Mono Folks Who Are Only Open To Save A Marriage

PurpleSun

New member
So, as I posted in a thread here awhile ago, a couple of summers ago I got involved with a woman in a monogamous marriage whose marriage was only open due to sexual incompatibility. I later learned that, as is the usual case in these scenarios, that there were a lot of underlying issues in the marriage that they were masking by opening it up. Eventually, the woman admitted that she felt like opening things had saved her marriage.

I describe the situation in lengthy detail in my little rant room here.

Anyway, what do you guys think of the mono folks who do this? Personally, this particular situation made me swear off such people, even as FWB's - though in this situation I told this woman what poly meant to me, and that I was looking to be a secondary partner at the time. Initially, she pretty much lied and said she understood, and the truth came out later, and I let it go, but ended it a bit later when things got too weird.

At any rate, is there ever a healthy situation where mono folks are opening things up due to some fundamental flaw in their own relationships that you'd consider getting involved with? Or, is this something you guys just avoid? Personally, after that debacle, I'm in the latter camp, but definitely open to other opinions, and hearing the experiences of others. :)
 
I think Bluebird initially got into poly because of differences in sexual needs. Seems to have worked just fine going by her blog. Though I think she's properly poly to the point of marrying her new partner as well. They live together. So in that sense, her the poly was not as a marriage rescue tool (the marriage sounds fantastic from the word go and didn't seem to need rescuing).

I have considered finding another partner on and off for reasons of having someone close emotionally and physically. Spexy and I are very good together and committed, but sometimes as a single mother, an LDR leaves me pretty lonely and needing someone close. Spexy is frankly fantastic at managing the LD aspect, so it isn't often and I haven't actually done it because I'm not into casual sex at all, and another relationship seems like a lot of work.

Spexy has been very supportive of the idea, but for me, the idea of using a real person to fix issues in our relationship is not particularly appealing. Frankly I don't find our relationship that lacking to begin with. It is just occasional moments of loneliness. I guess for me I need someone to matter enough to me before I'll take on the work a relationship is and don't particularly find the idea dazzling without an actual prospective partner in sight.
 
I think Bluebird initially got into poly because of differences in sexual needs. Seems to have worked just fine going by her blog. Though I think she's properly poly to the point of marrying her new partner as well. They live together. So in that sense, her the poly was not as a marriage rescue tool (the marriage sounds fantastic from the word go and didn't seem to need rescuing).

I have considered finding another partner on and off for reasons of having someone close emotionally and physically. Spexy and I are very good together and committed, but sometimes as a single mother, an LDR leaves me pretty lonely and needing someone close. Spexy is frankly fantastic at managing the LD aspect, so it isn't often and I haven't actually done it because I'm not into casual sex at all, and another relationship seems like a lot of work.

Spexy has been very supportive of the idea, but for me, the idea of using a real person to fix issues in our relationship is not particularly appealing. Frankly I don't find our relationship that lacking to begin with. It is just occasional moments of loneliness. I guess for me I need someone to matter enough to me before I'll take on the work a relationship is and don't particularly find the idea dazzling without an actual prospective partner in sight.

That is really helpful insight, thank you. I was up late thinking about this, because I realized that in the last couple of years, I had let that terrible experience make me reject a lot of people, and was wondering if I was being rigid and rash.

This particular situation was just a seriously rude awakening when it comes to how shitty people can be, and how they can use you. I personally don't believe in opening relationships because of problems. I feel that adding a third person only adds potential instability. But that is me. This is just the kind of response I was hoping for, so, thank you. :)

Stories where it works are great. Right now, I am casually dating 4 women, nothing serious (though one may go away when she ties the knot with a man next month, he doesn't want her to be bisexual anymore once they are married. He's in for a rude awakening, thinking her orientation will change due to marriage, but that's a story/explanation of his ignorance for another day).

But the others are cool, and we're all single and just kinda seeing each other. But I'm 36 and will likely, after I finish my next degree and move to whatever blue state I go to law school in want a primary. Just things to think about, I guess.
 
Well I was in a mono relationship that was initially opened up because I like a thing my wife didn't like. Also, that issue caused some issues with her. It wasn't a band-aid though. We both already knew we could handle having other relationships. We had a great marriage other than that one thing.

The biggest thing I would worry about if I started dating someone in the situation you described is the meta pulling the plug, wanting to go back to mono. Another thing would be if my partner decided they got it out of their system. I didn't get the impression that is what happened with you though.

