Charting Our Course

Thanks, PinkPig. Boots says his girlfriend and her other partner are very active in the area's poly community, so I think they've probably got things pretty well established as to how it all works and how they deal with metamours and such. I am worried about getting along with her partly because I tend to be pretty awkward, and a lot of people find that off-putting and don't get along with me because of it. But I'm also worried because of some things Boots has told me about himself. I'm not worried about those things; I'm worried because he says his girlfriend has been the one to help him the most in dealing with the things, and has been a huge support for him since they've been together. And from the sounds, she's fairly protective of him.

I guess as much as anything, I'm worried she'll think I'm not someone he should be involved with. Like I'm not good enough for him or something. Which is a worry that might make absolutely no sense, but still.
 
You're overthinking... If this isn't a "relationship" there's no need to meet his gf ever.

Personally I think anytime I hang out with someone, even a platonic friend, we are RELATING, therefore it's a relationship.

And if you're fucking someone! The hormones alone are bonding.

Think about how often you want to see him and catch yourself from thinking about him too much, or he will be a bf before you know it. Seems to me.
 
I guess as much as anything, I'm worried she'll think I'm not someone he should be involved with. Like I'm not good enough for him or something. Which is a worry that might make absolutely no sense, but still.
Did you ask him if she has veto power over his relationships? Is she in charge of deciding whom he dates, fucks, etc.?
 
Magdlyn, I do understand what you're saying. As for how much I'm going to see him, for now once a week or every other week for an actual date, depending on his schedule, and maybe a walk with him during his lunch break once or twice a week because he's trying to get more exercise and asked if I would go for walks with him. (I need the exercise too.) I'm trying not to think too much, but in this situation, I think my actions and words matter the most. Regardless of what I think--or how often I think--about him, or what my emotions do, it still isn't a relationship and he isn't a bf unless I give him an indication that I'm ready to move to that point.

The fucking may or may not be repeated, given that there currently isn't anywhere for us to be alone. He's obviously not going to bring me to where he's staying, and Hubby and I have a "no other partners in the house" agreement. So unless/until Boots gets his own place, it's either pay for a hotel room or get riskily creative. Saturday night was a case of "hmm, I wonder what he'd be like in bed"...though I have to admit I surprised myself by taking initiative, not only in suggesting it in the first place, but in what I was doing once we got there. I don't usually take initiative; I'm not comfortable enough. I wait for the guy to ask for what he wants instead of doing what I want to do. But with Boots, I was completely comfortable, didn't have my usual worry about "what if he doesn't want me to do this", and just did what I felt like doing. (And I told him how rare that is...)

I'm not going to worry about meeting Boots's girlfriend unless he asks me to. Honestly, though, despite the completely irrational worry about what she'll think of me, I would like to meet her if he and I keep spending time together. She's been a very positive force in his life, and his face lights up when he tells me things about her. If she makes him that happy, she's someone I would want to meet eventually.

Cyndie, I don't think she has veto power. He told me their only agreements are about safer sex and which nights they're together. But she does have *influence* given the nature and duration of their relationship. To be honest, if she told him she thought I wasn't good for him and didn't think he should see me, I would hope he would listen to her. But aside from whether she has any say over whether he and I see each other, I just think it would be easier if she and I got along if we meet.

One good thing about this new whatever-it-is with Boots is that it's dredging up some of the deeper problems caused by the situation with S2. That might not *sound* like a good thing, but it is because it's putting me in the position of having to deal with things I would have tried to just bury and ignore. Burying them would have led to them coming up at inopportune times. This way, I can address them now, when I'm not in a relationship, and hopefully that will make it easier to move forward with Boots, or with someone else if Boots and I don't work out.

I talked to Guy about some of this last night, which didn't end well because he's insisting S2 deliberately and maliciously lied to me the entire relationship with the sole intention of hurting me. I knew Guy didn't think much good about S2, but I didn't realize he despised him quite that much... He hung up on me when I tried to say that I don't believe S2 was being malicious, only cowardly.

The biggest problem is that S2 knows how many people in my past have told me I was worthless, didn't deserve to be loved, wasn't wanted, was too much trouble, etc. And he told me constantly that those people were wrong, that I was worth it, that I was valuable, that I am wanted and loved. Because of how I respond to dishonesty, I don't know anymore whether he meant it when he said those things, because his actions at the end would seem to show the opposite, that those people were all *right*. The only way to resolve that would seem to be asking him if he meant it...Which Hubby is pushing me to do, he says he thinks it's time I talk to S2 and sort things out, and that knowing S2 I'm the one who's going to have to reach out to start the discussion. I don't know if I can yet...And I don't think I should have to be the one to reach out, but I know Hubby's right about that part.
 
