Advice on opening up for romance rather than casual sexual experiences?

doglover0217

New member
This boards have been so immensely helpful! I thought I would put another situation out there.

Relationship context:
I am in a V with Red and Blue. Red is the hinge. Red and Blue have been together for 9 years. They began closed then opened up their relationship because Red identifies as bisexual and they have very different sex drives (that's an oversimplification, but will have to do for now). When they originally opened up, it was mostly for casual sexual experiences, but there were a few times they found themselves in similar triad or V situations (though often short-lived).

When Red met me, the dynamic shifted and they both made space for me in their relationship. We were originally more of a triad, but it has since evolved to a distinct V. This is my first dabble into non-monogomy. Red and I have discussed on several occasions that I eventually want to branch out and seek a relationship with a woman (as opposed to casual sex in group settings or threesomes with Red). Red has been supportive but is worried that if I make space for someone else that it will take away from my relationship with him.

I haven't always been secure in my relationship with Red; when we began seeing each other I had a very difficult time processing if he had solo experiences or experiences with Blue. I felt easily replaceable and insecure, but over time and with the help of resources like this forum and the different literature available on polyamory, I have been able to let go of those feelings.

Over the last few months I've drastically changed my approach to our dynamic. First, I've let go of the idea that our relationship has to be a TRIAD to work. I spent a lot of time worrying about Blue and Red's relationship and how I felt that Blue wasn't doing enough to contribute. I would feel bitter if I felt like he wasn't helping me support Red during difficult times, and I would feel extra pressure to spend more energy on my relationship with Red. I reached a boiling point and let all that negativity go. I redirected that wasted energy on self-care and checking in with myself about something I've been wanting but haven't had the capacity for -- a relationship with a woman. Throughout this my relationship with Red has been stable with a few small hiccups here and there.

The question:
Red is going on a business trip and we sat down to have a conversation last night about what we are and are not comfortable during the trip. I told Red I'm fine with whatever he wants to do. His goals almost entirely revolve around fun sexual experiences. He doesn't have an interest in pursuing more romantic partners; he has two partners (we can be a handful) and doesn't have the space to have another, but really enjoys the freedom to have sexual experiences outside the relationship (whether Blue and/or I are involved, though he prefers if one of us is involved).

We set up check in procedures and expectations on communication and level of detail. We also checked in as to what Red is looking for in terms of gender, sexuality, as well the ideal frequency throughout the duration of the trip. I basically said "Do whatever you want, check in when you can, fewer details are better, and use protection." I honestly mean those things and I want him to have the freedom to truly go after the things he wants, and I don't want him worried about my ability to cope or handle anything.

The conversation went a lot less smoothly when it shifted to me. I expressed to Red that I'm primarily seeking solo connections/experiences with girls, either as casual sexual experiences or with the possibility of dating in search of something a more than casual.

As our discussion progressed, Red expressed worry that if I start searching for something more relationshippy while he is gone, it might translate to me splitting my efforts when he gets back. I tried to express to him that this is a great opportunity for me to test the waters and see what I have the capacity for, and emphasized that this is something I've brought up repeatedly through the relationship. I said that he has two partners with deep intense connections that satisfy different needs and wants, and that there is a part of me that wants to explore with women and be open to having the similar freedom as him. He then said that his main worry is that adding another partner will interfere or negatively impact my time with him, as it would cut into quality time and there may be times I have to choose whether to do something with him or her. I told him that I have been open to the things that he wants and am giving him free reign while he's traveling (and even when he's not traveling), and he said that he is having a hard time processing because I haven't persisted and pushed for what I want so therefore he hasn't had adequate time to process and get used to it. He also stated that in an ideal world I would include him in experiences with girls. I'm having a very difficult time conveying to him that this is something that I want for myself, and that it's not because I don't want him involved (per se) but because I really just want this for myself.

We had to pause the conversation there with the intent to continue it tonight or tomorrow.

The issue:
I'm struggling with getting through to him that what we seek out of this relationship is different. He wants more fun sexual adventures, but I want to branch out and try to have something similar to him -- multiple romantic partners. I think there's a glaring double standard here and that it's unfair of him to expect openness and acceptance from me, both when it comes to sexual experiences and his relationship with Blue. I'm also having a hard time understanding where he's coming from altogether when I have been accepting of the freedoms he's asked for but my requests are being met with such resistance.

