FWB experiment ripping marriage apart

JustBob

New member
Feel like things are hurtling out of control so here goes - time to ask for some thoughts.

Married 7 years and we have a young son.

Had been swinging, initially as a couple only, then with singles in 3-sums and then playing with those singles separately - but infrequently, maybe once or twice a year!

Drama ensued - long story - and the better half decided that she didn't want to swing any more and that she liked the idea of having a single, FWB, develop a friendship etc. not Poly I know.

I agreed with this and we agreed a basic set of ground rules - basically those of safety, balance and the right for either of us to say stop. After all, she had decided to stop swinging and I had accepted that decision which affected both of us.

One year on, we've argued more than at any other time. She likes to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants to - any request from me for consideration is met with anger that I'm just trying to control her freedom. To the point that she threatens our marriage if I even dare to suggest that I'm not comfortable with the ongoing situation.

It's not a she's dating, I'm not situation. It's not a jealousy situation. It's not an insecurity situation.

She doesn't accept my right to have feelings that differ from her new, post-swinging drama, all zen about everything attitude. Her extra-marital relationship seems to be way more important to her than any relationship I've had or see having. If we continue it probably threatens our marriage (despite her FWB being married and not truly poly either) and if I even consider saying stop then that threatens our marriage too.

So, are we doomed? How can I become (more) comfortable if she doesn't respect my right to stop (or even talk about it). She wanted the same consideration before this started and got it - am I wrong to expect the same consideration?

Sorry about the wall of text

Bob
 
So what is the situation exactly? All I'm getting from this is that you want to tell her to stop for the sake of being able to tell her to stop. There must be more to it. Is the situation she is in with the other partner unsafe or unhealthy for her?
 
I guess the "situation" is that she's continually moving the goal posts, saying one thing and then, when it suits her, doing another. No discussion, no compromise, no rights for me to say "hang on". She's now in an "anything goes" mindset - she wants complete open freedom and I'm nowhere near being comfortable with that for myself.

She wants control of what we do but doesn't see it that way. My lack of comfort is being perceived as me wanting control by her. Yes, we're probably both trying to exercise control.

But where I'm saying "help me get to where you are", she's saying "I'm already there why aren't you?"

For me, if she was to say stop, then I'd stop tomorrow. For her, she'd choose to "stop" the marriage.

What started as a FWB non-monogamous "experiment" has turned into a "I want to be poly/open and tough if you don't" absolute state for her.

Is that still too "vague"?
 
So I take it her relationship has moved beyond being just a FWB thing. It is impossible to control how someone else will feel about someone they are in a relationship with. It's been my experience that rules limiting the type of relationship a partner has do not work out well. I suppose it might work for others though. Have the two of you considered couples counseling?

This may sound harsh, but if she is unwilling to work with you, it is you who has to decide if you can live with that or move on.
 
At this point you can't control her anymore. She doesn't want your permission to do what she wants. I agree you can either except that the dynamic has changed between you two and work on your own emotions regarding the change or you can dissolve your relationship with her. You aren't her boss and even though she initially agreed that you can shut down her fwb you really can't. She has a relationship with this other person and it's solely up to him and her if they part ways. It sounds to me like you view your wife as a possession and you need to get that out of your head
 
It sounds to me like you view your wife as a possession and you need to get that out of your head

100% not the case - but an interesting perspective.

So her decision to not want to swing anymore and do the FWB thing - her choice imposed on me - is different in some way to my wanting to be comfortable and happy too in whatever it is we do?

It's nice to be able to stereotype, but it isn't always a story of a guy treating his wife as a possession and controlling her. Sometimes it's about striving to find an acceptable balance and compromise in life and in relationships.

It is not unreasonable for me to desire the same freedom in my extra-marital relationship? She can shut me down at anytime and while she claims I'm more likely to if I become unhappy or uncomfortable, she is the only one to ever exercise that veto. Is open/poly supposed to be based upon mutual agreement or on one party doing whatever they want? If she wanted absolute freedom why get married in the first place?

As I said, this isn't a jealousy or insecurity thing, I imply want the same rights in our responsibility as she has and exercises. I dont stop her from doing anything.

Thanks though.
 
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From your post it sounds like you are upset that she's not allowing you to control her other relationship. You want her to stop because you arbitrarily want her to. Sounds like she's becoming poly when you want her to be a swinger.
 
