How far should fluid bonding go??

One of the reasons--I think probably the biggest reason, based on what he's said--that S2 isn't seeing or seeking any other partner is because of the fluid bonding issue. It could have destroyed our relationship.

He and I used condoms for the first month and a half we were together. At one point after we knew each other well, because his profile on the site where we met states clearly that he was looking for someone who would eventually be willing to forgo condoms, I talked to him about fluid bonding, including getting the assurance that I was the first person he'd had sex with since the end of his 14-year marriage. At the time, S2 said he felt like it was too soon for us to take that step... though a week later, it accidentally happened. (Yes, legitimately by accident, as unbelievable as that sounds.)

But... a few weeks after he and I fluid bonded, he had a date with another woman from that site. Someone he'd been talking with online but had never met before. And on that date, he had unprotected sex with her.

Two weeks later, he "felt weird" and was tested for STDs, and had to confess to me that he'd had unprotected sex with her and that I should probably be tested...and so should Hubby. Until then, he hadn't even told me he'd had sex with her at all, let alone that they hadn't used condoms. That made me angry, and I was hurt that a month and a half was "too soon" for him to fluid bond with me but he'd done so on the first date with her. And I told him so. He was afraid he'd lost me; we were both afraid Hubby would tell me to stop seeing S2. Neither happened, and fortunately his tests and mine came back clean. (Hubby despises doctors, and had chosen not to get tested unless I tested positive for something.)

Because of that, he told the other woman he wouldn't be seeing her again, and told me that he'd pretty much decided he needed to stay exclusive with me so he wouldn't make any further "stupid choices." He also promised me that, if that changes, he will tell me immediately if he has sex with someone else, and he will use condoms with them until they're tested. But so far, he's still saying he's going to stick with only seeing me.
 
Wow, I am filled with so much gratitude for everyone's perspectives. This has helped me so much. Especially the firm but kind reminders that everyone needs to set their own limits and boundaries--and not dictate any one else's.

I guess I'm wondering what people usually do when they add a new partner into the mix. If I start seeing someone else, I would use condoms. And my partner has said the same. Is this not common practice?? I think I find it a little audacious that his girlfriend just expects that everyone will accommodate her, and if my partner doesn't oblige she will end the relationship. I think it is pretty selfish since they only see each other 3-4 times a month. This is starting to make me wonder why my partner wants to be with someone like this. But their relationship pre-dates me and he has a special BDsm relationship with her (which he and I do not have, particularly) that I know he does not want to give up. And I don't need him to give it up. I just don't know how much risk is reasonable. I respect that many people don't put that much weight in fluid bonding, but rightly or wrongly, I guess I do. It seems that me and his gf share that in common!
 
The rule in my V is that if any of us starts dating someone new, we are not allowed to have sex with that new person *at all* -- protected or otherwise. Only after much getting to know the new person, much trust and a good friendship with all three of us, would they be welcomed into our V (making us an N), and *then* they could have sex with us. The idea being that we'd trust them enough by then to fluid bond. And I'm thinking we'd ask them to get tested for the whole range of STI's before things got to that point.

Chances aren't great that our V will ever become an N. But that's how the hypothetical would play out.
 
I think it is pretty selfish since they only see each other 3-4 times a month.

Isn't it selfish to want your metamour to change the shape of her relationship with her boyfriend (your SO) because you want protection?

Fluid bonding represents closeness and trust to me. It's a milestone in many committed relationships. I would feel the same hurt and disrespect if that request were made of me. The fact that they see each other only 3-4 times each month makes the sex they can fit in that much more scarce and precious.

It certainly doesn't make their sex less important or bonding than the sex that you have with your SO. I'm starting to agree with Marcus that this is about control.

In my poly group, STIs aren't as problematic as the way the amours and metamours will handle STIs. If a person can't handle the possibility of getting one and would flip out if diagnosed with an STI, that person uses condoms. If a person can handle the risk in a mature fashion if they or others are diagnosed with an STI, that person can chose to go without. Everyone makes their own decisions based on their risk profile and their ability to maturely handle themselves (i.e. no drama).

