Let's Talk About Sex...

I'm considering everyone's considered advice. If something wouldn't work, should I just keep my mouth shut? Or should I pretend it will work? Not sure what you expect... this is a dialogue, in my opinion, and I process things by typing responses to what others have said. I have acknowledged the things that I can try, and have noted the things that I don't believe I can at this point.

I also have obviously not been clear in some of my posts, and am trying to clarify myself.

Sorry you feel dismissed and in turn find it necessary to be dismissive. I did thank you for taking the time to respond, and I still appreciate it.

Sorry, KC, I was too harsh.

I understand is it common of survivors of abuse to naysay well meant advice. Partly it is you practicing saying "No," now that you can. In the past, your will was runover by your abusers.

And partly is comes from your ingrained victim mentality. You learned to make excuses for your abusers. You're used to coming up with reasons to believe unbelievable things. Every time someone says something against Hubby or S2, you come to their defense.

Also, I don't expect you to become healthy and totally juicy and sexually fulfilled this week just because you started this thread.

Writing fiction is healthy for you. I did mean that sincerely. It does help survivors take control of their own presents. To write about things that were done to you in the past, to even take sexual pleasure in them, to share the stories with others, this is healing. And masturbation is also a wonderful thing to do for yourself. You could give yourself permission to have wild crazy beautiful sex with yourself. No one else involved to be afraid of.

Now, Hubby. He stays hours late at work to avoid you and the kids. He spends hours locked in the basement when he IS home, ignoring you and the kids. He is away for potential family time in the evenings, he sleeps through the kids' morning routines.

Is he A) Aspergers B) Cybering with others or C) Depressed? Or is it D) All of the above?

Does he ever romance you? Do you go on dates?
 
Thank you, Magdlyn. That last post means a lot.

It's partly being able to say no, and partly that this is how I process things. Look at it, think about it, type about it...and sometimes say why something doesn't seem like it would work so someone can tell me how it *could*, because I don't always see that for myself.

I agree with some of what's been said about Hubby and S2 in this thread, but I also know that because of my history, I sometimes see and express behavior more harshly than it really is. It might be how I perceive it at that moment, but when someone responds, I can see where my perception was off, or where I've expressed myself poorly. Sometimes it *isn't* off, but when it is, I want to note that so I'm not being dishonest, if that makes sense.

With the writing...one of the reasons I started this thread is that these issues have ground my erotic romance writing to a complete halt. I'm hoping that even if I don't feel I can put some things into practice with either guy, I'll at least be able to use the info and thought processes to get over the fear of writing my stories, since I have a publisher expecting my next book by the end of the summer...This thread is about trying to improve things with the guys, but working through this is also helping to move the block I've put up against writing sex scenes.

We're pretty sure Hubby's an Aspie. Country is diagnosed with Aspergers, and Hubby's behavior is way too similar in some ways to hers for him not to be somewhere on the autism spectrum. He does sometimes try to be more social and interactive, but it's so uncomfortable for him that it's almost painful.

He takes me on dates if I want him to, but I've stopped asking because his discomfort if we go to a restaurant or other public place is so obvious that it kills any fun I might have.

His sleep schedule is partly avoidance, but also due to his work schedule and how he's geared. Even when he's home, he can't fall asleep before midnight or so, if then. Doesn't help with the family interaction, but it isn't entirely a choice on his part.

I was thinking more about your previous post too...One thing in this whole process is setting limits, something only Guy has ever actually asked me to do. In those terms--and now that I think about it, I think I told Guy this-- cyber sex, whether in text or on can, is a hard limit for me. There are other things that might be soft limits, or might not be limits at all once I've mulled them over.
 
Would it be an option to NOT go to a public place? For instance, order some nice food as takeaway and take it to a park, or go to a restaurant and ask for a restaurant in a private booth or in a corner all by yourself?
 
It might be. I'll talk to Hubby about it. Right now the difficulty is arranging time for a date because of his work/sleep/not coming home schedule, but I've been trying to get through to him about how important it is to me that our time as a couple not suffer just because he "doesn't feel like it" or "forgets to come home" or whatever his excuse is that day.

But yeah, going on a non-public date (even though being on a picnic or something is still public, he at least wouldn't have to interact with anyone other than me) might work better for him. I'm trying to get him to take me for a boat ride, since it's summer now and driving the work boats is one of his few completely comfortable times. But he's been putting it off because this year, he has more in-office responsibilities than in the past because his dad has semi-retired, so it isn't as easy for Hubby to leave the office and hop on board one of the work boats as it has been in the past.
 