Side note:
Blue also engages mostly in casual experiences rather than pursuing romantic partners. Red may be having trouble because it's a request that hasn't been asked of him before be a partner, despite him having asked for it when he wanted to date me beyond casual sex.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can better discuss this with him when we resume talks tonight or tomorrow? My perception of the double standard is making it difficult for me to tackle this because I automatically take a defensive stance and get frustrated that he can't see that it's a double standard.
 
Hi doglover0217,

Red is definitely trying to hold you to a double standard; if he should be able to be able to have two serious partners (you and Blue), then you should be able to have two serious partners (Red and someone else, probably a woman). Don't let Red push you around on this point, stand up for your rights. So what if Red has to give up a little time with you? assuming that he will, he has that fear but that doesn't mean it will happen. Besides, don't you have to give up a little time with Red, so that he can carry on his relationship with Blue?

Hang in there; I hope you can get some things worked out with Red.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
There is definitely a double standard there. I mean, it doesn't hurt to ask. Considering his lifestyle, I am not surprised he asked. But he should have dropped it when you said no. I get that he needs to process. Hopefully he has done that by the time you next talk about it. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

You don't have anything you need to defend. He's the one who needs to be doing the defending if he sticks to his guns.
 
Small update

We didn't resume the conversation because of timing difficulties, but he said that our own sexual relationship has been suffering lately so he doesn't know how we can have a conversation about me having sex with other people. In other words, he said my lack of effort in our sexual relationship is hindering the conversation.

Our sexual relationship may not be what it used to be a year or two ago, but it's still very active.

Regardless of how I respond to that, he will not see the glaring double standard. If he doesn't see it now, will he ever see it?
 
It's not just about sex, it's about emotional connection. If you're not spending LESS time with him now than before, then any change in your sex life has nothing to do with your availability to spend time with Red, and so seeing someone else wouldn't necessarily be an issue. Not to mention, for many people, having sex with other people actually INCREASES their sex drive and therefore makes their sex life with their existing partner better. So assuming that because you'd have sex with someone else it means less sex for him is also not a guarantee.

Either way, I agree that he needs to see the double standard and figure out his own issues.

I think at this point you are well within your right to just call him out on it and say that he doesn't get to try to limit you from having 2 romantic partners when he has 2 romantic partners himself. And that you've made your decision that this is something you intend to pursue. If you're open to discussing a timeline for it, you can do that with him, but you don't need his permission.
 
Is this a new model change?

Or was this already Open V where he can date on his side and you can date on yours... just that you had not gotten around to dating others until now?

:confused:

I could be wrong, but I do not think you are hearing him. Because you are so wanting him to hear YOU first.

Red expressed worry that if I start searching for something more relationshippy while he is gone, it might translate to me splitting my efforts when he gets back.

He then said that his main worry is that adding another partner will interfere or negatively impact my time with him, as it would cut into quality time and there may be times I have to choose whether to do something with him or her

"Time" seems to be a thing with him since he brought it up twice. Have you reassured him that you will do your best time management? You will honor commitments in order made?

he said that he is having a hard time processing because I haven't persisted and pushed for what I want so therefore he hasn't had adequate time to process and get used to it.

Ok, you are advocating NOW.

Name his time frame. How much time does he need to get to a place where he's ready and done processing the fact that you want to date others?

If he doesn't name a time, YOU name a reasonable time frame, you wait it out, and then you move onward. Because you cannot be "on hold" forever. And you have given him a chance to state his time.

He also stated that in an ideal world I would include him in experiences with girls.

Have you told him "Ok. I heard your preference."

(And then stop there. Because the reality is you do not want your side relationships to involve him. They themselves may not be up for group sex or involvement with him. So this is just him talking to the sky, really. No point in getting excited about it. Just let him air out. Having some preferences doesn't mean you always get them.)

he said that our own sexual relationship has been suffering lately so he doesn't know how we can have a conversation about me having sex with other people. In other words, he said my lack of effort in our sexual relationship is hindering the conversation.

