Charting Our Course

Sex is officially not a thing in the whatever-I-have with S2 right now. I asked him point blank the other night, and pointed out that he's waffled about it and avoided the question, but that I needed a straight answer because I felt crappier about myself every time I asked. I told him I kept asking because I needed to know (I think it's only fair that I know whether someone who's been a sexual partner is going to continue being one or not), but that I couldn't deal with continuing to have to ask.

He said that *right now*, he would rather keep sex out of it. He said that *right now*, this isn't a relationship (which we'd already determined). But he also said that nothing is completely or permanently off the table, and that he wants to keep all doors open between us. He needs the emotional space to deal with his divorce and stuff, but he needs my emotional support as well, he values me too much to completely withdraw from me knowing that he supports me at times, and at the moment, as far as he's concerned, we will "re-upgrade" once he's gotten through what he needs to get through.

Oddly, despite all of this, I actually feel *more* loved, cared for, and valued by him than I did when we were calling it a relationship. We started off as occasional friends with benefits, transitioned into a committed relationship... and now we're platonic friends. And from what I'm seeing, that's actually good, because now our connection is developing more organically than before, and we're both realizing how important the other is to us.

We're still going camping, though our first trip is going to be camping/kayaking at a "mainstream" place. He said he wants to take me camping at the nudist resort in August instead. Based on his experience with outdoorsy stuff, he said it made more sense to do the kayaking first, before the weather gets insanely warm to the point where I can't tolerate being outside for long (breathing problems, plus high heat/humidity makes my fibromyalgia worse), and do the nudist thing when it's warm enough to want to be outside nude but there are air conditioned buildings to hang out in if it's too hot or humid.

The dick pic thing... He changed his AFF profile to say that he's taking a break, and he eliminated the sentence that said he's been in a polyamorous relationship for nearly a year. But he left his relationship status as "attached" and told me he has no intention of changing that. And he took down the dick pic.

When I asked him about that, he said, "You made some good points about the impression I might give people by having it there, but mostly I took it down because you seemed so upset about it." I asked him why my opinion mattered if we aren't in a relationship anymore; he kind of sputtered for a few seconds, then said, "It just does, dammit, so deal with it!" LOL

Meanwhile, last weekend I hit a very dark, low point. I'm okay now, mostly thanks to S2; he didn't realize it at the time (though I told him a few days later), but he literally saved my life that day.

On the heels of that, I confronted Hubby about some issues I've been trying to pretend aren't there, like the fact that he's been essentially checked out of the marriage and family since last fall. He tried to deflect some of the responsibility for his behavior, but for the most part he owned it, and he owned the contributions his behavior has made to negatively impacting my mental health, my physical health, and his relationships with me, Alt, and Country. He made promises again about how he's going to try to make things better... and I pretty much told him that I'm going to have to *see* it, not hear it, and that while I'm not done with him *yet*, whether that's still true next year after Country leaves for college is going to depend largely on whether he actually follows through on working with me to keep this marriage healthy.

As I noted in my other thread, I'm not currently having sex with Hubby either, because right now I don't feel any emotional or sexual attraction to him due to how bad things had gotten between us. If I were to have sex with him at this point, it would only be because I haven't had sex in a few weeks and he's the one who's available to me, and that wouldn't be fair to either of us. I told him that as well, and he told me to take my time because he only wants me to have sex with him if I genuinely *want* it. So we'll see.
 
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If your depression is to a point where someone is literally 'saving your life' on a particular day, has it crossed your mind that perhaps whatever you're doing medically (or in therapy) isn't working as well as you might think?

I think blog entries like that are very disturbing - and were I S2 I'd be very concerned about your mental health before all else. And as for your husband, does he know that you were that low? Your doctor or therapist even?
 
If you're disturbed by what I write, please feel free to avoid my blog thread in the future. I write what I think and feel here. That's what these blogs are for. (Nor am I the first poster here to reference feeling depressed or even suicidal.)

To make it clear... I didn't attempt suicide. I was low enough that I found myself considering it as an option, but not at the point of considering *how* or of even actually wanting to try. I was already in an ongoing text conversation with S2, and *I* recognized where my head was at and reached out to him for help. (Without telling him how bleak things were at that point; I did tell him exactly what happened when I saw him a few days later, though.) And he said a couple of things that reminded me that someone does care, and that I have a lot more to live for than I sometimes realize. That's how he saved my life.

As for your concerns... I have no illusions about my mental health; I know full well what the problems are and how serious they are. My medication works as well as it can, and is the only antidepressant I'm able to take without side effects that make my health worse.

My counselor is completely ineffective, with a therapy style that involves interrupting her clients constantly to tell them what SHE thinks they should do about what SHE thinks they are saying, rather than listening to the client and working *with* them to solve the actual problems. I have an appointment at the counseling center this coming week to discuss being reassigned to a counselor who actually counsels. My primary care doctor isn't involved in my mental health care. So I haven't told either of them, nor do I intend to.

Additionally, the low point wasn't caused by depression. It was *exacerbated* by it, but it was caused by several MONTHS of struggling to keep up with demands placed on me by every member of my household and a few people outside of it, while Hubby emotionally, mentally, and sometimes physically checked out of the family and consistently either refused to take on some tasks to lighten my load, or promised to take them on and then didn't bother. It was also caused by the resurfacing of some trauma-related memories triggered by a few recent occurrences, and by some deterioration in my physical health (which my doctor does know about). It was a long, slow decline that I'd been fighting against for months.

I told Hubby what happened. He said he thinks his life would suck without me. He admitted ignoring the signs he's seen over the past several months that I was feeling too stressed and too overwhelmed, as well as ignoring my requests that he help me out with the kids and some of the household stuff to *lessen* that stress and overwhelmed-ness. Even that morning, I flat out told him I was struggling and asked him to talk with me for a few minutes, and his response was "Sorry, I have to work" followed by walking out the door without letting me say anything else. Which made me feel like he didn't care if I was okay or not, which fed into what was already going on. (He did have to work, but he wasn't at risk of being late if he gave me five minutes to talk.) And as I said in my previous post, a few days later I confronted him about the "checking out" and the refusals to do anything to lessen my workload within the household regardless of how many times I asked. So yeah, he knows.

You aren't S2; you don't know what he's concerned about or isn't. Likewise, you aren't me, and you don't know my life, my past, or apparently any of the stress and struggles I've mentioned previously in this blog which contributed. Nor do you know what type of medication I'm on, what type of therapy I'm in now and have been in in the past, or how long I've kept things buried inside because I felt like I had to ignore my own needs and health to take care of the people around me. (And for a few weeks, because my health insurance provider kept screwing up my coverage so I wasn't able to access any mental health services or get my medication.) You don't know how hard I fight, and how many times I've succeeded in keeping myself from sinking even without anyone's help.

So while I appreciate your concern, and I know that from an outside standpoint things might look "disturbing", believe me... compared to everything I've accomplished and overcome in my life, and all the times I've won out against the depression and traumas, this was nothing more than a bump in the road. And in its wake, I've emerged strong enough to finally confront Hubby about his behavior, to lay down some much-needed boundaries with Country, and to make changes in other aspects of my life so that I will have the time and space I need to be healthy.
 
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Of course it's your blog. That said, it is open to questions/comments. If you have taken offense at mine, it wasn't my intention. There was no critique implied, just concern.

So while I appreciate your concern, and I know that from an outside standpoint things might look "disturbing", believe me... compared to everything I've accomplished and overcome in my life, and all the times I've won out against the depression and traumas, this was nothing more than a bump in the road.