From your post it sounds like you are upset that she's not allowing you to control her other relationship. You want her to stop because you arbitrarily want her to. Sounds like she's becoming poly when you want her to be a swinger.

Not really, I want her to simply acknowledge that I have a right to be comfortable and happy too. She has that right, apparently I don't. And we'd agreed to be open not poly.

It's the opposite of what you said. She has and has exercised her right to control my other relationship. However, she denies me even having the same rights - even though I've never exercised them.

If she wants to be poly, then shouldn't we be talking about the implications of that for all of us or as a woman does she have the right to arbitrarily make that decision?

I guess as a person she has that right, but likewise I have a right to say I don't want that. That then would be the end of our marriage.
 
Not really, I want her to simply acknowledge that I have a right to be comfortable and happy too.

What would make you comfortable and happy? She has a bf, do you have a gf? Would you like to see more of your gf? Would you like to give yourself permission to love your gf and build a real relationship?

Would you like your wife to see her bf less? How often is she seeing him? Do you feel neglected? Has the romance gone out of your life with your wife? Do you 2 have good sex? Go on dates and vacations together?

She has that right, apparently I don't.

Claim your rights as she has claimed hers. She doesn't own you, nor do you own her. You are both autonomous beings. If the marriage is important to both of you, use "I statements" to express feelings and desires and suggest strategies for getting your needs met.

And we'd agreed to be open not poly.

People change in long term relationships. Sometimes goals change. Sometimes both partners can adapt to the changes. Sometimes not, and then you split.
It's the opposite of what you said. She has and has exercised her right to control my other relationship. However, she denies me even having the same rights - even though I've never exercised them.

What's all this about either of your rights to control each other? How about you let go of that idea, and see what happens.
If she wants to be poly, then shouldn't we be talking about the implications of that for all of us or as a woman does she have the right to arbitrarily make that decision?

I guess as a person she has that right, but likewise I have a right to say I don't want that. That then would be the end of our marriage.

Yes, if it comes to that. But you might seek marital counseling with a poly friendly therapist to come to some agreement that makes you both happy. And in poly, it's common for people to revisit plans from time to time and see if it's still working for everyone.

Open honest and respectful communication is crucial (no sarcasm, cursing or name-calling or throwing things). Do you both have the skills for that?
 
...the better half decided that she didn't want to swing any more and that she liked the idea of having a single, FWB, develop a friendship etc. not Poly I know......her FWB being married and not truly poly either....

There's no such thing as "true poly" other than attachments are OK and consent of all parties is given. "True poly" does not mean that everyone is involved with everyone. I get the sense that you're starting from a basic disappointment that your wife "left you behind" and broke some sort of imagined poly rule, when in fact, there are many ways to do poly. A married person having an emotionally attached one-on-one relationship with another person certainly falls under "poly" as long as everyone consents.
 
21066

Thankyou for taking the time to reply.

What would make you comfortable and happy? She has a bf, do you have a gf? Would you like to see more of your gf? Would you like to give yourself permission to love your gf and build a real relationship?

Yes I have a gf. no I don't need to see them more, the relationship is good but it is where we both want it to be. We set it up within the boundaries of what me and my wife originally agreed - my gf wasn't non-monogamous at the start and is finding her way in a poly/open lifestyle.

Would you like your wife to see her bf less? How often is she seeing him? Do you feel neglected? Has the romance gone out of your life with your wife? Do you 2 have good sex? Go on dates and vacations together?

Yes we have good sex, but according to her we speak 2 different love languages. Mine is physical/romantic/touchy feely, her's is doing things for me like ironing a shirt or cooking dinner. Often I do feel neglected, like I don't matter as much as her other relationship(s) do.

She doesn't understand this - she thinks that I should assume/just know that she loves me.

Claim your rights as she has claimed hers. She doesn't own you, nor do you own her. You are both autonomous beings. If the marriage is important to both of you, use "I statements" to express feelings and desires and suggest strategies for getting your needs met.

That's my fear, that our marriage is not as important to her as it is to me.

People change in long term relationships. Sometimes goals change. Sometimes both partners can adapt to the changes. Sometimes not, and then you split.

I adapted to her desire to change - she is totally unwilling to even acknowledge that I have any say so - that if I even suggest that I have a desire to change, she threatens our marriage claiming that my desire to change would be me controlling her.

What's all this about either of your rights to control each other? How about you let go of that idea, and see what happens.

