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  #11  
Old 02-03-2015, 07:56 AM
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Infinity Infinity is offline
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cool. Thanks for sharing. I am enjoying reading. I have 4 questions:

1. Why doesn't her boyfriend (your hubby) want kids with her, ever, but wants them with you?

2. Why are you not ok with them having kids (you said emotionally not ok)

3. How did she respond when she was first told he doesn't want kids with her ever, and is she still ok with this arrangement?

4. Did she think through the complication it would cause if she and her boyfriend has kids but she doesn't want to be open about the fact that she's his girlfriend?
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2015, 08:09 AM
Gateway91 Gateway91 is offline
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Hi Inifinity,

1. I have been trying to avoid character judgments because I know this topic is going to be emotional and probably biased because if how upset I have been, despite my efforts to the contrary (I am so sorry about that, too), but he feels and I agree that there are reasons in her personality and coping abilities that make having children with her unattractive. In addition, there are the purely pragmatic issues of legally recognizing and providing for those children and the highly negative fallout that would come from our parents and extended family. On the other hand, he and I have a long, strong, and steady relationship, we feel the same way about taking our time about having children, we have similar values, and we don't have any reservations about the other. No, we sure as hell are not perfect, but we communicate really well and we help each other work on our flaws. Usually, this is something we all do, but lately it has been very difficult to do this with our partner.

2. That is intensely personal, but the ideas of another woman bearing my husband's children and of a child with his eyes or hands...but nothing of me combined with him in them...is heartbreaking. I don't know how well I could ever cope with explaining to that innocent child that, yes, there is your father, and yes, I am his wife, but I am not your biological mother, nevermind the long-term effects of seeing that child everyday, interacting with them, and co-raising them. It is deeply upsetting to imagine.

3. She responded by negotiating for time in early January after telling us she wanted answers, in case we should change our minds. She then asked again, long before that negotiated period was anywhere near up. She negotiated for two years and asked again after a little less than two weeks. I'm not sure if she just wasn't sure if we really meant our answer or what she was thinking precisely. She has not been forthcoming and trying to her has not been productive.

4. My husband and I both felt like we had been hit by trains when she dropped this on us each time, and especially in the last month with its repetitions. Inevitably, we discussed this exact question and...we just don't think so. There's a lot of this behavior that really doesn't make a lot of sense to either one of us. This kind of behavior is something she does sometimes and is one of the various answers to question 1.

Last edited by Gateway91; 02-03-2015 at 08:11 AM.
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:54 PM
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PinkPig PinkPig is offline
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Just out of curiosity, are you certain she's not pregnant now? That could explain why she keeps bringing it up and pushing the issue?
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  #14  
Old 02-03-2015, 07:17 PM
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I think in any relationship if one partner wants children and another doesn't want children in their life then there has to be some serious thought given to how this relationship can continue.

I have two kids, I love them and I really love being a parent but it's a really really big job that lasts a lifetime. The default choice has to be to not have children unless you have a plan in place that all people involved are happy to commit to.
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  #15  
Old 02-03-2015, 07:25 PM
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FallenAngelina FallenAngelina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gateway91 View Post
2. That is intensely personal, but the ideas of another woman bearing my husband's children and of a child with his eyes or hands...but nothing of me combined with him in them...is heartbreaking. I don't know how well I could ever cope with explaining to that innocent child that, yes, there is your father, and yes, I am his wife, but I am not your biological mother, nevermind the long-term effects of seeing that child everyday, interacting with them, and co-raising them. It is deeply upsetting to imagine.
You don't need a lecture from me, but please make sure that she and your hub are using reliable birth control. And no method but abstention is 100%......
In this case, it doesn't sound likely that your GF would opt for the morning after pill or termination in the event of an "accidental" pregnancy.
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  #16  
Old 02-03-2015, 09:27 PM
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I smell an "oops" coming. But I'm biased since I've seen it happen more than a few times.
And given the current circumstances, with you paying some of her way and previously all the way, it's not hard for me to think that she probably thought about committing an "oops".
Add the whole mindset of wanting to be a better parent than her own. Babies aren't bandaids and they shouldn't be born with a job. That was a red flag for me.
Also bringing up babies and she hasn't finished her degree or has much in the way of a solid job history yet?
Y'all made it clear that she is free to pursue within another relationship yet she chose to stay and keep bringing it up. Honestly
I don't know, maybe she doesn't want to lose a support system. And I have to say a kid would for sure solidify it. You've already done so much already.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:18 AM
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Hi Gateway91,

Based on what's been said in this thread so far, I have to conclude that your girlfriend of 3.5 years is not a good match for you and that you should break up with her. You could give her a grace period of how long before she has to move out, to give her a chance to look for a job. But I wouldn't keep entwining my life with hers. I would cut the ties.

