What is this "lifestyle" you mention?

is because it is seen as a choice. Monogamy is seen as the norm. In mainstream society, we are still at a point where nothing else is seen as "normal" or "Acceptable." Being gay, I hear the same stuff about being LGBTQ.

It implies choice, though, which I find to be offensive. Being neither gay nor poly is a "lifestyle choice" for me. Both are natural orientations, and I want them to be respected as such.

I don't know that they will be in my lifetime, but every time I am confronted with this description on EITHER issue, I make sure the person or people I am talking to understand that it is in no way a choice at all. It is as much a part of who I am as my eye color.

Further, I refuse to accept that people who use this community to heal existing relationships who are simply somehow non monogamous to "save" a marriage or relationship as truly poly. They perpetuate the idea that we are just a bunch of sex addicts with commitment issues, when nothing could be further from the truth. I will never again be band aid on problems in an existing marriage or relationship with which I had nothing to do.

And this is interesting to me. Because again, I would say that for someone who is gay but it isn't that big a deal, or monogamous, but it's not that big a deal...it's just part of their normal...they are not necessarily making a "lifestyle" of it. But I know drag queens (yes, I'm inspired by your signature) and for that matter drag kings, who absolutely do make a lifestyle of their art, whether they are gay or not.

Now if polyamory is such an absolute part of your identity that it is as immutable as being gay or straight (although I do think it's valid for a person to consciously move along some spectrum during their lifetime, and I do think that bisexuality is valid)...then that in and of itself is not a lifestyle, nor much of a choice.

Personally, I prefer to have choice. I don't want anyone to accommodate me because I was born this way or can't help it. I can choose, and I want any choice I might choose to make, to be considered valid and me free to choose it. I chose polyamory for a year. It was pretty great. But by the end of that year, I was only really satisfied with one of my four relationships, and was feeling my time stretched too thin by trying to keep up with them all.

It was a lifestyle choice, and it was not really working out for me.

Maybe one day when my life and obligations are different, it might.

For what it's worth, my monogamous marriage didn't work out either. But that isn't because I am just so damn poly by nature that my needs cannot be met by less than several lovers. It's because my husband was insane.

So. Now. For now. And for however long it works. I'm gonna do mono. It is a lifestyle choice that I have chosen. And I don't see why the fact that it WAS a choice freely made, makes it more or less valid.

And I also think that being gay could be:
a choice
genetics
hormones
brain chemistry
a reaction to abuse or trauma
just a normal variation on nature
none of the above
any or a combination of the above

...and be as valid regardless. You talk about being gay as all a matter of "born that way" and you get nutjobs talking about curing your gay genes. You talk about it being a choice and they say it's a sin or you can "pray it away" or counsel to fix it like a mental illness. How about it doesn't fucking matter, and talking about fixing something is all sorts of dumb if it's not broken to begin with. ??
 
I've used "lovestyle" in the past, but I quit using it because I heard that some are offended by it. And, because it's not that important to me. I don't need it.

More recently, I've been using "relationship model" instead. Or other terms depending on the conversation.
 
And this is interesting to me. Because again, I would say that for someone who is gay but it isn't that big a deal, or monogamous, but it's not that big a deal...it's just part of their normal...they are not necessarily making a "lifestyle" of it. But I know drag queens (yes, I'm inspired by your signature) and for that matter drag kings, who absolutely do make a lifestyle of their art, whether they are gay or not.

Now if polyamory is such an absolute part of your identity that it is as immutable as being gay or straight (although I do think it's valid for a person to consciously move along some spectrum during their lifetime, and I do think that bisexuality is valid)...then that in and of itself is not a lifestyle, nor much of a choice.

Personally, I prefer to have choice. I don't want anyone to accommodate me because I was born this way or can't help it. I can choose, and I want any choice I might choose to make, to be considered valid and me free to choose it. I chose polyamory for a year. It was pretty great. But by the end of that year, I was only really satisfied with one of my four relationships, and was feeling my time stretched too thin by trying to keep up with them all.