It's the word she uses when I express my feelings. When she expresses her's that's different.

Yes, if it comes to that. But you might seek marital counseling with a poly friendly therapist to come to some agreement that makes you both happy. And in poly, it's common for people to revisit plans from time to time and see if it's still working for everyone.

Open honest and respectful communication is crucial (no sarcasm, cursing or name-calling or throwing things). Do you both have the skills for that?

It always gets dragged back to me being accused of trying to control her. It's been 12 months of fighting. We established the boundaries together when we started - but she's constantly changing them to suit her.

If I take the same approach then we inevitably wind up just "doing our own thing" without any respect, courtesy or consideration of the other. If I do that then we're living separate lives.
 
I get the sense that you're starting from a basic disappointment that your wife "left you behind" and broke some sort of imagined poly rule, when in fact, there are many ways to do poly.

If changing things up to suit herself without any discussion and without giving me the same "right" is breaking "some sort of imagined poly rule" then yes, I guess that's correct.

Shouldn't she extend the same freedom to me?

Shouldn't she discuss things to ensure that we're both comfortable and on the same page?

She's the only one who has exerted control - is that ok coz she's a woman?
 
Yes, you are entitled to any freedoms she has. I think a discussion where you tell her "because agreements that we made are no longer being honored then I think we need to abolish the agreements and renegotiate terms that are fair for both.

My husband likes having muhave ltiple casual sexual partners but I don't, I can't do casual. I want very close entangled relationships. It works out well that we both get what we want even though it's not "equal". He fucks whoever he wants and i have a boyfriend. we have very few boundaries between us
 
If changing things up to suit herself without any discussion and without giving me the same "right" is breaking "some sort of imagined poly rule" then yes, I guess that's correct.

Shouldn't she extend the same freedom to me?

Shouldn't she discuss things to ensure that we're both comfortable and on the same page?

She's the only one who has exerted control - is that ok coz she's a woman?

All of these concerns are different than your concern in your OP that her preferring a close FWB is not "true poly" and that a married person can't have "true poly" with a single person. My only point is that "poly" is not a configuration, but a relationship perspective. You've gotten some great responses about improving open communication, which is, of course, the bedrock of poly.
 
Drama ensued - long story - and the better half decided that she didn't want to swing any more


You are feeling angry and perhaps somewhat abandoned by your wife.

I am not quite clear on what happened, though your frustration indicates that agreements the two of you had have been breached. So I have some questions to clarify.

Am I right in thinking that whatever went down in the drama is part of what is fueling your disappointment and anger?

You two had an agreement to occasionally swing and that agreement evolved to swinging each on your own. Did the individual swinging turn into more of a steady Friends with Benefits relationship without that being discussed? For which one of you?

Then your wife decided that swinging was no longer her thing and without her you can not swing on your own? Or did she say she could not handle you swinging without her?

At her request the two of you made a new agreement in which you gave up swinging, which you enjoyed. In exchange she agreed that if the new relationship style did not suit you then you both would give up whatever relationships you had developed and renegotiate.

Her new relationship has become more serious, or is taking more of her time and attention than you feel was covered by your agreement? When you tell her you are very uncomfortable she seems to say "That is your problem not mine". Does her attitude reflect something that went down in the drama that ended swinging? Is this a new attitude toward your relationship?

So is this more of a "She breaking our agreement" situation or a "My emotional boundaries have been broken and she is not giving me a chance to see if I can move them comfortably" situation?

It seems to you that she is pretty clearly stating that "This is the new agreement I am willing to have. Take it or leave it" You do not want to end your marriage by leaving it and are upset that she will neither keep the previous agreement nor negotiate a new one.

I have seen any number of posts from people who have had very similar agreements collapse because one of the parties has discovered that giving someone arbitrary veto power over their relationships doesn't work. Including situations like yours wherein someone exercises veto and then later discovers how painful that is when the veto is exercised on them.

Sorry for so many questions.

Leetah
 
You are feeling angry and perhaps somewhat abandoned by your wife.

I am not quite clear on what happened, though your frustration indicates that agreements the two of you had have been breached. So I have some questions to clarify.

Am I right in thinking that whatever went down in the drama is part of what is fueling your disappointment and anger?

No, the drama was, in her own admission, down to her - but she keeps stating that it was the past and that I can't bring it up.