You can do however you see fit of course, but I have a feeling this thing about kids is going to become a real sore spot over the years, and is only going to get worse. Your wishes are not compatible with hers, that's the bottom line. For your sake and hers, break up with her.
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:19 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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If your husband is not interested in fathering a child by her, that is perfectly acceptable. Neither of you owe any explanations for that. He was upfront and told her, and she chose to stay and continue pushing the issue. It does not sound like you or your husband hit her with this out of the blue, and she had to learn to cope with it. At some point, people have to be accountable for their choices and decisions. She has the option to seek other partners and someone who wants to co-parent with her. If she elects not to, that is her prerogative. Setting times to renegotiate is futile because obviously your husband has not wavered. I agree with Confused. How can a relationship continue where there is disagreement on a major issue? Someone will have to settle/learn to be content/make other arrangements or walk away.

I have met people like that--the ones who had messed up childhoods and will go to extreme measures to have a baby like he/she will be bandage and fix everything. I get it. She wants to be a better mother than her own was to her. That is fine and dandy, but the other potential parents in this scenario are not ready to be parents, and even more important than that, your husband has decided against having children with her. All within his right. Even if we take the OP out of the equation and consider the husband/girlfriend dyad, there is an incompatibility on that level that is deeper than a superficial level. If they were a mono couple, it would not negate the fact that he a) is not ready for children and b) does not want to parent with her. In that situation, I would end the relationship and transition to a friendship. If I were the OP's husband, I would feel like my feelings and firm stance was being ignored and disrespected. Why is the partner continuing to ask as if it has not been thought out and carefully considered? IMO, this is not about equality. There is just an obvious incompatibility--even with the OP not being keen on her husband and his girlfriend parenting a child together.

OP, I commend you and your husband for knowing that you are not ready to parent a child. I needed to know myself and experience some things before I was ready to take on being a mother. That is a lifetime of commitment, and I knew I was not ready to take on something as daunting as motherhood.

I do not understand why your partner wants to have a child when she does not seem to have the means to take care of said child. If you and your husband are helping to fund her living and afraid to kick her out due to her inability to stand on her own two feet, how in the bloody hell would she take care of a baby? Babies are expensive. Hell, all children are expensive. And throw in the fact that you are virtually closeted. How does she expect that to work when she is dating a married couple? I do not know, but I have to believe some feelings might get hurt after being denied or introduced as a friend to people. Are they going to play they happy doting couple and ignore your existence when out with this child? It sounds like she has not thought this out. Working on a degree, no stable career, being partially supported by her partners...? None of this equates to being ready for parenthood. If she wants her children to have a better life than she did, she should rethink this baby fever and put it on hold until she gets herself together.

I hope it works out for all of you.
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:56 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Just to address this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
How can a relationship continue where there is disagreement on a major issue? Someone will have to settle/learn to be content/make other arrangements or walk away.
My husband and I disagreed on the concept of children ...and got married in spite of that supposed hurdle. I felt that I wanted babies "someday" and he felt that he didn't and never would. It wasn't a deal-breaker for me, I knew I wanted him (now) and thought that I wanted babies (later). (Apparently it wasn't a deal-breaker for him either - I think he knew that I would NEVER "trick" him or pressure him into babies he didn't agree to - which is one of the most despicable things that I think a woman can do to a man.) Besides, we were young (I was 22, he was 24), people change - when it came down to it, either of us could have a different frame of mind when baby-having was actually a plausible thing.

We talked about it here and there...had some heartfelt discussions on what "parenthood" meant, etc. His viewpoint changed to "maybe, with the right co-parent, you" - mine changed to "maybe not, if you aren't up for it".

Eventually "someday" arrived - I let him know that I was feeling the "wanting-a-baby" urge. If he was still "no babies ever" then I needed to know that - so I could adjust my expectations...

Long story, lots of ups and downs, excitement and heartbreak. 22 years of togetherness, two miscarriages (one his, and one Dude's - not an "accident", an agreed-upon possibility) and, ultimately, no babies. Know what? It's OK. "Major Issues" are still only as important as you make them.

*****************

This reply has nothing to do with the general gist of the thread - I was just addressing FoL's question. A lot of good commentary on the OP's situation has been given already. I don't really have anything to add - except to reenforce that the OPs husband really needs to be aware and make sure an "OOPS" baby doesn't just "happen"...

JaneQ

PS. For the record - Lotus and I are both, effectively, "fixed" - she has had a tubal ligation and I have an IUD. So 99% covered. The boys are expected to use condoms outside of our polycule (as are the woman - for STI protection) - if one of them developed a long-term sexual relationship with someone - then questions would be asked regarding more reliable birth control (my impression is that any of the boys would be willing to have a vasectomy should that be the best answer).
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Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 02-04-2015 at 04:15 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2015, 05:00 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I am sorry you struggle.

This sounds like "respect my no" problem. She does not listen to yours. She doesn't listen to her BF (your DH) saying "no" either. Not a healthy sounding person, TBH.