As a person who's spent the majority of his life dealing with depression/anxieties, I can relate to this. Issues seem large in the moment, but relative to other things that've been endured - they're not.

I wish you well, KC43. :)

PS - Best of luck getting a better therapist.
 
Thank you. I apologize for taking your previous post wrong. It's often hard to tell via letters on a screen what someone's intention is, and I've had too many people in my life who have either told me I'm "a drama queen" when I have depressive episodes or anxiety attacks, or who have told me I'm a complete psycho who needs to be locked up away from my kids. So I get a little touchier than I ought to sometimes when someone comments about my mental health.

It's definitely true that depression and anxiety magnify things, which is why I definitely agree that my depression contributed to my state of mind last weekend. The stress and other issues were very real, but the depression magnified them into an amorphous blob of "I can't deal with any of this."

I wish you the best as well. Anxiety and depression are not something I would wish on anyone.

I spoke with my current therapist by phone the other day and told her exactly what my issues are with her "therapy" style. I agreed to give her one more shot at actually being therapeutic, but also told her that I would prefer to be transferred. I also notified the clinic's scheduling staff that I would prefer to change therapists. So when I go in there this week, I will be meeting with the current counselor, but if the session even starts going the way the last ones have, I will be walking down to the front desk to take care of getting reassigned, and she is aware of that. It's a case of "no therapy at all is better than bad therapy."
 
Brick and I are no longer friends. In the wake of the SCOTUS ruling on Friday, I posted things on Facebook in support of marriage equality. On Sunday, I got a message from him ranting at me for posting "that shit" where he could see it, which apparently I shouldn't have done because I know he doesn't like it.

First... no, I didn't know that, or you wouldn't have been in my life to begin with. Second, it's MY Facebook wall. I don't base my posts on what my "friends" like. I base them on what I want to post. I told him he gets to decide what he reads or doesn't read, but *I* get to decide what I post.

He said, "Well, if you want to get in touch with me from now on, you'll have to private message me or call me. And you'd damn well better not send me any of that shit privately, or we're going to have a serious problem."

This is the man who was my first love when I was 15. Who protected me and defended me through high school and college. Who was there when I needed him--and who should have known better than to think I would send him anything he "doesn't like" privately.

Not to mention... you fucking THREATEN me, or close to it, after 30 years of what we've been to each other? Go to hell.

I told him he had nothing to worry about, that he wouldn't be hearing or seeing anything from me at all from then on. And that was that. I don't need that kind of poison in my life. I'm dealing with enough BS as it is.

Meanwhile... Hubby's behavior hasn't changed. He had his court hearing about a traffic issue on Tuesday, and everything was dismissed, which takes away one of the reasons he was giving me for being absent and avoiding the girls and me. But he's still not actually present. Not really interacting with me or Alt at all, other than saying hi. (Country's still with her dad until Monday.) Definitely not showing me any signs that he's even slightly invested in the marriage anymore. Granted, it's only been a couple of days, so I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The problem is that this was going on even before he got the traffic citation, and I've pretty much given up. It's very difficult for me to form attachments to people, and when someone I've formed an attachment to withdraws to the extent that Hubby has, the attachment isn't there anymore for me. I don't even care at the moment if he and I stay married; I'd honestly prefer it if we didn't, because that would take a lot of stress and pressure out of my life. My only reason for staying is the promises I made to Country and Alt that I wouldn't divorce Hubby as long as they're still living at home.

I feel like I've been working on and fighting for this marriage for months while he's withdrawn, ignored me, avoided me, complained, etc. Yes, there have been good times, but there have been a lot of negatives as well, and I'm tired of doing the work when he doesn't seem to care enough to do his share. It's a two-person marriage, and if only one person is working to keep the marriage going, that isn't much of a marriage as far as I'm concerned. Especially since last week when I tried to talk to him about this, he said that sometimes he feels like being married to me is just plain too much work--according to him, he feels that way because he's lazy and doesn't like working on things.

I'm feeling sexually frustrated too, or at least frustrated about sex... I like having options. When I chose not to have sex because I just wasn't feeling it, that was okay because it was a choice. One I could change if and when I was ready. But now, there's no viable choice. S2 doesn't want sex right now (he made it clear to me last night that he *is* sexually attracted to me, he just doesn't feel any sexual arousal or desire because of the stuff he's dealing with, which I can understand), and even if I were willing to compromise my standards to have sex with Hubby, he hasn't been home.

And I'm not really willing to make that compromise. I did that for YEARS with my ex, until it reached the point where I was physically nauseated--and sometimes vomited--whenever he touched me. I won't do that to myself again.

I also won't go seeking another sex partner, because it isn't about sex as much as it is about having a sexual connection with the men who are already in my life. I need to have some kind of emotional/intellectual connection with a guy before I'm even slightly interested in sex with him, and finding someone I can connect with on that level takes more time and energy than I have available right now. Plus, as I said to S2 last night, I feel like if I went looking even for a fuck buddy, it wouldn't be fair to S2 or Hubby, though it's hard for me to explain why, especially given how things are between Hubby and me at the moment.

If things were different with Hubby, I would want sex with him; until now, even when things were crappy in most other areas of the marriage, sex was always good. It isn't now because his behavior reached the point where it disgusted me, and disgust isn't a very helpful emotion when it comes to being sexually attracted to someone...

And before S2 decided he needed to go platonic with me, he was actually listening to my needs and making an effort to work with me so sex would be more interesting, more fun, more...whatever it was I needed it to be. He was also making more of an effort to initiate once he realized that the problem wasn't (at that point) me not wanting sex but me having difficulty saying so. So for the few weeks between the letter I wrote him and his decision to ask for platonic, sex with him was actually quite good.

But for now, sex isn't a thing at all in my life, and since I've worked through a few things that were impacting my desire *not* to have sex, having it not be an option kinda sucks.
 
After typing yesterday's post, reading it over a couple of times, and digesting what I said and how I felt about it, I sat Hubby down and gave him the highlights of it. Including the fact that I was tired of feeling like the kids, the marriage, and I didn't matter to him. And I told him I was pretty close to the point of saying "Let's just be civil until Country goes to college, and then you'll never have to deal with us again."

He looked completely stunned. He told me that sometimes he's afraid I'm only here because of the kids, and I told him that for the past several months, there have been a number of times when Alt and Country *have* been my only reason for staying. That when I feel like he doesn't want us around, and I'm unhappy, it's hard to see any other reason to want to be here besides "I promised my kids." I told him right now, our marriage has deteriorated to the point where I'm miserable, and I don't see the sense in being miserable with him; I'd probably be miserable alone too, but there would be a lot less stress and aggravation.

He apologized, and unlike last week, I felt like this time he was sincere. Throughout the entire discussion, he didn't even once try to deflect responsibility for his actions or behavior; he owned everything. He said he wants this marriage to work, and he wants to do however much work it takes to get things back to a good place.

He said he loves me, and I told him I need to feel it. And that for the past several months, I haven't felt at all loved by him; I've felt like a nuisance, and an obligation, and a responsibility. I reminded him that I grew up being constantly told that not only was I not loved, but I didn't deserve to be, and so just hearing "I love you" doesn't mean anything unless there are actions/behaviors to back it up.

