New to Poly Relationships, Looking for Advice

Drakkaras

New member
Hello all,

This is the first time I've ever posted here. I'm new to poly relationships (been dabbling for the last 6 months or so). I'm male and currently married to my amazing wife, who I have known for the last 10 years. The poly relationships we are currently developing are with another M/F couple, who have about 5-6 years of experience functioning as a poly couple. At this time, my wife and the other woman share a full relationship, without any emotional, physical, or sexual restrictions. They are able to express their feelings for each other openly, and have been sexual both in and out of my presence.

My concerns arise due to the nature of my relationship with the woman in the other couple. While the basis for her relationship with my wife is mostly physical attraction, she and I share a VERY strong emotional connection. We have similar backgrounds, similar life stories, and similar personalities. In the 10 years I have spent with my wife up to this point, this is the first time I have felt such a strong connection to another woman, and absolutely the first time I have fostered it and allowed it to grow. I have made it very clear that I am interested in building a relationship with her, and she feels the same towards me.

Over the last 6 months, I have done a lot of personal growth in regards to my self-esteem and confidence, which has really helped me to be open to my wife being involved in relationships with other people. At this point, I am open to my wife being in a relationship with the man in this couple. They are both very clearly attracted to each other, and they have both stated they would like to pursue such a relationship. But here's the problem: the man in the other couple has never before been open to his wife being physically involved with another man.

In the 5 years of experience they have so far, all of their poly relationships were with other women. He claims that this is the first time he has ever even seriously considered the possibility of opening their relationship to male partners, and that me being who I am is the impetus behind that. He knows that his wife is very interested in me, and I her, and he states he wants to get to a point where is comfortable with the idea. He is demonstrating this through open discussion with the 3 of us, reading poly literature, and has recently begun meeting with a poly-friendly therapist to try and work through the block he has. I honestly do believe that he is doing his best to make this work.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it...), the 4 of us were spending time together a couple of weeks ago and we all had a bit much to drink. As per usual, my wife and the other woman were fooling around and he and I were enjoying the show. Also as per usual, she and I flirted, as did he and my wife. But then suddenly, completely unexpectedly, he suggests that we all go upstairs to their bedroom. He walks up next to me and says "I'm trying to get to a place where I am comfortable with you and she kissing. Would you be ok if that's all that happens tonight?" I agreed and told him that whatever he was okay with is what I was okay with. We proceeded upstairs and she and I started kissing. Being severely intoxicated and with months of pent up lust, it was a very passionate encounter and I recall enjoying it very much. However, in the midst of the 4 of us all interacting, her shirt came down (by no act of mine) and exposed her breasts. He immediately became agitated and got out of the bed. He said "I'm not ready for this. I'm sorry." and started to get his things together to leave the room. In the aftermath, his wife was left sobbing while my wife tried to console her, and I simply sat on the bed in utter confusion and despair. Suffice to say, this was not how I imagined our initial sexual encounter going... I later found out that he had thought I was the one who had removed her shirt, causing him to feel intense anger towards his wife for allowing that to happen, as well as anger at me for, seemingly, betraying his trust.

We have talked about what happened, made it past that misstep, and have been enjoying each other's company regularly over the last couple of weeks. The 4 of us have gone on a date together, and we continue to talk daily, both as a group and individually. Luckily, that moment of confusion did not derail our relationship or friendship.

Long story short, I am feeling very conflicted right now. Being new to the poly lifestyle, I have been doing some reading of my own (starting with More Than Two by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert) and have seen multiple references to things that "do not work" in poly relationships. One of the main offenders appears to be this idea of control or "veto" power in deciding how and when your partner is able to interact with other partners. I can see the damage this is causing for us, but I know that none of us will be comfortable furthering these relationships (my wife and he, his wife and I) until he is able to overcome this mental block he has...

My feelings for her continue to grow and we talk on a daily basis. I can't just "hit pause" and stop the relationship from developing. I want to tell her how I feel about her and put it all out there, but I'm terrified that in doing so, I will upset this delicate balance we have all struck. I want to be patient and see this through, but I worry that if I don't speak up now and tell her how I feel, she will think that my feelings have changed. I want to be honest with her. I see her at least twice a week when we work out together, and we typically spend a couple of evenings together every month as a group.

Any suggestions/advice/wisdom/experiences you would be willing to share that might help me to sort this all out would be greatly appreciated. As I mentioned, I am new to this, and not sure of where to go from here. Thank you in advance.
 
All I can tell you is that you need to progress very slowly and at his pace. I have been where you are and it sucks. There are few things as frustrating as having external forces dictate and control your relationship with another human being. In my situation the woman and I basically got tired of it and basically gave our spouses the middle finger and did what we wanted. It was a horrible and selfish move on our part and we regret it now. You have some problems here.

