Let's Talk About Sex...

KC43

New member
... or, more accurately, talk about talking about sex.

My intention in starting this thread is mostly to seek reassurance that I'm not alone in having an issue like this. It gets long, because background.

I was brought up in a household where one parent, from the youngest age I can remember, told me my body was a nasty, dirty thing, and sex was a nasty, dirty thing, and if I wanted or enjoyed sex *I* was a nasty, dirty thing. (Parent #2 tried to ignore the subject--and me--while leaving porno mags all over the house.) Things other people said and did to me reinforced what parent #1 said.

My entire life became an attempt to prove everyone wrong. I wasn't a slut like they said. I had tons of self-control. I wasn't bad, nasty, dirty, or whatever. I could barely stand to let anyone touch me. Until 2006, I literally couldn't say the word "sex" without hesitating and cringing. Marriage to my first husband, whom I left in 2006, was a nightmare of having sex because he said I had to, and of completely shutting off my body because he told me I wasn't allowed to enjoy it because that would mean I was a whore and was probably cheating on him, but I had to *pretend* to enjoy it so he could feel like a man.

After I left him, I spent about a year and a half experimenting sexually, becoming comfortable with my wants and fantasies and actions (and body, and actually physically *feeling* things again), and accepting myself as a human being who could actually want and enjoy sex without it being a bad thing. It was good. I wasn't afraid anymore. I made progress.

Then Hubby came along in 2008. He said I could suggest anything I liked to him, and that if I wanted sex with him I should initiate, but when I did, he responded negatively and in doing so, undid the progress I'd made before meeting him. He taught me that initiating sex, and having sex in "unusual" positions (i.e. anything besides missionary or me on top) or anywhere other than the bedroom was unacceptable.

Since we opened our marriage in 2013, Hubby and I have done a lot of work on that. He's apologized many times for the impact his actions and words had on me. He's told me there was never anything "unacceptable" about my desires, curiosities, or *me*; he's admitted he reacted out of his own discomfort and should have just said "I'd rather not do that" instead of being judgmental. Those apologies have been accepted, but haven't undone the damage.

So now, I'm in sexual relationships with two men to whom I can't even bring myself to say, "Hey, I'd like to have sex tonight", let alone suggest trying something different, or somewhere different, or whatever. Both of them have told me they're willing to consider anything I suggest, but that doesn't help me actually speak up. It's safer to accept boring sex than to say "hey, let's try this new thing". Telling them I'm not happy with the situation is easy; I've had discussions about this with both of them. But it always comes back to "Tell me what you want to do and I'll consider it (or do it)", and even just telling them I want to have sex is too much of a risk sometimes. Left to their own volition, each of them tends to "paint by numbers", i.e. do sexual things in almost exactly the same way, same order, etc. every single time, even though I've asked them to try to be a little less predictable, at least sometimes.

At one point when I tried to explain all this to S2, his response was, "If you want to do something and can't say it, just do it"... but that's even more impossible, because to me, doing anything sexual to a partner that hasn't been done previously requires consent. If I don't say it, he can't say it's okay to try it.

Ironically, Guy, whose actions last fall (detailed in my blog, so I'm not going into it here) fed into this whole mess, is the only one I *can* talk to about sex... first, because I'm not having it with him, and second, because he has no filters and no judgment. But his only advice is "Just talk to them about it", because even though he knows my history, he can't quite comprehend not being able to talk about sex at all with partners.

So... long story short. Am I the only one who finds it difficult to talk about sex with sexual partners? How do you bring up sex-related stuff to your partners? How do you make suggestions about things you'd like to try when you aren't sure how your partner will react? Is there any hope here, or should I just resign myself to paint-by-numbers sex with my guys for the duration?
 
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How do you bring up sex-related stuff to your partners?

I just say whatever it is that I want to say:

"I was thinking about ____. I would like to try ____. How do you feel about that?"

You keep mentioning risk -- what IS the risk? Fear of rejection. Fear of judgement? Something else? :confused:

Telling them I'm not happy with the situation is easy; I've had discussions about this with both of them.

That's a good start then.

How do you make suggestions about things you'd like to try when you aren't sure how your partner will react?

We agree on "We can always ask. If both want to, we can give it a try. If it is fun, we can do it again. If it isn't, we skip it. No big deal."

At one point when I tried to explain all this to S2, his response was, "If you want to do something and can't say it, just do it"... but that's even more impossible, because to me, doing anything sexual to a partner that hasn't been done previously requires consent. If I don't say it, he can't say it's okay to try it.

Sounds to me like he's given you consent right there in bold. He's given you permission to experiment and just take the initiative. Maybe you want to verify it so you can be assured he HAS consented?

Is there any hope here, or should I just resign myself to paint-by-numbers sex with my guys for the duration?

You don't seem to want that kind of "paint by numbers" sex.

Did you have something particular in mind? Maybe people can help you with how to say if you know what it is you want to ask for.

If not, maybe you get one of those dice or card game things or even a book. And you both draw a card/pick a page at random. Then try the one of the two that sounds most fun. Just to break the ice and get more comfortable talking about it while doing new things?

Or just practice talking. Draw a card, and practice asking for it. Then draw another card. Ask for that. Not DO it.... just practice asking so it becomes less of big deal to ask. Then eventually work up to both asking AND doing.

Take it at the speed you can deal with.

Galagirl
 
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So... long story short. Am I the only one who finds it difficult to talk about sex with sexual partners? How do you bring up sex-related stuff to your partners? How do you make suggestions about things you'd like to try when you aren't sure how your partner will react? Is there any hope here, or should I just resign myself to paint-by-numbers sex with my guys for the duration?

