Whimsey's wonderings and wanderings

whimsey

New member
Alrighty,

I'm fairly new here and posted on the New to Polyamory page a couple of days ago. I've felt such support and understanding, but thought maybe starting a blog type thread for myself might be easiest...that way everything at least begins in one place.

I already introduced myself in that thread and had many wonderfully supportive and thought-provoking replies. If you're reading this and have been to that thread, you can likely skip this entry entirely :)

If you want to see that thread it can be found here:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3953

But here's the pertinent bits for now (and yes I write long and I tend to occasionally babble...another reason to keep things contained here!):

Heyla all,

History: I've been married to my DH 17 years, together for 22...met in first year college, we have one son (age 11). February of 2009 I caught my husband cheating (yes, I snooped) - that relationship had been going since the previous summer but wasn't physically sexual until that December. It was difficult to say the least, but we were working through things, slowly but with positivity when I discovered in May 2009 that he'd had another affair before that one, and after that it came out that there had been quite a history of sexual encounters over the previous 2 years as well...There's a lot more to all of this, but those are the big points.

Its been a long road, and a challenging one, but we had been doing okay, I was healing from the betrayal of my trust and he had said I had all the time I needed. The trust was coming back and so was the intimacy, which had been difficult for me. Then at the end of this August, he gave me a letter, stating he loved me and needed me but had needs beyond what he could get in our marriage and that it was basically opening up or going our separate ways. I was floored and, frankly, incredibly hurt. We'd discussed polyamory before - when I first discovered he was cheating, since his lover at the time was poly and he wanted to explore the idea with me at that point. We talked a LOT about it then, but it never went anywhere and he seemed to be happily mono and dedicated to making the marriage work and it just stopped being a topic of discussion. Anyways, he gave me the letter, there was a lot of discussion and he backed down on the ultimatum but told me how important this was to him.

That's how I discovered these boards - I read everything I could find, I journaled and blogged and questioned whether I could do this for him, for us. I found strength in the blogs and posts but several of the mono's here, and kept bringing more questions back to DH. I wasn't ready for anything but shared what I'd been reading and asked him to do the same...I expressed concerns and fears and he had plenty of answers, but hadn't done any reading, and over the course of Sept I began to have suspicions that he'd found someone else...he was wanting to negotiate guideline and move forward, when I was saying that I was gaining understanding but needed time, and needed him to look at some of the materials I was looking at, etc. He had ready answers for all my questions – answers I now know were rooted in experience.

Sure enough, he'd started corresponding with someone during the summer, a woman who lives in a city across the country, a city in which he's going to be spending 9 days in November...they spend hours each day communicating intimately, and had made plans for those 9 days, and possibly a meeting before then. He fessed up after I showed him my private blog (2 weeks ago) because he'd accused me of not respecting his needs for more than one partner and his ability to balance and love and care for multiple lovers, and said that I was just going through the motions of exploring poly. I guess my blog convinced him otherwise - I had done a LOT of reading and much, much more soul searching and processing, all of which I had shared with him in conversations, but he didn't buy it until he saw the pages of entries.

So now I know about her and that brings us to today. She is flying in to a nearby city (about 2 ½ hrs away) this weekend and he is going to meet her there on Friday and stay over until Saturday in a different hotel. I have asked that they not spend the night together, and she says penetrative sex is off the table. That's about as much as I have been able to get in the way of guidelines. Trust is obviously a huge issue for me, and this is not what I want....I requested slow, slow, slow, and no physical intimacy at all….he says they need to know if there is chemistry between them and that they want to be able to make out/fool around/share a bed. And that seems to be the end of it. It feels like there is little to no respect for my feelings and that I am getting lip service to having a say.

I feel like I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this...I wanted them to take things slow, but they are already very involved. I could insist they break it off, but I know that would hurt both of them and the repercussions would damage our already fragile marriage. I asked for them to slow down and that doesn't seem to be happening. We were able to negotiate some boundaries in terms of when communication between them would end for the night, so our nights are just ours, but that is it for the day to day. I feel I have been understanding and given them much more than most people in my position would. He tells me he has strong feelings for her and that she makes him really happy. He also says he's with me for the long haul and loves me and needs me as well.