People do poly differently. For instance, my thing pretty much dictates that I have an intimate relationship with someone. Cat, OTOH, really only wanted FWB type relationships, but good friends. We both had the occasional casual partner as well. It sounds like you just wanted a different thing than Kate wanted. I don't see that as a reason to knock her, but then maybe you left out some things.

It does sound like you had some issues that really had nothing to do with poly. Not everybody is a good match.

A lot of poly people will omit a segment of the population after having a bad experience with a person. I've contemplated swearing off mono people who say they are okay with me being poly. I don't seem to have a good track record with those. But you never know. For now I'll just be a little apprehensive.
 
PurpleSun, I just gave two examples I could think of. I'm not implying that casual sex is not okay. It is just not for me (I don't like being with people much to begin with). I think the bigger question is whether everyone concerned is on the same page. If there are differences in expectations (or if they form with time), then there is a need to discuss before proceeding.
 
PurpleSun, I just gave two examples I could think of. I'm not implying that casual sex is not okay. It is just not for me (I don't like being with people much to begin with). I think the bigger question is whether everyone concerned is on the same page. If there are differences in expectations (or if they form with time), then there is a need to discuss before proceeding.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that casual sex isn't okay! It's totes welcome, I have 4 casual gf's right now, and those relationships are mostly sex. Nothing serious at all.

This just kind of made me rethink a lot of things, and I was looking for opinions. Thanks! :)
 
I've never been in the position of opening a marriage. My poly experience occurred after my mono marriage ended, and the relationship was open from the start. That's my disclaimer ;)

My gut says that opening a relationship just to save it will not work...but opening an otherwise healthy relationship because of a specific mismatch could work (such as vinsanity mentioned.) I think it depends a large part on how self-aware both parties are and how well they communicate. I'd also think if there's a power imbalance in the relationship, especially one that favors the poly or opening partner, that the failure rate would be much higher because the partner with less power is more likely to choose something that is contrary to their goals and happiness. Self-awareness is the crux of it, imo.
 
With very little personal experience to draw on, I would hunk that in most or almost all cases, opening a mono marriage to poly in order to fix the marriage is like having a baby to fix the marriage. In both, you're introducing a third into a couple who only knows how to handle mono-type couple stuff. Going from mono to kink/swinging/BDSM might be different.

There is this guy with a DADT policy that I have to say may have more in keeping with poly than most DADT policies. Wife has a veto amongst other boundaries which makes me feel it's consensual non monogamy. He opened his marriage due to sexual incompatibility.http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=354822#post354822
 
what do you guys think of the mono folks who do this?

I understand it, but I don't want to be in the line of fire.

People who open up a marriage because they want to practice Open? They aren't "saving the marriage" from anything? They probably have a greater chance of success. People who open a marriage to save the mariage/avoid breaking up? That's not really a good reason to Open. It's staving off.

"Relationship broken/breaking up. Add more people" isn't something I want to mess with. I value the (health of the people) over the (relationship shape continuing). I rather see the relationship shape CHANGE than people bend themselves into pretzels trying to preserve it or keep it going. They talk about it in terms of "saving the relationship" but what are they saving it FROM really?

Needed change? :confused:

Whatever their problems? I value my OWN mental health so I don't want to get involved with drama. I rather wait for them to sort themselves out and then eventually date the partner I want to date when they are HEALTHY again. Messing with grieving people isn't my cup of tea. Whether grief from impending divorce or grief from being widowed... they just are not healthy yet. I don't see them as healthy dating partners.

Not bad people. Just not fully healthy right now.

I tend to think of it as the people being in the "denial" stage or the "bargaining" stage in the stages of grief. They are not quite at final acceptance that they need to part ways in order to be healthy individuals. They clutch to "saving the marriage" to cling to the familiar, even if it isn't so hot because the unknown is scary.

Case in point: Some friends of mine dragged out their divorce for several years. Going poly helped them extend the marriage for a while longer. But I don't see what FOR because in that time the quality of the relationship was quite poor. A lot of sniping, hurt feelings, fights, and eventually ramping up to verbal/emotional abuse and just mess.

I guess they just needed it to get horrible before they became more willing to part ways. Because then it was CLEAR that they needed to part ways. Because things at home were HORRIBLE.