I am currently fluid bonded with my partner and he is fluid bonded with his live-in partner. His third partner uses condoms. If anyone of us chooses to have uncovered sex with someone new, we all get to re-evaluate where we stand.

My partner once chose someone who I thought would handle an STI diagnosis with drama. If he had fluid bonded with her, I would have chosen condoms to take myself out of the equation.

In the end, OP, I think it is up to your partner to make his choices based on how he feels about condoms and STIs. And then it's your choice.
 
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Isn't it selfish to want your metamour to change the shape of her relationship with her boyfriend (your SO) because you want protection?

Fluid bonding represents closeness and trust to me. It's a milestone in many committed relationships. I would feel the same hurt and disrespect if that request were made of me. The fact that they see each other only 3-4 times each month makes the sex they can fit in that much more scarce and precious.

It certainly doesn't make their sex less important or bonding than the sex that you have with your SO. I'm starting to agree with Marcus that this is about control.

In my poly group, STIs aren't as problematic as the way the amours and metamours will handle STIs. If a person can't handle the possibility of getting one and would flip out if diagnosed with an STI, that person uses condoms. If a person can handle the risk in a mature fashion if they or others are diagnosed with an STI, that person can chose to go without. Everyone makes their own decisions based on their risk profile and their ability to maturely handle themselves (i.e. no drama).

I am currently fluid bonded with my partner and he is fluid bonded with his live-in partner. His third partner uses condoms. If anyone of us chooses to have uncovered sex with someone new, we all get to re-evaluate where we stand.

My partner once chose someone who I thought would handle an STI diagnosis with drama. If he had fluid bonded with her, I would have chosen condoms to take myself out of the equation.

In the end, OP, I think it is up to your partner to make his choices based on how he feels about condoms and STIs. And then it's your choice.

The girlfriend change the shape of her relationship by bringing In another partner into the mix. That brings about renegotions in my opinion. No one is forcing the husbanf use condoms with the girlfriend, it will be a choice he makes if he wants to continue to be barrier free with his wife
 
The girlfriend change the shape of her relationship by bringing In another partner into the mix. That brings about renegotions in my opinion. No one is forcing the husbanf use condoms with the girlfriend, it will be a choice he makes if he wants to continue to be barrier free with his wife
This. You said what I meant, and used less words for it. Kudos. :D


(I neither fluid-bond nor go bareback, I just don't have sex. ;))
Ack. I just noticed this little brain-fart that is by now outside of editable time. Of course, fluid-bond and go bareback are the same, so one of these should be "use a condom" instead. *facepalm*

Seems you folks understood what I actually meant, though. ;)
 
Yes, we understand. :) "Oh that's just InsaneMystic. You know how he is." "Poor guy." "A special guy, really." "He really is."
 
Yes, we understand. :) "Oh that's just InsaneMystic. You know how he is." "Poor guy." "A special guy, really." "He really is."
Awwwwh. :) Thank you. It means a lot for me to be seen for the quirky oddball I am and be accepted at the same time.
 
I am stuck at this;
Reality.

Reality is we always and only have dependable control over ourself.
Reality is that there is no "typically when people start a new relationship they do x."

Therefore; we have to decide what level of risk we as individuals are willing to take and make it our personal duty (and choice) how much protection we will use and with whom.

I have been fluid bonded with everyone I have been sexually involved with. I have also used protection Of one sort or another at different times with everyone I have been sexually involved with.
It is my body.
I decide what level of risk I am willing to take with any given lover.
They may choose LESS risk (more protection) or vice versa, than I feel I need. If so, I can either accept it or choose not to be sexually involved.
But I can't make anyone else do anything one way or the other & I certainly can't ENSURE that people I am not sexually involved with are handling protection in the manner I prefer.
 