This is flipperoo to me. He's not eager to examine/change his behaviors, so he flips it around to be about your behavior. Then the spotlight is not on his behavior any more.

What does (sharing sex) have to do with (sharing conversation)? Does he equate sex with connectedness? So all this talk is sending him into a panic or something? And he wants closeness/connectedness via sex before he can be willing to talk some more?

If so, you don't have to put out to have a conversation. I never like sex as some kind of "bargain tool" thing. That's inappropriate to me. But you could offer a hug or closeness/connection in a non-sex way. Perhaps postpone the conversation if he's emotionally flooded and flailing.

If he often does "flipperoo" when hard conversation happens? Note it, but don't address it right now. Stick to one topic at a time, and right now the topic is you are ready to date other people.

It is a double standard that he's struggling with where he wants all this freedom on his side, but he's not willing to do the work to provide same for you. He's hemming and hawing and kinda scrambling all over. Red is facing changes he's not eager to face. Don't take it personally if he flails. Step back away from it. That part is not your challenge.

One can know how to eat spaghetti. That doesn't automatically mean they know how to cook spaghetti.

Red knows how to share his partners in "casual sex" settings. He does not know how to share you or Blue in "romantic settings." He's going to have to learn the skills for you guys to continue in relationship.

You? You know how to share Red in both "casual sex" settings and "romantic settings" now. It took you time and struggle to get there. You could remember that struggle. It's like you want him to be ready because YOU are ready now. When he is not, and he's going to have his own struggles to get there.

You could remember that Red was not growing those same skills parallel to you growing yours. He's got his own row to hoe with that.
Does anyone have any advice on how I can better discuss this with him when we resume talks tonight or tomorrow? My perception of the double standard is making it difficult for me to tackle this because I automatically take a defensive stance and get frustrated that he can't see that it's a double standard.

My advice? Stick to ONE topic. The topic is "I am going to start dating other people. How can we make this change easy on both of us?"

Getting distracted with other side topics won't help.

Yes, he might emotionally flood. If he's prone to emotional flooding? You only have about 20-30 min max to discuss before he starts shutting down and cannot really hear any more any way. So don't pile up stuff. One topic at a time.

Yes, he might do "flipperoo" that you might find annoying and detracting from problem solving conversations. Not the time to solve that bad habit.

Yes, he might have preferences to be included. So? You don't want you other relationship to involve him, and they themselves may want nothing to do with him. Does not apply.

Yes, there may be a double standard. So what? He doesn't have to understand that to do new behaviors. It's like you want him to UNDERSTAND before he DOES. Me? I get right to the doing. It's not the same, but let me tell you a story.

My dementia parent? He has limited understanding. It doesn't matter. My mom will talk til the cows come home "explaining" things to him and it just makes her frustrated that he doesn't "get" it. He gets frustrated thinking "hard things" that he cannot handle. Me? I just TELL him what behavior I want.

Dad: I want you to take me to the store.

Me: Ok. Fold the laundry and eat lunch. When that is done, I will take you.​

I don't waste time on long conversation explaining how I cannot do the store right now because I have lunch cooking and cannot leave the house just like that with the stove on. I just give him a job to use up time so I can get the lunch ready, then we eat the lunch, then we can go. Dad likes hearing the "YES."

I would LIKE it if he understood the bigger picture. But do I need him understanding the bigger picture to get on with the things? No. I need him to get through lunch and then I can take him. So I focus on what I behavior I need. The quickest way to that behavior? I just tell him what behavior to do. If he does it? We go. If he does not? We don't.

Maybe that is the case here. You want him to understand, when he's not at a place of understanding. Maybe it is quicker to just TELL him what you want him to do and get on with the day.

What behavior do you want from him? To be aware? Ok, so just state it. "I want you to be aware that I plan to start dating on my side."

If this is already an Open V model you are simple exercising the options you already have. So you really don't need anything new behavior from him. You just tell him you are starting to date and you start dating. The new dating behavior is coming from you.

If the topic is "I am going to date. How can we make this easier on both?" and he doesn't want to talk about that? Accept it. Make it easier on just you then. Handle your side. Let his side be his concern and look out. It doesn't HAVE to be easier on both. If he wants to deal with hard stuff? Let him deal with it.