When it was at the place of "I'm falling out of love with you" neither was willing to break up then. Because nothing was "that bad" or "that horrible" at home. They got along ok, just that one was no longer in love with or sexually interested in the other.

To me that is spiritual death of the union. They lasted til "death do us part." Just that it wasn't a physical death. When it isn't a temporary disconnect from work or illness or similar? It's a longer, deeper disconnect? When one of them just doesn't have the heart to keep going any more? Why keep it going like "going through the motions?" What's there to save? It's done. Break up and be friends and get on with being good exes and good coparents.

But there's the rub. In the stages of grief... the people are not yet at final acceptance that it IS done. They have to go through the grieving process to arrive there.

And people who want to fight going through the grief process? Aren't going to arrive there fast. It's going to be slow. I've watched these friends erode over almost 5 years because neither wanted to face the writing on the wall. They ended up doing damage to themselves, each other, and people they dated.

Me? When it is ALL hard and I have to pick which hard I have to do? I rather pick breaking up and facing "shorter hard" so I can get to the healing place faster. Rather than deal with "dragging it out hard" and then deal with "breaking up hard." Why do double load? Why postpone my own healing?

I think it is because grief does weird things to people. When they are IN grief, some don't realize that they are postponing their own healing. Especially people who might not have experienced grief before. They may not know themselves well in grief or know how to handle it well. Like... cannot see the forest for the trees. They might not even recognize that they are entering the grieving process.

So I get why they do things in grief like try "relationship broken/breaking up. Add more people" to help stave things off some. They are dealing with complex emotions that they may not be equipped to process well or untangle. A person in the stages of grief? They are not mentally or emotionally well. Deep grief can impair judgement and thinking clearly.

I get that. And I sympathize/empathize. But that doesn't mean I want to jump into the middle of it!:eek:

At any rate, is there ever a healthy situation where mono folks are opening things up due to some fundamental flaw in their own relationships that you'd consider getting involved with? Or, is this something you guys just avoid?

I suppose there might be some. But I cannot think of any that would make me change my mind about getting involved with a grieving person. I rather avoid getting involved with them. I can be there as their friend, but I don't want to date them like that.

It's easier on me to wait for people to sort themselves out and date them later on when they are actually healthy people again.

Galagirl
 
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Galagirl, what you say about the drawn out divorce thing, had me pondering my own. I drew my process out because I thought there were sound logistical life reasons to do it. I wanted everyone to come out the other side "OK." Was worried about finances, there was no consensus about who was keeping house, kids...fighting it out in court could have been scary due to ex's mental problems. It was messy.

And if anyone had wanted to NOT get involved with me then, especially since I was a roommate in the house of a crazy man with guns, I would have understood. Really really. I used to say, "I wouldn't date me right now."

But at the same time, I am so grateful to those who did. Because they were my support network in such a hard time. Just by listening and being kind and loving to me, they made such a difference. If it had not been for them, I think I would have tried to stay in the bad marriage, only because the unknown roll of the dice, that was the alternative, was SCARY to me.

So when you (rhetorically, perhaps) ask, "Why?" in regard to those who draw it out, or try to "save" something... I get it. Especially the long relationships, ending. Because the alternative is entirely unknown and very frightening. Because you are used to having a partner, to keep you together, and imagining them gone from your life feels like you might fly apart at the seams. And because the more afraid a person is, the more apt they are to try and exert whatever control they think they can, over a situation that is getting OUT of the safe control model they are used to.

To speak to the OP, though...

I can only choose my partners on their own merits, but in the time since my breakup with my ex, when I have dated, I have definitely avoided people who seemed like they might bring more drama than I wanted. Someone trying to "save" a troubled marriage by opening, sounds like that. Generally, I had to see it as, "I have heavy life burdens of my own, I cannot consent to take on more." I also avoided those who were not somewhat stable economically, those with addictions, and those with small children. Just stuff I wasn't wanting to bring into my life.
 
I understand it, but I don't want to be in the line of fire.

People who open up a marriage because they want to practice Open? They aren't "saving the marriage" from anything? They probably have a greater chance of success. People who open a marriage to save the mariage/avoid breaking up? That's not really a good reason to Open. It's staving off.

"Relationship broken/breaking up. Add more people" isn't something I want to mess with. I value the (health of the people) over the (relationship shape continuing). I rather see the relationship shape CHANGE than people bend themselves into pretzels trying to preserve it or keep it going. They talk about it in terms of "saving the relationship" but what are they saving it FROM really?