Boots and I are going out Friday night, by the way. I asked him, because I had other potential plans for this weekend and wanted to check in with him about whether he'd be free to get together.

I think I'm going to have to remind him that it's okay for him to ask me to get together as well, if he wants to. He and I both do the "well, maybe they're busy, maybe they don't really want to see me, maybe it's too soon" thought spiral, and he's told me he gets awkward and nervous about asking to see someone. The only reason our first date happened was thanks to his girlfriend giving him the Kinky Boots tickets. Given that he'd already told her he was talking to me online at that point, I suspect she suggested he ask me.

But I get awkward and nervous too. That was the main reason I established a schedule with S2; I was always the one asking to get together, and that wasn't comfortable for me. It was easier to just know that on X night and Y night, I would see him. It's hard for me to ask for anything from anyone, especially when it comes to things like dates. (And sex...)

Obviously there won't be a schedule established with Boots. Not unless this actually does become a full-fledged relationship, and even then it might be difficult to establish anything. I'm not worrying about that right now. But because he and I have the same awkwardness and "what if they say no" junk going on when it comes to asking about getting together, and because my default is to assume someone *doesn't* want to see me if they aren't asking to, I need him to be the one asking at least some of the time.

(And yes, I'm overthinking this too... I do that, which is one of the reasons I have this thread. Putting things in writing stops the thought spirals and helps me figure things out.)
 
Had a conversation with Hubby last night about agreements and boundaries. I figured if things continue with Boots, it would be good to know Hubby's thoughts about certain things, and even if things don't continue with Boots I'll know for any future whatever-it-is with anyone else.

Some of our agreements have remained the same throughout, such as the "no other partners in our home" one. But some of the original agreements were amended or thrown right out the window for S2, so I wanted to determine whether we were resetting those to factory specs, so to speak.

Hubby surprised me; he said, "I need to think more about it, but for now let's just say that whatever the agreements were with S2 are the agreements now."

I said, "What about spending the night?" In the beginning, "no overnights" was one of the most important agreements from Hubby's point of view. He couldn't deal with the thought of me spending a full night with anyone else. We amended it for S2 three or four months into that relationship as part of me establishing the schedule with S2, but even then I was only supposed to spend two nights a *month* at his place.

Yesterday, Hubby said, "Yeah, I'm okay with you spending nights as long as I know about it."

Pretty much the only thing he's undecided about at this point is whether it's "condoms until sexual health is proven" or "condoms permanently", and that's mainly because he knows about Boots's girlfriend and is having trouble with the possibility of a "vector," as he put it, of people having unprotected sex with each other. But going barrier-free with Boots isn't even on the radar right now, so I'm leaving Hubby alone to mull that one over. It's information I would like to have in case it becomes a possibility, because I'd rather know in advance than do something Hubby turns out not to be okay with, but it isn't information I need right this second.
 
Last night with Boots was awesome...except for the beginning. He was taking the train to the stop nearest my house, and I was picking him up there. I knew approximately what time he was leaving work, so I waited until about 15 minutes after that and drove to the station to wait for his text that he was there.

Didn't get a text. Sat there nearly an hour. Finally I texted him and said, "I'm here, let me know when you get here."

He said, "I'm already here. Where are you?"

I found him, and he told me he'd been there nearly an hour...He must have been on the train that arrived right after I got there. And he had texted me when he left work, when he got *on* the train, and when he got off. Not a single one of those texts had gone through. Bloody cell phone company...

Neither of us was upset though, just annoyed about the texts not going through because we'd lost an hour of time with each other.

We went out to dinner and then up to a town I thought he should see. During the drives, the dinner, the walk... we talked a lot. I keep cringing at how much I'm telling him, because I feel like I'm talking too much and also *sharing* too much, but he's so easy to talk to. He keeps telling me not to worry, he likes hearing me talk and he's glad I consider him someone I can talk to... but S2 always said the same thing, and some of the things I told him were factors in the relationship not working. I didn't tell Boots that. I'm trying to take his words at face value, and not let my interpretation be colored by what S2 said and did.

He said he wants to get his own place ASAP, in part because he wants a place where he can bring me. That's far from the only reason, but it's a reason he wants to do it sooner than later. While we were talking about where he might want to move to, I had a brainstorm... Best Friend lives in an apartment complex about a mile from where Boots is currently staying. The apartments there are nice, they're in Boots's price range, and Boots likes the town and is familiar with it. So he's going to get in touch with the complex management either today or Monday to see what they have. Bonus that if he does get a place there, I can introduce him to Best Friend and Star (who moved in with Best Friend last weekend), so he'll know other people in the area.