I do love him and want to figure this out, make our marriage work, but I have already walked a path very similar to this and trusted and thought things were better, and got blindsided again. I am afraid that this last betrayal might be more than I can take, combined with the speed at which things are progressing. I had done so much processing and know that I was already leaning towards saying yes to his request, so I don't want to be unfair and dig in my heels out of petulance. At the same time, I am being consumed with hurt and fear and jealousy and grief. We are talking about it for hours at a time, to the detriment of our relationship in some ways, because that is all we talk about.

Sorry for the length...I hope I was clear enough in all my babbling. I find I'm living in a pretty intense adrenaline state most of the time, as I am facing so many things at once - not just the marriage opening, but the fact that it already had without my consent, on top of the cheating from last year which I was just recovering from, on top of feeling manipulated into exploring polyamory when they had already planned to get together in November if not sooner, and pretend that they had just met at that point...There are so many layers that I'm dealing with that I'm completely overwhelmed...

Thanks...
 
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This is the moment...

And now we're into that actual night I've been dreading.

It's real, it's happening right now. It's almost 1:00 am and he said he'd call me tonight once he left her place....but all of a sudden yesterday she dug in her heels and wanted to change that one boundary I had asked for, and really insisted upon - that they not spend the night together.

She gave him an all or nothing ultimatum...and it was left at that. So I have NO idea what's going on...last I heard, yesterday, was that he was going to stand firm on that and had suggested to her ending the night between 2:00 and 3:00 am. I guess if I want to talk to him and have some sense of what's going on I just need to stay up...and not knowing and not having any sense of time/parameters or anything is kind of completely killing me.

Trust is a huge issue, given our history. He has promised to stand firm to this guideline and I did talk to him briefly at 10:00 when he called to say goodnight to DS and to check in quickly. At that point it was all neutral and confusing to him, and they were going out for drinks...and that's where it's been left.

I think there are many reasons for my angst...There's been no easing into dating - they're starting with a long 2 day visit, even if they don't sleep together. I found out about them 3 weeks ago, they've never met, and have had a LD relationship, this is their first meeting, so they want to know if the chemistry is there in person. He's going to be gone most of tomorrow, because of travel time and the fact that he wants to maximize his time with her, and I haven't seen him since last night - it's already been 24 hours without seeing him, and will be another 20 before I do. That's incredibly hard for a first ever date, even if we can text or talk a little bit. Trust is a HUGE issue...I keep saying that, I know...but his history of cheating and the fact that the 2 of them made plans for how to keep things a secret from me and how and when they'd tell me...after he'd promised me no more lies, no matter what, and all the time in the world to heal from the cheating and betrayals of before...

But bottom line, not having any clue as to what's going on? That's the worst in this moment, because my imagination kicks ass, and is going full on into overdrive. And maybe I shouldn't have expectations for knowing what's going on...and maybe down the road if this path is the one we continue walking, it'll really not matter. But right now, it does matter.

Anyways...trying not to have a pity party. I am doing fairly well...Keeping busy, reading posts here, doing a bit of tidying, hanging out with DS (11) - from here on to be identified as the boyo, mixing up a fresh batch of henna for doing my hair tomorrow, watching the Project Runways I'd saved for tonight when I knew I'd need some distracting brain candy...

No tears, still and yet, which is good. Anxiety beyond words, can't eat, bit of a panic attack at midnight and again just now...I guess that's when I can watch the passing of time...And really, a lot of numbness...I think I'm keeping a lot down until I get more information. For all I know there won't be any spark...or the boundary issues cause serious troubles...or...anything could be happening and I'm a pretty chill and logical person, even despite all this hard stuff I'm facing, and I guess I don't see the point of letting myself get lost in the emotions until I know what they'll be. So I know I'm packing stuff down and it will come out later, but since I don't know what will come out...I'm just being okay with myself. Allowing the panic and anxiety a bit, then distracting myself.