Needed change? :confused:

Whatever their problems? I value my OWN mental health so I don't want to get involved with drama. I rather wait for them to sort themselves out and then eventually date the partner I want to date when they are HEALTHY again. Messing with grieving people isn't my cup of tea. Whether grief from impending divorce or grief from being widowed... they just are not healthy yet. I don't see them as healthy dating partners.

Not bad people. Just not fully healthy right now.

I tend to think of it as the people being in the "denial" stage or the "bargaining" stage in the stages of grief. They are not quite at final acceptance that they need to part ways in order to be healthy individuals. They clutch to "saving the marriage" to cling to the familiar, even if it isn't so hot because the unknown is scary.

Case in point: Some friends of mine dragged out their divorce for several years. Going poly helped them extend the marriage for a while longer. But I don't see what FOR because in that time the quality of the relationship was quite poor. A lot of sniping, hurt feelings, fights, and eventually ramping up to verbal/emotional abuse and just mess.

I guess they just needed it to get horrible before they became more willing to part ways. Because then it was CLEAR that they needed to part ways. Because things at home were HORRIBLE.

When it was at the place of "I'm falling out of love with you" neither was willing to break up then. Because nothing was "that bad" or "that horrible" at home. They got along ok, just that one was no longer in love with or sexually interested in the other.

To me that is spiritual death of the union. They lasted til "death do us part." Just that it wasn't a physical death. When it isn't a temporary disconnect from work or illness or similar? It's a longer, deeper disconnect? When one of them just doesn't have the heart to keep going any more? Why keep it going like "going through the motions?" What's there to save? It's done. Break up and be friends and get on with being good exes and good coparents.

But there's the rub. In the stages of grief... the people are not yet at final acceptance that it IS done. They have to go through the grieving process to arrive there.

And people who want to fight going through the grief process? Aren't going to arrive there fast. It's going to be slow. I've watched these friends erode over almost 5 years because neither wanted to face the writing on the wall. They ended up doing damage to themselves, each other, and people they dated.

Me? When it is ALL hard and I have to pick which hard I have to do? I rather pick breaking up and facing "shorter hard" so I can get to the healing place faster. Rather than deal with "dragging it out hard" and then deal with "breaking up hard." Why do double load? Why postpone my own healing?

I think it is because grief does weird things to people. When they are IN grief, some don't realize that they are postponing their own healing. Especially people who might not have experienced grief before. They may not know themselves well in grief or know how to handle it well. Like... cannot see the forest for the trees. They might not even recognize that they are entering the grieving process.

So I get why they do things in grief like try "relationship broken/breaking up. Add more people" to help stave things off some. They are dealing with complex emotions that they may not be equipped to process well or untangle. A person in the stages of grief? They are not mentally or emotionally well. Deep grief can impair judgement and thinking clearly.

I get that. And I sympathize/empathize. But that doesn't mean I want to jump into the middle of it!:eek:



I suppose there might be some. But I cannot think of any that would make me change my mind about getting involved with a grieving person. I rather avoid getting involved with them. I can be there as their friend, but I don't want to date them like that.

It's easier on me to wait for people to sort themselves out and date them later on when they are actually healthy people again.

Galagirl

I quoted this whole post because it is awesome. I hate the idea of writing people off or judging them, which is why I brought this up after all this time. I like the description re: grieving. That's perfect. That's what it is in the end - they cannot accept that this is a relationship that no longer works/is healthy for those involved.

Of course, conventional poly wisdom dictates you don't open a relationship to save it; in fact, I'd argue that this is pretty much common sense for the most part.

Thanks for this amazingly thoughtful response.
 
With very little personal experience to draw on, I would hunk that in most or almost all cases, opening a mono marriage to poly in order to fix the marriage is like having a baby to fix the marriage. In both, you're introducing a third into a couple who only knows how to handle mono-type couple stuff. Going from mono to kink/swinging/BDSM might be different.

There is this guy with a DADT policy that I have to say may have more in keeping with poly than most DADT policies. Wife has a veto amongst other boundaries which makes me feel it's consensual non monogamy. He opened his marriage due to sexual incompatibility.http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=354822#post354822

Apologies to the OP for going off topic...