1. you're trying to set up a quad, they are inherently unstable
2. let's suppose the four of you manage to have full blown no restrictions relationships with the other spouse....what happens if one of you breaks up? Is the other relationship automatically suppose to end to keep things "even"?
3. don't be afraid to express your feelings to her, just be aware that your relationship is controlled by her husband
4. its good that he's seeing a therapist and seems willing to put in the work to help see this through...in my case the other husband was in denial and refused to do the work instead he used it as an opportunity to try and compete with me for his wives affections, he lost miserably...our friendship is over as is my relationship with her as a lover
 
I don't understand the hesitation to tell your gf (?) how you feel toward her. The problem with her husband is that he is fearful of the sexual side of your relationship, right? Perhaps by sharing your deepening feelings and introducing more non-sexual acts of love and respect to her, your wife, and even him, her husband will understand that you are not trying to take anything from them or their relationship? It's helpful that he is already open to what has transpired so far. I agree with you, though, that regardless of what happens, veto power is detrimental. Taking it slow is reasonable but even that can have its limits eventually.
 
@graviton,

To address your concerns specifically:

1. I don't know a whole lot about how these things typically work, but the quad you are referring to seems very comfortable for all of us, with things as they currently are. I can't tell the future, but I can foresee that, if he becomes open to the idea of his wife and I being in a relationship without limitations, it is likely we could break off into pairs rather than always functioning as a group of 4. I just think that he is not in a place, mentally, where he is able to accept that relationship at the time. I can understand how four individuals, all with their own relationships between each other, could be very unstable.

2. Echoes the point above in most ways... I don't think the intention is that it remains this way forever, just until such a time that he is comfortable with the two of us having our own, separate relationship. If one of the relationships was to end, I honestly don't know how the others would be affected - we aren't in a place to discuss this right now as even the committed relationship between she and I is only hypothetical at this point. A good subject to bring up if things do develop though...

3. I've been a bit more expressive over the last couple of days and have openly told her how I feel about her. It's no secret to anyone that I'm attracted to her, but I found myself repressing those feelings before. I'm tired of lying to myself and to her and I intend to be more open about how I feel than I have been in the past. As for her husband being in control of how things develop, that is an unavoidable fact at this time. Neither she nor I would be willing to damage their marital relationship by going outside of his comfort zone right now.

4. I very sincerely appreciate the effort he is making in trying to get past this block he has. I know he is doing everything he can to work on himself and, by extension, his relationship issues. I know I can't rush this process, it's just becoming difficult for me to feel like I can't express my affection towards her as it continues to grow each day.

Thank you for the guidance. I appreciate you being willing to share your own experiences in a similar situation.
 
@laerhk,

My hesitation comes from confusion regarding where we stand currently. I would not refer to her as my "girlfriend", if only because that would imply a specific kind of relationship that her husband is not open to at this time. I have very strong feelings for her and I want to express them, not only verbally, but physically and emotionally. It's been a long time since I have felt this way about another person and it's very euphoric and exciting to me!

Your point about expressing my love in non-sexual ways is very helpful. I compliment her, make flirty comments, minor physical touching, things of that nature. He seems to be ok with these acts of affection. It does seem that, with the more time the four of us spend together, he is realizing more and more that I am not just trying to get into his wife's pants and that I genuinely care about her as a person, not just a sex object. My intentions are not entirely pure, of course, because I am ridiculously physically attracted to her and the sexual tension is high. But I think he knows that I want something more than just a physical relationship with her and that she is very special to me.

I understand his desire to "take it slow", as up until recently, I had always been against the idea of opening my relationship to other people. Over the last 10 years, my wife has brought up the idea multiple times. She is a very sexual person and has always been interested in having multiple partners and experiencing sex with different people. Every other time the idea of another man being involved was brought up, I would immediately be hit with a feeling of nausea and wanted to jump out of my skin. I only overcame these fears through doing some self-work of my own, increasing my self-confidence, and realizing that the relationship I have with my wife is leagues beyond anything she could have with another man. So, it was not long ago that I was in the same boat he now finds himself in. I just think he is feeling a lot of pressure because the remaining three of us are all very much on board and want to see our relationships develop. Not to mention that he is attracted to my wife and is holding himself back out of fear that anything he does with her must also be permitted between his wife and I.

I really appreciate the reply and I will try to find more non-sexual ways to express my affection for her in hopes that it will demonstrate my intent to him. Thank you.
 
Best wishes and let us know how it goes!
 
Maybe the husband of the other couple needs to be "romanced," too. No, I don't mean coming on to him in a sexual way, but just keeping up with and/or developing the friendship you two have. I don't know what you're into, but whether it would be going out to watch a game and throwing back a few beers at a sports bar, working on some home project together (building or renovating something?), or checking out (for instance) a car show, a local poly meeting, or a cool museum, etc. -- without the wives and without the atmosphere of sex -- maybe he would appreciate having his own friendly relationship with you. He would get to know you better, hopefully begin to trust you more, and be more able to talk to you. I think befriending him more would help him get comfy with the idea of you and his wife being together if he sees that it isn't all about getting sex from her. Though, you have to make sure that if you ask him to get together with you that it is genuine, to do something you really think you and he would enjoy, and not a manipulation or set up just to get what you want.

