MsEmotional
Member
I have been thinking about this for a long time and I'm not quite sure that I am going to ask it in a way that makes sense, so ask questions and bear with me if I need to clarify things.
Where do you define non-monogamy as being "consensual"? It's obvious in some situations -- polyamorous people who have always defined their relationship as non-monogamous, where partners all generally have the same expectations and comfort levels, etc. But in most situations -- at least most situations that end up on here -- it sounds like there are varying levels of comfort with the situation....so where does one know for sure that they have the "consent" of their partner to be a willing participant in non-monogamy? What is the difference between non-consent and feelings of discomfort?
For example, here are a few examples of possible situations that people find themselves in....do they meet your definition of consensual non-monogamy?
Situation #1: Phyllis is in an open marriage and picks up a man, Frank, at a hotel bar. She makes it clear to him that she is only interested in a one-night thing, but she doesn't tell him that she is married. The next morning Frank notices her wedding ring, asks about it, and she tells him that she is married. Is it okay that Phyllis circumvented Frank's consent to non-monogamy by not telling him of her relationship before they slept together? Or does it not matter if she's married because she didn't violate any agreements with her husband and didn't make any promises (or even suggestions) of a relationship with Frank that would necessitate him being involved in any way with her marriage?
Situation #2: Wanda and Linda have been together for 5 years when Linda broaches the topic of non-monogamy with Wanda. Linda has a friend, Jenny, that she is attracted to and that she would like to date. Wanda agrees with polyamory on a philosophical level, but feels hurt that Linda would want to be with someone else. She eventually decides that she can get comfortable wit the idea. Linda asks Jenny out, but they don't really click together romantically and so it fizzles out fast. Wanda is relieved. Two months later, Linda comes home and gleefully tells Wanda that she was asked out by someone in her dance class, Annette, and that she said yes! Wanda doesn't know Annette but is horrified that Linda hadn't consulted her first.....Linda doesn't understand why Wanda was okay with her going out with Jenny but not with Annette. Should it matter who was the focus of the original consent to non-monogamy? Or, once someone has consented to non-monogamy, do they no longer get to revoke that consent when it comes to a different partner?
Situation #3: Megan and Derek have been non-monogamous since the start of their relationship. They are tested regularly for STIs and used condoms with each other (and all other partners) for the first year of their relationship. However, after moving in together, they decided to stop using condoms. When Megan told one of her other partners, Greg, that she was no longer using condoms with Derek, he was upset that he hadn't been consulted in advance. Does Greg have the right to consent (or not) to Megan changing her barrier use within her other relationships? Or is the decision only between Megan and Derek -- and Megan's only responsibility is to inform Greg of the change so that (if he chooses) he can adjust his own practices with Megan accordingly?
Situation #4: Louis, John and Penelope have been in a triad for 3 years when John proposes to Penelope. Penelope happily accepts and the two begin planning their wedding. Louis is hurt because he thought there was an unspoken agreement that none of them would marry each other so that there wouldn't be an imbalance of power between them. Penelope and John think that that is silly -- they knew Louis didn't want to get married, but they didn't extend that mindset to themselves... they remind Louis that nothing will change, and contend there is no imbalance of power just because the two of them get married. Louis voices his opposition again, but Penelope and John are adamant that their decision is between the two of them. Louis drops the issue and the wedding moves forward as planned. Is Louis right that he should have been allowed to consent/not consent to part of the polycule marrying each other? Or are John and Penelope right that each relationship within the triad can make their own decisions?
Situation #5: Martin and Ella met at a BDSM play party. They agreed to non-monogamy right away. Ella has two other serious partners and has encouraged Martin to date others, but Martin said he just wasn't interested in dating anyone else. One day, Martin goes to a play party on his own because Ella is busy. The next day, he tells Ella that when he was at the party an acquaintance of his invited him to do a scene and they did a scene together at the party. Ella is floored -- she had encouraged Martin to seek out other relationships, but she had never expected him to do a public sex act with another woman! Martin argues that Ella never had a problem with him having sex with someone else and sex is sex -- it doesn't matter if he chooses to do it in public or private as long as it is consensual and protected. Should Ella have had the opportunity to consent (or not) to Martin's scene with the other woman?
There are endless situations, of course, but these are just a few of the kinds of "what if" types of situations that make me wonder.....at the heart of it all there are four basic questions:
1. Does honesty = consent? In other words, if I tell my partner that I did something and/or that I am going to do something and they continue to be in a relationship with me, have I obtained their "consent"?
2. What is the difference between consent and control? Do I have the right to consent (or not) to what goes on in my partner's other relationships? Do I even have the right to know about it? Or do I only have the right to consent to my continued participation with my partner?
3. Where is the line between "not comfortable" and "not consensual"? If I feel jealousy, anger, envy at my partner's other relationships but (grudgingly) accept them, is the situation not consensual?
4. Does "fairness" = consent? If I have given my partner my consent to (date other people)/(have a friend with benefits)/(spend the weekend with their lover)/(whatever), have they automatically consented to me doing the same things?
A common theme in all those situations also points to a fifth question:
5. What is my responsibility in predicting what will or will not upset my partner? How do I ever know that I am acting in good faith about when to consult (or confess) if I can never fully predict my partner's reaction to every situation I might find myself in?
Polyamory involves so many different possible configurations and levels of commitment that it is impossible to negotiate every eventuality in advance. You also don't want to be in a situation where you are constantly saying, "Yeah, I'd like to do that, but I need to consult with my polycule first...." So where's the line?