I have to say that I am not always this rational and calm...and that I could easily, with one phone call, go right off the deep end. We'll see. I have some anti-anxiety meds sitting on the kitchen counter should it come to that...they're ready but I'm trying to see if i can go without them.

Anyways, enough for now...
These posts will be LONG, for anyone who comes reading, because I write to process...and will often write in a great big circle, with little spurs off the line and treks into weird places...but ending up where I started with some answers or solutions...It's how my strange brain works...
 
Whimsey, you seem like a woman with a good plan. Keep going and breath.
It's hard and taking care of yourself is most important. You are showing a great amount of courage and trust. So keep doing until your at a place you can rest.
 
Hang in there Whimsey. These things can work out well. We've just been hanging out on the couch watching a movie (way different time zone) and I could barely contain the love I feel for Z. And yet just over two years ago I was exactly where you are, although not handling it nearly so well.

The coming together after the time away can be wonderful if you let it.

Hugs
 
Thanks Sage and LMBL

As the night progresses, I'm beginning to spiral.

I'm glad I lasted as long as I did. I think I was expecting a short text or call informing me of the direction of things, since it was so completely up in the air, literally all or nothing.

And I presume he's lost himself in her and I have to accept that...I was quite confident that would be the case, but it's ripping me apart right now...mostly not being informed. And maybe that's an unfair expectation...last I heard, over 4 hours ago, was they were going for drinks, and last call was half an hour ago...so I think there would have been room in there for a short text.

I need to quit hoping for information...this is nothing new, he routinely loses himself in whatever his focus is.

But I'm still struggling, because last I heard, last night, he'd call me, and so I'm waiting up.
And maybe I should've said not to. I can't go to bed right now, because if I'm not around when he wants to call, he'll be worried.

Arg.

Thanks for saying I'm handling it well, and showing courage...
I had to grow a LOT after the affairs, because he didn't break the main one off for months...I lived like this for a long time.
And he'd moved down the street, though we still had meals together in the evenings. I had to learn to live as a single person, a single mom, because DS stays here...and that gave me strength and a knowledge that even if it's hard, I can at least rely on myself, and take care of myself.

Tonight I don't want to, though.
I want to not be alone, I want to lean on someone.
Mostly, I want a long, deep hug.
I am incredibly tactile. I want to be held and I want a hug.

I'll keep breathing, and keep busy.
I'm planning my next 2 tattoos...and I'm going to get them soon.
I was going to get them after the affairs...and then didn't.

LMBL - when you said breathe, you called it...that's one tattoo
the other is serenity.
And I need those reminders.
Wrote them on myself with a sharpie, actually :rolleyes:

I'll be okay.
I know I will.
I just would like to not being living in my imagination...

Thanks ladies, for listening and letting me rant a wee bit and mostly for offering such lovely support.
 
That spiraling?

Going a little (lot) out of control.

No word well past when I was told I'd hear from him...
Then a terse, completely vague text saying he's running late.

In my private blog I said if I hadn't heard from him by 3:30 I was going to bed - I have a boyo here who needs a mom who's had SOME sleep...and given that I managed 3 hours last night and the night before and only 1 hour the night before that...sleep is very important.

But calling it a night means emailing or texting, either of which makes a noise on his phone, and I was avoiding that out of respect, not wanting him to feel pressured. Because while I want to pressure, if this is about trust, I need to trust.

That's really hard right now.

And I have no idea if I should wait up now or not. Because I have to presume he's still with her...if he weren't he could call or text as he walked or caught a cab back to his hotel.

Maybe I'm jumping to horrid conclusions.

I'm upset, because this is me extending all my trust and faith in the face of severe betrayal yet again. With only 3 weeks of knowing about her at all, and 5 weeks of being told it was poly or nothing for him (though he backed down on that a bit).