You two had an agreement to occasionally swing and that agreement evolved to swinging each on your own. Did the individual swinging turn into more of a steady Friends with Benefits relationship without that being discussed? For which one of you?

It was never really steady FWBs and it was discussed. It didn't turn into a FWB thing, we played with people either as a 4, 3 or as 2s. i.e. she went out on her own with a guy we also played with in other "combinations".

Then your wife decided that swinging was no longer her thing and without her you can not swing on your own? Or did she say she could not handle you swinging without her?

Correct, me swinging "alone" wasn't an option for her - her demand was that we both do something different, the FWB thing.

At her request the two of you made a new agreement in which you gave up swinging, which you enjoyed. In exchange she agreed that if the new relationship style did not suit you then you both would give up whatever relationships you had developed and renegotiate.

yes.

Her new relationship has become more serious, or is taking more of her time and attention than you feel was covered by your agreement? When you tell her you are very uncomfortable she seems to say "That is your problem not mine". Does her attitude reflect something that went down in the drama that ended swinging? Is this a new attitude toward your relationship?

Her other relationship isn't any more serious or taking more of her time. I don't have a problem with the nature of her other relationship. But she's now basically saying that she wants to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants (remember we also have a kid). Yes, it's a new attitude, but she says "you should've always know that I was like this".

So is this more of a "She breaking our agreement" situation or a "My emotional boundaries have been broken and she is not giving me a chance to see if I can move them comfortably" situation?

Both. She breaks the agreement without discussion or communication and thinks that's ok. If I then communicate any unhappiness at that, I'm in the wrong.

It seems to you that she is pretty clearly stating that "This is the new agreement I am willing to have. Take it or leave it" You do not want to end your marriage by leaving it and are upset that she will neither keep the previous agreement nor negotiate a new one.

Pretty much. I feel like I'm being backed into a corner. Take it or leave it is exactly how I feel right now. Accept what she wants absolutely or explain my feelings and attempt to find a compromise that she isn't willing to accept.

I have seen any number of posts from people who have had very similar agreements collapse because one of the parties has discovered that giving someone arbitrary veto power over their relationships doesn't work. Including situations like yours wherein someone exercises veto and then later discovers how painful that is when the veto is exercised on them.

Sorry for so many questions.

That sums it up very well. It was OK when she exercised a veto. It seems like I don't have the right to even think about it even if I wanted to. If she acknowledged my feelings (why shouldn't I have the same right as she has and used) and simply made me feel like our marriage matters more than a FWB then I would be so much more comfortable and things would be easier.

Am I wrong to want that?
 
Let me repeat back what it sounds like to me. You correct me if I am getting it wrong, ok? I quote just to visually block it off.


I am concerned that my wife and I are drifting apart. We've been fighting a lot of the last year. When I ask her to stick to agreements we made, rather than apologize and stick to them, or ask to renegotiate them with me so they are doable for her, she acts out at me instead.

She shuts down all conversation with accusations that I am trying to control her. I end up not wanting to talk. That doesn't solve anything.

I don't know how to fix this.

CURRENT AGREEMENT

  • She does not swing any more.
  • I do not swing any more.
  • We agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship to include polysexual partners. We did not agree to polyamorous partners.
  • She is able to have a FWB. (She has a BF right now. He is married with kids)
  • I am able to have a FWB. ( I have a GF right now)

We agreed a basic set of ground rules to address safety, balance and the right for either of us to say stop.

  • To me, "say stop" means we end this FWB experiment and we both break up with the other people.
  • To her, it means "end the marriage" and she breaks up with me.
  • We are not in agreement on this part of the agreement.

We agree to discuss concerns/resolve conflict by______? If we cannot do it alone, we agree to ____?

PRESENT PROBLEMS

She is not meeting agreement for balance.
  • She likes to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants to
  • She says one thing and then, when it suits her, doing another.
  • She makes unilateral decisions for the couple. What she says goes both of us.
    • I have no voice. There is no discussion, no compromise, no right for me to say "hang on a sec..."

When I object and ask for consideration of my feelings, ask to to hang on a sec, ask for discussion so my voice is included and I am not being talked over... she angrily tells me I'm trying to control her freedom. (<---To me it sounds like you are asking her to exercise some SELF control and stick to her agreements or discuss changing them. She doesn't want to exercise any self control. She blame shifts it on to you by flipping it around. )

If I ask for help or support to help me get to where she is, she responds resentfully with "I'm already there why aren't you?"