OK, Hubby is Aspie. That explains a lot. You must know the characteristics and the thought processes they have, since your child is diagnosed with it.

Hubby has no conception of others' feelings or needs which differ from his own. So, of course, he pays no attention to your requests for more closeness, or to read something you wrote, your erotica, your thread here, etc.

Aspies also love their routines. So the boring sex he gets from you is part of this. It serves his need to cum. Your needs for other kinds of sex are alien to him.

Aspies love their computers. So of course he spends more time on his than interacting with you or the kids.

I had an Aspie bf for 2 1/2 years. And my Dad is also Aspie. So I know exactly what you're going through. Of course, each one is an individual. My ex bf was great at sex, and creative, open minded. It was one of his "things," sex. But he was also a Don Juan narcissist, and they are usually great at sex.

I am pretty sure my dad stopped giving my mom sex in their mid 40s. He only cares about his own creature comforts, so once he had a libido drop, it was just over. Others' needs just go over his head. Does not compute.

Again, Hubby sounds like a lost cause, pretty much. I do wonder what would happen if you refused to give him his boring morning sex though. If he became uncomfortable enough with lack of sex, maybe he'd be forced to listen to you, just a bit. Altho I do suspect he is having cybersex on his computer. Have you asked him if he is?
 
He's completely open with me about what he does online, and will even show me his Facebook, instant messenger, etc. if I ask. He watches porn on his computer. He doesn't cyber; he says it does nothing for him because he needs physical touch to get aroused and get off. (He doesn't lie; that's another Aspie trait. He'll be brutal before he'll be dishonest. So I know he's telling me the truth about the cyber thing.)

Routine and isolation, check. I'm with him on the craving routine thing to some extent, but I used to teach special education, and also did some substitute teaching. I *prefer* routine, but due to those jobs, I had to learn flexibility, so I'm better able to break routine than Hubby (or Country, for that matter). I don't like breaking routine, but I go along with it when necessary.

I just had a long talk with him, though. I told him that sometimes I like having sex with him in the mornings before he goes to work, but that sometimes I would rather just have physical closeness with him at that time and have sex at another time. His "first thing in the morning", as I said, is a few hours into my day, and my contribution to the problem is that if I go in to wake him or cuddle with him before he gets up, I usually have half a dozen other things on my mind. It isn't a good time for sex for me; I have a hard time keeping my mind on sex at the best of times, and when I have other things clamoring for my mental attention, that's where my brain goes.

I reminded Hubby that we've talked before about varying time of day, positions, and possibly even location. (Last summer, we fucked on one of the work boats in a secluded area of the harbor, and both agreed it was something we wanted to repeat... but it hasn't been repeated.) I also reminded him of the list we used to have of things we were curious about/interested in that both were willing to try.

I looked for that list this morning but couldn't find it, so I asked him if we could make another. He seemed pretty excited about that idea. I also told him very clearly that if we do another list, if he isn't okay with something he needs to say "I'm not okay with that, but it's an okay thing in general" or something along those lines; and if he says he *is* okay with something, he needs to follow through to actually doing it. He promised that he will, and said that either tomorrow or Monday (his days off), he'll sit down with me to make that list. He also promised me another boat ride--double meaning intended--for my birthday at the end of the month. And he said he would try to come home earlier from work when he can so we can have sex then, or to be more available on his days off.

So that's a start, I think. Whether it will last is another question, but I also reminded him that if he wants me to be happy the way he says he does, that means he needs to work *with* me to make sure we're both happy, and sometimes it means he needs to push his comfort zones.

Meanwhile, when I saw S2 last night I talked to him about some of this as well. I mentioned that I'd created this thread and some of the responses I've gotten as a springboard, because it's easier for me to talk about posting about sex than it is to talk about sex, if that makes sense. I also offered to show him the thread so he could see what my issues are, but he refused; he won't come onto this forum at all because he wants it to be a place where I feel free to post whatever I want to post without having to worry about his reactions.

But I did mention a couple of things we've talked about in the past that we haven't done because of lack of time. I also mentioned--I can't remember now who suggested it. The index card thing. I asked him if some other time (we didn't have time last night), we could write things on index cards that we're curious about and would be willing to try, and then from time to time pull out one of the cards and do what's on it. He immediately agreed, partly because he thinks it could be exciting since we're both likely to forget what's on at least some of the cards, and partly because he understands that doing it that way would make it easier on me than talking about things we'd like to try.

