Feeling stuck guys

Bear and I have always had communication issues. ..... we have just been trying to work around our incompatibilities for most of our time together. .... I also know that I have been keeping myself closed off for many years because it has never been comfortable for him.

Doesn't sound like this is about scheduling or about trying to find time to reconnect. Sounds like you were never emotionally connected in a way that felt deeply fulfilling for you, willowstar. When people say "communication is key," they don't mean just getting your ideas across to someone, they mean sharing emotional intimacy. It sounds to me as though you are looking back on your relationship and seeing how all along there was intimacy missing for you. You're perhaps wondering if that intimate connection can still be forged. It would be new territory for you and Bear, it wouldn't be simply a long term couple recapturing what you once had. I can understand why he takes it personally that you want others because what you want is an emotional fulfillment that he hasn't been able to give you. This doesn't seem to be just a matter of communication styles or scheduling.

My husband and I used to periodically devolve into tit for tat (time away) game and it was always when we were not emotionally connecting otherwise. When we felt close, seen and good about each other, generosity of individual time just came naturally. You might consider looking at what underlies Bear's little digs about his not getting equal time away.
 
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I think therapy is the best place for you to sort out if you guys are still compatible and if you still have the heart to try again to make repairs or if you are best making peace with it and letting go.

I don't want to just walk away unless I know that we have truly tried to make it work, and improve our communication.

Fair enough. Talk it over in therapy.

I would prefer that our negotiations not be couched in this tit for tat game.

On the communication puzzle piece? He has his own work to be doing to improve his side of communicaiton. But you could examine your end of conversations to see where you could improve and not get sucked into tit for tat stuff.

I could be wrong... but this is what I get from your two examples.

CONVO 1

  • You: Hey I'm meeting the girls for a planning dinner on Wednesday.
  • Bear: "OK. Well when do I get my time away?"

How about a different conversation opener? Because to me, something like

"Hey I'm meeting the girls for a planning dinner on Wednesday."​

is an announcement. My partner just decided something that affects me without checking in and expects me to just go along with it.

If it were lunch, I would not care. We both work, what we do at our lunches affects nothing for the other person. I go to work, have lunch with a a friend and go back to work. He could do same. Or we could meet up and lunch together.

Dinners on the other hand, affect me, childcare for the evening, and other chores/jobs that happen in that evening window. If I expected it to be a shared job that evening and he up and decides to go out and saddles me with ALL of it without even asking if I am up for that first?

I would feel taken for granted, and kinda resentful! So yeah. I might grudgingly go “Ok. But when do *I* get a night off then?”

This whole thing could be solved in two ways to me.

1) Regular nights off. I get Mon and Wed. DH gets Tues and Thurs.

We arrange our lives to match that. So if my friends ask me to dinner on a Tues? I am going to say “I cannot do Tues. Mon or Wed works better for me." Nobody has to ask when their night off is because we already know. And we simply don't make plans that crash into that.

2) Stop making “announcements” like it is a “done deal” if you actually mean for it to be a request and you want to come to it like negotiating a schedule.

You want words like this from him:

He could very easily reframe his request in a way that doesnt make it conditional. "Hey, that sounds good. I was also thinking I would go to this gathering at the farm this weekend. Does that work with other plans?"

You could frame your own requests when you approach him more like that:

“I would like to go out to dinner with my friends on Wed. Does that work for you? Is another night better?”​

Then you are opening a conversation where you are working something out together. That's what you want, right?

You could stop coming at it like "announcements" because it comes off sounding like you have made a unilateral decision for the couple, saddled him with all the evening chores, and he's expected to just suck it up.

Not a nice way to treat him. :(

CONVO 2

He is more likely to come to me and ask "What is the plan for the weekend?" Assuming I already have one. I prefer that we talk about what needs to happen this weekend, and then make a plan together.

You seem to take this with a chip on shoulder and take him LITERALLY like you think he thinks you are the one who is supposed to make all the plans.

Where I would take it like a generic conversation opener like "Wassup?" or "What's the plan, Stan?"

If your goal is the part in green, you could focus on what you want more of. Get on with talking about what has to happen this weekend and get on with making the plan together. That's what you want more of right?



Bear: What's the plan for the weekend?

You: Well, these things need to happen: Appointment at the vet for the dog at 10 AM Saturday morning. That one cannot be moved around. Groceries has to happen, but that can be any time. Be nice to catch dinner or a movie or something so you and I have time togeher.

I suggest Sat is the dog and groceries, and that would leave Sunday open for us having time together. Does that work for you? Do you want a different order? Anything else you needed to get done this weekend that needs slotting in?"​


When this happens, I feel like I am responsible for all decision making, and that is not the job I want. I want a partnership, not be the boss. Yes, I have said that to him, and he says we can do that, but then he does not do that.