That doesn't mean anything grand or blatant, which I also reminded him. (We've had similar conversations before.) It means things like actually doing the things he says he'll do. It means hearing me say, on his days off or when he has some free time, "Hey, I really need you to do this task for me because I have too much on my plate" and responding with "Sure, I'll help you" and then actually DOING THE TASK. Or giving me a solid reason why he can't instead of just "I don't feel like it, sorry you have too much to do." It means hearing me say "I'm really struggling right now and I need your help to get past this depressive episode/anxiety attack" and responding with "What can I do to help?" instead of "Sorry, I have to work."

It also means saying "I can't listen to you right now because I'm in a bad mood" instead of just ignoring me or walking away without a word. And it means if he does have to work when I'm struggling, maybe saying something like "I'm sorry you're having a hard time, I really need to leave but I'll text you when I get to work to make sure you're okay" and then actually sending the text. It means recognizing that I *don't* expect him to do what I want/need him to do every single time, but at least acknowledging that I have that need and letting me know why he can't meet it.

He said he's never had a time when he doesn't feel loved by me, so sometimes he forgets that I need things to be more obvious and spelled out, and he said he doesn't ever again want me to have even a day when I don't feel loved by him.

I don't know how much of any of that he meant, because he's good at saying things and then not following through on them. But I think he at least *wanted* to mean them, which is better than just saying them to get out of the conversation...

Things like telling him to say "I'm sorry you're struggling, I have to go to work but I'll text you to make sure you're okay" and then actually texting... he said he needs me to give him specifics like that, because sometimes even though he knows I need something from him, he isn't sure what I need or how to give it to me. He also said he felt like an idiot for not thinking of that himself, because it's something very simple and not time-consuming that he can do to help me, and to reassure *himself* that I'm okay. He knows from past experience that no matter how much I'm struggling, if I know someone's going to check in with me, I can always hang on until they do.

Unlike our discussion last week, I feel like yesterday's was productive. But I'm withholding any hopes or expectations as to how effective it was, because even though I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I want to believe he means it this time... the fact that I have to add "this time" is why I can't actually believe him yet. Because there have been too many other times when he's said similar things and then gone right back to the old ways.
 
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So it's been about a week since Hubby and I had our talk. He hasn't been home a lot of that time because of work, but when he has been around, I think he's trying to stick to the things he said about making sure I feel loved (I still don't feel loved by him, but I think he's trying) and about helping me out and following through when he says he'll do things.

Part of me, though, can't help thinking "It's only been a week; he's lasted longer than this before but then has always gone back to the way things were, so I can't actually trust these changes yet."

Things with S2 are awkward and complicated. We're still in "downgrade" mode, and every time I'm with him, that gets harder for me to deal with. I want to be able to snuggle with him, kiss him, have sex with him, the way it was before, and that isn't a possibility right now. So I end up keeping a physical distance between us and waiting for him to give me a crumb of physical affection rather than me risking reaching for a hug and being rejected. It's bullshit, and while I realize he needs to have this downgrade for the moment, that doesn't mean it isn't hurtful for me.

Last night we were watching a movie together, and he didn't even put his arm around me the way he usually does (even since the downgrade) until I asked why he wasn't. And then he said it was because I was being too quiet and he didn't know if he should touch me or not. He knows me. He knows when I get quiet, I have unpleasant thoughts going through my head, and those are the times I MOST need a hug or to have him put his arm around me or hold my hand or something. I've TOLD him that.

I hate going to see him at this point, because every single time, I end up in tears feeling like I'm only there because he's too afraid of hurting me to cut me off completely even though he probably wants to. Last night was the first time I managed not to cry in front of him, but I still cried; I said I had to go to the bathroom and cried in there for a few minutes. And I've been crying most of today, because last night was the most uncomfortable, unpleasant time I've ever had with him, and I don't know if I can keep putting myself through this when it's getting worse instead of better.

I want to be there for him while he's dealing with what he's dealing with, but not at the cost of my own comfort. Not at the cost of being in emotional pain every time I see him. I can "be there" by phone or email... I don't know if I can be in person right now.

And the shitty thing is, I'm supposed to be with him the entire weekend. He planned a camping trip that we've been talking about for months. Kayaking under the longest covered bridge in New England (or something like that) and then spending the night at a campground nearby. The kayak and camping trip is Saturday and Sunday, but I'm supposed to crash at his apartment tomorrow night so we can get on the road first thing Saturday morning.

I don't want to be at his place when I know I can go home in a few hours. I haven't spent the night there since sometime in May, which was before the "downgrade," and I don't know if I can handle it right now. We wouldn't have to share a bed; he said I could have his bed and he'd sleep on Beads's, if I'm not comfortable sharing. But part of me thinks that would make me feel worse than sharing the bed with him.

I talked to Best Friend the other day; he and Star took me out to lunch for a belated birthday thing. He said the same thing as Guy, essentially: that I'm being a doormat by accepting the way things are right now with S2. I don't know if it's exactly doormat-ish, but I feel pretty crappy about it right now, and I do feel a lot of the time like I'm being taken for granted and not respecting myself.

A couple of weeks ago I said I felt more loved and cared for by him than before the downgrade. At the time, I did. But now I feel like shit every time I'm around him, and I feel like he's as uncomfortable as I am. Last night he admitted that *he* doesn't even know what he wants or what he means by "downgrading", which means I'm completely clueless, because how can I understand what he neither understands nor can explain?

I defended him to Best Friend by saying S2 has been there for me through some really difficult, painful times. That I feel like he's there for me and cares about me more than Hubby. Those things are still true, but "more than Hubby" is a pretty low bar to set at this point. And that doesn't minimize the negatives.

The camping thing...he bought me a sleeping bag. He's already paid for the campsite reservations and made a reservation at the kayaking place. He's put money into this. That's the only reason I'm still considering going, because I feel guilty about canceling since he's already paid for some things. On the other hand, Alt and Country are both going to be gone from tomorrow morning until Sunday afternoon, so if I stay home, I'll have some time to myself to think things through. Which might or might not be a good thing.

I have until tomorrow to decide. Canceling on S2 last minute would be kind of a sucky thing to do, but I have to do what's right for ME, not what's right for him. Doing what's right for him is what's making me feel this shitty.
 
I tried calling S2 last Thursday night to tell him I was reconsidering the camping trip. He neither answered the phone (he was practicing guitar, which I knew because I can tell when he opens the MP3 files in our band's set list folder in Dropbox) nor called back. The next morning he emailed me the information from the kayaking place, and I texted him and told him I was having second thoughts and wanted to talk to him. He said he would call me at lunch, but I wanted to talk face to face because even though I knew that would be uncomfortable, talking over the phone seemed both more difficult and more cowardly.

So Friday night, I went to his place feeling pretty crappy. The idea of spending 2 nights with him--which had never happened before; when we were actually in a relationship, the most we spent together was every other Saturday night--under the current circumstances... I just didn't like the idea. I would have to wear something to sleep in, for one thing; before, we always slept nude. I wouldn't be able to touch him. Wouldn't wake up to anything pleasant the following morning. Plus... if I was going to spend a night not having sex and being miserable, it made more sense to do so home by myself instead of with him.

When I got to his place, I told him how I was feeling. I pointed out that I've cried every time I've been with him since he downgraded, and told him that isn't fair to either of us. I said I've known he doesn't love me, and I know he doesn't want me (sexually speaking) anymore, and I keep wondering what I did wrong even though he's told me over and over that it's about him, not me.

I also said I felt like I'm disrespecting myself by doing this. That I feel hurt and angry, and I don't know if he actually even wants me around or just deals with it because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings any more than he already has. He told me if I don't feel like I'm respecting myself, I shouldn't keep putting myself through this. I reminded him that I promised I would be there for him and would do what he needed from me, and he said "I give you permission to break that promise. You have to do what YOU need, not what I need."