I like Gala's card idea. I was thinking of pictures or websites, myself. Like, see if you can find a picture or fantasy story about what you'd like to do, and then have them look at it on your computer.

I would be careful about saying it's just the guys who are too predictable. You're at least 50% responsible for creativity and excitement in the bedroom. I realize that's exactly why you're here asking how to ask for specific things, I'm just saying... Maybe they don't know how to ask or suggest things either, and they're hoping you'll take the lead.

The dice are kinda cheesy, but they're great for getting the ball rolling. The ones I've seen have two dice. One is for actions and the other's for body parts. Good times. And apparently there's also an app for that. :)
 
One couple I know uses stuffed animals: one or the other will position the animals on the bed for the other to find when he/she gets home. It's kind of cute and funny and gets the communication going.

While never having been told that sex is wrong or dirty, I do find direct sex talk or "just asking for what you want" to be not only difficult but kind of a vulgar turn off. I admire people who can make their desires known in creative ways that enhance the mood. Of course, mood enhancers are different for everyone, but directly asking for what you want isn't necessarily something you should aspire to unless that's what gets you and your partners going. For me, blunt verbal sex requests are a huge turn off. I love to be shown in creative ways because that's what makes me feel desired and romanced and respected. Do you want to be able to specifically verbalize these things or would you rather be able to better communicate these things? There are many ways to creatively communicate about sex that are not verbal. Important to know which avenue gets you going.
 
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For me it's really important that I can talk directly about sex with my partners. If I couldn't feel comfortable with discussing it, I'm not sure I could be comfortable actually letting go enough to enjoy doing it, because like you I see consent as an on-going negotiation. I need to feel able to speak up if things are going in a direction I'm not in the mood for, and I can only feel free enough to explore my partner's body fully if I know they are able to as well. I do think *when* you talk about it is key though. Of course, being able to speak up in the moment to withdraw consent is essential (and it doesn't sound like this is something you would struggle with I hope), but for more general chats of the 'I've been fantasising about this recently' or 'are you interested in exploring that' type, I find the best times are either after you've had sex, or at a relaxed moment when sex is not immediately on the agenda (although often the conversation gets so heated that it can encourage a rapid reappraisal of that!).

I suppose Nina and I do have a silly sort of short-hand for quickly and easily conveying what kind of sex we are desiring in the moment as well, which might be useful for you. We're both into role-play quite a bit. Not the kind that requires lots of dressing up and elaborate set-ups; it's much more light-hearted than that. As part of it, and to help indicate to each other when one of us want to switch into play-mode, we sort of have character names for each other in our favourite roles. Our characters are into different things, some are different-gendered, some express particular traits or kinks - this in turn often entails certain toys come out of drawers quickly, or just triggers a quick shift of mood or attitude. It becomes really easy to negotiate when we're craving different things too: I might say something like 'oh, so-and-so said she might pop by later', and if Nina is not in the mood for that, she can be like 'oh damn, I already invited blah-di-blah'. It's not uncommon for several of our characters to show up in any one evening - often complicating their back-story quite a bit! :)

I think the bottom line is that we put the emphasis on fun and light-heartedness when first exploring something different for the first time. If we try something new, and we both like it, we give that character a name and play with it some more. Maybe it stays within the remit of that character, but maybe it just makes it into our regular sex-life. If we try something new and it doesn't really work out for one or both of us, then it's no big deal, we just don't repeat it. As people, Nina and I tend to be quite analytical, so maybe this is just a natural extension of that. Talking about sex is something we feel comfortable doing even with close friends, so I acknowledge that there is a lack of self-consciousness already present there.

If Happily Fallen Angel's point about it being a turn-off resonates with you, then just remember that talking about sex doesn't have to be an erotic event in itself, nor does it have to precede sex at all. It's just you and your partner giving feedback and offering reassurance to one another about past and future events. Knowing that your partner is potentially interested in anal sex, say, is not the same as agreeing that next time you have sex you will try that kind of thing. You're talking about stuff to explore together, not setting a to-do list that you then spend the next few days worrying you won't complete (which would indeed be a major turn-off). I do think there is a cycle there though. If I tried to talk about sex with a new partner, and they became embarrassed or flustered or ashamed, then it would inhibit me a lot - those associations are easily transferred! Conversely, if you can create an environment where talking about sex becomes as easy a conversation as talking about what's for dinner, then I think your lovers' reactions will also be positive and make you feel more relaxed too. If you want things to change, then you're going to have to try to speak up. Although some people do better with sexy-in-the-moment chat, others do better with unsexy-while-doing-the-washing-up chat. Try both and see how you get on?
 
I just say whatever it is that I want to say:

"I was thinking about ____. I would like to try ____. How do you feel about that?"

Yeah... that's the part that's pretty close to impossible for me. Aside from the risk (which I'll explain below), there's also the fact that since I *didn't* really experiment a lot sexually, sometimes all I know is that I want to try something different, but have no clue specifically what that might be. What I've asked the guys to do is suggest things *they* might like to try, or things they've done in the past that I might like, but S2 usually just shrugs, and Hubby usually says, "I've already tried the things I wanted to try, what do you want to try?"