It was a lifestyle choice, and it was not really working out for me.

Maybe one day when my life and obligations are different, it might.

For what it's worth, my monogamous marriage didn't work out either. But that isn't because I am just so damn poly by nature that my needs cannot be met by less than several lovers. It's because my husband was insane.

So. Now. For now. And for however long it works. I'm gonna do mono. It is a lifestyle choice that I have chosen. And I don't see why the fact that it WAS a choice freely made, makes it more or less valid.

And I also think that being gay could be:
a choice
genetics
hormones
brain chemistry
a reaction to abuse or trauma
just a normal variation on nature
none of the above
any or a combination of the above

...and be as valid regardless. You talk about being gay as all a matter of "born that way" and you get nutjobs talking about curing your gay genes. You talk about it being a choice and they say it's a sin or you can "pray it away" or counsel to fix it like a mental illness. How about it doesn't fucking matter, and talking about fixing something is all sorts of dumb if it's not broken to begin with. ??

That's the thing - I DO equate being poly with the same immutable charateristic that had me sent to an ex gay conversion camp when I was a 12 year old child because my Southern Baptist parents couldn't accept my being gay. To me, it's a very similar kind of oppression, not some kind of "lifestyle choice."

I guess I just fee very strongly here because of what was done to me. I won't get into it here, but let's just say there's a very good reason that some states are outlawing such so-called "therapy."
 
I must say Spork...

That, considering all I have been through, that YES BEING BORN THIS WAY FUCKING MATTERS. i am offended that you are straight-splaining the hardships of gay life to me. God, this is why, while I value straight allies, some of you are just miserable. I honestly have this reason for hanging with more LGBTQ folks than straight people. You think you know EVERYTHING, when, in actuality, you know nothing of our struggle. Calling something so fundamental to our being a choice is an insult, it is harmful, and you know not of what you speak. Go away, with "friends" like you, we do not need enemies.
 
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All I Can Say IS...

That I thought this was an LGBTQ - friendly site. I See it is not. It allows for conspiracy theories about being gay being some kind of "choice" that can be "cured" to be circulated unchallenged, despite the fact that every major health organization in the world says that such theories are not only untrue, but also very dangerous.

But they are allowed to be circulated here, supposedly on an open-minded site unchalleged. Such a shame, really. Just where you think you would be free from oppression, it hits you full on, unchallenged.

Just, please, mods, don't act like your site here at polyamory.com is friendly to LGBTQ people, for it clearly is not.
 
That, considering all I have been through, that YES BEING BORN THIS WAY FUCKING MATTERS. i am offended that you are straight-splaining the hardships of gay life to me. God, this is why, while I value straight allies, some of you are just miserable. I honestly have this reason for hanging with more LGBTQ folks than straight people. You think you know EVERYTHING, when, in actuality, you know nothing of our struggle. Calling something so fundamental to our being a choice is an insult, it is harmful, and you know not of what you speak. Go away, with "friends" like you, we do not need enemies.

That I thought this was an LGBTQ - friendly site. I See it is not. It allows for conspiracy theories about being gay being some kind of "choice" that can be "cured" to be circulated unchallenged, despite the fact that every major health organization in the world says that such theories are not only untrue, but also very dangerous.

But they are allowed to be circulated here, supposedly on an open-minded site unchalleged. Such a shame, really. Just where you think you would be free from oppression, it hits you full on, unchallenged.

Just, please, mods, don't act like your site here at polyamory.com is friendly to LGBTQ people, for it clearly is not.

Purple Sun, I took offense at Spork's words as well. She doesn't speak for the community. I didn't read your second post through yet, but I wanted to get that in there quick! I reported this post to the moderators.

Also, it is off topic for the "lifestyle term" conversation as well, IMO.
 
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Moderator note:

This has been a surprisingly long-running thread, which has allowed discussion of one of those "I didn't know it bothered you" topics we all stumble across from time to time. As "the lifestyle" has kept coming up in conversation over the years I believe that keeping this as an active discussion thread for the next time has value. It was closed today because it was getting acrimonious and looked like it was going downhill fast, which doesn’t help anyone.