I told him that if he wants to talk to me, he should feel free to text or call, and if he wants to see me, he should feel free to ask. I also told him that, while I don't expect to communicate with him every day or anything, if I text him, especially if it's a direct question, and he doesn't answer for a couple of days, I start worrying whether I've done something wrong, which is a mindset he completely comprehends. I brought it up because Wednesday, I asked him about picking him up last night at a specific place, and he never answered that text; until I texted him yesterday morning to confirm, I wasn't even sure if we were still going out last night. He apologized and said he would try to make sure he at least answers questions within a few hours.

It's a fine line with him between wanting him to know who/how I really am so he knows what he's getting into, and being afraid of seeming too needy or messed-up or whatever for him to want to deal with. And I told him that too. He said I'm fine, not to worry about it. That he understands how one's thoughts can spiral, and he understands that I'm still getting over S2, and he wants to be someone I can talk to about whatever I need to talk about.

It still isn't a relationship with Boots. It's still a "see where this goes." Hell, it's only been a week since our first date. But a friend reminded me that "seeing where this goes" doesn't only mean not trying to steer it in a specific direction; it also means not trying to *prevent* it from going in a specific direction. If things with Boots head into relationship territory, whether we call it that or not, as long as I feel like I can genuinely handle it, I'm not doing anyone any favors by pushing back against it and refusing to let it happen.
 
. . . a friend reminded me that "seeing where this goes" doesn't only mean not trying to steer it in a specific direction; it also means not trying to *prevent* it from going in a specific direction. If things with Boots head into relationship territory, whether we call it that or not, as long as I feel like I can genuinely handle it, I'm not doing anyone any favors by pushing back against it and refusing to let it happen.

Yeah, that's a good realization to have had. I watched a movie at a friend's house a couple days ago and I keep remembering something one of the characters said. I think it could apply here: "Avoiding unhappiness is not the path to happiness."
 
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Boots and I now have a standing Thursday lunch/walk date. And he told me if I'm ever bored and want to meet for lunch any other day, to just let him know. I told him likewise; since I work at home, the only obligation I ever have during the day on weekdays is counseling or doctor's appointments.

If he'd said that to me earlier this morning than he did, I might have tried to meet up with him today, but it's probably just as well. Even though I do want to see him, I still need to keep that distance. Plus it's Country's last day of summer break (she starts her senior year tomorrow!), and even though she doesn't actually want to spend time with me today, I still want to be around for her.

And speaking of meeting up for lunch... I sucked up my nerve, got over the "why am I the one who has to do this", and texted S2 yesterday to see whether we could meet this week. He didn't answer until this morning, but he does want to talk, and he was making his usual lame jokes while we texted to set the time and place. So even though we do have some things to clear up, I'm hopeful this can become a friendship.
 
Met up with Boots for lunch yesterday. He admitted that his "if you ever get bored and want to do lunch, text me" on Monday was a thinly veiled hint that he wants to see me more often.

Today he and Glow (that's what I'm gonna call his girlfriend, because of how his face lights up when he talks about her), are going to look at an apartment he's thinking of renting. I said he can tell me all about it when we meet for lunch tomorrow. Hopefully it will work out, because I do want more "happy naked fun times" with him, and that can't happen unless he gets a hotel room or until he has his own place. Glow told him her mother wouldn't mind him bringing me over there, but Boots isn't comfortable with the idea and neither am I. He did contact Best Friend's building's management, but they didn't have any one-bedrooms available, so he's looking at a different place in the same town.

I'm going to get an STI screening this morning, because I just think it's a good idea to do so since I'm with a new partner. Even though unprotected sex isn't a thing that's likely to happen, at least not at this point, it's still better to know. I called the place where I had the tests done last year after S2's, um, indiscretion, and they said I don't need an appointment, I can just go in. So as soon as I finish this post and my cup of tea, I'm going. Boots said the other day that he's going to get tested again as well, since it's been several months since last time.

I'm going to talk to him about toning down the PDAs when we're out together. I don't mind when he puts his arm around me or whatever, but he takes it a little further than I'm comfortable with...and probably further than the people around us want to witness. (Just kissing, but still...pretty intense kissing.) It isn't about me being married; if people want to make assumptions about me, that's their problem, as long as it isn't anyone who knows Hubby and his family. But because I'm married, it's better to show more restraint, and like I said, I'm not comfortable with some of it anyway. So I'll bring that up when he and I do lunch tomorrow.
 
Had lunch today with Boots. Bringing up the PDA thing was easy; he kissed me, pushed it into the "intense" area, and I broke the kiss and said, "Let's not make passers-by uncomfortable." He said he likes that I think about other people with things like that.

He took the apartment he and Glow looked at yesterday. It's his as of Saturday! He won't be able to move in right away, because he has to arrange to get his furniture and stuff out of storage, but he's hoping to be in within a week or so. He's going to take me to see the place on Saturday.