I don't break promises, but I thought about what he said. It made me feel good and bad at the same time, because it almost sounded like he didn't actually care if I stuck around, even though I didn't really think that was what he meant.

We talked for a long time. He reminded me that he did this so he would hurt me less than I would have been hurt if he'd been dishonest with me about what he needed or how he felt. He also reminded me that he wants this to be temporary, he wants to "re-upgrade" after he's dealt with what he needs to deal with--but then he said he can't promise that's what he's going to want when the time comes. He said he's always going to want my friendship, but doesn't want to say he'll want to go back to a relationship with me when he can't predict the future. And he said one of the reasons for being concerned about a relationship with me is because he wants more kids and doesn't think he would find a woman who would be willing to have kids with him but be okay with him being in another relationship.

Which sucks, because if he finds a woman who'll have kids with him, he won't actually have time for our friendship, either... Been there with other male friends of mine, most recently Best Friend. "Our friendship isn't going to change just because I'm in a relationship now. We'll still hang out just as much and talk as much as we do now"... and I'm lucky with Best Friend to hear from him once a month, and our lunch last week was the first time I'd seen him since our AFF group's New Year's Eve party. The other guys who've said that to me aren't even in my life anymore.

At the moment, S2 isn't looking for any kind of partner or relationship, so I'm trying not to think about that. But I did tell him that if he has kids with someone else, he'd better think again about whether even a friendship with me would be acceptable to the other woman, because it probably wouldn't be and even if it was, he wouldn't have time for me if he had responsibilities to another woman and child(ren).

The discussion was a lot about me trying to understand and process all of this. I pointed out that part of the problem was that we hadn't really had a transition; we went from "relationship" to "downgrade" in one evening, and didn't change our schedules or anything, so I've been seeing him right along and hadn't really managed to wrap my head around this. He said he's sorry it's been hard for me, and repeated that he's okay if I stop spending time with him, or at least spend less time, because he wants me to be comfortable and happy. And I repeated that I made a promise to him, and I would rather try to be okay with the promise first.

Bottom line, I did end up going camping with him, but there were some really painful moments, and a couple of times I seriously wished I had some way to get home. Which I didn't, because the kayaking and campground were 3 hours or so from his place.

I spent Friday night at his place; he was willing to sleep in Beads's bed, but I didn't want to sleep in his bed alone, and he was okay with that too. We spooned before we fell asleep, like we've always done--except we were wearing stuff this time. Saturday night in his tent, same thing, and I woke up Sunday morning with him holding me.

By Sunday, despite the rough patches, I was starting to feel more comfortable with the whole "downgrade" thing. Some switch kind of flipped in my brain between "boyfriend" and "friend", even though I don't think of him as only a friend. I still consider him more, and I hope that he'll be able to return to being more with me over time. A FWB if nothing else, since we agreed that sex isn't necessarily a "relationshippy" thing, though right now it isn't something he's comfortable with.

I also made sure--by asking a bunch of questions and telling him I'll probably have more--that he isn't just keeping me around out of a sense of guilt or obligation. He said it's about 2% so I won't be hurt by him any more than I already have been, and 98% because he values me, wants me in his life, and considers me the one person he can really trust and count on right now. He said he doesn't do anything out of guilt, and promised he will keep being honest with me about where I stand with him, and where our not-relationship stands. He said as long as I'm okay seeing him, he wants to spend time with me, but that if it gets too difficult, he wants me to tell him.

He *still* hasn't changed his status on AFF; it still says he's attached. And he still says he isn't changing it...
 
I updated my sex thread in the relationships section about this a little, but more thoughts on the situation with Hubby...

So far, I *think* he's still trying to "make the marriage work." But it isn't working. At this point, I have to acknowledge how much responsibility I share for that. I feel like I tried to "make the marriage work" by myself for several months while he withdrew, didn't interact or argued with me when he did, etc., and now I don't have any energy left to keep trying, especially since I tried to address the problems with him several times before he actually acknowledged that there were problems and that he wanted to do something about it. Mostly I talked to him a few weeks ago because I wanted things to be more comfortable at home, but I think it was already too late. He's tried to be more attentive, but it feels "off" to me. We've had sex a couple of times, but it wasn't enjoyable and he didn't listen when I tried to tell him what I needed to make it more enjoyable for me. And I don't feel even slightly connected to him during sex, I feel like I'm there because I'm supposed to be, and when will he be done so I can go back to cleaning the house or whatever?

Not a recipe for "making a marriage work," and at this point I don't know if there is any way to fix things. I told him the marriage was broken, but it isn't only the marriage. My trust in him is broken, and so is my heart, and those things are not so easily repaired. Especially when they've been broken so many times before--BY HIM--and every single time we've tried to work it out, he's gone and broken them AGAIN. So I don't really have any motivation to let him back in when odds are pretty damn good that things will just get re-broken.

He is doing better about following through on things and helping me with family responsibilities, but I'd gotten so resentful about the times that he wouldn't do anything that I'm having to force myself to be grateful, because the petty part of me keeps thinking "What do you want, a cookie? You should have been doing this shit all along!" I'm trying not to be petty. I am trying to give him credit where it's due, and to recognize the changes he's making. But as I said, I feel like his commitment to working things out came a few months too late, and my agreement was primarily because I have to stay with him for at least another year, so it might as well be as civil as possible.

Friday, I went for what was meant to be a day trip. A nice, long drive on one of the more scenic routes in my state. By the time I reached the far end of the route, I realized I was too tired and in too much pain to drive the 3.5 hours home, so I texted Hubby and S2 to let both of them know I was going to find a place to stay for the night, just so people would know where I was.

S2 responded by asking if I was all right, if I was safe to drive any farther at all, if I had my pain meds. Followed by a couple of texts about motels he knew of in the area, and then a phone call to make sure that I was truly safe to drive (he can tell by how I talk how far gone I am; when exhaustion and fibro pain kick in, I'm not completely coherent, my words get jumbled, and I tend to use wrong-but-close words like "table" for "desk"...he called partly because he knows that those issues aren't evident when I text, but that I can't hide them if I'm speaking) and to offer to give me his credit card number to get a room for the night if I didn't have enough money. He made me promise to call him when I found a place to stay, and then again when I arrived so he would know I was all right.

Hubby responded with "Okay." And that was it. No questions about how I was feeling or if I was safe to drive. No questions about *where* I would stay or requests to let him know when I got there. No questions about whether I had enough money to get a room. Just "Okay." When I told him after I got home yesterday that that made me feel like he didn't care, he said, "Well, I was at work, so it was pretty much just whatever made you happy."

He texted me from work last night to say he was thinking about me and hoped I'd had a good day, so a small attempt, at least...

Meanwhile, S2 not only kept checking in with me Friday until I told him I was settled in a motel room and was waiting for food delivery, he also realized that I would be heading back home yesterday morning at the same time, on the same highway, that he would be driving with Spikes and Beads in the opposite direction to visit one of their uncles. So he made plans--and even ended up rearranging things a bit yesterday morning--so we could meet for a bit and hang out along the way.
 
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Last night I took advantage of S2 being "just a friend" right now and confided in him about how things are with Hubby. I may have crossed lines by doing that, but I talk to friends about that kind of thing, and I needed to get it out. I've probably completely screwed any chance that might have existed for S2 and me to be in a relationship again, though...