I brought up the lack of time for sex with him. Weeknights are still going to be pretty much out of the question as far as new experiences, but he agreed that even 20 minutes is long enough to try a different position, or someplace in his apartment other than his bed, or whatever. And he said that next month, when we're able to see each other on weekends again, he's willing to commit to making extra time for trying new things. He also said he has a few ideas, based on past discussions, for things he'd like to do on the camping trips we've planned for later this summer.

Both guys, during the respective conversations, apologized for not helping to make it easier for me to talk to them about this, and both thanked me for hanging in there and trying to talk to them. And S2 reminded me that the fact that I'm able and willing to keep trying to have these discussions despite all the factors in my past that contribute to the difficulties, is one of the things he finds most awesome about me, which felt pretty good.
 
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Sex is kind of a dirty word in my house. We very rarely talk about it. I've been married for 17 years now. I was very young. We waited until marriage for 3 years like good "Christian" people. Then I went on my honeymoon expecting the floodgates to open. We had sex about 3 times in a week. And from that point forward it was roughly once a month or so. Sex is just confusing to me. It seems like if you love someone you would want to do it with them all the time. I could never in a million years imagine saying no to her if she asks for sex. But I rarely get a yes, and am constantly rejected. As she has hit her sexual peek it has turned into 2 or 3 times a month. But not near enough for me. And most of the time it's her lay maying down and waiting for me to do all the things that drive her crazy. And me sitting around trying to come up with new and interesting ways to pleasure her. There is little I see from her trying to do the same for me.

Just yesterday I called her a selfish lover in the bedroom. Is that too harsh? Is it bad to say a wife consistently rejecting you for sex is being selfish? To me it feels like she is only interested in sex if she happens to be in the mood, and if she isn't, then too bad for you. And I know I'm not satisfying you in the bedroom, but I never want you to satisfy yourself or seek satisfaction from anyone else. To me it seems like a form of torture. But maybe I'm being crazy?
 
I don't think you're being crazy, but I think--solely based on what you've said, since I don't know anything more about your situation than that-- that calling her selfish may have been a bit harsh, and almost certainly closed a door between the two of you as far as trying to make things work better.

You say you were "good Christians" and waited until marriage. I read something earlier this week, can't remember where now, about a woman who did that too...and when she finally had sex with her husband, she could not reconcile sex suddenly being "allowed" with everything she'd been taught growing up. Having the ring on the finger and the ink on the license didn't magically make sex "okay" for her, with the result that she felt dirty and sick whenever her husband touched her, even though she loved him and wanted to make him happy. She ended up getting counseling to help her overcome having been conditioned to believe sex was a bad thing, because that conditioning ran far deeper than "It's okay now because you're married."

Your wife might feel the same. If she was brought up in a household where sex was only discussed in terms of "You don't do this until after marriage, and then you do it because it's your duty as a Christian wife"... of course she isn't going to want it all the time. Or often. Or maybe at all. And, as I was (and still sometimes am), she might be afraid that taking the initiative or touching you instead of just waiting for you to touch her, would make her a "slut" (in a bad way) or dirty or evil or something.

And while I can completely understand your frustration, being angry and saying things like "You're selfish" to her isn't going to help her overcome how she feels about sex in general. It's only going to make things worse; she's either going to shut down and have sex with you less frequently, or she's going to have it with you more frequently but be miserable.

If you've been married for 17 years and still don't have an open line of communication about sex, there's a serious problem somewhere. I would strongly recommend marital counseling, with a professional counselor or at least with the leader of your church if you and/or your wife aren't comfortable going to a counselor.
 
I'm no longer the Christian I once was. I would and have and have in the past requested a secular counselor. But the last one we had was very poly unfriendly and very opinionated that any relationships, even friendships with the opposite sex are dangerous for you marriage. So eventually I stopped going. Perhaps it's time to start again. I can tend to be brutally honest at times. And I agree that her sexual problems go much deeper. Many insecurities and other issues. She is not a selfish person in general. But as with any other aspect of relationships, insecurities and fears and jealousy can cause us to be selfish. And I realize that it's not always easy to control all that. But none the less, it feels selfish from my perspective. And despite what causes it, they are selfish acts in my mind. I'm thinking this was painful for her to hear and maybe there would have been a less painful way to express it.
 
Just yesterday I called her a selfish lover in the bedroom. Is that too harsh?