Or maybe he IS trying to do that by checking in and trying to open the conversation. "What's the plan, Stan?" and you get humphy and he gives up trying. Could that be happening there?

You seem to focus a LOT on the stuff you do NOT want. Or like you want his words to be "perfect" and get nitpicky on it rather than "good enough for now" and then just move on to the kinds of conversations you like having better.

Try not taking things so personally, and work on your conversation starters. Make yours be actual requests instead of "announcements"

Take his conversation starters less literally and more "generic opener" and get to the negotiation/make plans together thing that you want. See if that helps smooth some things out.

If you want to improve communication from your end, I would start there if I were in your shoes.

Galagirl
 
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Doesn't sound like this is about scheduling or about trying to find time to reconnect. Sounds like you were never emotionally connected in a way that felt deeply fulfilling for you, willowstar. When people say "communication is key," they don't mean just getting your ideas across to someone, they mean sharing emotional intimacy. It sounds to me as though you are looking back on your relationship and seeing how all along there was intimacy missing for you. You're perhaps wondering if that intimate connection can still be forged. It would be new territory for you and Bear, it wouldn't be simply a long term couple recapturing what you once had. I can understand why he takes it personally that you want others because what you want is an emotional fulfillment that he hasn't been able to give you. This doesn't seem to be just a matter of communication styles or scheduling.

My husband and I used to periodically devolve into tit for tat (time away) game and it was always when we were not emotionally connecting otherwise. When we felt close, seen and good about each other, generosity of individual time just came naturally. You might consider looking at what underlies Bear's little digs about his not getting equal time away.

Yes, this makes sense. I have definitely been doing this, trying to decipher what my true feelings are. I always chalked up our moments of "disconnect" to be "all relationships are not perfect, and committment means sticking it out and making the effort." Having young kids at home makes me more motivated to try and do that, for us as well as them.

We do have times when we feel connected and good, and things are MUCH easier between us when this is happening. But those times are not happening very often. So yes, I am seeking the emotional intimacy that I wish we had, for sure.
 
I could be wrong... but this is what I get from your two examples.

CONVO 1

  • You: Hey I'm meeting the girls for a planning dinner on Wednesday.
  • Bear: "OK. Well when do I get my time away?"

How about a different conversation opener? Because to me, something like

"Hey I'm meeting the girls for a planning dinner on Wednesday."​

is an announcement. My partner just decided something that affects me without checking in and expects me to just go along with it.

If it were lunch, I would not care. We both work, what we do at our lunches affects nothing for the other person. I go to work, have lunch with a a friend and go back to work. He could do same. Or we could meet up and lunch together.

Dinners on the other hand, affect me, childcare for the evening, and other chores/jobs that happen in that evening window. If I expected it to be a shared job that evening and he up and decides to go out and saddles me with ALL of it without even asking if I am up for that first?

I would feel taken for granted, and kinda resentful! So yeah. I might grudgingly go “Ok. But when do *I* get a night off then?”

OK, yes I see how that can be taken as an announcement and not as a piece of information. In that example, this is a plan for my womens circle and I guess I think of that as an ongoing activity that he already knows about, and so my informing him of when the next get together is scheduled for is just filling him in. But I see how it can be taken otherwise. I can certainly work on that.


This whole thing could be solved in two ways to me.

1) Regular nights off. I get Mon and Wed. DH gets Tues and Thurs.

We arrange our lives to match that. So if my friends ask me to dinner on a Tues? I am going to say “I cannot do Tues. Mon or Wed works better for me." Nobody has to ask when their night off is because we already know. And we simply don't make plans that crash into that.

We did try something like this when I was with the ex-bf, mainly so that Bear and I had time set aside that was available just for us, and I also had time that I could spend talking with my other partner. We did this because Bear was feeling as though he wasnt getting his time with me, so we made the effort to set that aside specifically.

I do remember though that he wasnt a huge fan of this system, although Im not really sure why. I thought it was a good solution to insure that each person was getting designated time for themselves or with a partner, and he knew in advance when I was spending time with BF. But perhaps in a context of just us having time set aside for ourselves, and not in the context of a poly relationship, maybe it would work better. I will definitely suggest that to see what he thinks.


CONVO 2



You seem to take this with a chip on shoulder and take him LITERALLY like you think he thinks you are the one who is supposed to make all the plans.

Where I would take it like a generic conversation opener like "Wassup?" or "What's the plan, Stan?"

If your goal is the part in green, you could focus on what you want more of. Get on with talking about what has to happen this weekend and get on with making the plan together. That's what you want more of right?


Yes, I want to be able to discuss the needs of our family, and talk about upcoming events as partners. And when he asks me in the way that he does, I tend to feel that he is not talking out the details with me. He just wants the big chunks. Does that make sense? I need the intellectual connection of talking out the details, so that I dont feel like the burden of decision making is all on me. When he just takes the big chunks, it feels like he is leaving me to handle it alone.