He understood that while I don't necessarily *want* to leave Hubby, it's looking like the choice is either that or continue being in a marriage where I feel unhappy, unwanted, and disrespected. He made a few suggestions about how I might be able to get my finances in order so the break will be easier if it happens. He's known that things weren't great between Hubby and me; he isn't oblivious, and even though I hadn't opened up to him before, he'd picked up on some things I had said, or on how I reacted during conversations about Hubby or whatever.

He was angry when I told him that Hubby only said "okay" when I got too tired to drive during my road trip last week. Even though I told him Hubby was at work at the time, he didn't understand how, hearing that and knowing how bad my fibro gets, Hubby could only say "okay" and not even ask me to check in with him later. S2 also said that when I texted him, he actually expected me to drive out to meet me so he could escort me home (he said his ex-wife used to have to do that sometimes; she also has fibro)...and that even though I was two hours away, and he had Spikes and Beads coming for the weekend, if I had asked, he would have come.

Like I've said before, the man who says he doesn't love me and doesn't want a relationship with me usually treats me better than the man who says he does love me and who's married to me... The part of me that blames myself for everything figures it must be that Hubby's gotten sick of my mental health issues and overreactions and overthinking, and S2 hasn't known me long enough to be sick of it yet, but I don't think that's really it.

S2 said he's sorry I'm having to deal with that right now, and I said it wasn't anything new even though it's new for him to hear about; it's been like this with Hubby for most of our relationship, but either it's gotten worse or I'm seeing more clearly that I don't like it and don't *have to* like it. He looked at me with utter surprise, and I told him I hadn't said anything to him before because it didn't feel right talking to my boyfriend about my husband, but since right now he isn't my boyfriend... He said to talk to him about anything anytime I need to, no matter what our status is.

Later I said I'm hoping we'll "re-upgrade" once he's gotten through what he needs to get through, and that I'm going to hope that until he tells me not to. He said, "Absolutely; there's definitely hope, but just don't get upset if I go on dates."

I really wish he hadn't said that, because the way he said it made it sound like that's an immediate possibility. Like he was thinking about--and maybe even planning with a specific someone else--going on a date while still telling me that he isn't in a place where he wants to date or have a relationship or whatever. I even asked if that was a possibility and he said it was, but when I asked for clarification he said it isn't a "right now" thing, he is definitely still taking a break from dating as a whole, whether it's me or anyone else.

But that fed my primary fear, which is that he's going to decide he never wants a relationship with me again and will find someone else and not have time to even be my friend anymore. I told him that, and I told him that even though I want to say he and I will at the very least stay friends, I can't. And I can't believe it if he says it. No one can predict the future... and in the past ten years or so, five people have said to me "We'll always be friends, I'll always be here for you." Not a single one of them is in my life anymore in even the most tangential way. Not even on Facebook.

I'm afraid it's going to be the same with S2. I've told him so much about myself and my issues and fears and stress and shit since he downgraded, that I can't believe he's ever going to want a relationship with me again, because now he knows how much of a mess I am. And he can say all he wants that even if he has a relationship with someone else he would still want to be my friend and would still spend time with me. The guy I've called "Best Friend" in this blog said exactly the same thing when he started dating Star, and now "Best Friend" and I might talk once every other month or so online, and we've only seen each other once in the past six months.

I told S2 I don't want him to tell me that we'll stay friends, or that we'll "re-upgrade" or become friends with benefits or anything, because he can't predict the future and I don't want to put him in the position of saying something now that will prove to be untrue months down the road. But I do wish he had at least said something like "Don't worry about the things you've told me, that isn't a factor in our status" or something to at least indicate there's still a possibility...

I've told him all along that I can't say anything about whether he dates anyone else or not. And I won't ever try to stop him, unless I have a specific reason about a specific person like when I asked him not to get involved with Maple because of my history with her. But... jealousy is fear in another form, and so the idea of him having another woman in his life does make me jealous, because I can't believe I would measure up. I always liked having him tell me that he didn't really want to date anyone else, that he didn't have time to, that no matter who else he dated they would never measure up to me.

I think if he and I resume our relationship *and* he starts seeing someone else (even more than one someone else), it would be easier than if he started dating other people and kept it platonic with me. If I completely lose that place in his life and heart, though, and someone else has it... I don't know. I don't need to think about it right now. He said it isn't something that's happening right now. I just hope I can let go of it unless/until it does happen.
 
Later I said I'm hoping we'll "re-upgrade" once he's gotten through what he needs to get through . . .

. . . I've told him so much about myself and my issues and fears and stress and shit since he downgraded, that I can't believe he's ever going to want a relationship with me again, because now he knows how much of a mess I am . . . I do wish he had at least said something like "Don't worry about the things you've told me, that isn't a factor in our status" or something to at least indicate there's still a possibility.

KC, I am quite sure that he didn't say anything like that precisely for that reason -- that what you told him is definitely NOT a factor in your relationship status. He didn't say it because it wouldn't have occurred to him that you would even think that of him or need that kind of reassurance. He told you to confide in him with whatever you needed to, and said re-upgrading is a possibility when he's ready. That, to me, sounds exactly like letting you know that what you tell him doesn't have any bearing on whether or not your relationship resumes the romance/sex part.

You are not a mess. Your life may look messy to you, but that's because you are unhappy. You are dealing with hard stuff. Your husband has stopped being a partner to you, and S2 is taking time away from how things were with you so he can be there for himself. And that sucks because where do you turn when Hubby is being such a boob? However, YOU are not a mess. Each time you write here about your conversations, I am always impressed by how you express yourself and how you are able to let your guys know what is going on with you. You are way more together than you realize, and there have been many times I've thought, "Wow, I wish I could be so clear and talk to people in my life like that," after reading a post of yours. Don't despair. Find a way to get through these hard times, look for a way to solve it, give yourself a goal - but don't beat yourself up!


Edit: I do think leaving Hubby would be good for you, by the way. There doesn't seem to be any life in your relationship with him anymore, and it is wearing you down. Take heed of some of S2's financial advice and start developing a plan, just in case.
 
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Cyndie, your post made me cry... in a good way, because I am often very hard on myself, and I don't see the good things. So thank you for what you've said.

On Friday after I dropped off Alt and Country with their father, I stopped at S2's for what was supposed to be just a quick visit; I asked that morning if I could stop by because I needed a hug. Thursday was stressful; Hubby spent $160 that we didn't have so he could buy shit for the aquarium that he'll probably lose interest in--again--after a few weeks, and partly because of that spending, I wasn't able to pay the rent that was already ten days late.

Hubby and I have a joint bank account that is supposed to be ONLY for bills, household things like groceries, and things for Alt and Country; we each have our own separate account that we're supposed to use to buy things for ourselves. He had no right to use the household account to buy his aquarium junk, and he definitely had no right to do so without checking with me first, since I'm the one who manages--or fails to manage, since he does shit like this--the household finances.

Meanwhile, I wear clothes from thrift shops because I rarely have more than $25-30 in my personal account and I use what little income I have to pay my credit card payments, while he insists on using the joint account to pay his credit card because "most of the balance is stuff I've bought for the household." (Which is true of my cards as well, but I still won't use the household money to pay them unless a payment is due and I don't have enough to cover it.) He buys clothes for himself out of the joint account because "I need them for work," but I only buy clothes out of my personal account. And when I try to talk to him about this, he tunes me out.