You keep mentioning risk -- what IS the risk? Fear of rejection. Fear of judgement? Something else? :confused:

Mostly fear of judgment. After decades of being told I was a slut, whore, nasty, bad, whatever whenever I even asked general questions about sex, it's hard for me to deal with the possibility of someone I love saying--as Hubby actually did in the past--"People just don't do that" or something else to indicate that I'm "bad" for even thinking about anything sexual. Fear of rejection is a part too, but it's fear of them rejecting *me* overall because of judging me.

We agree on "We can always ask. If both want to, we can give it a try. If it is fun, we can do it again. If it isn't, we skip it. No big deal."

Both guys have said something similar to that to me. But that doesn't address the issue that I can't bring myself to ask in the first place.

Sounds to me like he's given you consent right there in bold. He's given you permission to experiment and just take the initiative. Maybe you want to verify it so you can be assured he HAS consented?

To most people, that would sound like consent. And he told me it *is* blanket consent. Doesn't matter. I don't work that way. I have a history of severe sexual trauma. I can barely even non-sexually touch someone without asking them "Is it okay for me to touch you". Anything sexual... doesn't matter if the guy has said "Do whatever you want." I have to hear specific consent to a specific act, unless it's been done before. Otherwise I have a panic attack out of fear that I'm forcing them to do something they don't want to do. And taking the initiative isn't currently possible for me, even if I did have--or interpret--consent. I'm too afraid, as I said above.

You don't seem to want that kind of "paint by numbers" sex.

Did you have something particular in mind? Maybe people can help you with how to say if you know what it is you want to ask for.

See above... I don't always have anything particular in mind, because I don't always know what even exists as possibilities. I just know I don't want the same thing every single blasted time.

If not, maybe you get one of those dice or card game things or even a book. And you both draw a card/pick a page at random. Then try the one of the two that sounds most fun. Just to break the ice and get more comfortable talking about it while doing new things?

I tried that with Hubby a few years ago. He was more uncomfortable with it than I was, and it was a complete disaster of judgmental proportions. Him judging me for expressing interest in some of the things on the dice *and* for getting the dice in the first place. I threw them away. (And at this point, I wouldn't be able to get one of those games or books, because thinking about buying something like that makes me feel sick...)

Take it at the speed you can deal with.

Galagirl

Thanks. Putting the rest into another post, because this one will be over the word limit otherwise...
 
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I like Gala's card idea. I was thinking of pictures or websites, myself. Like, see if you can find a picture or fantasy story about what you'd like to do, and then have them look at it on your computer.

Ironically, I write--or did until I started all this struggling--erotica and erotic romance. Some of the few times in the early years of our relationship that Hubby and I had good, enjoyable sex were because he read one of my stories. And S2 has also read pretty much all the erotica I've written. It doesn't help, because it doesn't translate for him from "she wrote about this" to "I wonder if she'd like to try it".

I would be careful about saying it's just the guys who are too predictable. You're at least 50% responsible for creativity and excitement in the bedroom. I realize that's exactly why you're here asking how to ask for specific things, I'm just saying... Maybe they don't know how to ask or suggest things either, and they're hoping you'll take the lead.

They are expecting me to take the lead. That's the issue. And I am ONLY 50% responsible, but they're putting the entire responsibility on me by telling me to "just do things" or "just ask", and not respecting my statements that I need THEM to take some initiative as well, I need THEM to "just ask", I need THEM to realize how difficult this is for me and stop making me feel like *I'm* the only problem. I've said that to them in so many words, and they know my history and know WHY this is such a problem for me, but they persist in "Just ask or just do" and in making me feel like it's entirely on me if I'm not happy with the sexual aspect of the relationships.

While never having been told that sex is wrong or dirty, I do find direct sex talk or "just asking for what you want" to be not only difficult but kind of a vulgar turn off. I admire people who can make their desires known in creative ways that enhance the mood. Of course, mood enhancers are different for everyone, but directly asking for what you want isn't necessarily something you should aspire to unless that's what gets you and your partners going. For me, blunt verbal sex requests are a huge turn off. I love to be shown in creative ways because that's what makes me feel desired and romanced and respected. Do you want to be able to specifically verbalize these things or would you rather be able to better communicate these things? There are many ways to creatively communicate about sex that are not verbal. Important to know which avenue gets you going.

None of it gets me going. Communicating about sex is right up there with root canals and waxing on my list of things I want to do. But without communication, nothing's going to change.

I have no clue what gets either of the guys going. I've asked point blank for some guidance, hints, examples, anything to show me how to communicate that will work for them, and again, I get shrugs or "I don't know". Neither of them makes any attempt to communicate about sex at all, they just start kissing and groping and checking out my body language to see if I'm into it or not, and both have said they don't really like communicating about anything "because I'm a guy."

In reading what you've said, though, I am seeing one of my "buttons": "Romance" has nothing to do with sex, in my experience and in my mindset. Love doesn't really have anything to do with it either. It's a physical act that can be fun, or not, that people do when they're in relationships because that's what people do in relationships, but in my brain there is no connection at all between sex and either love or romance.

For me it's really important that I can talk directly about sex with my partners. If I couldn't feel comfortable with discussing it, I'm not sure I could be comfortable actually letting go enough to enjoy doing it, because like you I see consent as an on-going negotiation. I need to feel able to speak up if things are going in a direction I'm not in the mood for, and I can only feel free enough to explore my partner's body fully if I know they are able to as well.

YES! This. I can't bring myself to even touch my partner unless he touches me first, or unless I've gotten some type of "consent" from him, whether that's verbal or body language or whatever. I do speak up when I'm not okay with what's happening; I don't have any problem with that. What I have a problem with is speaking about what I *would be* okay with if it happened, or having my partners actually do things that we haven't done before.