Just another perspective.

Galagirl
 
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Thank you so much for the insight!

Is this a new model change?

Or was this already Open V where he can date on his side and you can date on yours... just that you had not gotten around to dating others until now?

:confused:

I'm not really sure what it is. We have always identified as open -- never closed. Red has said repeatedly he isn't interested in having another partner because he has his hands full/is satisfied with the partners as is. That being said, there has been an emphasis on the relationship being "open," and I have brought this topic up several times over the last 2 years and he has said that it's on the table.

It has always been open in the sense that we have been sexually open, often him advocating and acting upon it more often than me or Blue. He has had dozens more experiences than I have throughout the duration of our relationship, many solo and many with Blue. I on the other hand have only had one solo experience, that was heavily negotiated for, and afterward his reaction wasn't particularly supportive. The short story is all three of us decided to pursue individual things on a specific night. Blue and I were able to make plans and have an experience, but Red's experience didn't go as he would have liked. When I came home, he was upset that his wasn't what he wanted and was distant toward me.

Since then, I haven't really advocated or pushed for experiences or anything along those lines, though it has been "technically on the table." Red being gone traveling seemed like a great way to introduce this back into the mix since there would be more space for him to process things after they happen.

Have you told him "Ok. I heard your preference."

(And then stop there. Because the reality is you do not want your side relationships to involve him. They themselves may not be up for group sex or involvement with him. So this is just him talking to the sky, really. No point in getting excited about it. Just let him air out. Having some preferences doesn't mean you always get them.)

I have often validated him and assured him that I'm listening and that I understand and hear his preferences. But it rarely ends there. It's often followed by bargaining along the lines of "Well those are experiences I wanted to have with you, so what can we do to make sure we are able to have something like that between us and someone we can share." Sometimes it shifts to "Well those are experiences I wanted to have with you and now I can't, so what are YOU going to do to make sure we are able to have something like that with someone we can share. What work will you put in?"

At this point I get exhausted because I have to continually validate and bargain, then validate and bargain.

When I first started getting used to the feelings that came up after he would have an experience without me, my conversations with him may have been construed as similar, but I think they're different (tell me if I'm wrong).

If he wanted to do something with someone, I would say "OK, go for it. Can we make sure that we carve out a specific night where you and I can have alone time next week?" It was mostly to help with my insecurity regarding the situation. Maybe it was wrong that I framed it that way?

If so, you don't have to put out to have a conversation. I never like sex as some kind of "bargain tool" thing. That's inappropriate to me. But you could offer a hug or closeness/connection in a non-sex way. Perhaps postpone the conversation if he's emotionally flooded and flailing.

I agree that it's inappropriate, but it has become common rhetoric in this conversation. I don't know how to end it. I'm frankly exhausted of being accused of not being sexual enough or not working hard enough on our sexual relationship and then expected to turn around and magically be the sexual creature he wants me to be. I sometimes feel criticized, and criticism isn't exactly an aphrodisiac for me. When I try to address this specific issue, he doubles down.

It is a double standard that he's struggling with where he wants all this freedom on his side, but he's not willing to do the work to provide same for you. He's hemming and hawing and kinda scrambling all over. Don't take it personally. Step back away from it, even as you deal with it. Red is facing changes he's not eager to face.

I 100% understand this is something he is struggling with. I can sense the insecurity and the fear that someone is going to come along and be a game changer, or that I might start something with someone and decide that's what I want instead of what we have. I'm struggling to get him to realize he's trying to control a situation, and that he's having issues processing because of insecurity. He won't admit it. He won't hear anything about it. He turns the tables on me and tells me I need to do more to work on our relationship. For 3 years I have put so much into this relationship, so to be told that I need to do even more than I'm already doing is something I'm having a hard time coping with.

My advice? Stick to ONE topic. The topic is "I am going to start dating other people. How can we make this change easy on both of us?"

Getting distracted with other side topics won't help.

Yes, he might emotionally flood. If he's prone to emotional flooding? You only have about 20-30 min max to discuss before he starts shutting down and cannot really hear any more any way. So don't pile up stuff. One topic at a time.