Yet another reason why I need to get out of here... money's an issue for me because when I was married to Alt and Country's father, he constantly spent whatever he felt like spending (we didn't have separate accounts) and then threw fits--and sometimes objects--at me when I wasn't able to pay the bills. Somehow he couldn't wrap his head around the reality that if he spent the bill money on himself, I didn't have money to pay the bills with. And the worst, scariest fights we had were about money. I can't deal with living with another man-child who can't control his impulse spending and doesn't listen when I tell him that he shouldn't be spending the bill money on himself.

Sorry. That was a long vent...

Anyway, so Friday I went to S2's for what was intended to be just a few minutes. I knew he'd had a stressful week and didn't want to impose, especially since we'd already planned to spend today together. But when I got there, he told me he wasn't going to let me go home after just a few minutes when I'd driven an hour out of my way to see him...and then we got talking, and a few minutes turned into five hours.

During the conversation, he admitted that some of my issues *were* factors in the downgrade. Specifically my anxiety and panic attacks. But he made it very clear that he knows I can't control them and that he felt guilty about them even being considerations, and he told me that I'd better not get down on myself about it. He said the main problem wasn't that I *have* the anxiety and panic attacks; it was that as my boyfriend, he didn't know how to handle them and always felt like he was letting me down by not handling them "right." I asked if that meant I should worry about those causing him to stop being my friend as well, and he said "Absolutely not. It's easier as your friend, because I don't feel as pressured about how I respond."

He also said that the attacks were just one of a number of factors in the downgrade, and that even though he understands that I'm never going to not have anxiety disorder, and that I can't always prevent the attacks, they are not a factor in whether we "re-upgrade" in the future. Especially after I told him that as far as I was concerned, he's always handled them exactly the way I need: asking me if there's anything he can do and reminding me that he's there and I'm safe. That really is all I need when I have those attacks. Just the reminder that I'm not alone.

We talked a lot that night, and he said that he's realizing that a lot of the reason for the downgrade has to do with his own fears. And from a few things he said, I've realized that a lot of the fear comes from certain expectations he has around certain words. "Love" and "relationship" are two words that have very negative connotations and memories for him, but as I pointed out to him, since we downgraded the only things that have really changed are our terminology and the fact that we aren't having sex.

We still act the same toward each other. We still spend nearly the same amount of time together, and the reason the time is a bit less has more to do with my/Country's schedule for the summer than with the change in the dynamic. And he still looks at me exactly the same as he always has. The look that says I'm the most amazing treasure in his life. The one that to me says "love," even though he'll deny it to his last breath because he can't deal with that word.

So basically, even though it hurt me to hear that my anxiety contributed to this, I feel a lot calmer and more confident about my connection with him, because in addition to pointing out the problems on my side, he acknowledged that I'm not in control of those things (and that I control the anxiety far better than he would expect; he knows that for each of the three times he's seen me have an attack, there's been several other times when I either fended it off entirely or was able to go off in private to let it out and calm down). He told me that he would be upset with me if I blamed myself, and that I should never think that he doesn't care about me and accept me exactly as I am. And he owned his own issues, fears, and concerns that also contributed.

He said that mostly, right now he's dealing with the end of his marriage and feels like that's where his energy and focus need to be. He's afraid to start a new "serious relationship" given how his marriage ended, and given how things were in the relationships he had before he met his ex-wife. He's afraid of the "relationship escalator"; he doesn't think he's ever going to want to live with someone again, even though he also says he wants more kids. (And he admits the contradiction there...) When I told him that if I leave Hubby, regardless of where things stand, I'm going to want to live on my own, he was relieved, and he said that as far as he's concerned, whether I stay with Hubby or leave and whether we're "just friends" or whatever, he wants to stay in my life.

If I do leave Hubby, it won't be for another year. I have to keep my promise to Country and Alt, which was that I wouldn't put them through another move or another divorce while they're still living with me. Country has told me that as long as I stay until she graduates and leaves for college, she's okay with the idea of me leaving Hubby. (She told me that about a year ago, and I haven't said a word to her before or since about how things are with Hubby and me. She said it because of her own issues with him, and because she isn't oblivious.) And given that I don't have a job, can't get a job, and most of the time don't even earn enough for a fast food meal from my writing; plus I have a few thousand dollars in credit card debt from using my credit cards to keep the household finances afloat; it's going to take me at least a year to come up with money for a move plus figure out how to support myself on my own. So it's a matter of lining up all of that while not letting Hubby know...and it's also a matter of keeping an open mind about his claim that he's going to make things better.

S2's financial advice was "put money aside" (which he knows I don't have any *to* put aside) and a couple of suggestions of how I might bring in more money without having to get a "real job", though I'm having trouble figuring out how to put those suggestions into practice since they essentially involve me starting a business, and I have zero capability of starting and running businesses. That isn't me being hard on myself; I've tried in the past. I don't know how to find the people and venues I need to build and promote the business, and even when I do know, I can't figure out *how* to reach out to them, what to say, how to overcome the "I can't ask them for things" issue. It's hard for me to let go of "I'm asking these people to pay me to do this for them", which is asking for something...and I was brought up to never ask anyone for anything even if it was a matter of life and death.
 
Sunday I hung out with S2 all day. His other band's rehearsal, which was supposed to be at 6 that night, was canceled, so we had even more time together than we'd planned.

Mostly it was just a quiet day. We worked on some of our music, then went out to a couple of music stores in the area. But we also followed up more on our talk from Friday.

I wrote something to show him that was basically my thoughts about the word "love," spurred by our realization that that word has some seriously negative associations for him. It was two pages of things like "Love is the hands that hold you steady and the soft voice that whispers 'I won't let you fall'" (which is a line from one of our songs; I couldn't resist throwing it into the list) and "Love is when you'd rather be hurt than hurt the other person."

After he read it, I told him that that was what I meant when I said I love him. Not the whole "relationship escalator" thing. Just the way it feels to be with him, and knowing I'm safe and can trust him. He thanked me for writing it; it made the concept less scary for him. And he also understood from it why a couple of times when we've talked about the "downgrade," I've told him that, while I won't ever say I know his feelings better than he does, I do believe he loves me. Based on the things I wrote in that list, he now gets why I said that, and he doesn't disagree. (He didn't disagree when I said it either; he acknowledged both times that I was probably right.)

I said that based on how hung up he gets on the words "love" and "relationship," plus the fact that nothing other than our amount of physical contact has really changed since we "downgraded," that I think what will be best for us is that we just say we're two people who greatly enjoy each other's company and click on more levels than some people would believe exist... and not try to define things, label them, or consider things like "downgrade" and "re-upgrade" even slightly relevant. He agreed without hesitation.

He also told me that one of the reasons he waited as long as he did to ask for the "downgrade" was fear. I said, "You were afraid you would get hurt if I didn't accept it?" He said, "No. I wasn't afraid of that at all. I was afraid of hurting *you*, because that's the last thing I ever want to do."

(Did I mention one of the things I put on that "thoughts about love" list was "Love is when you'd rather be hurt than hurt the other person"?)

Meanwhile, I talked to Hubby the other night, since it was his day off and Alt and Country were still with their dad. I told him that I know he says he wants the marriage to work, but I don't know whether it can anymore. And I admitted to him that I've strongly considered leaving next year and have even decided where I want to go if that happens. I said I don't want to close off the possibility that things will get better, but that it seems like every time things start to get better they get worse again. And I told him I want to be happy, I deserve to be happy, and I'm finally going to stand up for my right to be happy.

He said, "Thank you for telling me that. I know you think we're not working, but as long as you're talking to me and telling me what's on your mind, I think we are."

