Confirming relationship status - The Poly Checkin

I stick with the "verify if things seem suspicious" option. Well, to be honest, it's more like bail if things seem suspicious. My reasons for not wanting to date a cheater are selfish - I don't want the drama, I don't want the kind of relationship where I can't call them when I want to or hold hands in public without worrying. So if I'm getting that vibe I'm not going to stick around, whether they're actually cheating or not. Like the guy who asked me on our first (and only, lol) date to not wear perfume because his wife might smell it. Not worth it, sorry.

I wouldn't deliberately try to cause trouble in someone's relationship. But the notion that I have an obligation to make absolutely sure I'm not inadvertently causing problems... Where does that end?

Is determining cheating vs not cheating really enough? What about couples who have the ridiculous "no feelings" rules? What about couples who are new to poly and may not know how it will truly affect them? Or couples who have shitty communication skills? Sure, you can back off when you realize that stuff, but how different is that from backing off when you realize someone is a cheater? It isn't like poly means no one will get hurt. People get hurt in poly all the time, just skim this board ;)

And then there's the whole "cheaters gonna cheat" argument, which I actually agree with. Not just that if someone can't cheat with Person A, they'll do it with Person B. For me it's more that the infidelity starts when one partner gets to a point where they would cheat if given the chance. If someone is cool with lying to their partner and sneaking around - if they're looking for that or even just saying to themselves, yup, I'd cheat under the right circumstances - the damage is already there.

So I do feel like I have an obligation - but it's an obligation to myself and my current partners, to keep our lives as healthy and positive as possible. Which means dating only people who treat me well and respect my other relationships. I don't think I can take on obligations beyond that.
 
I stick with the "verify if things seem suspicious" option. Well, to be honest, it's more like bail if things seem suspicious. My reasons for not wanting to date a cheater are selfish - I don't want the drama, I don't want the kind of relationship where I can't call them when I want to or hold hands in public without worrying. So if I'm getting that vibe I'm not going to stick around, whether they're actually cheating or not. Like the guy who asked me on our first (and only, lol) date to not wear perfume because his wife might smell it. Not worth it, sorry.

I wouldn't deliberately try to cause trouble in someone's relationship. But the notion that I have an obligation to make absolutely sure I'm not inadvertently causing problems... Where does that end?

Is determining cheating vs not cheating really enough? What about couples who have the ridiculous "no feelings" rules? What about couples who are new to poly and may not know how it will truly affect them? Or couples who have shitty communication skills? Sure, you can back off when you realize that stuff, but how different is that from backing off when you realize someone is a cheater? It isn't like poly means no one will get hurt. People get hurt in poly all the time, just skim this board ;)

And then there's the whole "cheaters gonna cheat" argument, which I actually agree with. Not just that if someone can't cheat with Person A, they'll do it with Person B. For me it's more that the infidelity starts when one partner gets to a point where they would cheat if given the chance. If someone is cool with lying to their partner and sneaking around - if they're looking for that or even just saying to themselves, yup, I'd cheat under the right circumstances - the damage is already there.

So I do feel like I have an obligation - but it's an obligation to myself and my current partners, to keep our lives as healthy and positive as possible. Which means dating only people who treat me well and respect my other relationships. I don't think I can take on obligations beyond that.

These are many of the same reasons I don't date cheaters, as well as the reasons I don't do DADT poly. In addition to just generally preferring to be ethical and only date people who are ethical, I want the freedom for relationships to develop organically, and neither of those models allows that. So, my obligation is to take simple and reasonable steps to help make sure I am not complicit in something that I would consider unethical, or wasting my time on something (DADT, relationships with veto power, couples who have the hidden agenda of a triad, etc, all fall into this category, and all get asked about pretty much right away--or did, until I all but stopped dating married/nested people because it was all too big a PitA and not worth it).
 
So I do feel like I have an obligation - but it's an obligation to myself and my current partners, to keep our lives as healthy and positive as possible. Which means dating only people who treat me well and respect my other relationships. I don't think I can take on obligations beyond that.

We'll the two pretty much go together, something who is already lying and misleading the person who is supposedly the most important person in their lives who have a relationship of some duration, then how can you expect any honestly whatsoever. So they are more likely to lie about things of actual importance like STDs.