So shattered, and already broken and burnt by past experiences...it would seem to me that I should be treated with a bit of care.

I asked him, when we were talking poly, and talking relationships, before I knew about her...I said that what I needed was to be treated with at least the same level of consideration and respect and care that any woman he became involved with would be treated.

And that was a light bulb moment for him, because he hadn't thought of things in that light, and realized that in the past (and currently, though I didn't know about his GF), he wasn't treating me nearly as well, let alone the same as, any of his other women. There's something about me, and he and I, and our dynamic,that makes it harder for him to see my needs. And its not me not expressing them, because I DO. And I think its fair to say that its not because he isn't treated with respect, consideration and care... I'm okay if he weighs in on that, because I think it's pretty fair and accurate.

Anyways....maybe its an emergency, maybe something else.

All I know is she resisted the 'curfew' and cutting things off and going their own ways for a few hours tonight. And that the end time, as I was informed by him, was 2:00 - 2:30, with a little wiggle room. So 3:05...makes me wonder.

Anyways...
I started out relatively positive and very calm and organized...
and now the negativity is showing, and it is becoming a bit of a rant/pity party.

At least I *know* I'll snap out of it by tomorrow at the latest, because I don't do grudges.

grrrrrr...
and *sob*
 
I'm taking a break from the forum, but your post pulled me in. It sounds so similar to Karma and I.

We wouldn't be where we are without a lot of hard, honest talks. And Karma putting in a lot of work to gain back the trust he violated.

I question why your husband isn't willing to do this. To put forth the effort it takes. Karma lost all privacy after I found out. I've loosened up, now. But for awhile I was checking everything. And he let me. (Huge thing for him). He followed every request I made, no matter how pointless or trivial he thought it was.

Karma thought I was at a standstill too, for quite awhile. Until I let him in on where I had been and where I was.

Communication is talked about all over this forum and there's a reason for it. You both have got to communicate.

There's a lot of growth to be had, working through something like this.

I'd like to think we're on the otherside of it now, but we still have some bumps in the road.

From what I can see, your husband seems to be ignoring your needs in all of this. He's got to respect you and your feelings. And you him. This is a two way street.

I hope you get your phone call. I know waiting without knowing anything kills me.

And I hope when he comes home, regardless of how this weekend goes for him, the two of you can talk, and he can respect your needs.

It's not going to work if he doesn't.
 
Well...

I guess I'm going to be sleep deprived after all.

That did NOT go well.
Between he and I.
It seemed to go well between he and his GF, except the leaving at the end...


He got back to the hotel far later than I'd imagined. And there was no communication about how long he'd be. And I did lose my cool, which was not well done of me. I don't tend to really lose it, but...

He said he had to stay because she was emotional and needed to be held.
I was bordering on hysterical and needing to be reassured.

And it was a hard place for him to be in, and I completely get that...

But he also lost his cool and it went downhill from there.

And so instead of a positive re-connect...I felt NO connection at all.
It was so hard. It is continuing to be so hard, because he's gone all tomorrow (today) until late, and works all Sunday - 14 hours.

I'll try something different tomorrow and not ask for any communication. Because maybe that will be better. I have no idea. Basic travel info and if there's anything he wants to share with me, I'm here. If not....boyo and I will keep busy and we'll have to see where my brain goes.

I don't know.

I'm really sad because I started this evening and tonight really strong and positive. And maybe if I hadn't waited up for him that would've continued.
I'll never know.

Feeling discouraged and ever so lonely right now.
Am going to crawl into bed and see if I can't get 3 - 4 hours sleep...
 
Whimsey, Don't beat yourself up. You have been through a difficult situation and you did what you need to do to see trust. You are strong and brave.
2 days is a very long date.

Keep breathing and you will get through the day. You can do this, then talk when you are calm.
 