He doesn't get it... or he doesn't want to get it. But as I told him, I don't like lying and I don't like pretending, and it was better to say this to him now than to keep pretending that things are getting better or that I believe they're going to.
 
S2 told me last night that he has a date next weekend.

I don't really know how to feel about that. His AFF profile says he's "taking a break." He told me he doesn't want to date right now or be in a relationship.

But he has a date next weekend, which he says is happening because *she* asked *him*. Which... okay, I do know that he doesn't always know how to say "no" in a situation like that. He's agreed to things with me in the past that he wasn't really sure about, because he didn't want to hurt my feelings.

But to me... if you're on a break from dating and someone asks you for a date, you just say "Sorry, I'm not dating right now." They either accept it or they don't, but it's not your problem.

He apologized to me for it. He said he wanted to be honest with me, and he was angry with himself for hurting me--again--and that he isn't even sure he wants to go on the date or will want to see her again.

That doesn't make it better.

We talked about it a lot last night, and I was okay with it. I know some of what's going on in his head. I know he's afraid of getting too involved with me, and that was one of the reasons for him backing down... not because of *me*, but because of *involvement*. And he even said that no matter how this date goes, she's not going to be "better" than me (my phrasing, not his) and he's not ever going to find anyone he clicks with as much as me.

That doesn't make it better either. Last night, I felt confident that even if he goes on this date, things are still going to be okay between him and me. Today the depression is hitting, and I'm not so sure.

Today I want to tell him to go to hell, to stop stringing me the fuck along and make up his goddamn mind. But he isn't the one stringing me along, really; he keeps saying "nothing's off the table" between us and keeps giving me hope that we'll eventually go back to the way things were, but I'm the one choosing to stick it out. I'm doing this to myself, and I kind of hate myself for it, but at the same time he's the most consistently good thing in my life.

Which doesn't say much about my life. The longest relationship I've had was my abusive first marriage. The healthiest relationship I've had is whatever the fuck this thing is with S2. That doesn't say much either.

He told me a couple weeks ago not to let him hold me back from seeing other people if that's what I want, but that isn't what I want. Anyone else is just going to hurt me and/or fuck me over, because that's what always happens, so why take a chance on it happening again? Better I just give up now... except part of me can't give up.

A couple of things he said last night stood out to me, though...

He said that he really doesn't know what he wants, and that he is afraid when it comes to having a relationship with me because of what the concept of "relationship" means to him... but that he feels like going on this date will be good for *us* because it will help him clarify some of his own thoughts and will give him an idea of what it would be like with someone else.

He asked me if he really looks at me sometimes like I'm the most amazing, valuable thing he's ever had in his life (which was a follow-up from my "thoughts about love" list that I showed him on Sunday), and when I said yes, sometimes he does, he said, "Good, because you are."

And he said when he downgraded, he was afraid he was fucking up the best thing he's ever had in his life by risking losing me, and that he's glad I'm still around.

So I don't know. I'm just hurt, and part of me feels like he's been dishonest by saying he's on a break from dating and then turning around and accepting a date. That's my issue, though, more than his, because it's a component of my problems trusting others.

He might not even go on the date. He might find that she isn't someone he wants to spend more time with. He's met her; she isn't from AFF, she's someone one of his friends introduced to him because they thought he should date someone, and he wasn't aware they were going to do that until they did. And I guess he didn't tell me they'd done it because he didn't intend to ask her out; he's going out with her because she asked him. He told me he's seen a couple of "yellow flags" with her already that make him think it isn't going to go anywhere, but he said that while trying to comfort me, so I don't know how sincere it was vs. how much it was him either trying to make me feel better or trying to talk himself out of seeing her so he wouldn't upset me.

I knew this was going to happen, and I'd warned him that it wouldn't be easy for me and that I probably would be sad or upset or cry or something. I also told him, and reminded him last night, that regardless of how I feel about it, I want him to be happy, and if having a date with someone else makes him happy, so be it.

He said, "That isn't fair to you. It isn't fair for you to be unhappy so I can be happy."

I said, "It wouldn't be fair to you if you didn't do something you wanted just to keep me from being unhappy. There isn't a way for this to happen that wouldn't be unfair to one of us, and it might as well be me."

He didn't like that.. but he didn't really have a response.
 
FWIW, I've been in the position of accepting a date with someone I didn't really want to go on solely because it was setup by a mutual friend and I didn't want to hurt the friend's feelings or put them in an awkward position after they had "talked me up" so well to this person. There were no sparks, no chemistry, no attraction, but at least I could say to my friend that I went and then thank them for thinking of me. My friend felt she'd done her part because that was during a period when I had given all my friends the go-ahead to fix me up if they knew anyone.

For that reason, I couldn't back out. It just may be that this friend had no clue that S2 had decided not to date anyone and they thought they were doing something nice for him. If S2 wants his friends not to fix him up, he needs to tell them "no thanks." I once wanted to fix up a neighbor of mine with a friend, and my neighbor just said, "Oh, sorry, I don't do fix-ups." Maybe that hadn't occurred to S2 to say that.
 
Yeah, and like I said, I know he has trouble saying no. He didn't know his friends were planning to fix him up, and I don't think it occurred to him to consider going on a date with this woman until she asked. I doubt he would have asked her, though I can't say so for sure and don't want to ask.

I'm feeling better, at least. The last couple of days were a perfect storm of depression, anxiety, stress, and fear, and it didn't help that I asked S2 a yes or no (or "I don't know") question about our status and he gave me some rambling thing about not thinking in absolutes...which in the depression, I interpreted to mean my worst case scenario was true and he was just being too nice to say so. And then I realized that I don't have anyone I could talk to, which added loneliness go the mix. Fortunately yesterday was my counseling day...

But today was good. Hubby was working at the company's satellite location, meaning he had a boat at his disposal and wasn't likely to have to do any jobs. So I spent several hours out on the boat with him. He said S2's non-answer yesterday sounded to him like it meant my worst case scenario was NOT true, and agreed that S2 going on the date was probably S2 not wanting to hurt the woman's feelings. He also pointed out that going on *a* date isn't the same as dating.

We talked a lot about the marriage as well, and this time I was left feeling positive and like progress was being made. However, it might be progress toward separation, not toward keeping the marriage together. We agreed that we love each other, and when we aren't stressed or angry we like spending time together, but there are some fundamental issues in the marriage that stem from our needs and personalities clashing, and that might be something we can't fix and shouldn't try. It isn't really fair to expect each other to completely change, or to force ourselves to act in a way that doesn't fit.

We didn't really solve or answer anything. He told me he's afraid we won't stay together, but when I said maybe we could do a hybrid thing where we live separately but still spend at least a couple days a week together, like when we were dating, he seemed to like the idea. Nothing will change until Country leaves for college anyway. It seems strange to say we were working together better when the topic was separating, but that was how it felt. And by the time he brought me back to shore, I actually felt happy.

Then when i was on the way home, inspired by a photo I'd texted S2 during the boat ride ( with Hubby's knowledge), I was treated to a half hour pun exchange with S2. I kept having to pull over to see his texts and respond, because it was the type of conversation we used to have, completely playing off each other with no hesitation.

So yeah...I'm feeling good now. Like maybe things will actually be okay.
 
So S2's out on his date today. The "fear everything" part of me is afraid that when I see him again, he'll tell me he's decided to pursue a relationship with this other woman and won't have time to hang out with me.