Then you get into the potential drama that can spill into your life when they get caught, and they will get caught because eventually the odds will catch up with them. Then you have an angry spiteful spouse striking out at anyone involved in their humiliation. Next thing you know you're exhibit A in their divorce proceedings and so long to your privacy. Or on the most extreme side you have a pissed off spouse gunning for you with an actual gun.

Just a hell of a lot of potential drama.

As to the cheater's gonna cheat argument see previous paragraphs, Yeah you may not be able to prevent them from cheating but at least you don't expose yourself and your other partners to the potential drama from getting involved in that sort of situation.
 
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I promise you that being on the receiving end of the accusation is hell of a lot better than being on the receiving end of infidelity. My policy on married playmates is very straight forward, if you want to be involved with us, you have to be willing to show that you really are in an open relationship. Otherwise I'm going to assume that you are just a cheating moocher.

Now I admit that my own experience makes me particularly sensitive to this issue. And obviously people get to choose to do what they want to do, but tell me how exactly is one to tell the difference between a cheater and someone in a DAD open relationship?

I have been on the receiving end. My first wife cheated on me. Ironically, she was/is monogamous and rejected a suggestion to be poly. But dating someone who is cheating is not being on the receiving end. Also, making incorrect assumptions does nothing but make you feel better at the expense of others.

I do respect your right to conduct your relationships as you see fit. I just can't agree with it. That is based on my own experience as someone who was in a dadt relationship. I did not ennoy the dadt part for several reasons, one being this very thing. I had other reasons as well. So far we have worked out a compromise.

So...does your rule apply to only married couples? What about someone with multiple partners? Would you have to check in with them all?

Personally, I just trust that any potential partner is doing what is right for them. My focus is on the two of us, not so much on their other relationships.

Anything else I have to say was pretty much covered by nycindie's last post.
 
Well gee Vinsanity0 traffic laws don't prevent every accident, I guess that we should just do away all of them and trust people to figure it out.

That's what your argument essentially boils down to. We can't create a system that is perfect so why try to do anything at all.

Since we can't know for certain might as well not even worry about it. At which point the question is do you even care if the person you are involved with is a lying cheat or not. Which is fine if that's your position but I think at that point you have rationalized away any claim to "ethical" nonmonogamy.
 
Personally, I just trust that any potential partner is doing what is right for them. My focus is on the two of us, not so much on their other relationships

Exactly!

My BF and his wife are DADT... It's not what I would choose for myself but we still have a great relationship. If It had kept us from doing overnights, or seeing each other every week, or doing normal dating stuff like kissing goodbye in public, I probably would have ended things. But it would have been because of what was missing from OUR relationship, not how his relationship with his wife is structured.

And that's really how I feel about potential cheaters, too. The kind of relationship I want isn't really compatible with sneaking around. But I don't need to check in with someone's partner(s) to figure out if we are on the same page. I just spend time getting to know them, and if we don't want the same kind of relationship, I'll move on - whether or not I think they're cheating is kind of beside the point.
 
Exactly!

My BF and his wife are DADT... It's not what I would choose for myself but we still have a great relationship. If It had kept us from doing overnights, or seeing each other every week, or doing normal dating stuff like kissing goodbye in public, I probably would have ended things. But it would have been because of what was missing from OUR relationship, not how his relationship with his wife is structured.

And that's really how I feel about potential cheaters, too. The kind of relationship I want isn't really compatible with sneaking around. But I don't need to check in with someone's partner(s) to figure out if we are on the same page. I just spend time getting to know them, and if we don't want the same kind of relationship, I'll move on - whether or not I think they're cheating is kind of beside the point.

This. All of this. So that is my answer to Skex's post above. If my new partner is cheating it will show in the way she conducts herself in our relationship. There is no need to address the rest of that post.

My new motto: Your poly is not my poly, but your poly is ok.
 