You seem to focus a LOT on the stuff you do NOT want. Or like you want his words to be "perfect" and get nitpicky on it rather than "good enough for now" and then just move on to the kinds of conversations you like having better.

Try not taking things so personally, and work on your conversation starters. Make yours be actual requests instead of "announcements"

Take his conversation starters less literally and more "generic opener" and get to the negotiation/make plans together thing that you want. See if that helps smooth some things out.

If you want to improve communication from your end, I would start there if I were in your shoes.

Galagirl

I think that over time I have become more sensitive to the language people use, and I make an effort to use the correct language so that I am communicating more clearly. (I know I dont always succeed at that...) But perhaps it is coming across as picky or insensitive. So, yes, I am probably becoming frustrated over him not asking "the right question". And could be over analyzing his responses too. What I do know is that when we try to talk, I feel icky, and so does he. We just feel like ships in the night, missing each other completely.

I do hear what you are saying Galagirl. Yes, I can probably take a breath and communicate with more love.
 
Hey willow saw your name and had to see what was up with you ....I remember being apart of one of your other threads. Sorry things aren't going well.


A couple things topics themes caught my eye. When is enough enough when does one pull the plug. He knew when he met you and knew what he was signing up for. He didn't get the poly bomb dropped on him.


Do you think he's one of those people who really didn't understand what that really meant ...OR ...he's spent the last 21 yrs trying to convince you that you really don't need to venture elsewhere.....or throughly in denial ....I'll hope it doesn't happen hope doesn't happen and if does I'll deal later?

To me the dating on his ends sounds like he's playing the clock ...excuse de jour.
Knowing it's hard for men to find women etc etc its a stall or a roadblock.


Overview : so for 10-15 yrs he was waiting for the shoe to drop and then boom it does you connect with an old BF at a class reunion or something. Deal breaker relationship not the typical marriage first type thing. By your own admission NRE gets the better of you and he gets thrown into poly hell.
Somewhere in there sex with him becomes competitive and you cut him off. You were the only person on the forum ( to my knowledge ) to say the spillover effect felt wrong. The passion created by you and your BF belonged to you and your BF. He was poaching so to speak.
I pop in here very sporadically so I don't know how that ended but sounds like it ended

You mention the pros and cons list did we do that when you wanted to start searching for the Grail again. What are the pros for him??? He might stay married for another week or yr ?? Let see ...you become happy and feel respected and understood and lift the sex embargo ...wait it might infringe on someone else's passion oops. cut off again.

The mantra is these are his emotions and fears to deal with....my response ...but there far from ungrounded in fact I'd argue they are extremely grounded. Fear of losing his marriage...deal breaker on last BF and how many time has divorce been discussed. Demotion, Displacement, and intrusion...oh wait that happened already...(head down and brace brace brace)


So right now your in a sexless marriage / roommate arrangement were you'd consider having him as a secondary ( which by the way I suggested to my wife and wrote a thread about ) what in your mind does that look like? I got a feeling it's not the same as what's in my head or what I suggested.

You said you like 60% of the relationship ....is this another case of settling and cobbling. Round up people to fill in the holes ....or keep looking for the " right " person that checks all or most of the boxes. Or dating and hobby sex.

Would it be a relief if you lifted the embargo and he said he no longer was attracted to you and had no desire to have sex with you ever again. ....it just feels icky. At that point you're off the hook. Is this a good day or bad day?


I think you should set yourself free and as a consequence he will be freed too but not the way you think. Lots of this is stuck to him forever.
 
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A couple things topics themes caught my eye. When is enough enough when does one pull the plug. He knew when he met you and knew what he was signing up for. He didn't get the poly bomb dropped on him.

Yes, I agree. He knew this all along, and did not choose to do anything to actively deal with his feelings until it was imminent. Even then, he has not done much, he had a couple of counseling sessions on his own and thats it. other than that, he has just been "weathering" it.


Do you think he's one of those people who really didn't understand what that really meant ...OR ...he's spent the last 21 yrs trying to convince you that you really don't need to venture elsewhere.....or throughly in denial ....I'll hope it doesn't happen hope doesn't happen and if does I'll deal later?

NO, I think he understood on an intellectual level, but he did not know what it would take for him to allow this in real life. For a long time, he was more ok with me being with women but definitely not with men. BF was the first time I really said "I need this too".
I think he is an "in the moment" person. He will deal with something when it comes up, not necessarily in advance.