Hi everyone. I am so grateful that you have all shared your thoughts. It really has helped me so much. My partner and I have been talking a lot about this issue and it was really through many of your postings that I've been able to get clarity for myself.

I was able to see that I was upset that no one asked my consent about fluid bonding with my partner's girlfriend's new partner. It was just something that happened and I didn't even know about it until after it happened. But it's been really helpful to get the responses to see that I *do* have a choice in terms of what risk I choose to accept going forward.

It's been also really good to talk about this with my partner because he's been able to see that while he wants to use condoms with her, he is freaked out by confrontation and also doesn't want to hurt her because she already feels that she is not getting perhaps as much as she would like from my partner. He kind of recognizes that taking more risk than he wants with her just to avoid confrontation is not the best way to make a decision about sexual health. But I know that we would never have been able to have such a good and productive conversation had I been putting pressure on him. So that felt really good.

He is having a phone conversation with her tonight and then he and I are going on vacation with his parents for a week. They haven't seen each other since this initial "blow up" conversation, but if she still refuses to use condoms after we are back from vacation I think I will offer to use condoms at least until we figure this out. I think probably if everyone wants to remain fluid bonded then I would need to meet them both. Which seems pretty scary to me. I know for people who are super experienced in the poly world this is old hat, but it would be a big step for me. Although I'm nervous, it is also pretty liberating and wonderful to imagine taking this step. After being conditioned to see monogamy as the only option it is really interesting to move into these new ways of being. Difficult, scary, but ultimately good.

THANK YOU, ALL!!
 
Glad to hear you got some things resolved. :)
 
Everyone has the ability to make choices regarding their own sexual health.

You get to choose whether or not to insist on condoms with your boyfriend.

He gets to choose whether to insist on condoms with his other girlfriend or accept that you might insist on using condoms with him.

She gets to choose whether she will accept his decision to insist on condoms or decide to stop having sex with him or even break up with him over it.

You've set your boundaries, it seems. You do not wish to be part of a larger fluid-bonded network with her and her new boyfriend as things stand right now. You have made the choice that if your boyfriend keeps having unprotected sex with her, you are not interested in unprotected sex with him. Now he gets to choose. It isn't up to you to offer to be the one to use condoms. No sacrifice on your portion is necessary. Your boyfriend gets to make the choice. It's great that you're willing to respect his consent if he chooses to keep having unprotected sex with her.

She can get as angry as she wants, but at the end of the day I would hope that in the interest of being a loving and respectful partner, she will respect any decision he makes, including asking to use condoms if she wants to have sex with him. It's his body to make those decisions with. Not hers and not yours.

I would say right now your boyfriend really needs to step up, figure out what HE wants given all the information he has available to him, and make a decision. You and his other girlfriend don't get to fight over a bare penis like it's a piece of meat. He gets to choose what to do with his body and he needs to take responsibility for that.

Down the road there may be other options. Perhaps the four of you can build trust. But for right now and always, I think it is best practice to really operate under a paradigm that affirms personal choice and consent.
 
I was able to see that I was upset that no one asked my consent about fluid bonding with my partner's girlfriend's new partner. It was just something that happened and I didn't even know about it until after it happened. But it's been really helpful to get the responses to see that I *do* have a choice in terms of what risk I choose to accept going forward.

If this would ever happen to me, I'd have myself tested. Definitely.

nycindie said:
I am curious - what would meeting your metamour and her other partner(s) accomplish, with regard to safer sex practices? Would a handshake and a how-do-you-do change what you need to do to take care of your own sexual health?

This. In my book it takes sooo much more than that to establish the level of trust to fluid bond. Like, months of dating, with my own partners - and I don't even know what it would take with a metamour.
 
Sigh. I keep feeling like I'm getting a handle on this. But then maybe not. I appreciate what people are saying about everyone needing make individual choices about their own safety.