Yes, he might do "flipperoo" that you might find annoying and detracting from problem solving conversations. Not the time to solve that bad habit.

This is great advice! I'll definitely try this.
 
At this point I get exhausted because I have to continually validate and bargain, then validate and bargain.

If you are exhausted? STOP. Stop validating and bargaining. A healthy person does not require this much "propping up."

Are you able to see that? :confused: You are being sucked dry. That is not kind or loving behavior.

I'm frankly exhausted of being accused of not being sexual enough or not working hard enough on our sexual relationship and then expected to turn around and magically be the sexual creature he wants me to be. I sometimes feel criticized, and criticism isn't exactly an aphrodisiac for me. When I try to address this specific issue, he doubles down.

You may have to step even further back. Like the topic is NOT "I am ready to date other people."

But the actual topic might be "Do I still want to date Red? When nothing I do is ever enough for him and he makes everything be about him getting sex or me doing all the work in this relationship?"

The short story is all three of us decided to pursue individual things on a specific night. Blue and I were able to make plans and have an experience, but Red's experience didn't go as he would have liked. When I came home, he was upset that his wasn't what he wanted and was distant toward me.

So when he doesn't get what he wants, he sulks and gives people the silent treatment? Is that what you are saying? :confused:

Since then, I haven't really advocated or pushed for experiences or anything along those lines, though it has been "technically on the table."

Step back and ask... why do you have to "push?" If it is on the table that this is an Open relationship? Could just get on with your life and date. You don't have to stop living your life just because he's having a sulk and gives you the silent treatment.

But it rarely ends there. It's often followed by bargaining along the lines of "Well those are experiences I wanted to have with you, so what can we do to make sure we are able to have something like that between us and someone we can share." Sometimes it shifts to "Well those are experiences I wanted to have with you and now I can't, so what are YOU going to do to make sure we are able to have something like that with someone we can share. What work will you put in?"

You are not able to say "I will not be putting any work into making those experiences happen. I do not want them. This is an Open relationship. You can have these experiences on your own with other people. I do not need to be involved" to him?

Why or why not?

I'm struggling to get him to realize he's trying to control a situation, and that he's having issues processing because of insecurity. He won't admit it. He won't hear anything about it. He turns the tables on me and tells me I need to do more to work on our relationship.

Or maybe the struggle could be yours. Like maybe you struggle to see that he is a controlling person who sees you as an extension of himself and not as a person in your own right. So he gets mad you are not a "robot" that does what he says whenever he wants. In his eyes, the fault is all yours because you are not "playing right."

I wonder if that what you have on your hands here? :confused:

For 3 years I have put so much into this relationship, so to be told that I need to do even more than I'm already doing is something I'm having a hard time coping with.

If you find yourself trying to fill the bottomless Black Hole of Need, and are tired and exhausted? You could choose to stop filling. Take a time out and reassess.

Which circles back to around to....

You may have to step even further back. Like the topic is NOT "I am ready to date other people."

But the topic is "Do I still want to date Red? When nothing I do is ever enough for him and he makes everything be about him getting sex?"

Is it possible you have outgrown this relationship? :confused:

If so? Could change how you participate and let him do more of his own work instead of you "carrying" him so much that you are run down tired.

Or could stop participating. Could choose to end the relationship with Red because nothing you do is enough and you get too little return on your investment to want to keep ON investing.

You are the one who decides what you will and will not put up with.

FWIW? Between the lack of trust and the phone thing, the run down exhaustion, the having to "push" for basics when this is already Open, and then wanting you to be some kind of sex dispenser...

I guess I don't see what you get out of this that you want to keep on going. It does not sound especially healthy. :(

I strongly encourage you to reevaluate if this is still worth your while or just getting to be too much of a drag and you want out.

Seems like this guy doesn't like hearing "No." Sounds like he bullies to get his way. Either overtly by badgering/pestering/haranguing/demanding until you give in or covertly by sulking/silent treatment and making things uncomfortable that way.

If it were me? I would be done and out. And I would be looking for Red to try to "punish" me for leaving. Because everything "has" to be my fault and he's a punisher. So I would plan my leaving carefully. Not fun to think about... but it happens and one could think about it all the same.