That said, they do know my history, and I'm sure part of their reluctance is that they don't want to trigger me. But I've told both of them all of my sexual triggers that I'm aware of, and that outside of those things I am able to tell them if they do something I don't want them to do, but they still stay in the "safe zone". Which is more my issue than theirs, I guess.

I do think *when* you talk about it is key though. Of course, being able to speak up in the moment to withdraw consent is essential (and it doesn't sound like this is something you would struggle with I hope), but for more general chats of the 'I've been fantasising about this recently' or 'are you interested in exploring that' type, I find the best times are either after you've had sex, or at a relaxed moment when sex is not immediately on the agenda (although often the conversation gets so heated that it can encourage a rapid reappraisal of that!).

I don't speak up in the moment because I pretty much don't do anything in the moment other than react/respond to whatever my partner's doing. That's the "risk" thing again; if I take any physical initiative, they might reject me for it and tell me what a shitty, slutty whore I am. It's "safer" to just let them do things to me and react if I feel it's okay to do so. Neither of them seems to mind that; at least, both have said they don't care if I touch them and both say they don't really get anything out of receiving oral, so as long as I move around and make noises when they're doing things to me, I guess they're good.

I think the bottom line is that we put the emphasis on fun and light-heartedness when first exploring something different for the first time.

For me, sex *isn't* fun or lighthearted, and I think that's the biggest problem. It's something you do in a relationship because physical connection is part of relationships, and sometimes it feels good, but that's about it. I think one of the things I'm trying to do by changing how it is with Hubby or S2 is to *make* it fun, but right now it's just something that occasionally happens.

If Happily Fallen Angel's point about it being a turn-off resonates with you, then just remember that talking about sex doesn't have to be an erotic event in itself, nor does it have to precede sex at all. It's just you and your partner giving feedback and offering reassurance to one another about past and future events. Knowing that your partner is potentially interested in anal sex, say, is not the same as agreeing that next time you have sex you will try that kind of thing. You're talking about stuff to explore together, not setting a to-do list that you then spend the next few days worrying you won't complete (which would indeed be a major turn-off). I do think there is a cycle there though. If I tried to talk about sex with a new partner, and they became embarrassed or flustered or ashamed, then it would inhibit me a lot - those associations are easily transferred! Conversely, if you can create an environment where talking about sex becomes as easy a conversation as talking about what's for dinner, then I think your lovers' reactions will also be positive and make you feel more relaxed too. If you want things to change, then you're going to have to try to speak up. Although some people do better with sexy-in-the-moment chat, others do better with unsexy-while-doing-the-washing-up chat. Try both and see how you get on?

I've been trying to speak up. That's the point of this thread. I *can't* speak up, or at least can't right now. It doesn't matter what the context is, or the setting, or the timing, or what specifically we're talking about... I can't be the one to bring it up. I'm sort of able to talk about it if one of the guys brings up something, but as I said, that pretty much doesn't happen.

And while I completely understand what everyone's saying, and agree with most of it... why is it all on me? Why am I--the one with all the fucked-up upbringing and sexual trauma and issues on top of issues--the one who's supposed to be communicating about all of this and opening the subject every time? Why isn't it their responsibility too, instead of them just waiting for me to say something and then giving me shrugs or "I don't know" or "well, what do you want?"

That's me venting... sorry... but it makes things so much more difficult when neither of them seems to want to talk about anything sexual and don't seem to care that it's always missionary position (S2) or always in the morning in bed under the covers (Hubby). Maybe I am the one with the problem here... maybe sex isn't supposed to be varied or interesting, and they're right and I'm wrong.

From the responses I'm getting, I'm guessing that last sentence isn't true, but that's how I feel... and since they're my partners, they're the templates I have to go by to figure out what is and isn't okay.
 
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By the way... for anyone who's wondering... I am in counseling and have been for a long time. But I have the same problem talking to counselors or other health professionals about sex as talking to partners about it, plus due to insurance I just changed counselors and have only seen the new one once, which means I don't know her well enough to feel comfortable even explaining the issues, let alone trying to solve them yet. And the last one heard me say "Talking about sex with my partners is scary, and difficult almost to the point of being impossible," more than once; repeated it to show she'd heard me; and then said, "Well, just talk to them about it."
 
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By the way... for anyone who's wondering... I am in counseling and have been for a long time. But I have the same problem talking to counselors or other health professionals about sex as talking to partners about it, plus due to insurance I just changed counselors and have only seen the new one once, which means I don't know her well enough to feel comfortable even explaining the issues, let alone trying to solve them yet.

Seems like you are a bit obsessed about sex.

I would counsel you and your partners to focus on love, and the sex will follow. If it doesn't, it doesn't really matter anyway. It's just sex. You can make love without having sex.
 
Love and sex have no relation to each other.

And I fail to see how asking for help and advice on improving our sex life is "obsessed with sex".

Thank you for giving me EXACTLY the type of judgmental bullshit that makes me feel like a worthless whore when I reach out for help with this kind of thing.
 
Love and sex have no relation to each other.

And I fail to see how asking for help and advice on improving our sex life is "obsessed with sex".

Thank you for giving me EXACTLY the type of judgmental bullshit that makes me feel like a worthless whore when I reach out for help with this kind of thing.

Oh , my.

Hello.

God made sex to be a pleasurable expression of love between a man and a woman, so they do go together. It's just that man has perverted that into SEX being the all pervasive holy grail. I'm sure you get what I am saying.