Whimsey, did you manage to get any sleep? My heart is aching for you. I'm sorry that hearing from your husband didn't help. Right now you deserve a lot of gratitude and appreciation for the huge effort you are making, and it doesn't sound like you are getting it. Frankly your husband is behaving like a monster.....but that doesn't mean he *is* a monster or that he doesn't love you. Mine was a monster too when he was deep in NRE and seemed to be turning away from me, refusing to see my pain. It was like temporary insanity. That has passed and now we are closer than we have ever been. I hope this can happen for you too, that your relationship will grow stronger from this. Give yourself a lot of credit for what you are doing....you are challenging your heart to expand in a totally unfamiliar direction. If nothing else, you'll learn a lot about yourself and about love. Keep doing kind things for yourself! Sending you hugs and best wishes.
 
Hi Whimsey,

Hope you are OK . I can't help feeling that insisting on the frequent updates did nobody any good. When we first started our polyandry we had very few rules but the one big one was the no-contact rule. And we have a 4 day, 3 day split. So I didn't hear from my wife for a 3 whole days at a time. The other guy didn't hear from her for a whole 4 days at a time. It was hard but very neccessary.
I learned to get on with stuff and get stronger in her 3 days away. It gave me plenty of time to process. Having updates like that will drive you crazy and will lead to resentment all round. You already had a fall out with your husband and he is not even back yet!
Chill girl it will be OK.

Admitted you have much previous grevious with his cheating. I am sure that is a factor in how you are feeling. I am not in any way criticizing you just trying to help you through.

Good luck. :)
 
Hi whimsey, your husband is an accomplished Cheater. It will take him awhile to understand fully what you are feeling and how it effects you. You have absolutely no reason to not blow up. He will get to experience how his actions affect you. Hopefully he will realize where his priorities lye. He is used to leaving the woman he has just fucked and coming home to your smiling face, not an irate deeply hurt one. I can imagine the shocking change for him. That absolutely in no way means you should not be anything but yourself, emotions and all.

Am I to understand that he did the thing you disliked and were concerned about the most? Which is holding her, consoling her and taking care of her needs? Did they have sex? I can imagine that it might be easy for him to lie about that part, but I really hope he isn't.

I hope he is reading all this. As someone who has cheated in the past I have some empathy for him and you. Its a difficult adjustment to poly. Cheating, on its surface is so much easier. At least at the beginning anyways. All NRE and nothing else. After a time with one person it seems to fall flat when its discovered that there is no way to move forward with out people knowing, then it gets stale. I really hope that he knows that all this hard work at being an up-standing husband who is attentive to your needs first as his primary is necessary. He will experience a world of pain himself, that is part of it. Unfortunately he has chosen a path that is more difficult than being honest from the beginning. He will have to do a lot of sucking up his own wants now to get on track. If he does, the journey isn't as long or disasterous. The sooner he realises that he had his fun and now its time to work, the better. I'm not sure, but it sounds like his having to now deal with two womens emotions and a new metamour in her husband was maybe premature to the marginally more comfortable path he could of taken of no new women until you and he were completely connected again. Dropping this new woman would of been much more easy I would think. Hard at first, but a delay for as long as it takes would of been easier I would think. Now he could very well of connected with her more deeply and it could very well be more difficult on all of you.

Again Mr. whimsey (I forget your name, sorry), take it from a seasoned veteran, go at the pace of your wife. She needs a slower pace and if you want to keep her on your side with this, you should do as she asks I think. As painfully hard as that is when you are swooning over another. Now is the time to realize that Christmas is over for you and its time to do some work. I know you don't know me from Adam, and likely couldn't give a shit what I say but look into your heart and figure out what is most respectful to those in your life. Keep in the moment with THAT rather than who you are with and you may just find a rock to hold on to.
 
Thanks once again

I just talked to him, briefly...he had just arrived at her hotel.

I think he is absolutely living in the moment. He apologized for not communicating more, very formally, and moved on. I know I shouldn't quibble with tone - he took responsibility for that and for leaving her last night. It was very clear that he was doing it for me and would much rather not have.