Galagirl
 
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Could tell him that his refusal to deal with his insecurities and putting all the work, and the blame, on you is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. Sooner or later, you will get tired of this never-ending cycle and decide to dump him. Or you will meet someone eventually who doesn't treat you like it's your job alone to handle all the emotional labor in the relationship. And you will dump him at that point. Either way, it's coming - even if you are not fully conscious of it and it's not what you want.

My other thought is when he exhausts you with demands you do some type of emotional labor, take your ball and leave. (Google emotional labor for more info and tips.) Tell him over and over his insecurities and double standards (or whatever the issue might be) is his internal problem to deal with, not yours. And then do not debate. Do not discuss. Leave the room. Leave the house if need be. Repeat until his behavior firmly changes (not halfheartedly, not bargaining with you but when he is doing his own emotional labor.) Refuse to do the work for him. He will hate it. It will be painful and it will be hard at first.

There are two parts to setting boundaries. One is say 'no' when you can't or won't do something. The other half is asking for what you want. They might seem unrelated - they are not. We need both to truly create and live by healthy boundaries. Currently you have not clearly and repeatedly asked for what you want. And I get why. No likes being punished for wanting things. And that is what is going on, he is punishing you for wanting something he doesn't, or doesn't include him. If you say 'no' to doing his emotional labor for him, and disengage when he tries to shove it on you, he loses a stick to (emotionally) beat you with. He cannot punish you this way if you do not play the game.

I urge you to get counseling. These patterns of not saying no, not asking for what we want, and accepting this level of emotional punishment are often deeply set, sometimes from childhood. They can be hard to change just on one's own. (Not impossible! Just challenging!)
 
I agree with what others have said and it sounds like you need to exit the conversation when he starts to try and turn it around on you and not take responsibility for his own need to do emotional labor. Refuse to participate in those discussions and just bow out. He doesn't get to have his cake and eat it too while expecting you to just sit there and bake the cake, watch, and not have any of your own.
 
Thank you all for your advice and insight. I can't tell you how helpful it is.

Each thread I start sort of comes to the same general conclusion. Sifting through the guilt that somehow all of this is my fault is proving to be challenging. I'm internalizing a lot of this and finding all these places I can improve, and the last weeks have been so exhausting.

It feels like I'm fighting really hard to prove I can do this, and to stop fighting would be devastating. It feels easier to keep fighting even though we've reached a point where we can't understand each other at all.

Thank you again
 
Sifting through the guilt that somehow all of this is my fault is proving to be challenging.

What is all your fault? Is he telling you everything is your fault when things don't go his way? And you believe him? :confused:

It feels like I'm fighting really hard to prove I can do this...

Prove that you can do WHAT? Poly? You do it already. Sounds like you do it fine on your end.

Just sounds like you don't get mutuality/reciprocity/same standards in dating this partner. Which is a problem with the situation.

It is not a problem with YOU like somehow you are flawed or undeserving of fair, respectful treatment.

and to stop fighting would be devastating.

If you stop fighting what would be devastating about it? Rather than a relief to stop with the fighting so you don't have to be so run down?

I wonder if it would be devastating to stop fighting because that would mean accepting that Red is not a great partner? Where when you keep on fighting "for the relationship" you can keep believing that he is, if only you find just the right key to unlock that door. Is that it? :confused:

I could be wrong. But mostly it sounds like he wants (Open for him and not you... unless you being Open brings him some group sex.) You are his sex dispenser or his sex procurer. Just that he doesn't say it outright like that.

You want to talk about dating other people romantically. That gets him nothing. So he's not excited about it and discourages it or tries to use it as a means to get sex out of you first.

The dynamic you have with Red doesn't sound healthy.

You deserve to be treated well. He doesn't do it. :(

Galagirl
 
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Thank you all for your advice and insight. I can't tell you how helpful it is.

Each thread I start sort of comes to the same general conclusion. Sifting through the guilt that somehow all of this is my fault is proving to be challenging. I'm internalizing a lot of this and finding all these places I can improve, and the last weeks have been so exhausting.

It feels like I'm fighting really hard to prove I can do this, and to stop fighting would be devastating. It feels easier to keep fighting even though we've reached a point where we can't understand each other at all.