I am speaking against sex being the holy grail, and giving credit to LOVE being the all-important goal in life.

I enjoy sex and think it's fun if it works out, but if you find you have repeated issues with it, it might mean God wants you to lay the practice of it to rest for a bit while you build your relationship in other loving ways.

God bless~
 
And while I completely understand what everyone's saying, and agree with most of it... why is it all on me? Why am I--the one with all the fucked-up upbringing and sexual trauma and issues on top of issues--the one who's supposed to be communicating about all of this and opening the subject every time? Why isn't it their responsibility too, instead of them just waiting for me to say something and then giving me shrugs or "I don't know" or "well, what do you want?"

That's me venting... sorry... but it makes things so much more difficult when neither of them seems to want to talk about anything sexual and don't seem to care that it's always missionary position (S2) or always in the morning in bed under the covers (Hubby). Maybe I am the one with the problem here... maybe sex isn't supposed to be varied or interesting, and they're right and I'm wrong.


Oof. Yeah, I get the frustration now. It SHOULDN'T be all on you, but it is, and for no other reason than that both of your partners seem content with the situation as it stands, and you are not. It's shitty and unfair, but that's kind of how it seems from all you've said. Neither of them feels a lack; if they did, they'd be working with you more here. I don't really know what to suggest here for you. :(

How bluntly have you phrased this to them? I'm wondering if you need to just tell them that the sex you're having with them is lousy and repetitive and that until sex becomes exciting again, you're just not up for it. I know that has the potential to backfire and drive a wedge between you all, but right now it seems like they are just not interested in working with you on this.

(And no, you're not the weirdo here)
 
I can appreciate given your background that this is hard. You seem to want to overcome it though. I see two main areas.

You all create a climate that is safe for you to ask for things you might like.

No judgements is (their job) toward that mission. They could create a space where you are encouraged to speak without fear of judgement. They do it by practicing active listening. And identifying what kinds of listening is poor listening and not doing it.

You figuring out what forms of communication you are willing to do is (your job) toward that mission. What kind of communication is doable for you?
  • Face to face oral? Like talking in person?
  • Oral, but not face to face. Like talking on the phone?
  • Written? Long hand or email?
  • Pointing with a finger?
  • Something else?

What communication method you might be willing to try, if even at a stretch.

The second area is creating an expectation that ALL contribute to problem solving.

(Their job) toward that mission is to work to become more responsive/participate. You have raised the flag to make them aware of the issue. That took a lot. So... what are their ideas for problem solving? Not just fobbing it all on you. That's passive. And expecting you to carry it, rather than expecting themselves to help you carry it.

(Your job) toward that mission is showing up with your own ideas to solving it.

What are the habits you guys have around sex communication? Maybe that's something to examine too.

When we share sex we almost always check in to start (ex: he's getting over an injury so I want to know if his leg is ok today or I should keep away from that leg). We almost always ask at the end -- "Are you good? Can I do anything else for you now or next time?" Which is an open ended question, but perhaps adapting the habit for yourself might be making it a closed question they can ask you or you ask them. Checking in, and checking out in a good way.

Are you comfortable with communication DURING sex? Because I'm like the weatherman -- if I get a leg cramp, I speak up. "Hang on! Leg cramp!" Or if I get an urge for X, I will suggest it/ask for some.

It doesn't help, because it doesn't translate for him from "she wrote about this" to "I wonder if she'd like to try it".

Have you asked them

"Could you pick something from one of my erotic stories to try with me?" or if that is too bold for you right now... "Have you ever wondered if I wanted to try the things I write in my erotica?"

They are expecting me to take the lead. That's the issue. And I am ONLY 50% responsible, but they're putting the entire responsibility on me by telling me to "just do things" or "just ask"

How about being more specific than "just do things" or "just ask?" Otherwise y'all get suck on that hump.

For example, if you are comfortable enough talking over email, could you send them both a

"Could you be willing to come up with 1 new idea to talk about Friday?"

Then everyone knows to show up with 1 idea and by when.

Also discuss the safe climate thing when the appointment time comes.

"You can say you are up for the idea or not up for the idea. That's it. No passing judgement like "That's a stupid idea." I am working on getting comfortable on even talking about it at all. I'd like your encouragement as I try to do this. I also would like your reassurance that all I will see is a generic 'yes, I am up for it at this time' or 'no, I am not up for it at this time. ' "

If oral communication is too hard, maybe write the idea thing on an index card. Or stick with the email.

Could small steps like that help?

It's always missionary position (S2) or always in the morning in bed under the covers (Hubby). Maybe I am the one with the problem here... maybe sex isn't supposed to be varied or interesting, and they're right and I'm wrong.

I'd have a problem with boring, stuck in a rut sex. It isn't about being "right" or "wrong" but what I want at this time. I love all the things we do, but I like variety too. Doing it the same way all the time, even if I like it? Can get stale. I like ice cream, but I don't want it at every meal!

Could starting where you are at and adding simple variants help you get better at asking? Like if you always have missionary in the dark, how about having it with a closet light on? Or you on the edge of the bed with him standing. Rather than him laying on top.

Or with the other one -- always in the morning... how about at night? Or "not allowed" to make any noise at all to see which one makes a noise first?

Tiny tweaks. More for practice of asking to start, then moving on to exploring what you want to be exploring.

I get that it is uncomfortable for you. But growth happens at the edges of the comfort zone.

There's slightly uncomfortable, and being willing to put up with some slight discomfort for future changes that you want. And then there's MEGA uncomfortable/taking on too much at once. Don't let yourself panic attack... just remind yourself you are not looking for mega changes here. Just looking for something small uncomfortable. What would be on your list of those?