Overview : so for 10-15 yrs he was waiting for the shoe to drop and then boom it does you connect with an old BF at a class reunion or something. Deal breaker relationship not marriage first. By your own admission NRE gets the better of you and he gets thrown into poly hell.
Somewhere in there sex with him becomes competitive and you cut him off. You were the only person on the forum ( to my knowledge ) to say the spillover effect felt wrong. The passion created by you and your BF belonged to you and your BF. He was poaching so to speak.
I pop in here very sporadically so I don't know how that ended but sounds like it ended

Yes, it was a sudden thing, totally unexpected. It was definitely a gamechanger relationship. It made me realize that I wanted to be poly and that we needed to find a way to make that happen or split. And we were desperately trying to make it happen.

Yes, the relationship with BF ended 2 1/2 years ago, the BF just pulled away suddenly. He claims depression, which he still says he is dealing with. I believe him, I have seen him and talked with him from time to time.

You mention the pros and cons list did we do that when you wanted to start searching for the Grail again.

We are going through that process now. I found an online resource that walks people through the process of assessing their relationship, pros/cons, etc. And we have a therapy appt Wednesday. So far I think it is helpful, and I had actually started to do something similar on my own before I found it. It designed to help people decide whether they can save their marriage or not.


So right now your in a sexless marriage / roommate arrangement were you'd consider having him as a secondary ( which by the way I suggested to my wife and wrote a thread about ) what in your mind does that look like? I got a feeling it's not the same as what's in my head or what I suggested.

Im not sure what it looks like. I know I enjoy having him in my life, and I dont really want him to be GONE. That would make me sad. But I have wondered whether it would be a better fit for us to not be primaries.

I have considered that we could live together but separate rooms, and also living apart but having scheduled date nights just like other non married people do. Sunday dinner all together with the kids, to maintain family connections. I dont know what he could handle though. He may need the ending to be more clearcut.

Would it be a relief if you lifted the embargo and he said he no longer was attracted to you and had no desire to have sex with you again. ....it just feel icky. At that point you're off the hook. Is this a good day or bad day?

Yes, I have felt for a very long time that I wished he would find a partner so that I didnt feel the pressure of being his one and only source of affection and sexual energy.


I think you should set yourself free and as a consequence he will be freed too but not the way you think. Lots of this is stuck to him forever.

I am leaning in that direction. I am hoping we can find a way to do that without losing the positive things that we do share together. But perhaps I am just holding onto something that should have been released a long time ago.

I tend to think that this is what a lot of people do, especially in mono marriages. They accept that things are just "okay" and that this is life now. And I could certainly choose to do that. Just accept that this is our life, that we have kids and life is more limited because we have those responsibilities. But I also know that I would feel stifled. Because I always have.

Thanks for your thoughts dingedheart. I will check out your thread. :)
 
First off I wasn't plugging that old thread .....it's not really relevant to your situation and or set up. The irony was that we both suggested the same thing.



To be positive for one second ..." Weathering " might be considered a plan / action ....just not a very good one.

I very much question the concept of dealing with painful emotions and or loss as " growth " Playing mind games with yourself to distract or lessen your emotions is considered growth ?



Wow it's been 2 1/2 yrs already ....wow time flys. :D. " Make this work or split " That's been the active plan during and after BF right up to now ?
Is the frustration that he says he doesn't want to split but yet doesn't " really" do much to demonstrate making it work? Have you done trial separations.

Was your online pro con resource hard to find ??? If so you might want to post a link other might find it useful. I think a therpist told me once that 80% of there work is getting people to realize they should split.

All that being said the nature of my last question was knowing how things played out with your BF ...the NRE ...poly hell....I'm sure the break up wasn't pleasant ( meaning your mood / sadness effected the whole family) him having to be the emotional tampon, etc etc. the pros list for him are what ....he gives you what you want so you're happy....not stifled. The con side looks a bit longer for him.


So secondary would mean family date nights ??? See I know we had different ideas on this :D. I think we had the discussion back on your other thread about being in romantic love ....and loving someone. That's something you'll each have to do an inventory on. To me those types of questions and the hard truth answers are where growth occurs and why we continue to do the things we do.


I don't know don't the positive things you share so it's hard to comment on how everything will play out ....but I'm fairly confident that it won't happen as drawn up in your head or on paper. Do what you got to do and hope it works out half as good as the ideal.

I think the big regret is the time, energy, and money wasted to final get there.
 
First off, I wasn't plugging that old thread. It's not really relevant to your situation and/or set up. The irony was that we both suggested the same thing.

To be positive for one second: "weathering" might be considered a plan/action, just not a very good one.

I very much question the concept of dealing with painful emotions and/or loss as "growth." Playing mind games with yourself to distract or lessen your emotions is considered growth?

Wow, it's been 2 1/2 yrs already? Wow, time flies. :D "Make this work or split, " that's been the active plan during and after BF, right up until now?

Is the frustration that he says he doesn't want to split, but yet doesn't "really" do much to demonstrate making it work? Have you done trial separations?

Was your online pro/con resource hard to find? If so, you might want to post a link; others might find it useful. I think a therapist told me once that 80% of their work is getting people to realize they should split.