So I take from this that guidelines are going to chafe him and cause more troubles, but he is used to getting his way with me and I don't know if I should stand my ground or not. It's moot right now, but will come up big time when he's going to be in her city of 9 days starting Nov. 6.

If I'm struggling this much now...how can I handle that?

You are very wise people, and very supportive and I really appreciate it beyond words.

vodkafan:
I didn't actually request tons of updates...I wanted to be in the loop, because last I had heard it would be all or nothing, and I thought that knowing that they had resolved all thier issues and were moving forward in a relationship would be (or that they were just closing out the local watering hole) would be good to know. I think I was doing pretty good until he'd well passed the time when he said he'd be heading out, and hadn't contacted me for almost 5 hours just to let me know that - hey, things are looking good, going back to her room, or hey, this is not going as planned, getting thoroughly plastered...

I can see where no contact might be easier in some ways. We do have a kid, so communication with him is important...he needs things to be stable if possible and of course he knows things are rocky right now.

But thanks for your thoughts and input. I agree that the past trust issues colour everything, and that's to be expected, I think.

Mohegan:
Thanks for your perspective. I'm glad you've been able to come out on the other side of this...I'm really struggling with seeing how that can happen right now, as things stand. I'm hoping, since he's been reading this, that other perspetives might help him as well as me. I agree that communication is key. And I think that while he's there, he will continue to be torn and on the defensive. So hopefully when he gets home we can work on things.

And he isn't as willing as it sounds like Karma was, to be completely transparent and open...that hurts a lot. He is willing to go to a point, and tells me he's being honest, but he hedges around things or gives non-answers, or won't offer information so I have to push until I find the right question to unlock the information, which is hard work and causes more defensiveness on his part and frustration on mine.

He's going to be exhausted when he gets home, and so will I and I know that it is when we're both wiped that we really mess up the communication, so...I'm not sure how to handle that yet. It's harder with him working all day and night tomorrow as well.

Rachelina:
Thanks again for your support...I think NRE is huge right now - they've finally met after months of emails, texts and chats. He is down playing it. I think it's a pride thing to not admit to be lost in it, so he's using other words...infatuated, in love...

Your words struck a deep chord in me...when you said I deserved to be appreciated for the huge effort...that really is missing right now...he just sounds exasperated with me. He tells me he loves me, and he apologized very precisely for not following through on communication. That's been it. He hasn't acknowledged my pain - in fact he told how upset she was last night when he wanted to go...so he stayed and held her until she feel asleep...he told me she was hysterical....well, by that point, before I finally heard from him, so was I. But he is so firmly in that moment with her, to all appearances...

I have to say that I am always well aware that there are 2 or more sides to every story and my bottom line rule is for respect of anyone, so I am trying to make sure I am clear that I am fully aware that this is my perspective only, and that I was in a place of deep hurt. That being said, I am also clear that communication is not the only issue, though it is a huge one.

redpepper:
You are one wise woman. Thanks for your perspective, because you have been in his shoes, and to me, it sounds like you really get it.

You're right that they were intimate, though no sex...though that's what he really is hoping for. And honestly, I'd like to get that done...there was a lot of talking and connecting and making out. And she melted down and he stayed to hold her until she fell asleep, which is past the point when I was expecting to hear from him, and which is exactly the sort of intimacy that scares me the most. They didn't sleep together...somehow him staying with her, holding her until she fell asleep feels even worse. He feels a strong need to protect her, and he sees me as being strong.

I am so far from strong these days....I used to be, I felt really good about who I was as a person. But the cheating and the lying and everything that went with it really, really eroded a lot of that and I am far more fragile than I've ever been in my life. And I am working on getting strong, I am...I don't like this version of me...but it's hard, because it really is just me making myself strong again, and that's lonely and its hard because it wasn't me who knocked my foundations...I feel like I need and deserve help rebuilding that. And just when I was starting to really get stronger about the past cheating and about myself...and just when I was opening up to a whole lot of sexual stuff and personal stuff...awakening, really...just when it felt like we were re-connecting...that's when all this happened...I wasn't strong and I got knocked right back down.