Could that approach help you manage the anxiety surrounding this?

I don't always have anything particular in mind, because I don't always know what even exists as possibilities.

Could you ask them if they are willing to do this sheet and share the results with you?

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Open-Relationship-Checklist-OU.pdf

Perhaps "knowing ahead of time" what is generally ok with each one from a pool of possibilities gives you the confidence to ask for a specific item some time without fear that you will be judged by him? Cuz it's from his list, right?

Galagirl
 
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Oof. Yeah, I get the frustration now. It SHOULDN'T be all on you, but it is, and for no other reason than that both of your partners seem content with the situation as it stands, and you are not. It's shitty and unfair, but that's kind of how it seems from all you've said. Neither of them feels a lack; if they did, they'd be working with you more here. I don't really know what to suggest here for you. :(

Thank you for understanding! Yeah, they do both seem content with the status quo sexually. They aren't okay with my unhappiness; they want me to be happy, but we're fumbling around with how to make that happenl.

How bluntly have you phrased this to them? I'm wondering if you need to just tell them that the sex you're having with them is lousy and repetitive and that until sex becomes exciting again, you're just not up for it. I know that has the potential to backfire and drive a wedge between you all, but right now it seems like they are just not interested in working with you on this.

I've been pretty blunt. Some of what I've said in this thread, I've said to them word for word, because both of them have told me many times that no matter what the problem is, they want me to be honest and "bludgeon them over the head" as S2 put it, until they understand and help me solve the problem. They've expressed an interest in solving the problem about sex, but right now they apparently aren't interested enough to make their own moves toward solving it, only to following my moves.

(And no, you're not the weirdo here)

Thanks :D I am a weirdo, but in a good way, I hope... LOL

Oh , my.

Hello.

God made sex to be a pleasurable expression of love between a man and a woman, so they do go together. It's just that man has perverted that into SEX being the all pervasive holy grail. I'm sure you get what I am saying.

I am speaking against sex being the holy grail, and giving credit to LOVE being the all-important goal in life.

I enjoy sex and think it's fun if it works out, but if you find you have repeated issues with it, it might mean God wants you to lay the practice of it to rest for a bit while you build your relationship in other loving ways.

God bless~

With all due respect, you are speaking from YOUR personal beliefs, which I do not share. I'm glad if this works for you. It doesn't work for me.

I've had issues around sex MY ENTIRE LIFE because of abusive behavior, actions, and words on the part of the people who were supposed to teach, support, and love me. That isn't God's handiwork. You're welcome to believe what you like, but please don't expect me to embrace beliefs that run counter to everything *I* see to be true.

In addition, you know nothing about my relationships other than what I've posted. You know nothing about how loving they are or aren't, or about how big a part sex does or doesn't play in them.

I can appreciate given your background that this is hard. You seem to want to overcome it though.

Thank you for understanding. And yes, I do want to overcome it... but at the same time, I *don't*, because of all the negative memory-voices telling me I shouldn't. So that's a complication.

To me it sounds like you all need to create a climate that is safe for you to take the initiative in along with them also being more responsive/taking some initiative. You have raised the flag to make them aware of the issue. So... what's their ideas for problem solving? Not just fobbing it all on you.

Exactly. They have told me over and over that they are my "safe places." In general, that's true. But when it comes to sex, I don't feel safe talking to them usually, because of Hubby's reactions when I tried in the past.

S2's suggestion for problem-solving was as I said, "Just do it if you can't say it," which has been amended to "Write it down and I'll read it" now that he understands why "just do it" isn't a viable solution for me. Hubby doesn't make suggestions, he just says he's sad for me that this is such a problem.

When we share sex we almost always check in to start (ex: he's getting over an injury so I want to know if his leg is ok today or I should keep away from that leg).

We almost always ask at the end -- "Are you good? Can I do anything else for you now or next time?" Which is an open ended question, but perhaps adapting it for yourself might be making it a closed question they can ask you. Or if right after sex is too soon, the next morning or whatever you like.

Are you comfortable with communication DURING sex? Because I'm like the weatherman -- if I get a leg cramp, I speak up. "Hang on! Leg cramp!" Or if I get an urge for X, I will suggest it/ask for some.

See... I wish we could do the check in thing! It doesn't happen. With both of them, sex is pretty much a nonverbal thing. They do; I react, respond, or tell them not to do it. Once in a great while I'm able to say something like "I'd like to be on top this time", but that's about it.

During sex, I can communicate about physical or emotional discomfort, but not about wants or desires. Usually *during*, I'm not thinking or engaged enough to want anything anyway; I just deal with whatever they're doing.

Again, could be specific. Have you asked them

"Could you pick something from one of my erotic stories to try with me?"

I said that to Hubby once and he said, "I really would rather not read your stories anymore, because then I feel like I have to give you feedback about them." I didn't bother suggesting it to S2, mainly because the stories he's read involve things that wouldn't be possible for us to try for various reasons.

What kind of communication is doable for you? Face to face oral? Like talking in person? Oral, but not face to face. Like talking on the phone? Written? Charades? Something else? It's hard to give suggestions for you when you do not list what you might be willing to do, if even at a stretch.

Written communication is easiest for me, because it gives me more time to think and explain things clearly. The one time I've made progress in discussing these issues with S2 was when I wrote him a letter. And like I said above, he's told me he's happy to have me write down things I want to do sexually, and he'll read them and consider them. But then I would have to either be present when he reads them, which doesn't feel any safer to me, or I would have to leave the written thing with him. Which would result in me agonizing about how he would respond or if he would even read it at all.