All that being said, the nature of my last question was knowing how things played out with your BF: the NRE, the poly hell. I'm sure the break up wasn't pleasant: your mood/sadness affecting the whole family, him having to be the emotional tampon, etc., etc.

The pro list for your husband is what? He gives you what you want so you're happy, not stifled? The con side looks a bit longer for him.

So "secondary" would mean family date nights? See, I knew we had different ideas on this! :D I think we had the discussion back on your other thread about being in romantic love, and loving someone. That's something you'll each have to do an inventory on. To me these types of questions, and the hard truth answers, are where growth occurs, and why we continue to do the things we do.

I don't know the positive things you share, so it's hard to comment on how everything will play out, but I'm fairly confident that it won't happen as drawn up in your head or on paper. Do what you gotta do, and hope it works out half as well as the ideal.

I think the big regret is the time, energy, and money wasted to finally get there.

Cost sunk fallacy, yes. I am guilty of that, and regret staying with my ex h for 30 years instead of "only" 20. But it took a while to let go. I feared the unknown, and the financial hardship. It was SO worth it though!
 
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Hey willow, I saw your name and had to see what was up with you. I remember being a part of one of your other threads. Sorry things aren't going well.

A couple things/topics/themes caught my eye. When is enough, enough? When does one pull the plug?

He knew, when he met you, what he was signing up for. He didn't get the poly bomb dropped on him. Do you think he's one of those people who didn't understand what that really meant, or that he's spent the last 21 yrs trying to convince you that you really don't need to venture elsewhere, or that he is thoroughly in denial? "Hope it doesn't happen, hope doesn't happen, and if does, I'll deal with it later" kind of thing?

To me, the dating on his end sounds like he's playing the clock: le excuse du jour. Knowing it's hard for men to find women, etc., etc., it's a stall or a roadblock.

Overview: so for 10-15 yrs he was waiting for the shoe to drop, and then boom! it does. You connected with an old BF at a class reunion or something. Deal breaker relationship, not the typical "marriage first" type thing. By your own admission, NRE gets the better of you, and your husband gets thrown into poly hell.

Somewhere in there, sex with him becomes competitive, and you cut him off. You were the only person on the forum (to my knowledge) to say the spillover effect felt wrong; the passion created by you and your BF belonged to you and your BF. You felt your husband was poaching, so to speak.

I pop in here very sporadically so I don't know how that ended, but it sounds like it ended.

You mentioned the pros and cons list. Did we do that when you wanted to start searching for "the Grail" again? What are the pros for him? He might stay married for another week or year? Let's see... you become happy and feel respected and understood, and lift the sex embargo? Wait, it might infringe on someone else's passion! Oops! Cut off again.

The mantra is: these are his emotions and fears to deal with. My response: they're far from un-grounded. In fact, I'd argue they are extremely grounded. Fear of losing his marriage was a deal breaker with last BF. And how many time has divorce been discussed?

Demotion, displacement, and intrusion... Oh wait, that happened already... (head down and brace-brace-brace!).

So right now you're in a sexless marriage/roommate arrangement where you'd consider having him as a secondary. (Which, by the way, I suggested to my wife and wrote a thread about.) What, in your mind, does that look like? I've got a feeling it's not the same as what's in my head, or what I suggested.

You said you like 60% of the relationship. Is this another case of settling and cobbling: round up people to fill in the holes, OR keep looking for the "right" person that checks all or most of the boxes, OR start dating and having "hobby sex"?

Would it be a relief if you lifted the embargo, and then he said he no longer was attracted to you, and he had no desire to have sex with you ever again, because it just feels icky? At that point you're off the hook. Is this a good day or bad day?

I think you should set yourself free! As a consequence he will be freed too, but maybe not in the way you think. Lots of this is stuck to him forever.:(

Good questions!
 
Wow it's been 2 1/2 yrs already ....wow time flys. :D. " Make this work or split " That's been the active plan during and after BF right up to now ?
Is the frustration that he says he doesn't want to split but yet doesn't " really" do much to demonstrate making it work? Have you done trial separations.

I wouldn't call it an active plan. But whenever we have the deep conversations this is usually where I end up. Accept me for being poly and realize that means that I actively date people and have relationships. And figure out what he needs in order to live with that. OR realize that this is a limitation for him and decide to leave. He sees that as an ultimatum. I see it as reality. When I have gone out on dates or to spend time with a lover he cannot help but show me how difficult it is for him. He sighs, he fiddles with his necklace. He needs lots of reassurance when I return to show him that he is still important to me. He is insecure. He does all the things that people who have genuine anxiety will do to alleviate that anxiety. (He admits to the anxiety, but again doesn't want to do anything about it.) He is resentful and sad.