Yes. I think so.

I can tend to be brutally honest at times

You are not willing or not able to be honest without the brutal? :confused:

Does this habit of yours contribute to her not wanting to engage in deep conversation with you because she expects verbal brutality?

You seem to want more deep conversation. She has to change some stuff on her side -- are you willing to change this on yours?

I'm thinking this was painful for her to hear and maybe there would have been a less painful way to express it.

I am glad you see that. Because you are not "entitled" to sex with her. It is her body to decide to share or not.

But none the less, it feels selfish from my perspective. And despite what causes it, they are selfish acts in my mind.

I note you express it that way several times. Like "She's being selfish" rather than "I feel frustrated/disappointed because I would like sex more often than she does."

Since you mention communication issues -- maybe that's an area to look into. How you talk and express your feelings. Maybe use more "I" statements and less "you" statements so you own your stuff verbally in conversation.

You guys have different libido. That is a problem, esp if talking about it is difficult.

She wants sex 2-3 times a month. You want it more often than that. That is fair to say. Because that is what it IS. And it leaves evaluation words like "selfish" out of it.

You would like more sex.

  • You could ask if she's willing to talk about that and both work on developing better communication skills. Maybe look into "non-violent communication" by Marshall Rosenberg.
  • You could ask if she's willing to see a doc if she's having some kind problem there (ex: meds affecting libido, hormones off, something like that)
  • You could ask of she's willing to see a counselor or sex therapist with you if she's having some kind problem there (ex: depression, relational, core belief, insecurities, or sex skills problem.)
  • If she's fine and that's just her preference for how often she wants sex, and your current marriage agreements are do not allow you to meet your needs with others? You could ask she's willing to renegotiate boundaries so you can have another sex partner.
  • You could choose to disband the marriage.
Those are the options I see.

Galagirl
 
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Great job talking to your guys, KC! I hope the talks lead to fruitful actions!
 
I agree absolutely with almost every sentiment Galagirl and I think it's great advice. Definitely will help me when I talk to her more tonight. By brutal honesty I typically mean saying things like, "I fantasize about being with other women" or "I would prefer an open relationship". In my opinion these feelings are not abnormal for many people, but most wouldn't dare be that honest with their spouse. My communication skills are a work in progress though.

I definitely agree that it's her body and she can choose to do with it as she wishes. She never has to have sex with me. She never has to pleasure me during sex. She doesn't have to do anything. I also don't have to ever communicate with her. I don't have to let her vent to me. I don't have to help with the kids. I don't have to do anything really. It's my body, my mind. But I'd be willing to bet that if I didn't ever listen to her because I just wasn't in the mood to listen to her most of the time, some people might call that selfish. Even if I had a bad past that caused me not to want to listen to her most times or had a real disability like ADD (which is actually true). I'm not sure many women would say, "awe, poor guy. He can do want he wants with his ears. Stop pressuring him".

I've seen many times when she was too "tired" for sex but will sit up and lecture me for 2 hours before she goes to bed. And if I say, "I'm too tired to listen right now" that's never an acceptable answer. Cause how selfish would I be to deny her need to get something off her chest before she goes to bed that night. And unless I am absolutely exhausted, she would be correct in saying that I am selfish in that moment.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too rationally though? I tend to do that sometimes.
 
Thanks, Magdlyn, and thanks again for your advice. Same to everyone else; I appreciate all of it! And I'll keep this thread updated.

Needing, as GalaGirl said, try saying something like "I feel hurt and frustrated when you don't have sex with me. I would like to have sex with you more often." Since your wife uses tiredness as an excuse--I'm sure a valid one, if she's taking care of the house and kids!--you might add, "I notice you're often tired when I try to have sex with you. Is there a time of day that would be better?"

And... sex uses a lot more energy than talking. Sex is a primarily physical activity. Talking is primarily mental. Being too tired for sex doesn't have to mean being too tired for anything at all. It might just mean being too tired to strip naked, lie down, and have someone banging something into you.

Reading your posts, I'm starting to see some similarities in your communication style and phrasing with the way Hubby used to until I told him to knock it off. I need to mull this over a bit, but I might have more useful advice for you later on.

It sounds like both you and your wife are ignoring/denying/invalidating each other's needs and wants. And it sounds like that's been going on for the entire marriage, which is a VERY long time to live that way. It's no surprise you're frustrated, but if you've been talking to your wife like that all along, it's no surprise she doesn't want you having sex with her either. Even if she loves you, it's pretty hard to want to be naked and vulnerable with someone who calls you selfish and blames you for all the problems in the marriage.
 