I mean all this kindly, ok?
  • I don't think you have a HEALTHY girlfriend.

Quote:
We have helped her through a number of traumatizing events in the last 5 years, including her break-up with her fiancee and that was not even the most emotionally trying item on the list. Getting through everything together made us feel very close to her .
That all sounds like trauma bonding to me. Not healthy foundations. That's where I would put the first red flag.

IS she a drama type? Because those types THRIVE in the drama zone, so they can be in the spotlight. Even if people around them do not enjoy drama. You sound so sensible and normal in your writing about your life other than this area... maybe not enough stimulus/drama for her. So she has to make some? is that why she's doing chaos manufacture now? For stimulus?

Quote:
when she admitted to an attraction to my husband and even a little to myself,
Did this happen once the fiancee left and she was looking for new people to "rescue" her? Did you get hoovered?

I could be wrong, but the highlights for the problem of today seem to be:
  • You and husband have each told her 3 times that baby in the house at this time is not wanted.
  • You and spouse are each focusing on career right now by the sound of it. A baby in the house requires more resources than you or he can give.
  • He has also told her in the past that he does not want babies with her. Ever. Just not willing.
  • You guys are supportive in that her child choices are hers to make for herself. She is free to make babies with another willing partner. But she doesn't want to date to seek such person. She wants HIM.
  • She negotiated to wait 2 years to see if you guys change your minds instead. Which would be fine, if she would LET it be fine.
  • Instead she brings it up all over again with drama when you thought it was "solved enough" for now so the household could return to peaceful routine.
  • She keeps grinding on having Hubby's baby and y'all cannot figure out why.

Other than guessing she's a drama type that thrives on making drama?

I wonder what's happening inside the 2 years.
  • Graduation? And having to seek a FT job? And wanting to avoid taking that responsibility?
  • Wanting to move from "student dependent" to "pregnant dependent" so she stays dependent?
  • Something else happening that being pregnant "solves?" Like his "drift apart plan thing" no longer counting? Because pregnant with his baby would make the plan void?
  • Something else?

I think no reasonable person would make a baby when they cannot even support themselves.

But I think UNREASONABLE messed up people COULD see "pregnancy" as a solution to "keep getting stuff done for me" or "give me a reason to avoid X." Could that be happening here?

Quote:
As it is, we had had a plan to slowly let ourselves drift apart from her, that she had agreed to...
She may have agreed verbally to it but her agreement keeping actions are flaky sounding to me.

She doesn't sound like she wants to build commitment in other ways with you guys -- maybe "pregnancy" just solves "keep access to his wallet" for her?

I see you write things like

Quote:
When she is in a right mind she can be wonderful...
which makes it sound like it is more and more rare that she IS in her right mind.

Quote:
Fear of loneliness without her is not enough reason to be with her if she keeps hurting me
which is true.

You need to be with HEALTHY people that respect your limits so you are free from hurt. Not with people who keep crossing the line to get what they want and hurt you in the trampling. Or only stop hurting you when they get their way. That is not giving you love. That's temporarily stoping abusing you until they want a NEW thing and start the bullying and grinding you down all over again.

Hurting is not loving behavior.

I see you have set a limit for yourself:
  • She behaves in one more big drama outbreak like this?
    • I do not want to continue this relationship. We break up.
    • Which would probably end my husband's relationship with her out of loyalty. (But that is his choice to make, not yours, so I grey it out to keep focus on you)
    • It would furthermore require her to find somewhere else to live. I don't want to live with an ex.

Sound fair. You don't have to feel guilty about your preferences, choices, boundaries, or natural consequences. It's ok to want a HEALTHY drama-free partner who will respect your "no" when you say "no."

Your trust is broken and you feel unsafe in trying to rebuild it with her. To me 3 years is not all that long. In those shoes? I would break up and let her stand on her own two feet.

I wouldn't even wait for another drama. 3 times telling her is already 3 strikes for me.

You live in FOG City right now though. Fear, confusion, guilt. I think you would benefit from reading this parts of this website:

http://outofthefog.net

When you say "No" and stick around with a person who will not respect your "No?" Basically you teach that your "No" doesn't need to be listened to because you will stick around anyway regardless of how they behave. They can keep on behaving however it is they want and NOT practice self control.

Your husband is responsible for every sperm that leaves his body. If he is FIRM on not wanting to have babies with her and she's on this crazy baby kick? To protect himself he could stop having sex with her so be 100% sure that won't happen. Make it a non-issue by making himself undingable.

I wouldn't trust her word on her taking BCP. She could lie to get the pregnancy she wants. And condoms sometimes break. He can't FORCE her to take Plan B or abort.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 02-09-2015 at 08:04 PM.
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boundaries, boundary negotiation, child raising, child-free, help sought, kids, ptsd, red flags, triad fallout, triad relationship, trust

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