I also think that this:
Every other time the idea of another man being involved was brought up, I would immediately be hit with a feeling of nausea and wanted to jump out of my skin. I only overcame these fears through doing some self-work of my own, increasing my self-confidence, and realizing that the relationship I have with my wife is leagues beyond anything she could have with another man. So, it was not long ago that I was in the same boat he now finds himself in. I just think he is feeling a lot of pressure because the remaining three of us are all very much on board and want to see our relationships develop. Not to mention that he is attracted to my wife and is holding himself back out of fear that anything he does with her must also be permitted between his wife and I.
... would be an important piece of information you could share with him. Everyone appreciates empathy. If he doesn't already know that you have been through the same kind of fear and trepidation he is feeling now, he should be told, IMHO. However, I wouldn't put it to him that what you have with your wife is "leagues beyond" any other relationships she could have (just sounds kinda harsh), but just that what you have with her is stable and loving enough to be able to handle it.
 
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@nycindie,

Thank you for the reply. I really like your suggestion. Honestly, I view the man in this couple as a great friend and he and I do have many interests in common. I haven't really considered the idea of spending time together, just he and I, as friends with everything else that has been going on. But now that you mention it, I think that could be a lot of fun and could remove some of the pressure he feels when we are all together. I'm going to give it a shot!

And as for my own experiences in coming to terms with a M/F open relationship with my wife, I have discussed it with him before and attempted to connect on that level. His personal issues with it seem to be somewhat different from my own, but I think he appreciated knowing that I'm not really that far ahead of him in this regard.

Thanks again!
 
Hi Drakkaras, welcome to the board!

You may find, reading around this board, there are not that many well functioning triads or quads around in poly-land.

Much more common are Vs, where one person is a hinge between two lovers. Those 2 lovers are called metamours in poly parlance. The metamours may or may not be friends. They might, in fact, never meet. At the very least, the metamours must be polite and respectful to each other.

Also extremely common is men fearing their female partners dating/fucking other men. Most men love the idea of 2 women having sex, watching, maybe getting to be in the sandwich. But bring another cock into the situation and all hell breaks loose. Men's fragile egos collapse imagining the other man has a bigger dick, better sex skills, has a better job, a fancier car, is taller, etc. It turns into a competition.

You've been through that earlier so you know exactly what he is going through, so you're a bit ahead of the game.

Obviously his attempt, while you were all shit-faced, to let you kiss his wife was a spectacular failure. Don't do that.

NYCindie's idea for you to spend more time reassuring the husband might help. If you're sincere. Make sure you're not just "buttering him up" to get to fuck his wife.

But, despite your sincere friendship, face it, you probably will be.

It's kind of sickening.

I'd step back from this woman for a bit. Allow her husband some breathing room. Allow HER to reassure her husband. I know that will be hard for both you and her. NRE makes one want to spend ALL the time with the new love object, and it's extremely hard not to think with the genitals.

But we are grownups here, not green teenagers. Sometimes we have to postpone immediate gratification for long term rewards.
 
@magdlyn,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the suggestions and advice you offered. The four of us had a fairly in-depth conversation last night following the male friend's second session with his therapist. He opened up a lot about how he is feeling, his fears, his doubts, realistic expectations he has about how, and how quickly, he thinks this will develop. It was very refreshing. I opened up as well and shared many of my concerns I have discussed so far in this thread. I think it was a great moment of growth for us, not just as two men who are potentially going to share partners, but simply as friends. He and I are planning to go out to get coffee this weekend and talk more in person about what we are thinking and feeling regarding the situation. Interestingly, neither he nor I are what you might call a "traditional" male, we were both raised in homes where, for one reason or another, that form of the "macho" male role model was not involved in our lives. As I stated prior, my intentions are not entirely pure, as I am very physically attracted to his wife, but more than anything else, I just want to do anything and everything I can to make her happy and to see her smile. It's more than just a sexual desire. And I've been patient for the last 6 months as this has developed, I plan to continue and see this through to whatever it may, or may not, become.
 
Hi Drakkaras,

FWIW, I find your situation to be very hopeful, as everyone is making good efforts to get along, and the man in this other couple is making good efforts to get past any blockages he may have.

If he's only had two therapy sessions so far, I would say we are very early in the game, and there is lots more to be learned and discovered. Develop a zen state of mind about the whole thing and make patience your middle name. This can really work out well as long as no one gets in too much of a hurry. Enjoy the journey and let the destination choose its own time.