Talking on the phone is entirely out of the question; I have auditory processing difficulties, so if I can't see the person who's speaking, I often miss at least half of what they say.

How about being more specific than "just do things" or "just ask?" Otherwise y'all get suck on that hump.

For example, if you are comfortable enough talking over email, could you send them both a

"Could you be willing to come up with 1 new idea to talk about Friday?"

Then everyone knows to show up with 1 idea and by when.

Also discuss the safe climate thing when the appointment time comes.

That's a good idea. I don't know if either of them would agree to it; Hubby in particular tends to refuse any time I say "On this day, could we set aside time to talk about this situation". But it's something that might work for *me* if they did agree to it. (The conversations would be separate. The guys don't interact or even see each other unless Alt or Country has an event they want both guys to attend.)

"You can say you are up for the idea or not up for the idea. That's it. No passing judgement like "That's a stupid idea." I am working on getting comfortable on even talking about it at all. I'd like your encouragement and reassurance that all I will see is a generic 'yes up for it at this time' or 'no not up for it at this time. ' "

If oral communication is too hard, just write the thing on an index card. Or stick with the email.

Could small steps like that help?

It might. Them saying judgmental things probably isn't an issue in reality, only in my perception. S2 has never said anything even slightly judgmental, and Hubby has apologized for the times he did and has promised me he will never say anything like that again. That doesn't stop the fear, though...

What IS missionary stuff for you guys? Could starting there and adding simple variants help you get better at asking? Like if you always have missionary in the dark, how about having it with a closet light on? OR with the other one -- always in the morning... how about at night?

With both guys, the lights are always on during sex. If I can't see my partner, trauma-related "landmines" start going off in my head. The last thing I did manage to express to S2 was that the way he positioned himself in missionary, I couldn't see his face and that was a huge problem; he's changed his actions so that I can see his face at least at least most of the time.

Hubby isn't home at night; he works until well after I've gone to bed.
 
God made sex to be a pleasurable expression of love between a man and a woman, so they do go together. It's just that man has perverted that into SEX being the all pervasive holy grail. I'm sure you get what I am saying.

Not really, no. Sure, I get that sex is a pleasurable expression of love between a man and a woman (or a woman and a woman, or a man and a man, or a woman and a man and a man, and so on, for that matter) but you lost me at the God part. Imaginary beings are not my forte.

I enjoy sex and think it's fun if it works out, but if you find you have repeated issues with it, it might mean God wants you to lay the practice of it to rest for a bit while you build your relationship in other loving ways.

Assuming that the OP believes in God is a bit presumptuous on your part, no? Or that even that if she does, that this has anything at all to do with her situation?

*grumpy Atheist will now go back to being unobtrusive in the corner, hoping her point about how rude it is to make blanket-statements or push one's spiritual beliefs upon others has been made*
 
Galagirl, I see you added some things while I was typing my response to what you'd posted, so I'm going to try to sort out the new bits and answer. Thank you for all your time with this!

No judgements is (their job) toward that mission. They could create a space where you are encouraged to speak without fear of judgement. They do it by practicing active listening. And identifying what kinds of listening is poor listening and not doing it.

I think we're okay on this part. Neither of them does express judgment. The fear comes from *me*, not them, and no amount of encouragement or active listening on their part seems to help in lessening the fear. They both do try to listen actively, and follow my lead or requests on "When I say this, please respond in such-and-such a way so I know you've understood." Neither of them enjoys communicating, but both have expressed willingness to try because they want me to be happy in the relationships.

You figuring out what forms of communication you are willing to do is (your job) toward that mission. What kind of communication is doable for you?
  • Face to face oral? Like talking in person?
  • Oral, but not face to face. Like talking on the phone?
  • Written? Long hand or email?
  • Pointing with a finger?
  • Something else?

What communication method you might be willing to try, if even at a stretch.

I answered this above; written communication is easiest for me because it gives me time to think about how to phrase what I mean, and takes away the pressure I feel when speaking to someone (oral communication). I feel pressure when speaking because many people in my life have interrupted, invalidated, or gotten angry or impatient when I try to talk to them. Hubby frequently interrupts or gets impatient. On the other hand, he also frequently refuses to read anything I write down for him. S2 is completely willing to read anything I write down if it's an attempt to solve an issue and/or improve the relationship.

The second area is creating an expectation that ALL contribute to problem solving.

(Their job) toward that mission is to work to become more responsive/participate. You have raised the flag to make them aware of the issue. That took a lot. So... what are their ideas for problem solving? Not just fobbing it all on you. That's passive. And expecting you to carry it, rather than expecting themselves to help you carry it.

(Your job) toward that mission is showing up with your own ideas to solving it.

I understand what you're saying. So far, my idea for solving the problem is for them to take a more active role in helping me solve it... that seems to be taking us in a circle.

What are the habits you guys have around sex communication? Maybe that's something to examine too.

We don't really communicate about it because of discomfort on one or both parts. As I said above, sex with either of them is pretty much nonverbal on their parts. They act, they don't talk.

I'd have a problem with boring, stuck in a rut sex. It isn't about being "right" or "wrong" but what I want at this time. I love all the things we do, but I like variety too. Doing it the same way all the time, even if I like it? Can get stale. I like ice cream, but I don't want it at every meal!