Where do you define non-monogamy as being "consensual"? It's obvious in some situations -- polyamorous people who have always defined their relationship as non-monogamous, where partners all generally have the same expectations and comfort levels, etc. But in most situations -- at least most situations that end up on here -- it sounds like there are varying levels of comfort with the situation....so where does one know for sure that they have the "consent" of their partner to be a willing participant in non-monogamy? What is the difference between non-consent and feelings of discomfort?
For example, here are a few examples of possible situations that people find themselves in....do they meet your definition of consensual non-monogamy?
Situation #1: Phyllis is in an open marriage and picks up a man, Frank, at a hotel bar. She makes it clear to him that she is only interested in a one-night thing, but she doesn't tell him that she is married. The next morning Frank notices her wedding ring, asks about it, and she tells him that she is married. Is it okay that Phyllis circumvented Frank's consent to non-monogamy by not telling him of her relationship before they slept together? Or does it not matter if she's married because she didn't violate any agreements with her husband and didn't make any promises (or even suggestions) of a relationship with Frank that would necessitate him being involved in any way with her marriage?
Situation #2: Wanda and Linda have been together for 5 years when Linda broaches the topic of non-monogamy with Wanda. Linda has a friend, Jenny, that she is attracted to and that she would like to date. Wanda agrees with polyamory on a philosophical level, but feels hurt that Linda would want to be with someone else. She eventually decides that she can get comfortable wit the idea. Linda asks Jenny out, but they don't really click together romantically and so it fizzles out fast. Wanda is relieved. Two months later, Linda comes home and gleefully tells Wanda that she was asked out by someone in her dance class, Annette, and that she said yes! Wanda doesn't know Annette but is horrified that Linda hadn't consulted her first.....Linda doesn't understand why Wanda was okay with her going out with Jenny but not with Annette. Should it matter who was the focus of the original consent to non-monogamy? Or, once someone has consented to non-monogamy, do they no longer get to revoke that consent when it comes to a different partner?
Situation #3: Megan and Derek have been non-monogamous since the start of their relationship. They are tested regularly for STIs and used condoms with each other (and all other partners) for the first year of their relationship. However, after moving in together, they decided to stop using condoms. When Megan told one of her other partners, Greg, that she was no longer using condoms with Derek, he was upset that he hadn't been consulted in advance. Does Greg have the right to consent (or not) to Megan changing her barrier use within her other relationships? Or is the decision only between Megan and Derek -- and Megan's only responsibility is to inform Greg of the change so that (if he chooses) he can adjust his own practices with Megan accordingly?
Situation #4: Louis, John and Penelope have been in a triad for 3 years when John proposes to Penelope. Penelope happily accepts and the two begin planning their wedding. Louis is hurt because he thought there was an unspoken agreement that none of them would marry each other so that there wouldn't be an imbalance of power between them. Penelope and John think that that is silly -- they knew Louis didn't want to get married, but they didn't extend that mindset to themselves... they remind Louis that nothing will change, and contend there is no imbalance of power just because the two of them get married. Louis voices his opposition again, but Penelope and John are adamant that their decision is between the two of them. Louis drops the issue and the wedding moves forward as planned. Is Louis right that he should have been allowed to consent/not consent to part of the polycule marrying each other? Or are John and Penelope right that each relationship within the triad can make their own decisions?
Situation #5: Martin and Ella met at a BDSM play party. They agreed to non-monogamy right away. Ella has two other serious partners and has encouraged Martin to date others, but Martin said he just wasn't interested in dating anyone else. One day, Martin goes to a play party on his own because Ella is busy. The next day, he tells Ella that when he was at the party an acquaintance of his invited him to do a scene and they did a scene together at the party. Ella is floored -- she had encouraged Martin to seek out other relationships, but she had never expected him to do a public sex act with another woman! Martin argues that Ella never had a problem with him having sex with someone else and sex is sex -- it doesn't matter if he chooses to do it in public or private as long as it is consensual and protected. Should Ella have had the opportunity to consent (or not) to Martin's scene with the other woman?
There are endless situations, of course, but these are just a few of the kinds of "what if" types of situations that make me wonder.....at the heart of it all there are four basic questions:
1. Does honesty = consent? In other words, if I tell my partner that I did something and/or that I am going to do something and they continue to be in a relationship with me, have I obtained their "consent"?
2. What is the difference between consent and control? Do I have the right to consent (or not) to what goes on in my partner's other relationships? Do I even have the right to know about it? Or do I only have the right to consent to my continued participation with my partner?
3. Where is the line between "not comfortable" and "not consensual"? If I feel jealousy, anger, envy at my partner's other relationships but (grudgingly) accept them, is the situation not consensual?
4. Does "fairness" = consent? If I have given my partner my consent to (date other people)/(have a friend with benefits)/(spend the weekend with their lover)/(whatever), have they automatically consented to me doing the same things?
A common theme in all those situations also points to a fifth question:
5. What is my responsibility in predicting what will or will not upset my partner? How do I ever know that I am acting in good faith about when to consult (or confess) if I can never fully predict my partner's reaction to every situation I might find myself in?
Polyamory involves so many different possible configurations and levels of commitment that it is impossible to negotiate every eventuality in advance. You also don't want to be in a situation where you are constantly saying, "Yeah, I'd like to do that, but I need to consult with my polycule first...." So where's the line?
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