When I say I don't feel comfortable with current situation, she threatens to end the marriage.

When I tell her I feel neglected like our relationship does not matter to her as much as her other ones and I would like some reassurance and some attention?
  • She says doesn't understand this.
  • She thinks that I should assume/just know that she loves me. (While she treats me with less than loving behavior. See above)

If this is where it is at? I think you are now in a one-sided relationship. You are expected to put in and get nothing much back. She treating you poorly.

You can ask her if she's willing to see a counselor and work this out. But if she's not, then all you can do is control your own behavior. Your (staying behavior) or your (leaving behavior.)

It's not a healthy sounding dynamic here to me. In your shoes I would bow out and leave.

And no, you are not wrong to want the things you want -- for there to be consideration, discussion, loving treatment of you, etc. For it to be a two-way relationship rather than a one-sided one.

I'm sorry you deal in this. :(

You have some tough calls to make. I suggest you think about them.

Galagirl
 
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I am concerned that my wife and I are drifting apart. We've been fighting a lot of the last year. When I ask her to stick to agreements we made, rather than apologize and stick to them, or ask to renegotiate them with me so they are doable for her, she acts out at me instead.

She shuts down all conversation with accusations that I am trying to control her. I end up not wanting to talk. That doesn't solve anything.

I don't know how to fix this.

CURRENT AGREEMENT
She does not swing any more.
I do not swing any more.
We agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship to include polysexual partners. We did not agree to polyamorous partners.
She is able to have a FWB. (She has a BF right now. He is married with kids)
I am able to have a FWB. ( I have a GF right now)

We agreed a basic set of ground rules to address safety, balance and the right for either of us to say stop (or say no to some aspect).
To me, "say stop" means we end this FWB experiment and we both break up with the other people. (or not do something, not go out on a particular day, stick to the agreements)
To her, it means "end the marriage" and she breaks up with me.
We are not in agreement on this part of the agreement.

We agree to discuss concerns/resolve conflict by - there is no resolution of the conflict, I either go along with it or?? If we cannot do it alone, we agree to ____?

PRESENT PROBLEMS

She is not meeting agreement for balance.
She likes to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants to
She says one thing and then, when it suits her, doing another.
She makes unilateral decisions for the couple. What she says goes both of us.
I have no voice. There is no discussion, no compromise, no right for me to say "hang on a sec..."

When I object and ask for consideration of my feelings, ask to to hang on a sec, ask for discussion so my voice is included and I am not being talked over... she angrily tells me I'm trying to control her freedom. (<---To me it sounds like you are asking her to exercise some SELF control and stick to her agreements or discuss changing them. She doesn't want to exercise any self control. She blame shifts it on to you by flipping it around. )

If I ask for help or support to help me get to where she is, she responds resentfully with "I'm already there why aren't you?"

When I say I don't feel comfortable with current situation, she threatens to end the marriage.

When I tell her I feel neglected like our relationship does not matter to her as much as her other ones and I would like some reassurance and some attention?
She says doesn't understand this.
She thinks that I should assume/just know that she loves me. (While she treats me with less than loving behavior. See above)

Other than the bits in red - absolutely spot on.
 
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Thanks for clarifying.

In the end it sounds like you are very unhappy in a one-way relationship that isn't changing any time soon.

I think you could suggest couple counseling. If she's not willing to go? If she's not willing to change her poor behaviors? Not willing to stick to agreements or make new ones that work for both of you better so the marriage can be healthy for BOTH of the people in it?

Then you may have to move on and start thinking about (as peaceful a parting as possible) so you can have peace in your life. Because you choosing to stay in a marriage where you are not being treated lovingly is not a healthy marriage for you to be in. :(

Galagirl
 
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you choosing to stay in a marriage where you are not being treated lovingly is not a healthy marriage for you to be in. :(

I have a feeling that there is a lot more to this story and it's not necessarily that the wife isn't loving. It always takes two to fight for months on end and partners rarely barrel into town and just lay down the law suddenly and coldly. This is all from one side, which is valid (and I guess almost every thread is limited to that) but I sure would be interested to hear her perspective on all of this. I can relate to your wife in many ways, Bob, and I am certainly not unloving or unhealthy or uncommunicative or a bully. I'm not meaning to point a finger, but I do think you'd benefit from taking a lot more responsibility for your part in how your marriage is evolving.
 
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