tell the difference between hate and criticism, well, honestly, that's fucking stupid.
 
One good reason for rejoicing over the Duggar scandal is that it's a scandal that might help clue more people into the fact that the Duggars' belief system is a social hazard.
 
F***ing Hypocrite

I honestly didn't really mind the show so much. It kind of creeped me out with the J names and all the girls stuck in dresses, but they seemed happy with it. It's sad that he went after his sisters and another teenager.

What is probably more disgusting is that his family was trying to hide this and he is a fucking hypocrite. He goes on about family morals and not wanting homosexuality to be legalized. But he goes and signs up and pays for a website for cheating. Two accounts!

At the same time, I am thinking good riddance, but I am still sad for those who suffered from him and really didn't get much justice out of it until later.
 
One good reason for rejoicing over the Duggar scandal is that it's a scandal that might help clue more people into the fact that the Duggars' belief system is a social hazard.

In my opinion, any belief system that refuses to embrace individuality is a social hazard and it's something that I see as much in liberal atheist circles as I did in Christianity.
 
In my opinion, any belief system that refuses to embrace individuality is a social hazard and it's something that I see as much in liberal atheist circles as I did in Christianity.

I do see what you're driving at, MM. Some "progressives" are the worst hypocritical offenders. My husband is a political conservative and I've come to see the reasons for and the value in his perspective. So many in my Seattle-based lefty circle were dumbfounded when we married, but as they came to know him personally, they appreciated him. I would never discount millions of people (conservatives) because "they" are this, that or the other. That is as bigoted as bigotry gets. Dismissing an entire group (religion, political party, race) and not taking people as individuals is the very definition of bigotry.
 
Back
Top