Will be following your thread and looking forward to your updates.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
@kdt26417,

Thank you for the encouraging words. I'm still new to all of this, but most of the responses I've received so far regarding the feasibility of this setup have been less than inspiring. I really appreciate the positivity that you are offering.

Call it naivete, but I do have a great deal of hope that this can work, as long as we are all patient, considerate, and willing to be open regarding our thoughts and feelings throughout the process. I can honestly say that my decision to open up my relationship to this point has not been out of desire for uninhibited sexual exploration, to compensate for issues in my own marriage, or to seek out new partners. It has been solely because of my feelings for these two individuals. I am naturally a very patient, understanding, and empathetic person (I am a practicing psychotherapist). I am more than willing to be as patient as is needed for our relationship to run its course :)

Thanks again for your response,

Drakkaras
 
No problem dude ... Keep your chin up there.
 
Nothing to worry about...

Hey Everyone...

Give the poor guy some hope. Maybe quads are rare but I am living proof that they are successful with the right amount of patience and understanding.

They are all in a new complex relationship... its takes time for people to figure things out. The natural dynamic of the group will move things along at its own pace.

As long as things are equal, there is honest communication, boundaries are clearly defined and everyone stays true to those boundaries, everything will work out.

~S
 
From what I have seen, I do believe quads actually have a better chance than triads!

I've see the same thing. I think it's always more complicated when people insist on dating as couples rather than dating individually, but I've seen far more successful quads than triads.
 
Just wanted to post an update for all of you who have been so helpful thus far:

In the interest of clarity, I will be referring to the following people with letters going forward - my wife = "R", other man = "M", and other woman = "G".

Anyway, M and I agreed to meet up and have a conversation about how things are progressing and sort of "reboot" following the events of the drunken evening. He seemed very open to this idea. Both of us were very nervous to discuss the situation in person, but I had some important questions I needed to ask him for my own clarity. The discussion went very well (we were expecting maybe 30 min, turned into 2 hours) and I got a better understanding of where he is coming from, his biggest fears in all of this, and where his boundaries currently lie in my relationship with G. I hadn't really realized the extent to which this process had been effecting M until this discussion... It seems like he is thinking about it almost constantly and driving himself crazy with all of the "what ifs" that might occur. He did say that he has asked his therapist to meet weekly rather than bi-weekly, as he had been up until now. Sessions seem to be going really well!

Essentially, M confirmed that he is comfortable with flirting, cuddling, non-sexual physical touching, and open communication about feelings between the two of us. This was a great relief to me, as I have been opting for minimal expression of affection over the last few weeks in order to err on the side of caution. I feel much better knowing where we all stand. He did state that he is going to get jealous, he is going to get upset, and that some days will be easier for him than others, but that it is important that he sees my expressions of love for G and that he has the opportunity to process his own feelings about them. It would seem that is the only way for him to become more comfortable with the idea of us being together.

After our discussion, the four of us (and a few others) got together for a Game Night. We all had a lot of fun and refrained from getting TOO drunk this time lol. We spent the night, sleeping separately, and then went to breakfast with M + G and their kids. It was a really great day, and I felt so welcomed by the family. I don't communicate with my own family very often, so feeling like I belonged here was an amazing feeling for me. Zero problems, and everyone seemed happy and content. It was a very nice weekend.

I spent some time with G yesterday, as I typically do, to workout together. It was slightly awkward at first, as we hadn't really talked much about my conversation with M, but after I broke the ice things felt much more comfortable. It was the first time I've really felt like I could totally be myself around her and express my feelings openly. It was wonderful! I'm not in a rush to see a sexual relationship develop right now, so I am just ecstatic to be able to be a little more open and physical than I had been previously.

One other thing that really freaked me out - M referred to me as G's "boyfriend" during our conversation... I would never have assumed that title, mostly out of fear of how he might react, but it seems he is coming around to the idea more every day. I am very hopeful for what the future might hold!
 
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Good for you! It's amazing what a conversation can do, isn't it? That can be all it takes, sometimes, to go from being seen as competition to becoming an ally. I bet that both M and G are also feeling relieved, more grounded, and less scattered or uncertain than before, just as you do.

Yay!
 
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I prefer nicknames to initials. Initials aren't that much better than saying "my wife", "her boyfriend", "my girlfriend." I think there is a suggestion to use nicknames in our User Guidelines.

Luckily you called the guy M, so I read it as Male. You called your gf G, so I read it as Girl. And your wife is R... can we get a nickname?

Glad he is comfortable with you "non sexually" cuddling Girl. I get horny when I cuddle someone I am attracted to. You don't? I like cuddling AFTER sex.

My girlfriend miss pixi, however, can contentedly cuddle even if it's been weeks since we've had sex (which happens sometimes when her anxiety issues kick in). So I know it is possible.
 
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