And yes, he says he loves me and wants this to work, but no he does not seem to be doing the work to make things different. I really don't know what he thinks is supposed to happen. At this point I think his tactic is to try and find a relationship for himself, to "see what it is like". My question to him is, well what do we do in the meantime? Do I need to wait around for that to happen? Or do I go ahead and live a poly life knowing how much it hurts him when I do? That seems cruel, and I don't want to be that to him.

No trial separations yet. Kids and finances get in the way of that, and I don't want to create that kind of situation for my kids unless I have to.


Was your online pro con resource hard to find ??? If so you might want to post a link other might find it useful. I think a therpist told me once that 80% of there work is getting people to realize they should split.

Here is where I found it.
http://www.drmichaelbroder.com/can-your-relationship-be-saved-download/


All that being said the nature of my last question was knowing how things played out with your BF ...the NRE ...poly hell....I'm sure the break up wasn't pleasant ( meaning your mood / sadness effected the whole family) him having to be the emotional tampon, etc etc. the pros list for him are what ....he gives you what you want so you're happy....not stifled. The con side looks a bit longer for him.

Yes, it wasn't pretty. I needed to go back on my antidepressant. I mourned a long time. I still am, really. He was definitely there for me, and I was most grateful for him. I don't know if I would have gotten through it without him. It was that bad for me.

He is compiling his lists of pros and cons as I write this. I will be doing the same. So, I can probably report more on this at a later time.


So secondary would mean family date nights ??? See I know we had different ideas on this :D. I think we had the discussion back on your other thread about being in romantic love ....and loving someone. That's something you'll each have to do an inventory on. To me those types of questions and the hard truth answers are where growth occurs and why we continue to do the things we do.

Truthfully, I dont know what "secondary" would look like for us. I dont know if we could back ourselves up to that level after a marriage. I could imagine what I might want it to look like, but realistically? Everything we could do in terms of scheduling time together and having date nights, we can do while being married and living together. Seems weird to consider separation just so we can date again.

I think I am really struggling with leaving a marriage for something that *feels* very selfish.... wanting more partners, more love, more sexual connection... This decision will inflict pain and force people around me to make adjustment that none of them asked for. I really really hate that.

Also, I know that divorce or even separation means likely coming out as poly and perhaps as bi to my family or origin, which I am not too keen on doing. Either that, or just divorce on the premise of "I just dont want to anymore." :(
 
Irreconcilable differences. "We no longer see eye to eye." "We grew apart."

I divorced my husband and those are the terms. No one needs to know your reasons unless you choose to tell them! And it's not just poly, you know. It's a basic difference in outlook and communication style.

I also sacrificed 10 years of my life when my marriage was going down the toilet, "for the kids." I will never know if it was really the right decision to hang on as a married couple when we were making each other miserable.

You're not selfish! We only get one ride on this planet. Why not live authentically? Whether you're gay, bi, straight, poly, religious, atheist, it's silly to fake being "normal" for others while being sick with misery in your soul.

Marriages don't need to last forever. I married too young, I was only 22 and my ex was 24. We weren't grownups! It's no surprise we grew apart... we had irreconcilable differences from the start. We also had a lot in common, true. Like you, it was 60% good to okay, 40% crap. I wasn't satisfied with that ratio.

I am so much happier since I made the change. I am still co-parents with my ex, and we parted amicably, and are on friendly terms. He's a nice guy! He got himself a gf when we tried poly together in 1999-2000 and they kept in touch... when we split, and he got his own place, she soon joined him and they've been together ever since. She's mono, he's mono. It's better for him!
 
I think I am really struggling with leaving a marriage for something that *feels* very selfish.... wanting more partners, more love, more sexual connection... This decision will inflict pain and force people around me to make adjustment that none of them asked for. I really really hate that.

This is exactly why I chose to end my 17 year marriage. My husband and I had a great emotional connection, but the sexual aspect was severely lacking for me, not for him. We divorced over sex and the reality that he just couldn't abide a poly wife. I worried about his pain and I worried about being judged but my intuition was strong that this was what our family needed. I kept an open heart and an open mind and did not sink into guilt, which kinda kept us buoyant and out of the "guilt begets anger begets more guilt" cycle. A week after my husband moved out, he met his current GF who seems lovely and they are building their mono life together. They were here for Thanksgiving (with our two sons) and it was far from the "inflicting pain and forcing people" that I also worried about at first. It was an expanded family, a bigger table, more love. You don't need the cooperation of anyone at the outset when you make a move like this, you just need the courage of your convictions and the vision that what you foresee for yourself will benefit all concerned in the long run. This can be the best move your family ever made if you set the tone for how things go down.
 
I wouldn't call it an active plan. But whenever we have the deep conversations this is usually where I end up. Accept me for being poly and realize that means that I actively date people and have relationships. And figure out what he needs in order to live with that. OR realize that this is a limitation for him and decide to leave. He sees that as an ultimatum. I see it as reality.