No, of course a handshake and such is not sufficient to build trust. But I'm trying to be open and examine all possibilities, including working toward building a trusting relationship with my partner's gf and her new partner. Although I recognize it is reasonable for me to have concerns about fluid bonding with my partner's partner's partner, I guess I also feel guilty that because of my discomfort, he is now embroiled in conflict with his gf and may even lose the relationship if she refuses to use a condom. I see that everyone needs to set their own boundaries and limits (and then people will respond as they see fit), but I guess a part of me still feels shitty about the whole thing.

Another interesting issue that is coming to light for us, are the differences in opinions around hierarchy. His gf practices relationship anarchy, which is why it is important for her to maintain barrier-free sex with both of her partners. It is also why she feels my partner should not prefer to be barrier-free with me over her. Before I came along, my partner was happily practicing solo-polyamory and was not looking for a life partner. But as with everything in life, things have shifted and changed. Both he and I (at least at this time), want something more like partnered non-monogamy. He said yesterday, "maybe I'm not polyamorous, after all." I don't know. Does this make us poly outcasts?? I kind of view it as everyone needing to be authentic to their own desires as things shift and change over time.

So I'm seeing how while there are real concerns about health and safety (and therefore, at this time I will choose to wear a condom should my partner choose to remain barrier-free with his gf...I like what someone suggested about maybe further down the road considering building a trusting relationship with the other people in the mix), much of this conflict has to do with people wanting different things. If his gf wants everyone to be on board with relationship anarchy--and from what I hear, even her new partner is struggling with this--and not everyone feels the same, then there are going to be problems. The way my partner and I see it, is that everyone is important, but relationships are different and that is okay. For example, his gf talks with her new partner every day and he is starting to spend time with her child. Whereas my partner only sees her 3-4 times a month and exchanges some text messages here and there. It's not that they are not important to one another (in fact, I respect the fact that they are very important in that they share a special sexual connection that is more kinky than I, or the new partner, really want). So I see it as just recognizing that there are different levels of closeness, and therefore, it is not wrong to make decisions about sexual health that reflect these levels of closeness.

I am absolutely taking people's advice to allow my partner to make his own decision, and then I will make my own decision. But yikes, this is difficult.
 
Although I recognize it is reasonable for me to have concerns about fluid bonding with my partner's partner's partner, I guess I also feel guilty that because of my discomfort, he is now embroiled in conflict with his gf and may even lose the relationship if she refuses to use a condom. I see that everyone needs to set their own boundaries and limits (and then people will respond as they see fit), but I guess a part of me still feels shitty about the whole thing.

I hear you. Been there, too. It does not feel nice to see one's partner struggle because of something I do. At those times I need to get back to basics: what is important *for me*? Like in this particular case: what do I value higher: my own sexual safety or some emotional discomfort for my partner. And yes, in my case it definitely would be the sexual safety. That said, to stand behind me own values can be emotionally straining for me, too, at times. But in the end it has been worth it every single time.

Another interesting issue that is coming to light for us, are the differences in opinions around hierarchy. His gf practices relationship anarchy, which is why it is important for her to maintain barrier-free sex with both of her partners. It is also why she feels my partner should not prefer to be barrier-free with me over her.

Hold on... I am very fond of the relationship anarchy ideals... but nowhere in the RA manifesto or RA discussions on this forum or what have you have I read about RA meaning being reckless about the health of myself or the people I am involved with. Now I do not buy this "RA means barrier free sex with everyone" thing. This would actually be a huge red flag for me: Never Get Fluid Bonded With This Individual!

Before I came along, my partner was happily practicing solo-polyamory and was not looking for a life partner. But as with everything in life, things have shifted and changed. Both he and I (at least at this time), want something more like partnered non-monogamy. He said yesterday, "maybe I'm not polyamorous, after all." I don't know. Does this make us poly outcasts?? I kind of view it as everyone needing to be authentic to their own desires as things shift and change over time.

We all change over time, and your view about this is as healthy as it gets, IMO. No, it does not make you "poly outcast" - what would that be? It is a big change from solo poly to partnered life, and it is just fair if one can do solo poly but want to be more on the mono side when partnered. Also, this could be his emotional reaction to all this drama about fluid bonding that you are having right now.