I'm not sure why you lump kink/swinging/BDSM all together. Kink and BDSM have nothing to do with swinging. While swinging is usually a couple's exercise, kink and BDSM are not.
 
Apologies to the OP for going off topic...

I'm not sure why you lump kink/swinging/BDSM all together. Kink and BDSM have nothing to do with swinging. While swinging is usually a couple's exercise, kink and BDSM are not.

I agree...and yet not. We've got singles and polyfolk who go to Swingers' Night at the club here. And plenty of couples (LOTS of het couples, which in fact has become annoying to our LGBTQ+ faction) go to the BDSM parties.

The only notable thing to me is that they very rarely overlap. Seems the kink/BDSM stuff weirds out the swingers, and the swingers weird out the kinksters.

Interestingly though, I have met more couples who got a successful rescue/reboot of their troubled marriage, through BDSM/kink, rather than attempting to Open/Poly/swing. I know one couple who are VERY involved in my scene (highly decorated Leather cred and all) who say that they were on the brink of divorce, sleeping in separate rooms and everything. Then they discovered BDSM and gave it "a try." Now they are deeply back in love with a strong Master/slave dynamic in place, and have been for years.

I think part of that is that D/s seems to force people who have become apathetic to one another, who take each other for granted, to PAY ATTENTION. The slave must suddenly be mindful of rules and protocols, for instance, and the Master must be aware of compliance and be prepared to administer discipline. If the slave is feeling ignored, they might "brat" or become deliberately naughty or disobedient, and get attention in the form of punishment. Suddenly there is this increased awareness of your partner's activity in the relationship. Add in there rituals that foster connection, too. If there is anything left worth "saving"...and of course if the people involved have it in them to get enjoyment from BDSM activities...there's potential there to sort of reboot the old marriage in a different format, one, perhaps, that works better for those involved. It's more, I think, if done right, than just throwing in some kink to spice up a boring sex life...but then most people in that lifestyle will know that.

Of course if trust is damaged or the relationship is really at its breaking point, then that won't work.
 
I agree...and yet not. We've got singles and polyfolk who go to Swingers' Night at the club here. And plenty of couples (LOTS of het couples, which in fact has become annoying to our LGBTQ+ faction) go to the BDSM parties.

The only notable thing to me is that they very rarely overlap. Seems the kink/BDSM stuff weirds out the swingers, and the swingers weird out the kinksters.

Interestingly though, I have met more couples who got a successful rescue/reboot of their troubled marriage, through BDSM/kink, rather than attempting to Open/Poly/swing. I know one couple who are VERY involved in my scene (highly decorated Leather cred and all) who say that they were on the brink of divorce, sleeping in separate rooms and everything. Then they discovered BDSM and gave it "a try." Now they are deeply back in love with a strong Master/slave dynamic in place, and have been for years.

I think part of that is that D/s seems to force people who have become apathetic to one another, who take each other for granted, to PAY ATTENTION. The slave must suddenly be mindful of rules and protocols, for instance, and the Master must be aware of compliance and be prepared to administer discipline. If the slave is feeling ignored, they might "brat" or become deliberately naughty or disobedient, and get attention in the form of punishment. Suddenly there is this increased awareness of your partner's activity in the relationship. Add in there rituals that foster connection, too. If there is anything left worth "saving"...and of course if the people involved have it in them to get enjoyment from BDSM activities...there's potential there to sort of reboot the old marriage in a different format, one, perhaps, that works better for those involved. It's more, I think, if done right, than just throwing in some kink to spice up a boring sex life...but then most people in that lifestyle will know that.

Of course if trust is damaged or the relationship is really at its breaking point, then that won't work.

I didn't mean to imply that couples don't have BDSM relationships. I saw it more in the context of having a BDSM relationship outside of the "primary" relationship. Lumping that in with swinging rubbed me the wrong way as if it is not a valid relationship structure in poly.

We used to go to swing clubs occasionally. The scene itself wasn't our thing, but we had a lot of friends into it.
 
Spork said:
But at the same time, I am so grateful to those who did. Because they were my support network in such a hard time. Just by listening and being kind and loving to me, they made such a difference. If it had not been for them, I think I would have tried to stay in the bad marriage, only because the unknown roll of the dice, that was the alternative, was SCARY to me.

I am glad you had support.

I have been that support person for divorcing/open/poly friends in various stages.