The "I hate dishonesty" part of me doesn't actually give a shit.

When I saw him Wednesday night, he admitted that he'd been dishonest about some of the aspects of backing off with me. Or at least not fully honest. The night he asked if we could back down to platonic, he said the "romantic passion" was lacking and that something felt "off", but then said he believed things felt that way because of what was going through his mind.

Wednesday, he said something indicating that he would be open to a relationship/ongoing dating with the woman he's out with today, and when I called him on it, he started his usual "I don't know what I want" stuff. I said either he's on a break from relationships or he's on a break from me and needs to be up front about which, and I reminded him he'd said that with me, it was more his own fears and the stuff going on in his personal life.

He said, "I thought it was, but the more time has gone by, the more I think maybe things were just off between us. But I don't know."

I told him he'd been dishonest by not telling me that, and by letting me go on believing that it was more him than me. And I told him that by going on this date, he's being dishonest and I don't know whether it's to himself, me, or the other woman, or some combination. All he could say was "I'm sorry. I was trying so hard not to hurt you." I reminded him that he knows dishonesty is my breaking point, and he just whispered, "I'm so sorry."

Right now, I want to tell him to go fuck himself. Last fall when I told him I loved him, he said "likewise," but then a few months ago when I asked if he loved me, he said "Part of me does, but part of me can't say that." When he asked for the "downgrade," he said something felt off but he thought it was because he had so much else going on, and now he says he thinks it was something just not fitting between him and me.

He was the one person in my life who I actually trusted, and now I can't believe anything he says, because I'm never going to know for sure if he's telling me the truth or sugar-coating it to save my feelings--or to cover his own ass. I have trust issues. He knows I have trust issues. He promised he would always be honest with me, even if he was afraid I would be hurt, and from my perspective, he's broken that promise.

I know that he wasn't necessarily being *deliberately* dishonest. What he said in both of the above cases, he might have believed to be true at the time, and then as time passed, he realized they weren't. Or they actually *were* true at the time and then things changed. But he didn't fill me in on the change, if it was a change, even though he knew that I believed what wasn't true, and to me that isn't any more honest than outright lying.

We're supposed to get together tomorrow. He texted me this morning to say he might have to go see his brother's mother-in-law, who's just been placed in hospice and is deteriorating, and that he would let me know when he's home tomorrow. Even though I know he has a family relationship with the mother-in-law because he's mentioned her off and on in the past, and even though he told me a few weeks ago that she was hospitalized and had been given only a short time to live (and he went to visit her then), I can't help wondering if he's really going to see her tomorrow or if he just told me that so he would have the groundwork laid for an excuse to not see me depending on how things go with his date.

I hate thinking that way. I hate questioning whether he would even do something like that, but right now, I can't help it.

I don't know if I'm persevering with this because I love him and believe we can hold onto some kind of connection, whether friendship or more, or because our lives have become so entwined over the past year that I can't even remember everything I would have to do to cut him out. We have the band, with two singles released; I would have to pull those. He's given me music to use in videos to promote my books; I don't know whether I would have to take down those videos or not. I adore his sons, and Country keeps asking when she's going to get to see them again.

I posted in my thread in the Relationships section that I was probably going to ask him for a couple weeks break so he and I would both have time to think... and I'm terrified that if I do that, it will be completely over whether I want it to be or not. Because even though I'm hurting, even though I can't trust him (which makes him no different from anyone else who's ever been in my life)... I don't have anyone else to spend time with. Hubby and I sometimes go a day or two without even seeing each other, and when we are in the same space, we don't really interact or we argue. The boat ride he took me on last weekend was the most time we'd spent together without arguing or getting uncomfortable since... I don't even remember when.

I don't have any friends who I actually see. My kids and I visited my sister-in-law, her fiance, and their new baby last weekend, and she told me I could turn to her any time, and come visit whenever I wanted if she was home... but I can't talk to her about S2 or about half of the other things in my life because I've promised Hubby I won't talk to anyone in his family about them. And it's awkward as hell for me to be around someone I have to hide things from. I have enough trouble holding conversations, because I'm in a constant mental loop of "Am I talking too much? Not enough? Did I already say this? Did I miss something they said?" Having to remember what I'm not supposed to say makes it even more difficult.

This probably makes me pathetic as hell, but one of the reasons I've hung onto things with S2 this long is that he wants to be around me. He tells me every time he sees me how happy I make him. How I'm one of the few people he actually wants to spend time with. The other night, he told me I'm on the "short list of people other than family who I would literally take a bullet for." He's been saying that kind of thing all along, so I'm more inclined to believe it than the things he's said lately... but maybe that's just because I'm used to not being loved or wanted, and when someone says or implies that they care and want me around, I want to believe it.

If I don't have him in my life, I only have a husband who flat out told me he doesn't care if I leave next year or not, and two kids who care that I'm around because I do things for them. And no one else. And that scares me more than anything.
 
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Thank you.

Yesterday I went on another boat ride with Hubby. He said he didn't mean he wouldn't *care* if I leave him, just that he wouldn't stop me because he believes in complete autonomy, meaning that in his mind, it wouldn't be his place to try to keep me with him if I didn't want to be here.

To me, it would make more sense to try to convince someone to stay if they wanted to leave, or at least make it clear that you'd like them to stay...But he's always believed in "You're my wife, not my property, do what you want"... which is part of the reason behind the polyamory. It doesn't always please him, but he won't stop me from doing what I feel is right for me.

At least it was another positive day for us, and he kept telling me how glad he was to have me there with him. Bonus points that we had to tow a customer to a marina where some of the boats from the TV show "Wicked Tuna" are moored, so I got to see a couple of those boats in person. I haven't watched the show for a while, but I used to love it because I was familiar with the area where the people on the show fish. For those who haven't heard of it, "Wicked Tuna" is a reality show about bluefin tuna fishermen based mostly in Gloucester, Massachusetts.

It was nice being on the water, but I was still having trouble setting aside my thoughts about what's going on with S2. I haven't heard from him yet today, but it's only 8:30 in the morning, and he said he would text me when he got home from seeing his brother's mother-in-law, or whatever it is he's doing today.

I'm fairly convinced at this point that when I see him, he's going to be all apologetic and shit and tell me that he's decided to pursue a relationship with the woman he went out with yesterday and so won't be able to spend time with me anymore. Even though he has claimed in the past to be poly...and even though he and I are "just friends" right now anyway... and even though he's told me many times that he can't see not wanting me in his life at all because I'm too important to him... I can't believe any of that right now.

A lot of it's the depression, because I'm conditioned to believe the worst-case scenario is what's going to happen until I'm proven wrong. When I'm afraid, and when I don't have information about a situation, my mind immediately fills in the blanks with the worst possible outcome. And I have a hell of an imagination, so sometimes those blank-filling thoughts seem as real as what's in front of my face. I know I've felt this way with him before, though, so I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'm hoping he actually will text me to tell me he's home, and I'll go over there and things will be okay. I don't believe that's what's going to happen, but it is what I'm hoping.

But then again, I still don't know if things *can* be okay, because I'm still having trouble getting past knowing he was dishonest with me. And he probably will be again. And if he's as wishy-washy as he's been lately, and can't look me in the eye and admit anything about what he's thinking or feeling, I don't know if I'll be able to be even friends with him.

Too much depends on what happens today, because I don't know anything more until I see him and talk to him. Which sucks, because my mind/depression has already decided that I *do* know and it's not good. So I'm fighting those thoughts and trying to get some work done to keep my mind off of him.
 
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