Thank you again

As far as I can tell, there are a few problems here, but they aren't what it looks like they are. Partly, the reason the real ones aren't so obvious is that Red is doing his best to obscure them; partly, it may be that the real ones are scarier than the ones you've been trying to solve.

Your chief real problem is that Red is an asshole.

This is a person who has held you to double standards for the entire length of your relationship (even the one time you've had casual sex that didn't involve him, he made a Big Thing of it). He gaslights you constantly. He pressures you for sex that you didn't consent to have. He demands sex as the price of your freedom to do things which you never granted him the right to deny you in the first place. He makes every conversation about your guilt, in order to extract concessions which he has no right to demand of you, as the price of releasing you from the burden of guilt that you never earned.

This is not a man who treats you well.

You have been allowing him to set the terms of discussion, and his terms are, "Unless you satisfy my demands, you may not do anything I choose not to permit you to do." But he has no right to dictate those terms, and you are free to walk away from them any time you please.

What if you responded by saying, "Red, I never said you could decide whether or not I date other people. I choose whether or not to date other people, and I've decided I am going to do that. I'm telling you about it because it's information that you ought to know; but that doesn't mean I am willing to argue about it or bargain with you about it. I'm just letting you know." Then end the conversation. If he tries to keep arguing, guilting you, or making demands, you say, "I already told you that I'm not having that discussion,
Red. Please talk to me when you can respect that decision; I'm going to go do X now."
Then go do X, without him, and leave him to handle his own feelings about it. You don't need to do the emotional labor of handling them for him, especially when the only way he is willing to allow you to do so is by conceding to do things his way (like having more sex with him) that you don't want to do.

In general, I believe in putting some effort into comforting and reassuring a partner who is frightened and upset about your decision to date someone else. But Red isn't looking for comfort and reassurance -- he's looking for bargaining chips he can cash in for other decisions of yours, or he's looking for a chance to pressure you into changing your mind. Neither of these is decent behavior on his part; and he loses the privilege of receiving comfort and reassurance if he tries to twist it into those demands instead.

It is quite possible that, if you begin actually standing up for yourself to Red, he will leave you. It's also very possible that he will behave so badly you'll have to leave him. Frankly, I don't think either would be much of a loss -- he's been, from what you have told us, controlling to the point of borderline abuse throughout your entire relationship. If it were me, I would leave him outright, right now.

But if you don't want to do that, you should still consider standing up to him with matter-of-fact resetting of the boundaries around what you're going to do, and what he can and cannot expect of you. He doesn't control those things. You do, and you do not have to persuade him that it's okay in order to make your own decisions. He probably never will decide it's okay... but that doesn't mean you can't date.

My advice: cease trying to talk Red into approving of your decision to date other people. Tell him you're going to date other people, and refuse flatly to 'pay' for the right to do so by meeting his sexual demands. If he breaks up with you over that, good riddance.
 
I'm so sorry to keep posting in this forum! There are a just a few specific things I need insight on that might be a little more private. GalaGirl, would it be OK if a messaged you? I promise not to take up much time!
 
There is nothing wrong with posting on the forum as many times as you want/need.

I don't know what I could help with but sure. You can PM.

Galagirl
 
Definitely no need to apologize, doglover. People want to help...and seeing how things work in other relationships can help readers spot potential issues in their own before they become so painful.

FWIW, I agree with the other posters that the problem here is Red. If I were you, I'd not only tell rather than ask, as others have suggested, but also insist on getting relationship counseling if you want to continue the relationship. His gaslighting and manipulation of you is not healthy.

The problem is not the double standard, per se -- any change in the status quo can make a partner jealous, even if the change is you getting the same thing the partner already has -- but that he's expecting you to "pay" for it somehow. That's not just asking for the things that are reasonable to ask: reassurance, time to adjust and/or agreements to continue making time for the existing relationship.
 
That's not just asking for the things that are reasonable to ask: reassurance, time to adjust and/or agreements to continue making time for the existing relationship.
Exactly!! He has every right to ASK for these things; that's communication. If he refuses to communicate, then he's withdrawing from polyamory, by definition. (As well, I'd argue that avoidance of self-awareness is also anti-poly.)
 
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