Whoa - sorry....that came out of left field...that's what I mean about writing to process...It was really hard because it feels like he put supporting her over supporting me, and logically, I can see the importance - because he was there with her in the moment and it was obvious that she needed him. And I am chill and laid back for the most part, so I think it was easiest to just be in the moment and deal with me later. But I'm so broken right now and I need a bit of help putting myself back together and his choices and actions didn't help. They went to a place where they both knew there was a liklihood of her breaking down like that, right before he was supposed to head out for the night, so it didn't come out of the blue, and knowing they had all of today, I think they could've waited until today and maybe things would have gone differently.

Thanks for your words of wisdom to him...I hope he reads them and takes them to heart...I don't think I actually need as much as many others in this situation - I've been managing fairly well and have been feeling proud of that...but I do have needs too, and have made huge changes for him and for her...and those things need to be honoured as well.

And he doesn't have a name here yet, really....he called himself 'the mess in question', but names have such power and I hesitate to call him mess, which would maybe be logical. He and I need to talk about that. In the meantime, MR Whimsey made me LOL and that is a very good thing today :)

Thanks again everyone
and thanks for being willing to wade through all my words!

Today is harder than I thought - I figured I'd be distracted with activities and maybe excited about him coming home, but instead I'm just picturing them holed up in her hotel all day long and us fighting when he gets home.

A good friend of mine says to re-write your story...Put a positive and joyful spin on it. I'm usually pretty good with that, not so much today. I think I need to give myself some space to wallow, just a bit, and to be gentle with myself...and THEN I can look at re-writing this story of mine...

It helps so very, very much to be here. Thank you all.
Many hugs to you - I know the roads have been rocky at some point for every one of you and may be again. I'm gathering inspiration as I go...
 
Glad things are going OK. I kept reading your posts last night but was too tired to write anything coherent.

No communication doesn't work for me. Like you, the less I know the more my imagination takes over.
I am learning to stay out of my head when Z is with J. It is very good practise in thought control. If I can filter out thoughts that don't serve me I'm better.
 
Don't forget he is used to deception whimsey. Try not I punish him for the information he gives you as much as you want to. You need to be on the same team. That is what connection is about and the two of you didn't get a chance to complete that entirely as he was still cheating by talking to her on line. I would suggest talking to him about trying to achieve that or keep as much as you can right now by communicating and letting emotions out but not taking them as a trigger for more in each other. He might be reacting with apathy because he is overwhelmed and consumed by self protection in all this. After all he has now chosen to take on a needy secondary and is trying to play super hero. He could fail at that and really, I for one would not be surprised. Setting oneself up for success is far more affective but some people are ruled by their gentals and a pretty face.

I am gathering (assuming) this woman is an emothional mess because she is cheating? I hope that isn't another thing to pile on this shit load.
 
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I'm exhausted so I hope this makes sense. I wanted to touch on the contact while he's away.

For me, I need to know I can call whenever I need to. Cricket and I try not to interupt eachothers time with Karma, but there is no off limits to calls, as long as we're respectful. If we know they are on a romantic date, we wait. If they are just watching movies at home, no big deal.

Their overnights have been here, so that hasn't been an issue yet. But I have strict rules that when he does stay there, I can call if I need to, and I get a goodnight phone call.

That's my husband. If I don't get to curl up and go to sleep with him, I at least want to hear "goodnight, I love you". And he usualy does the same for her.

I guess it depends on the dynamics of the relationship, but I could never go long periods of time with no contact, and I doubt Cricket could either.

Ususaly when he goes out with her we have a "call me around this time" set up. He calls and just checks in. A lot of that is because of my medical problems, but it's peace of mind too.

As for standing your ground, you need to respect his space and his needs, but he needs to do the same with you. I second the going at the slowest persons pace. It's what got us through. Karma and Cricket were very accomodating to my needs. And very understanding that whatI was okay with one day, I may not be the next. That caused some fights, but we worked through it because we all want this to work. So it means we all have to work together.