In the letter I wrote S2, I told him "Vanilla's a good flavor sometimes, but once in a while I'm in the mood for chocolate"... so yeah, I have managed to express that to each of the guys. They agree that variety and having fun and being interested and mentally engaged in sex is a good thing. But they seem to be waiting for me to tell them how to vary things and make them fun...

Or with the other one -- always in the morning... how about at night? Or "not allowed" to make any noise at all to see which one makes a noise first?

That last bit would be completely out of the question. Part of the mindfuck my ex did on me was forbidding me to make even the slightest sound during sex because "Someone might hear us and know what we're doing, and then they'll think you're a slut." After I left him, it took me months to allow myself to even gasp during sex, and what finally got me over it was a male friend of mine daring me to masturbate to orgasm while he listened on the phone, meaning I had to make noise so he would know what I was doing. I don't have any problems making noise now, but being *forbidden* to, even if it's a playful thing (or during a BDSM scene with Hubby) is a massive trigger for me.

Tiny tweaks. More for practice of asking to start, then moving on to exploring what you want to be exploring.

I get that it is uncomfortable for you. But growth happens at the edges of the comfort zone.

There's slightly uncomfortable, and being willing to put up with some slight discomfort for future changes that you want. And then there's MEGA uncomfortable/taking on too much at once. Don't let yourself panic attack... just remind yourself you are not looking for mega changes here. Just looking for something small uncomfortable. What would be on your list of those?

I hear what you're saying on this. The problem is that we're dealing with each of the guys' comfort zones as well as mine, and they aren't giving me enough feedback or guidance on where their zones are, even though I've asked several times. I know *my* comfort zones pretty well, but one of mine is staying within, or just outside, the boundaries of my partner's zone, and I can't do that without knowing those boundaries.

Could you ask them if they are willing to do this sheet and share the results with you?

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Open-Relationship-Checklist-OU.pdf

Perhaps "knowing ahead of time" what is generally ok with each one from a pool of possibilities gives you the confidence to ask for a specific item some time without fear that you will be judged by him? Cuz it's from his list, right?

Galagirl

S2 *might* be willing, if I can work up the nerve to ask him. (Difficulty asking for things isn't exclusive to sex for me; I was brought up never to ask for anything I wanted or needed from anyone ever. Sex is just the *most* difficult thing.) Hubby wouldn't be. He doesn't do questionnaires, or read anything when I ask him to. I asked him to read this thread and he didn't even answer, just said, "I have to go take a shower" and left the room.

I've asked each of them what they are and aren't okay with. From S2 I got "I don't like excessive pain, but some scratching or biting is okay, and otherwise I don't know." From Hubby I got "I'm okay with whatever you want to try", but then he isn't willing to try "whatever I want to try" on the rare occasions I manage to suggest anything, which just compounds the problem.
 
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Seems like you are a bit obsessed about sex.

I would counsel you and your partners to focus on love, and the sex will follow. If it doesn't, it doesn't really matter anyway. It's just sex. You can make love without having sex.
A lot of times, I find the opposite to be true; focus on sex, and the love will follow. The reason for this is that sex can help foster bonds in ways that talking, cuddling and doing other activities can not. Sex is not a small thing. Sex is not everything, but in most people's lives it is a big thing. Being seen and met sexually can feel wonderful.

My boyfriend has had a lot of non string sex ("just sex") and sex in relationships with less emotional weight. But he actually says that, although being attracted to my looks and personality from the start, the thing that really told him "maybe this is the woman I have been dreaming about" was the way I behaved the first time we shared a bed. I am not sexually shy, and I am not emotionally shy, and I have a lot of relationship experience, and I felt very forward in just reaching out to him in ways that were to me very natural and simple, but to him he had never had before and were simply amazed by the whole experience. He felt LOVED by the way I made love to him, he felt like I CARE about him and am CURIOUS about him. And that is very strong that he should feel all of that despite the fact the he felt somewhat used for sex in his last relationship. I have felt throught our relationship that it is not just that sex is fun and enjoyable, but it is also a sort of language that we can use to get to know each other and tell each other how much we appreciate each other. After two years we are still so curious about each other. I still think he is amazing through and through, so handsome and I enjoy having sex with him even on days when he is tired or comes to soon or things are not like perfect, but our connection is there and I know most of the time will be so so good. Sometimes we will not get along so great and after having had an amazing meeting in bed we will not fret about details. At other times, we work on our communication and find that through some magic, even our sex life has improved. It is really a circle.

I remember one of the few discussions my dad and I ever had about sex (he is not fond about talking about emotions or his sex life, I mostly do those things with my mum), it was a poor couple on tv talking about how they had very little money to do romantic things, but then added "But we do enjoy sex a lot. Sex is our hobby" or something along the lines of that. I was a teenager and that sort of talking made me giggle, and me dad just said matter of fact "But it is important. Sex is important for love". My dad has been married to my mum two years longer than I have lived, so I guess he knows what he is talking about.
 
Oh, I understand.

I just do not agree. Though I might have in my pagan past. :)

First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes J in a baby carriage. :p


Seriously, the scriptures state that Adam saw his wife and knew she was the one, he left his father and mother, and joined his 'wife' then they became one flesh. He did not join his fwb and they got closer in flesh, and then he made her his temporary wife.
 
It's just an imaginary story, but I'm curious to know who Adam's parents were. I thought he was the first man.
:confused:

He was the first called man, the first man who was chosen to know and worship God. The first real man who was the final intention of God.

And the scripture is written like this, more as the present tense than as Adam himself: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

The point being that man is only sexual with his wife, after she is his wife.
 
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