Hopefully by now everyone has had time to take a deep breath and step back. I ask that you all take what each other have to say in the spirit in which it was intended, and that you read a post in its entirety before condemning the person who posted it. If that is not possible this thread will be closed permanently.
 
Purple Sun, I took offense at Spork's words as well. She doesn't speak for the community. I didn't read your second post through yet, but I wanted to get that in there quick! I reported this post to the moderators.

Also, it is off topic for the "lifestyle term" conversation as well, IMO.

Thanks, Magdlyn. I am hoping that this sort of thing isn't allowed here anymore. It truly is a harmful path to go down.
 
Thanks, Magdlyn. I am hoping that this sort of thing isn't allowed here anymore. It truly is a harmful path to go down.

No problem, PurpleSun. Being bi and poly sure isn't a choice for me! Trying to live hetero and mono for 30 years was a choice, and a bad one, and while I don't regret it, per se, I do feel I wasted a lot of good years... trying to live the mono lifestyle lol

Notice the brilliant way I brought my post on topic.:p

Maybe someone who wants to can start a thread in Fireside on why they think being gay or bi and/or poly is a choice and not something one is born to do. I think it's tacky to try and say being queer and/or poly is a choice for everyone just because it seems like a mere option to some. And why that (rather questionable and insulting) idea has some bearing on why it's OK to call polyamory a "lifestyle." I am personally bored with the whole lifestyle question, myself.
 
No problem, PurpleSun. Being bi and poly sure isn't a choice for me! Trying to live hetero and mono for 30 years was a choice, and a bad one, and while I don't regret it, per se, I do feel I wasted a lot of good years... trying to live the mono lifestyle lol

Notice the brilliant way I brought my post on topic.:p

Maybe someone who wants to can start a thread in Fireside on why they think being gay or bi and/or poly is a choice and not something one is born to do. I think it's tacky to try and say being queer and/or poly is a choice for everyone just because it seems like a mere option to some. And why that (rather questionable and insulting) idea has some bearing on why it's OK to call polyamory a "lifestyle." I am personally bored with the whole lifestyle question, myself.

I'm bored with the lifestyle question, too, and honestly just wish the idea would be squashed. It HAS been squashed with regards to being LGBTQ, except in Religious Right circles who sincerely believe that being queer is a sin. However, those beliefs have been linked to countless suicides, so the idea that something like that should be given credibility at all is a dangerous one.

And yeah, Fireside would be a good place to go here.
 
I don't like the term 'lifestyle' or 'lifestyle choice' either. But then, my experience with it is mostly people using it to marginalize or invalidate lgbtq people. Tenk's post really resonates with me. As for using it in conjunction with poly, I do think there are people who choose poly as a relationship style (those people can be happy, in the right circumstances, loving more than one person or loving only one) and there are people for whom it's not so much a choice...they are by nature, not designed for monogamy. My bf Blue falls in the latter category, I fall in the former. Monogamy doesn't feel like a prison to me. For Blue, it does. Just differences in our wiring.

ETA: And, that's why I don't like the terms lifestyle, The Lifestyle, or lifestyle choice. Use of those terms implies that what may be a choice for me, is also a choice for you. And I think that's a dangerous assumption. I have a family member who is vegan and a friend who is vegan. The friend chose to go vegan because of his objection to the food industry's cruel treatment of animals...he also does not use leather products. OTOH, my family member went vegan because of food allergies and health issues. It really wasn't a choice a for her.
 
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That I thought this was an LGBTQ - friendly site. I See it is not. It allows for conspiracy theories about being gay being some kind of "choice" that can be "cured"

Purple Sun, you misinterpret Spork's meaning. Spork is fond of exposition, exploration and lengthy discussion so you'll find that far from having a theory on "gay," she will welcome further discussion on this topic. She listed "choice" as one of many possible origins and while that might irk you as even making the list, she included it as a possibility, adding that nobody really knows for sure. True, most of us now recognize that bisexualiy, homosexuality and heterosexuality all appear in childhood and that "choice" is not even necessary to debate any longer. Spork mentions as much in her post. I encourage you to re-read her last few posts in their entirety. Indeed, all of her posts in this forum will reveal that she is extraordinarily thoughtful, open minded and willing to discuss/clarify. Truly, you've read into her posts a meaning that was not intended.