I do think you'll have to make some compromises, but right now, he needs to be showing you that he's willing to gain back your trust. It'll make things easier on him in the long run, as he won't be met with as much opposition. Work now, reap the benefits later.
 
The thing Mr. W needs to realize is that he has breached the most sacred of trusts. Akin to that of a child to its parent.

When we enter marriage and go through the ceremony and all our family and friends are there we are committing to TRUSTING each other no matter what. That doesn't mean that we are going to be perfect, but we are going to be honest about it.

We are sold this idea that marriage means a certain thing and if we don't follow that we have to go underground to get our needs met. There is no room for others in traditional marriage and no room for honest communication. We have to suck up desire for others and a need to love more than one. At least at this time in history. Its bull shit really, but that is how it is.

We go into it trusting as a child does and then when someone cheats that raw, naive trust is broken and I think impossible to get back. It changes a person entirely. There is no hope of that innocence coming back. Once the trust is broken, its done.

Now that doesn't mean that achieving a new level of trust is not possible. It is, but it takes on a different form. No more of the blind, "you have to trust me" can happen again. There will always be doubt. You are at a place now I think where he has lost the right to assume that you will just trust. You get to have a say from now on as to what happens and you get to put your foot down in order to gain grounding, strength and assurance that you and your relationship with him will be okay. He has lost the right to just do whatever without your say. You trusted him and that is gone.

So if he is surprised that you are putting your foot down, this might be time for him to realize how it's going to be in the future. That doesn't mean you will dictate what happens, but will now be an active participant in that. Because obviously he is unable to handle that on his own, or he wouldn't of had affairs.

Mono had a two year affair and got kicked out by his wife for it. His daughter hasn't spoken to him in two years and the repercussions of his deceit live on. He is off this afternoon to visit his nephew and niece on her side. They will have nothing to do with me and don't want him to talk about his life now. It's been TWO years! That pain lasts a life time. It makes me sad to feel like some kind of whore. As if it was me he had an affair with. It wasn't me. but it doesn't matter. Not only that, I pass the places he used to go with this woman, occasionally she comes up and I am disgusted and don't want him to touch me. It wasn't even me he had an affair on. I would love to know Mono's wife and often tease that I would love to call her up and ask what the hell she did with him when he behaves a certain way. I have compassion for her. None for the woman he cheated with. He says she was a lovely woman, emotional and caring.... all I can muster is she is a cheating bitch that didn't have it in her to buck up and take care of her husband and life and move on or fix the issues between them. I'm trying to have some compassion, but fail.

My dad is still punished by my mum for his affair when I was 10. She never trusted him again and he never lived it down. Mono's mum suffered through his dad having many affairs over the years. He was a sailor for the Canadian naval fleet. She resigned herself to the pain and they never talk of it.

The point is that if Mr. W thinks this is all going to blow over because you are being so good about it, he is wrong. I think he needs to get out of his ego and selfishness and start empathizing and being respectful if he thinks you are worth keeping in his life.

HE has to live with it too. The guilt, the wondering if he can control himself, the confusion about the difference between having it easy in just lying and now having to be honest and not knowing how... all hard, but he is a better man for being honest. Now he just has to realize that you are worth MORE than any other woman and he has to show you that double time now.... if he doesn't then I for one don't think he is able to be poly and quite frankly I see no reason for you to stay and waste your life...

early days yet though... you are doing great and a remarkable woman to even consider working on this. You are obviously okay without him. Be proud! and at the end of the day, if he doesn't pull his socks up and you leave, be proud of that too. You have a responsibility to yourself and your boy to show how a woman deserves to be treated. How everyone deserves to be treated.
 
There are a number of points that I'd kind of like to clarify or address, but I don't think this is really the place for it - this is whimsey's, so I'll fade into the background again...

One thing, though, whimsey - 'mess' is a perfect username for me, and we both know it.

Headed home now, as I said I would be. Heart full of love for whimsey, as it always is.
 
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