I too tend to think it's easy enough to spot the cheaters without going to the trouble of making contact with their SO to confirm. If they're not ok being affectionate in public, if you only ever get invites to their place when their partner is conveniently away, when phone messages get received and ignored in your company, then those are red flags for me. I don't think that the poly community has any more obligation to vet or avoid cheaters than any other relationship demographic to be honest. It's just as easy for a cheater to lie and say they are single or separated, as it is for them to say they are in a DADT or an open relationship. The only difference is, cheaters like to 'match up' with their prospective partner. So if they are trying to date someone in an open relationship, they will say they are in an open relationship too, or if they are trying to date someone single and mono, they will say they are single and mono. Why people assume there are more cheaters or more tolerance of cheating in a poly community than the mono world is beyond me. Really.

I think the previous two posts nail the issue for me. The behaviours and actions that a typical cheater has to do in order to preserve their secret are not compatible with the things I want from a relationship, and so they are easy enough to filter out quite early on. I think it's sad to opt for a strategy of guilty until proven innocent in our interactions with others. I have been on all sides of the cheating triangle in my time: cheated, cheater, and cheated-upon-with. In all honesty, the one that hurt less was cheated-upon-with. When I was cheated on I felt stupid, like I should have known better, like I had failed in some way. When I cheated on someone else, I felt ashamed, guilty, cowardly, and less-than. When I realised that I was dating someone who was probably cheating on a long term partner? I felt like he was an asshole, not worth my time, that I was better off without. None of the negative feelings I had were directed at myself. I was duped just as much as his other partner. So perhaps you could argue that this also plays into a cheater's hands - it really isn't as bad unknowingly being 'the other wo/man', so perhaps I weigh it up in my own mind differently because of that experience. I believe ultimate responsibility for cheating or not lies at the hands of the cheater. Not the cheated on, and not the cheated-upon-with. If you are the kind of person who believes that no cheating could happen without a willing person to cheat-upon-with, then I can see how you might feel differently.

So bottom line: I don't take responsibility for ascertaining that my prospective date isn't a lying cheating scumbag. I take responsibility for picking good partners who tend not to act in shady ways. If I am fooled by a particularly proficient liar, then shame on them, not me. The number of proficient liars out there is few compared to the number of genuine people, so I opt to take people at their word until shown otherwise. To act in any other way (e.g. by demanding confirmation/permission of SO's ahead of time as suggested) would seem to promote the idea that the cheater is not fully responsible for his/her actions. I don't believe that to be the case.
 
I take responsibility for picking good partners who tend not to act in shady ways. If I am fooled by a particularly proficient liar, then shame on them, not me. The number of proficient liars out there is few compared to the number of genuine people, so I opt to take people at their word until shown otherwise. To act in any other way (e.g. by demanding confirmation/permission of SO's ahead of time as suggested) would seem to promote the idea that the cheater is not fully responsible for his/her actions. I don't believe that to be the case.

This x 1000. If someone is cheating, you will notice it in their actions, eventually....usually sooner rather than later. No need to get "permission" (though I am always willing to verify for my partner's other partners.)

As for DADT, I don't really like those and prefer not to be in relationship with people who practice that style of relationship. My partner, Blue's other partner prefers not to hear anything about me. Blue originally agreed but is finding the relationship tedious, as a result. It seems to be rapidly approaching it's expiration point....I think that will happen with most relationships of that nature or cheating relationships...at some point, the cheated with or DADT with partner gets tired of the restrictions it places on their relationship, assuming they're not also cheating on a partner. Jmo
 
Is determining cheating vs not cheating really enough? What about couples who have the ridiculous "no feelings" rules? What about couples who are new to poly and may not know how it will truly affect them? Or couples who have shitty communication skills?

The cheater question seems to be more or less agreed on, but these questions for me are a very good reason to check in with a potential metamour, if I were ever to start a poly relationship again. At least with a married/live-in couple.
I guess a relationship of mine will tend to get close enough for me to come over to his place for an occasional visit at least, so I want to know my metamour at some point, unless I am keeping it very casual. I want to greet her and see, if she really IS okay with me. I think it is both polite and useful. As a primary, I would probably appreciate it too.

I think the ethical question is not only if it is ok to date a cheater, but where does "being okay" start? And what is ethical for you? What if you guess that your metamour is only agreeing to poly as to keep the partner? Would you date a father of a small child, even if his wife is mostly ok with poly, if you figure, that he is partly running away from his responsibilities? Would you date someone, who is possibly looking for an exit to his current relationship?
Are you okay with upsetting a metamour who wants a different relationship model then you and your potential partner (if he decides to upset her)?
 