I agree not an active plan or plan of " action ".

It is an ultimatum ....and it happens to be a reality as well. Deal or hit the road.
Deal less demonstratively or fuck off. That seems harsh., deal in silence or leave. Better yet deal with a smile or leave......ding ding ding we have a winner.

At this point I think his tactic is to try and find a relationship for himself, to "see what it is like". My question to him is, well what do we do in the meantime? Do I need to wait around for that to happen?

I think the bigger question is what are the odds that that will be the big fix.
To me that grand experiment has disaster written all over it for several reasons.
And really it is just an experiment. All based on if's.
That said it could work. And all the theroies and plans get real once everyone feels them. That might happen on your side of the coin as well.

Yes, it wasn't pretty. I needed to go back on my antidepressant. I mourned a long time. I still am, really. He was definitely there for me, and I was most grateful for him. I don't know if I would have gotten through it without him. It was that bad for me.

He is compiling his lists of pros and cons as I write this. I will be doing the same. So, I can probably report more on this at a later time.

I was strictly thinking about the pros and cons of you practicing poly but I think you're talking about now the marriage as a whole correct? Is that a useful exercise to generate 2 pro and con lists or are the lists are reflection or mirror/ opposite image of each other?



Truthfully, I dont know what "secondary" would look like for us. I dont know if we could back ourselves up to that level after a marriage. I could imagine what I might want it to look like, but realistically? Everything we could do in terms of scheduling time together and having date nights, we can do while being married and living together. Seems weird to consider separation just so we can date again.
.

When I suggested being my wife secondary I wasn't thinking of legal separation or divorce ....it was in the midst of poly hell and more hey take me off the front line ...out the trench ....I'll be once a week fun R&R guy.


I think I am really struggling with leaving a marriage for something that *feels* very selfish.... wanting more partners, more love, more sexual connection... This decision will inflict pain and force people around me to make adjustment that none of them asked for. I really really hate that.

Also, I know that divorce or even separation means likely coming out as poly and perhaps as bi to my family or origin, which I am not too keen on doing. Either that, or just divorce on the premise of "I just dont want to anymore." :(

You said you have these deep conversations.....you seem very honest with us here and im assuming you've been equally/ brutally honest with him as well on all this stuff. I'm trying to figure out if he doesn't get it or he gets and doesn't care and wants to hang on anyway.

This kind of goes back to the question I asked a few days ago if after you lifted the sex embargo and he said he really wasn't interested in having sex with you ever again ....the vase was finally broken. You either didn't understand the question or saw it as him finding a partner to take the load off as primary. Sorry I didn't have time to address our disconnect on that then. But at the heart of that question is any sexual relationship with your husband of value to you. And second part of that is what happens once it's completely lost. More than a few forum members have told me how at some point the damage / reality was too great.

I mean if he thinks he's MR sexual prowess and good lover and you think he's pathetic, loser in bed and you need to seek sexual connecting outside rendering him a functional cuckold.....either he doesn't get that or he is the pathetic loser lover ...Mr dud instead of Mr stud and he'll settle for anything.

To me it looks like everyone is settling. You're settling for a 60% marriage and he's settling for .....whatever he gets from this. Doing the poly math let's say he's at the same 60% happy with the marriage what's that look like when you add partner(s) the diversion of time, energy, money away from the marriage. His end of this shared resource gets split yet again. Are we going from 60% satisfied to 30-40% ? The only way I see this working is if he's going from 90-95% satisfied and the fallout only causes 20-30% drop putting him where you are now. Look how long you lived that way.

I think he's hanging on hopes of " getting what we had back". Too much water under that bridge....I'd say you're gone and have been for yrs ...you're head and heart would have pulled the plug yrs ago if it weren't for the kids.

Personally I think you need to put this dog down its the humane thing to do.

That being said I know there are more than a few people out there that very very much regret decisions and actions that ended in divorce....my wife for one.
So there is the other side of that coin. I'm trying to think of the actual number .....4-5 on the forum and 3-4 in real life ....you know the forum isn't real
:D

Hope your therapy session went well.
 
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I wouldn't call it an active plan. But whenever we have the deep conversations this is usually where I end up. Accept me for being poly and realize that means that I actively date people and have relationships. And figure out what he needs in order to live with that. OR realize that this is a limitation for him and decide to leave. He sees that as an ultimatum. I see it as reality.

I see another possible reality.

If I am with a partner who struggles to deal with me poly, and I see they really don't thrive in a polyship? And this isn't like a few weeks or months but YEARS? I could kindly and gently break up with them and set them free. I don't have to wait for them to do it. *I* could just do it.

Because *I* am not happy in a relationship where my partner has never ending suffering. Easier to get through the break up suffering and they are then free to hopefully find someone more compatible to be with so their suffering can END.