And I also think that being gay could be:
a choice
genetics
hormones
brain chemistry
a reaction to abuse or trauma
just a normal variation on nature
none of the above
any or a combination of the above

...How about it doesn't fucking matter, and talking about fixing something is all sorts of dumb if it's not broken to begin with. ??
 
i am offended that you are straight-splaining the hardships of gay life to me. God, this is why, while I value straight allies, some of you are just miserable. I honestly have this reason for hanging with more LGBTQ folks than straight people. You think you know EVERYTHING, when, in actuality, you know nothing of our struggle.

Also, never assume in this forum that you know who is "straight" and who is any shade of LGBTQ simply by looking at them or their current signatures. You're doing the very thing that you rail against. Many of us live very unconventional intimate lives but don't add it to our signatures and avatars. Be careful with your assumptions.
 
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I just want to apologize as I was away for a while and did not see the hurt and the responses.

Purple Sun I am SO SORRY that what was done to you, was done to you.

And it goes right to the heart and soul of something I was trying (badly? I am sorry.) to say. That NO MATTER what the "reason" (if there is one, and it shouldn't matter) is behind why anyone is how they are, it is valid.

You're not broken. You don't need fixed.

My point is that I'm not, either.

And I am not, by the way, straight. I often love men, but I also sometimes love women. Do you look down on me for it? For me, there is a large element of choice, and I demand the freedom to exercise it. I'm evolving, I'm a work in progress, and I expect to be until the day I die. A fluid and fluctuating chameleon creature forever learning who she is and what she loves. Should I not have that freedom? Must I choose a side and stand there for life, because it's insulting to those who must defend their own identity (which they were born with and did not choose)...?

I don't think so. I think that there is room in the world for you, and for me. For your happiness and love and life and nature and freedoms and choices, and for mine. One doesn't have to be invalid, for the other to be valid.

And I do not like squashing ideas. But I want to hear yours just as much as I want to speak mine.

Again. I am very sorry for what was done to you, attempts at "conversion" are wrong, and in fact that's part of the point I was trying to make--that to take care that we never allow those who seek "fixes" for things that are not broken about us, to poison the well when we talk about what different things mean to different people.

Again. Sincere apologies for coming off in a way I did not intend. I write these stupid long wall-of-text posts and my ideas get all mucky and lost...very sorry about that.
 
I never knew that so many people get creeped out by such a simple word. Reading the discursus is like watching a Saturday Night Live skit: hanging on for a punchline (or at least a commercial break). :)

Let's draw a parallel to a term that's bandied about, yet is somewhere between meaningless & wrong. That would be community -- online community, kink community, gay community, poly community...

For instance, this site is NOT a community. It is private property... visitors have only the rights granted them by the property owners (& their designates)... those rights may be changed or revoked at whim. Anyone who's ever actually read a TOS would know all that.

As for "choice," I have the longstanding notion that I am fundamentally nonmonogamous... & I certainly never went out of my way to "learn to be poly" or any such nonsense... but it is most certainly my choice whether to act in a polyamorous manner.
 
I grieve for anyone who was forced into any sort of 'conversion' therapy. They are nothing but abuse disguised as therapy. I am so glad states are moving to outlaw them.

The term 'lifestyle' has become so toxic because it was deployed by right wing politicians to denigrate and demean people working towards equality for LBGTQ folks.