Why the objection to providing basic confirmation that your partner is indeed aware that they are in aneed open relationship?

Because my husband(s) want(s) nothing to do with you. They are perfectly aware I am poly. They like to keep relationships separate and so do I. It is not their job to make others feel secure in their relationship. They focus upon their relationship with me and not my relationship with other partners.

Actions speak louder than words. If a partner isn't available for overnights, trips away, secretive.. Then move on.
 
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In thinking about it... I've never been asked by any of my partners to provide proof that I'm not cheating, even though three of the four guys I've been involved with weren't polyamorous. With Guy it made sense that he didn't ask, since he met Hubby at the same time he met me, but none of the others have asked to meet or speak with Hubby for any type of confirmation. S2 met Hubby, and Woody now has, but both of those were at *my* request.

I've never asked my partners for confirmation either, but I suppose it's been a bit easier for me to suss out whether someone's cheating, if for no other reason than other than Guy, who was on the road the times I actually saw him during our relationship, I've been to each of my partners' homes and there haven't been any scheduling issues.
 
I think the ethical question is not only if it is ok to date a cheater, but where does "being okay" start? And what is ethical for you? What if you guess that your metamour is only agreeing to poly as to keep the partner? Would you date a father of a small child, even if his wife is mostly ok with poly, if you figure, that he is partly running away from his responsibilities? Would you date someone, who is possibly looking for an exit to his current relationship?
Are you okay with upsetting a metamour who wants a different relationship model then you and your potential partner (if he decides to upset her)?

This is seriously the stuff that keeps me up at night ...

For the most part, I think when someone has that kind of drama or baggage going on, it seeps into all their relationships and makes dating them very unfun. In my experience, anything of that nature has caused me to end things for my own sanity, so I've never had to grapple with the ethics question.

But in the rare case where your partner was a poly Jedi master and could keep your relationship happy and healthy while having issues that serious in his other relationship? I don't have an answer :confused:

Since my BF and his wife are DADT, I wonder a lot about how she would feel if she knew how close we were. He only shares surface level stuff about his marriage with me - what they did for dinner, minor frustrations over kid discipline, that kind of thing. I'm fine with that! And I'm generally fine with her wanting to pretend I don't exist...But there are times it creates issues :cool:
 
Then again, if someone had a rule requiring me to meet their partner, I probably would choose not to get involved because I'd rather that sort of thing happen organically and not be obligatory in order to date someone -- and people who insist on a lot of rules about how they and their partners must conduct adult relationships really turn me off.

I totally understand this stance and I don't disagree with the principle. But my gf's husband had a meet-the-new-partner-before-sexy-times-happen rule, and I obliged. He's diagnosed with severe anxiety and it's no secret that he's got some unhealthy behaviours related to that. But it was much easier to just come over and sit down for coffee than to make a big deal of it. She's great and well worth the minimal effort.
 
Why the objection to providing basic confirmation that your partner is indeed aware that they are in aneed open relationship?

Don't get me wrong I don't think that one should have to develop any sort of relationship or bond but a quick phone call saying 'yeah we're open and I'm ok with it" is a reasonable step to encourage ethical nonmonogamy.

If someone is THAT bent on deception, there's nothing to stop them from getting a conspirator to phone and say the same thing. He could even arrange coffee to meet face-to-face. It proves nothing.

At some point, you have to actually trust what your partners tell you.

I think it all comes down to being secure in knowing yourself and in having a good bullshit detector. In other words, trusting when your gut tells you something is amiss and having the confidence either to question things or to trust in someone.

This. Virtually everyone I know who's ever been cheated on, or experienced some other kind of ongoing deception, had a feeling something was up. They just chose to look the other way because the truth was too painful. Most people aren't very good at deception and lying. Those who are will go to any lengths to do it, and nothing you do can prevent it. Well, you can hire a PI and have them followed 24/7, but if you're that suspicious then you already know your answer.

Like the guy who asked me on our first (and only, lol) date to not wear perfume because his wife might smell it. Not worth it, sorry.

Man I'm such a jerk. If someone ever told me that, I would DOUSE myself in pefume and when I meet them, give them a big hug and rub it all over them. Maybe even slip a "I had fun last night XOX" note in his jacket pocket. Enjoy your divorce, jackass!
 