Rather than be with me with no end of suffering in sight. That's not kind.

I think I am really struggling with leaving a marriage for something that *feels* very selfish.... wanting more partners, more love, more sexual connection... This decision will inflict pain and force people around me to make adjustment that none of them asked for. I really really hate that.

People have to cope with Life things all the time – some asked for, some not. That's reality too. Why does it bother you that people have to adjust to things in their Lives?

I don't think you meeting your own needs is selfish.

There's the tilted ends of the spectrum.

  • Selfish = memememe! All about me and my needs! Screw you and your needs. I'm not helping you!
  • Selfless = themthemthem! All about them! I screw myself by neglecting my own needs. I am not helping myself!

Then there's “self full” – the more balanced place in the middle. Where you meet your own needs first, so you are not burning out or run down and can run from a full gas tank. Then you can gift your help to others in helping to meet their reasonable and rational needs.

Why do you struggle to take care of you? :confused:

Also, I know that divorce or even separation means likely coming out as poly and perhaps as bi to my family or origin, which I am not too keen on doing. Either that, or just divorce on the premise of "I just dont want to anymore."

Is it because you are afraid to come out? You don't have to.

Or afraid to go through a divorce and face Life on your own? Well... you already have to face Life now.

Thing is, life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one. Hopefully therapy can help you become more decisive about how you want to be living it.

Galagirl
 
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Not one person has ever asked me why we are divorcing. Not one. Not even my mother. It's a disrespectful, intrusive question and unless you're offering to explain, it's not for anyone to know. With my parents and extended family, I kept it to "Things have been difficult for us for quite some time. It's so much better this way and we're happier already." Not one person has ever pressed the point further. You don't have to reveal any more than you're ready to and you don't have to come out as anything except the blossoming beautiful woman that you are.
 
Not one person has ever asked me why we are divorcing. Not one. Not even my mother. It's a disrespectful, intrusive question and unless you're offering to explain, it's not for anyone to know. With my parents and extended family, I kept it to "Things have been difficult for us for quite some time. It's so much better this way and we're happier already." Not one person has ever pressed the point further. You don't have to reveal any more than you're ready to and you don't have to come out as anything except the blossoming beautiful woman that you are.


I don't think you're thinking clearly on this. She can play it that way all she wants aren't you forgetting about the husband who might be already suffering from depression. He might not be so restrained or care who knows the truth and if I was her I'd count on this getting out and I thought the phrase the truth shall set you free. Isn't that the goal freedom :D
 
I thought the phrase the truth shall set you free. Isn't that the goal freedom :D

Freedom is making choices based on what is right for you, not on explaining yourself to everyone. Nobody has to be more out than s/he wants to be just because it's the "truth." Truth isn't what sets us free, claiming agency over our own lives sets us free.
 
I agree with you that she could and should stick to the tight lipped script on the reason for the divorce. However I also think she should be prepared for the truth to come out. I've seen /heard angry depressed EX spouses make up incredible shit about the other person....here she's worried about the truth.

Also in this day and age the actual truth in this case I'm not sure that will be as big a deal as it could have been 5 -15 yrs ago. I'm also of the opinion if this identity or lifestyle is important enough to divorce over than what's there to be ashamed about. Let's not forget that part of the truth is he's part of this equation. MR dud. He might not want to go down that road either. " Hey Steve what happened why you guys getting divorced .....I suck in bed and she finally had enough ...I guess she really needs a statifying sex life...who knew "


The phrase : I just thought was funny / ironic in regards to the topic of freedom......that's why I added the :D:D. Not super serious.
 
This is exactly why I chose to end my 17 year marriage. My husband and I had a great emotional connection, but the sexual aspect was severely lacking for me, not for him. We divorced over sex and the reality that he just couldn't abide a poly wife. I worried about his pain and I worried about being judged but my intuition was strong that this was what our family needed. I kept an open heart and an open mind and did not sink into guilt, which kinda kept us buoyant and out of the "guilt begets anger begets more guilt" cycle. A week after my husband moved out, he met his current GF who seems lovely and they are building their mono life together. They were here for Thanksgiving (with our two sons) and it was far from the "inflicting pain and forcing people" that I also worried about at first. It was an expanded family, a bigger table, more love. You don't need the cooperation of anyone at the outset when you make a move like this, you just need the courage of your convictions and the vision that what you foresee for yourself will benefit all concerned in the long run. This can be the best move your family ever made if you set the tone for how things go down.

Thank you for this possibility! If things dont work out for us to stay together, this is exactly what I would like to have. The ability to still share space and joy and family, and to celebrate where we are both going in life.

My friends who know about what is going on with us are all supportive of me and whatever I choose to do, so I know I have that. My family is the type to ask all of the invasive questions, so I just anticipate having to face that, even if I choose not to share details.
 
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