I am absolutely taking people's advice to allow my partner to make his own decision, and then I will make my own decision. But yikes, this is difficult.

Hang in there!
 
Thanks, Nadya. Super helpful. In her view of relationship anarchy, choosing to use condoms with one partner over enough is indicative of hierarchy. So she feels that because everyone "has been tested," therefore, no one should have the need to choose one partner over another.

I think if *everyone* (in this case, all 4 people), do not want hierarchy, then there would need to be a mutual agreement where everyone uses condoms. Or everyone is comfortable with fluid bonding. But the reality is that my partner and I do not share her stance against hierarchy. In his case, he respects that the new partner is spending time much more time with her, including with her child and so forth, whereas my partner doesn't want that level of intimacy with her. It doesn't mean their relationship is not important, but it is less intimate. So for him, using condoms with her is what makes sense. It doesn't make sense to her because they have different philosophies on hierarchy.

Obviously I disagree! I would think RA would mean that everyone establishes their own boundaries and respects others' boundaries, even if they are different. But I can see that there is some logic to her way of thinking. Is it crucial for everyone involved to share the same feelings on hierarchy?
 
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Hold on... I am very fond of the relationship anarchy ideals... but nowhere in the RA manifesto or RA discussions on this forum or what have you have I read about RA meaning being reckless about the health of myself or the people I am involved with. Now I do not buy this "RA means barrier free sex with everyone" thing. This would actually be a huge red flag for me: Never Get Fluid Bonded With This Individual!
Yep, this. To me, this starts to sound a lot like she may have serious entitlement issues that she rationalizes to herself as RA/rejecting hierarchical models. Smells fishy.

I'd be wary about her, too.
 
I agree with those that say that each individual is responsible for their own boundaries/comfort levels when it comes to safer sex.

That being said, my own history is a mish-mash. I ALWAYS used condoms for PIV sex with men, until MrS, 20+ years ago, after unprotected sex with MrS (I was on the pill) I had my first abnormal pap smear (now known to be due to HPV - presumptively contracted from MrS via his ex-GF, SweetPea, luscious little slut that she was:p). I did not use any sort of barrier with the women I have been with (lower-risk but not risk-free).

19 years later I had unprotected sex with Dude, requesting testing "after the fact" (to which he complied) before I would have sexual contact with VV or MsJ (my long-term but sporadic FWBs).

Our household rule is "condoms outside our triad" unless agreed on by everyone. You are fluid-bonded with everyone your partners are fluid-bonded with. Dude tried to press the issue early on when first got together with Lotus - led to a big blow-up. Now, I have NO objections to condoms - doesn't bother me one way or another, but Dude doesn't like them (although used them with me when necessary to prevent pregnancy, not an issue now). So, fine, he wants to go bareback with her, then he will use condoms with me - because I won't put my husband at risk.

Once Lotus, Dude and I had tested negative and Lotus had her vaccinations against HPV (which I already have) the condom rule was lifted. Unfortunately that was not quite the end of the story...I have HSV-1 (as cold sores) which I passed on to Dude (as cold sores) which one of us passed to Lotus (in the genital region). THAT SUCKS! She had one outbreak and is on suppressive therapy (which reduces the risk of outbreaks and transmission).

As it stands now, I am fluid-bonded with MrS, Dude, and Lotus. I would use condoms for penetrative sex with TT if it came to that (which it did, once, for about 7 seconds) - mainly because he has not been vaccinated against HPV, which infection I have (and his wife has been vaccinated against but he has not), but also because I would require that psychological barrier for myself. Dude is fluid-bonded with me and Lotus (and by extension MrS and TT). Lotus is fluid bonded with TT, Dude and me (and, by extension, MrS). MrS is fluid bonded with me - and by extension Lotus,Dude, and TT. (If MrS and Lotus should choose to have sex then no condoms would be "required" by our agreements - up to them.)

Complicated, no?
 
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