I just know that for me? I'm just happier supporting them from a friendship place rather than a dating partner place. I'm willing to be in their support network. I'm not willing to date them just then. That part can wait til later.

Galagirl
 
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Apologies to the OP for going off topic...

I'm not sure why you lump kink/swinging/BDSM all together. Kink and BDSM have nothing to do with swinging. While swinging is usually a couple's exercise, kink and BDSM are not.

Yeah, IMO swinging is not poly, and kink/BDSM has little (read: NOTHING) to do with being inherently polyamorous.

Thanks for the intervene, and no apology needed. I just don't think that opening marriages to save them is a good thing. It's as stupid and unhealthy as "staying together for the kids," and getting married because you're pregnant, and staying because vows are til death do us part, even though we don't even likeeach other anymore, much less love each other. I guess that experience mentioned in the OP opened my eyes quite a bit to the shitty things people do to make dead relationships last, and to the fact that this stuff isn't healthy IMO.
 
Yeah, IMO swinging is not poly, and kink/BDSM has little (read: NOTHING) to do with being inherently polyamorous.

Thanks for the intervene, and no apology needed. I just don't think that opening marriages to save them is a good thing. It's as stupid and unhealthy as "staying together for the kids," and getting married because you're pregnant, and staying because vows are til death do us part, even though we don't even likeeach other anymore, much less love each other. I guess that experience mentioned in the OP opened my eyes quite a bit to the shitty things people do to make dead relationships last, and to the fact that this stuff isn't healthy IMO.

I respectfully disagree if only to say that I would never tell anyone that doing so is stupid, because I think they probably have reasons that seem valid to them. Maybe in hindsight they will regret the choice, maybe not.

But again, my own experience colors my thinking. I was with my ex for 18 years. I was not happy, nor was our relationship healthy, after I'd say...some point year 1 or 2. But nor was it screaming and throwing shit bad. It sucked in a cold, usually passive aggressive way, but with a happy facade for family and kids. I kept all "adult conversations" away from our children. It was hard work, and no it was not fun.

But it was worth it. I will never, ever say it wasn't. I do not wish that we'd split up when it first went sour for us. Because at least my kids had some happy years. After we broke up, several things have come to pass that I expected. We are both struggling financially. He is a broken man in a wretched state of depression. Our kids suffer for not having two loving parents involved properly with them. The ONLY part that is really better (compared to, shall we say, the "lukewarm years") is my love/sex life. And while that is amazing, and I am grateful to have the chance to have a fulfilling love and sex life, my kids were and are more important.

We only broke up because he had a major life crisis and "lukewarm but ok" became "hostage situation at home." He snapped, after he got out of the Army.

I do get annoyed at people saying that a marriage should not be worked on or kept together for the kids (though having a baby into a troubled marriage IS a bad idea)...people have to live their lives as they see fit. If they think that the right thing to do, is to set aside their own needs for their kids, and they can make that work, I respect that. And the reality is, there is NO guarantee that greater happiness lies on the other side of a divorce. NONE. And once you burn that bridge, you are not going back.

My ex was a pain in the ass on a good day. I was not passionate for him, nor in love with him. Ever. But I often miss having a partner, who was as invested in our shared situation as I was, who had my back. I miss having a good name and good credit. I miss knowing that I would be able to give my kids Christmas presents. I miss knowing that if one of us lost a job, the other could probably keep disaster at bay until they found a new one. There is no help for me, no safety net, no family to fall back on, no loans I could take, no resources or assistance for which I qualify. That was never my situation when I was married.

I am ass over teakettle in love with Zen. I adore him. I don't know that I have ever loved one single human being with such intensity and passion. But I would (with sadness but certainty) trade it if I could, to erase the years of madness and keep the "lukewarm" thing going until my kids were grown. You bet your ass I would.
 
I respectfully disagree if only to say that I would never tell anyone that doing so is stupid, because I think they probably have reasons that seem valid to them. Maybe in hindsight they will regret the choice, maybe not.

But again, my own experience colors my thinking. I was with my ex for 18 years. I was not happy, nor was our relationship healthy, after I'd say...some point year 1 or 2. But nor was it screaming and throwing shit bad. It sucked in a cold, usually passive aggressive way, but with a happy facade for family and kids. I kept all "adult conversations" away from our children. It was hard work, and no it was not fun.