However some groups use 'lifestyle' as a way to indicate they participate in a particular community, that they belong with that group. Swingers will often say they are in the 'lifestyle' as a shorthand to indicate that they swing. Spankos (people who enjoy getting or receiving spanking) often think of themselves as distinct from kink and will use lifestyle to indicate their alignment. Both are separate and distinct subcultures with their own norms, lingo and so on. I think one difference between one use of the word lifestyle that is offensive and one that is not is if a particular group is trying to change society. Swingers generally are not. As long as their clubs and groups are left alone, they generally don't work to changing society. Spankos - from my very limited experience with those groups - seem also not so interested in changing society but rather carving out space for their activities. Lifestyle applied and used by them does not feel demeaning. (Also people outside these groups tend not to use the term about these groups - it's mostly an internal signal among group members.)

But people in groups that do want society to change, sometimes in very dramatic and important ways, really hate 'lifestyle' applied to them because it feels - and is sometimes meant by the person applying that term to others - to be demeaning. LBGTQ and poly groups are both communities that have sought major changes in society. This is my theory of why 'lifestyle' is sometimes horribly offensive and sometimes not a big deal.

(Some kinksters use lifestyle at times and others do not. There is no apparent group consistency that I've noticed. I wonder if that is because some kinksters are fine with the way things are and others really want a more open, accepting, sex and kink-positive world.)

I find it very frustrating that proposing that sexuality, and sexual orientation, may not be set in stone from birth is often perceived to be anti-LBGTQ. I understand the triggering reaction to the word 'choice'. Again a word deliberating chosen by right-wingers to denigrate and demean LBGTQ people. I understand that many people experience their sexuality as a given, set very early in their life. However, nature vs. nurture is always a false and misleading dichotomy. Nothing in human society - or nature, I would argue - is that simple. I refuse to be trapped by how this false dichotomy. I refuse to be limited to the terms assholes have used to inhibit or destroy my rights. It's time to ditch the tired and long term unsustainable argument of 'I'm born this way and I can't help it' so I deserve rights. We all deserve rights - because we exist. Period.

It does not matter why I am not straight. I just am. As a human, I have rights that need to be respected and honored. And I expect to honor the rights of others. I experience my sexuality, and my sexual orientation, as fluid. It's changed over time. There is nothing wrong with me. I'm not broken just as someone whose sexuality stays the same throughout life, is not broken. My experiences do not invalidate anyone's lives or experience. My reality does not make your reality any less real or true for you. I exist and my existence is not anti-LBGTQ. Quite the opposite.
 
It's OK to be queer: perhaps sometimes you're drawn to men, sometimes you're drawn to women. Sometimes you're drawn to someone who is genderqueer, gender non-conforming or gender-fluid. Sometimes you thought you were straight your whole life and suddenly you find yourself drawn to a specific person of the same sex romantically, emotionally, or just sexually.

Every time, it's not really a "choice," but something you're drawn to, like a thirsty woman to water. It just happens, you're not really choosing it. You can choose to act on it, or not. You have freedom to choose your behavior at any time.

You can feel polyamorous, or polysexual, but choose not to act on it. You can go on living mono if you feel that is best. You can cheat. You can open your relationship, or leave it, to pursue ethical non-monogamy.

It's becoming aware of, and accepting of, these things you're drawn to that seem odd to yourself, that matters. Many people may be drawn to something they think is odd, and then they think it's bad, because (mainstream) society tells them it is. That's when it becomes a problem. That's when the self-torture begins.
 
It's OK to be queer: perhaps sometimes you're drawn to men, sometimes you're drawn to women. Sometimes you're drawn to someone who is genderqueer, gender non-conforming or gender-fluid. Sometimes you thought you were straight your whole life and suddenly you find yourself drawn to a specific person of the same sex romantically, emotionally, or just sexually.

Every time, it's not really a "choice," but something you're drawn to, like a thirsty woman to water. It just happens, you're not really choosing it. You can choose to act on it, or not. You have freedom to choose your behavior at any time.

You can feel polyamorous, or polysexual, but choose not to act on it. You can go on living mono if you feel that is best. You can cheat. You can open your relationship, or leave it, to pursue ethical non-monogamy.