My husband has no interest in meeting people I date. He met my gf and they happened to get along so he's fine hanging out with her. But when I went out a few times with some guy on OKC, and the guy wanted to meet my husband, hubby wanted nothing to do with it. He only has so many days home from work and he doesn't want to spend them with my boy-toys. I'm sure there's an element of feeling threatened and/or uncomfortable there, but whatever, it's his right to choose who he meets. He's never claimed to be emotionally healthy, so it would be irrational for me to expect otherwise. It's not a reflection on our relationship, his issues are his own. He's a little bit broken but I love him anyway. The last thing he needs is more punishment for the lasting effects of being adopted and abused. I'm sure it's the same, to varying degrees, with most insecure people.

I feel no responsibility for what people tell other people. I'm not their nanny. But I wouldn't knowingly date a cheater because it's a reflection of their overall approach to honesty and openness. It's pure self-interest, not altruism.

I like to think I have a pretty good bullshit detector. Most of us do. The trick is believing those little feelings in the pit of your stomach. Never ignore them, they're there for a reason. Nature spent millions of years and trillions of failed attempts teaching us to pick up on subtle signs of danger. If you ignore them, the consequences are your own fault.
 
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I get that some people would be offended by asking for confirmation of status if it's not otherwise obvious. Those people aren't for me. I don't do blind trust (been there, done that--it didn't end well, obviously), and no, you can't always tell if someone is lying no matter how good one's bullshit detector is. Or, by the time you can, things can already be set up to be fairly drama-laden. Is there a 100% sure-fire way to make sure someone isn't a cheater? No. But, there's no 100% sure-fire way to make sure someone I'm considering sex with doesn't have an STD, either. Yet, I always ask for confirmation of STD status before having sex with someone, and no one seems to think that's weird or cumbersome. It would be just as easy, probably easier, to fake that paperwork than to produce a fake spouse/call; but, that doesn't mean I am not going to ask for it and make a reasonable effort to make sure it's authentic.

To each they're own. As I say, if someone is in a relationship where there can be no cordial, minimal contact between metamours, it's not the relationship for me, anyway (again, I don't need to be friends, but if my lover ends up in the hospital or there is some other type of crises, etc., I prefer to have a cordial relationship with metamours that allows reasonable support of the mutual loved one and reasonable information flow).
 
To each they're own. As I say, if someone is in a relationship where there can be no cordial, minimal contact between metamours, it's not the relationship for me, anyway.

For myself, on this, I agree. Mostly it's just a pain in the butt to have to avoid metamours just because they're uncomfortable or obsessed with privacy. I'm a homebody, and if I'm going to leave my own home for a date, I'd still prefer to hang out at the other person's house than go "out" out. If their partner is all "nobody's allowed over when I'm home" then that's probably going to be more trouble than it's worth.

I have other opinions on privacy in general. First off, it's a joke to think any of us actually have it. Between Apple, Google, Facebook, and your local internet provider, everything we do is tracked in some way or another and it's naive to think otherwise. I would much rather have those intrusions be transparent and public knowledge. It reminds me of when the Allies cracked Enigma, but they had to pretend they hadn't by allowing certain attacks to carry on even though they could have prevented them. I suspect some of that happens today with this whole war on terror thing, that they have to allow some attacks to go on so they don't disclose how much access they really have.

I also think privacy enables horrors like child molestation and partner abuse to go unchecked, because "Mind your own business" socially dominates over "I think what you're doing is wrong." With more open and extensive tracking of online behaviour, child porn rings and sex trafficking would be a whole lot more difficult. Sure some people will still get around it, just like cheaters will get around checks and balances, but many of them just aren't smart enough to figure that out and even a 1% reduction would make a difference.

Lastly, it makes people with so-called "abnormal" predilections feel even more freakish than they have to, e.g. someone who is mildly interested in BDSM but thinks they're the only person in the neighborhood... or a teenager who thinks he's the only gay kid in school, when really he's one of dozens but they're all too scared to come out. If more of what we did behind "closed doors" was open knowledge, there would be a whole lot less taboo, and squeamish people would just have to get the fuck over it.
 
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