You obviously haven't heard my wife "talk"! ;-) It's a physical sport.

But, yes, communication has been seriously lacking for a long long time. I think it doesn't help that we got married to young and had no idea what we were doing. I didn't even have a checking account until we got married. That and me being a laid back guy who avoids confrontation at all costs and her being raised by a woman who had to be treated like a Queen at all times and let everybody in the house know it when she was unhappy. Still does, and is on her 4th miserable marriage where I'm pretty sure the guy would leave her if he wasn't such a good loyal guy. I mean this is a woman who will yell at him on Christmas morning for getting her a present she doesn't like. It must be hard to grow up with that as an example and have good calm communication skills.
 
I don't have to help with the kids.

I think you do have to help if you are co-responsible for parenting these children. Short changing the kids because your wife is being annoying is not right.

But I'd be willing to bet that if I didn't ever listen to her because I just wasn't in the mood to listen to her most of the time, some people might call that selfish.

Why all this focus on what other people might call things or not call things? Rather than than focusing on what YOU need in your relationships to feel happy and healthy? :confused:

I've seen many times when she was too "tired" for sex but will sit up and lecture me for 2 hours before she goes to bed.

How come that time? You guys don't have a regular time to talk? And how come that long? You guys don't table things for the next time?

And if I say, "I'm too tired to listen right now" that's never an acceptable answer.

So you are up for sex. And she's not up for sex. Ok, no sex. Because both are not willing.

She is up for long lectures. You are not up for long lectures. Ok. So... no lecturing you because you are not willing. You do not have to be there. If you are tired? She doesn't have to accept your tiredness. YOU do.

You could go take care of it on your own. You can say "I am tired. I am not able to provide good listening for you right now. Excuse me. I am going to sleep. We can talk more in the morning." And then leave the room and go sleep elsewhere. Be firmer about your personal boundaries.

YOU can choose not to stay there listening to a 2 hour lecture. Your ears belong to you.

She can choose to continue and stay up lecturing to the wall if she wants. She can call a friend or write in a journal. She can call for a counseling appointment. She could meet her need on her own.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too rationally though? I tend to do that sometimes.

I think you might be connecting things that do not have to connect. Rather than taking each problem separately. So far I see

  • There's a sex libido problem here
  • There's a "she rants for hours at me at night problem when I need to sleep." problem.
  • There's a "she does not respect my limit when I say NO." problem.
  • There's a "Rather follow through on my NO by leaving the room. I stay there listening to her spew" problem.

Each one could be addressed separately from the others.

I wonder if you guts are in a tit-for-tat bad habit in communication? Like blame game circles?

  • You did this.
  • Well, you did that!
  • Well, you didn't do this!
  • Well, you didn't do that!

Just not productive communication.

I also think you could ask mods to split this off into a separate thread of its own. You have a lot going on and you may get more responses from others if it is not "buried" within this thread.

Galagirl
 
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I see what you're saying. It's probably less tit for tat than me overthinking things. I tend to analyze things to death until I have more clarity on them. Then I need to learn to do what you're talking about and just focus on the root causes of the problem. I think we have thoroughly talked this one out for now. Thanks for putting up with some of my ignorance. It helps to just be able to say what I'm thinking even if I'm being an idiot. :) I'll probably have lots of questions tomorrow. I'll start a new thread for that.
 
I will look forward to your thread. I am glad talking some helps.

It helps to just be able to say what I'm thinking even if I'm being an idiot. :)

I don't think you are an idiot. I think you could not down talk to or about yourself.

I think you have been struggling with very long term frustrations and need to air out pent up stuff for a while before you can move on to problem solving in a better frame of mind.

Galagirl
 
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I've seen many times when she was too "tired" for sex but will sit up and lecture me for 2 hours before she goes to bed. And if I say, "I'm too tired to listen right now" that's never an acceptable answer. Cause how selfish would I be to deny her need to get something off her chest before she goes to bed that night. And unless I am absolutely exhausted, she would be correct in saying that I am selfish in that moment.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too rationally though? I tend to do that sometimes.
I think what she means is that her libido is not high enough to just do it when she is tired or frustrated With you.

It Depends, if she has something vital to say for two hours every night it is a bit too much and you are not selfish for wanting to scedule it to another time, if it is on that one occation that is something else.
 
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