It's becoming aware of, and accepting of, these things you're drawn to that seem odd to yourself, that matters. Many people may be drawn to something they think is odd, and then they think it's bad, because (mainstream) society tells them it is. That's when it becomes a problem. That's when the self-torture begins.

I think my dilemma was that poly seems so...GOOD...to me. Like a great way to live. Open to loving many. Getting to experience all sorts of potential connections. The freedom of it. And then I had the people in my life, all blinkin' FOUR of em...and they are all beautiful, smart, sexy, fantastic people. I don't want to disappoint any of them, let any of them down, hurt any feelings or break any hearts. But it was too much. I was neglecting my kids, my art, and a bunch of other things. And still felt that I was only honoring ONE partner with my full and open heart...no hesitation, no difficulty, no "did they mean this when they said that?"...it was just easy and good.

And so despite me thinking, really really thinking, that poly is "right" my heart was drawn to being mono again. At least for the now. The way things stand today. And it was a choice I made, out of a place of confusion, out of many factors, that I had to sort through and figure out.

Magdlyn, to speak to precisely what you've said here, I am drawn to ALL THE THINGS, and NOTHING is really odd to me. But I can't do all of them at once, so all that's left is choice. Who do I listen to, when my vajayjay says, "GIMME" and my gut says "BAD IDEA" and my brain says "INTERESTING" but my heart says, in a small small voice, "no. i just want to belong to him. Please."

I think that there are times...I guess, if I say that poly is, for ME, a lifestyle choice, one could also say that a rich person is "accustomed to a certain lifestyle" (come on, I know we've heard that, spoken in some revoltingly posh intonation...) well, I would perhaps choose that lifestyle too if I could, but some things just might not be practical or possible right now in my life.

Maybe one day that will be different. Who knows what might happen?

Right now my "lifestyle" is being a single Mom, first of all. In just a few years my kids will be grown. I'll be, for the first time, an adult, child-free, maybe single, free to do whatever I WANT with my life's direction, maybe I will...that might be a very different lifestyle than what I have now.

And I have also had experiences where I was not initially attracted, or drawn, to someone...but I decided to sit and look at them, really look at them, and try to see within, try to imagine intimacy with them, instead of passing over because they weren't my "type" on the surface, I made the choice to give them a chance to show me what was UNDER the surface.

And some of the best experiences I've ever had, were with people like that. Zen is one of them. I love him from the inside out. Now I think he's one of the most beautiful creatures in the world...but when I first laid eyes on him, he was...well...rather ordinary.

The Worm King actually put me off, like I was trying to think of excuses to be away from him...until he dug his fingers into my arm and his teeth into my shoulder. Even then a warning voice in my head was demanding to know what in the hell I was doing as I drove to his address the evening of our very first date! I didn't actually find him attractive until I was engaged in the act of sex with him, no joke! And yet. He was good...really good...and I learned a lot from even the negative parts of that interaction. So. I made a strange choice, and sometimes, I just don't know why. Sheer recklessness in that moment maybe?

Anyways, attraction is a funny business and so is life. I can only speak to my OWN life experiences, and I hardly pretend to be any kind of normal. Take away my conscious choices and I am left absolutely adrift in a world of infinite possibility. I would completely lose myself in it. And I don't seem to be very good at long term acceptance of solid identity labels. I like change too much. So for me...maybe lifestyle is all I've got left to give me any kind of structure or identity, at all.
 
We tend to side with the mindset of Hades or Black Unicorn. Everything else is double speak. Just dancing around words and twisting them.
WE TRULY believe that this is a lifestyle or subculture if you wish because it is not the norm that society embraces or believes to be natural. Loving more than one person and sometimes more than one gender is so against the Victorian principals. We embrace these ideals yet we may have a different way of living them than the next poly person.
In the book "More Than Two" the garden concept is used. A garden will always need soil, air, water, light, and fertility, yet the seeds that are planted will determine what the garden will look like. It may be flowers or it may be vegetables or a combination. Still it is a garden. You can dance around the term "Lifestyle" because everybody does it different yet at the end of the day it is still a "LIfestyle"
 
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