But it was worth it. I will never, ever say it wasn't. I do not wish that we'd split up when it first went sour for us. Because at least my kids had some happy years. After we broke up, several things have come to pass that I expected. We are both struggling financially. He is a broken man in a wretched state of depression. Our kids suffer for not having two loving parents involved properly with them. The ONLY part that is really better (compared to, shall we say, the "lukewarm years") is my love/sex life. And while that is amazing, and I am grateful to have the chance to have a fulfilling love and sex life, my kids were and are more important.

We only broke up because he had a major life crisis and "lukewarm but ok" became "hostage situation at home." He snapped, after he got out of the Army.

I do get annoyed at people saying that a marriage should not be worked on or kept together for the kids (though having a baby into a troubled marriage IS a bad idea)...people have to live their lives as they see fit. If they think that the right thing to do, is to set aside their own needs for their kids, and they can make that work, I respect that. And the reality is, there is NO guarantee that greater happiness lies on the other side of a divorce. NONE. And once you burn that bridge, you are not going back.

My ex was a pain in the ass on a good day. I was not passionate for him, nor in love with him. Ever. But I often miss having a partner, who was as invested in our shared situation as I was, who had my back. I miss having a good name and good credit. I miss knowing that I would be able to give my kids Christmas presents. I miss knowing that if one of us lost a job, the other could probably keep disaster at bay until they found a new one. There is no help for me, no safety net, no family to fall back on, no loans I could take, no resources or assistance for which I qualify. That was never my situation when I was married.

I am ass over teakettle in love with Zen. I adore him. I don't know that I have ever loved one single human being with such intensity and passion. But I would (with sadness but certainty) trade it if I could, to erase the years of madness and keep the "lukewarm" thing going until my kids were grown. You bet your ass I would.
They might have their reasons, but that doesn't make it a smart thing to do. It isn't, period. I know it doesn't feel good, but I call it like I see it.

I'm sorry you wasted so much of your life on a relationship that you were unhappy in, and that you felt that it was the only option. I can't imagine. Then again, I don't have kids and I don't want them, so there's that as well.

I'd also argue that children know more than you think they know. Keeping "adult conversations" out of earshot does not mean that they don't know that their parents are unhappy. Quite the opposite, usually. My father had a huge gambling problem and was a chain smoking alcoholic. My parents had huge financial problems and they were miserable. I knew all of this through my own snooping and perception. I remember being 10 years old and wishing they'd get a divorce.

I bet your kids know a lot more than you think regarding those hard years you thought you were giving them a good time.

Anyway, I'm sorry life has been hard, and I hope you are happy now.
 
Kids definitely are more perceptive than we think. I stayed too long in my marriage, thinking it was best for the kids. I did not realize the extent of the problems that staying caused until we were all in counseling. My oldest told me that he prayed every night for years that I would leave his father. They have worked through their issues; however, my middle kid does not have much of a relationship with his father. I can probably count the number of times he's seen him in the last four years on both hands. I regret staying. But that's just my story.

My personal opinion is that any choice made primarily out of fear or obligation, and not from a place of self awareness, has a higher than average chance of not being the best choice. That's why I think opening just to save a marriage is not likely to work. And yet, I realize that for some, it may work. The communication that's needed to open in a healthy manner can definitely increase intimacy so I can see how it could maybe work for some.
 
Kids definitely are more perceptive than we think. I stayed too long in my marriage, thinking it was best for the kids. I did not realize the extent of the problems that staying caused until we were all in counseling. My oldest told me that he prayed every night for years that I would leave his father. They have worked through their issues; however, my middle kid does not have much of a relationship with his father. I can probably count the number of times he's seen him in the last four years on both hands. I regret staying. But that's just my story.

My personal opinion is that any choice made primarily out of fear or obligation, and not from a place of self awareness, has a higher than average chance of not being the best choice. That's why I think opening just to save a marriage is not likely to work. And yet, I realize that for some, it may work. The communication that's needed to open in a healthy manner can definitely increase intimacy so I can see how it could maybe work for some.

ALL OF THIS, so much. To this day, I still bear the effects of the bullshit that went on in my parents' marriage. The only thing that saved my father from himself was a stroke. My mother's entire life has been doing things out of obligation, usually to disastrous results, and yet she continues.

And yeah everyone's stories are different, but usually the end result is the same: Unhappy parental units are clueless as to what kids know, and the kids secretly want their parents to split just to end the pain and turmoil, no matter what it takes.
 
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