Yesterday he viewed my OKC profile, so I was teasing him about that, and I said I just pop on there occasionally to delete messages. (Or, once in a great while, answer them...but mostly delete.) He said, "You can be on there for other reasons." I said, "I don't want to be. I have a finite amount of time and emotional resources, and right now I'm enjoying the time with you." He seemed pleased by that.

He spent a few minutes trying to reassure me about tomorrow's meeting with S2. He says he hopes S2 and I can become friends again, because it's obvious how happy that would make me. I'm nervous about the meeting because I feel like I need to express to S2 how I felt about his "I don't know if we can be friends, she might not like it", and I need to ask him because of that whether he was ever truthful all the times he said we would stay friends no matter what, and that I mattered to him, and that I was a valuable part of his life, and so on. I need to hear him tell me that those things were true--or hear him admit he lied. Either way, at least I'll stop wondering.

But at the same time, I don't want to be confrontational, and I don't want him to think I'm throwing it in his face. It's simply something I need to express and something I need to ask so that I can let go of all of this and move forward with my life. So I'm nervous because I haven't seen him in four weeks, and because of how our last conversation ended, and because I'm overthinking how to say what I want to say.
 
I'm nervous because I haven't seen him in four weeks, and because of how our last conversation ended, and because I'm overthinking how to say what I want to say.
I think you stated it very succinctly and non-confrontationally here:
I need to express to S2 how I felt about his "I don't know if we can be friends, she might not like it", and I need to ask him because of that whether he was ever truthful all the times he said we would stay friends no matter what, and that I mattered to him, and that I was a valuable part of his life, and so on. I need to hear him tell me that those things were true--or hear him admit he lied. Either way, at least I'll stop wondering.

But at the same time, I don't want to be confrontational, and I don't want him to think I'm throwing it in his face. It's simply something I need to express and something I need to ask so that I can let go of all of this and move forward with my life.
I think you can put it to him just like that.
 
Thanks. That kind of is how I'm hoping to bring it up. It's also going to be a matter of keeping control of my emotions, because every time I think about saying that to him, I start crying...and I don't want to cry when I talk to him. In the past, whenever I was upset about something and tried to talk to him, he couldn't completely process what I was saying, because he was too focused on "She's upset, I want her to feel better, I need to help her" instead of actually listening to what I needed from him.

So for tomorrow's discussion, I need to really lock myself down so I don't show much emotion when I talk to him, at least that part of the discussion. Because I need him to completely process and understand what I'm saying, not get sidetracked by feeling guilty or whatever that I'm upset.
 
Yep, I understand. I'm a weeper, it gushes out of me very easily, even when it's just something I need to say that's important but not upsetting. So, sometimes I've prefaced a convo with something like this:

"You know how easily I cry when I have something important to say. It happens in all kinds of scenarios when I need to express myself. I have some things I want to say to you that I feel are important, and so I would like you to remember how easily I cry and not focus on any tears that might come up, but really listen to and focus on my words - because it's okay if I cry. I won't need to be comforted for that. What I really need is for you to listen and hear me and not get sidetracked by my tears."
 
Ooh, I'll try that.

Though it's another "well, I'm a guy" trait that both S2 and Hubby tend to exhibit; they see me cry and immediately think they need to fix something or solve something... but what they're trying to fix or solve is the fact that I'm crying, not the *reason* for it. Hubby slowly has come to understand that if I'm crying, I need him to listen to me and I will tell him if I need him to help me solve something. S2 never quite managed to grasp that.
 
I can't help wondering if it would not be better to have at least part of this conversation in text or email. It might get you clearer answers. Since he seems previously to have given you responses based on not wanting to give you pain I am not sure why you expect that he would look at you in, or near, tears and be able to tell you "You are right. I lied. I did not want to be friends". Unless you think he wants to get rid of you so badly that he no longer cares if you are hurt.

leetah
 
I can't help wondering if it would not be better to have at least part of this conversation in text or email. It might get you clearer answers. Since he seems previously to have given you responses based on not wanting to give you pain I am not sure why you expect that he would look at you in, or near, tears and be able to tell you "You are right. I lied. I did not want to be friends". Unless you think he wants to get rid of you so badly that he no longer cares if you are hurt.

leetah

I agree with this. It seems like a combination of factors have made it very difficult for S2 to be honest with you about how he feels. Honestly, what he said about her not liking it would be telling enough for me. At the very least, he means that his relationship with her is more important than a friendship with you and if he has to choose one, you won't win.

I've been in a situation where the issues that a partner has managed to overshadow any joy I got out of the relationship. I felt guilty, because it wasn't his fault that he had those issues and that led me to be somewhat dishonest about my feelings. I ended up stringing him along which in truth, made his issues even worse. However, when he freaked out about something, I couldn't deal with it. I was sort of scared of him when he was like that so I "ghosted".
 
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