What did I do wrong? Or did I?

DebbieandRay

New member
This morning, around 3:45AM my husband got up to use the bathroom, then I had to go. I asked Ray if he wanted to play a little before we fell back to sleep. He said, "sure."

Ray got himself up and we did what I call the lazy X. In this position I can put my leg over his and he can actually get in me, and neither of of has to do much but enjoy. So, we make love. Afterward I asked Ray why he hadn't kissed me or hugged me? And that it was just sex. I told Ray that I didn't want to be someone that he just considered someone to get off with.

After that Ray and I didn't talk. Ray got out of bed to have a smoke and then returned to bed, facing away from me and fell asleep.

What concerns me is that when he was with his ex, She had said to Ray once, "Why can't you love me without having to have sex with me?" And that took care of that. Ray and his ex didn't have sex from then on, for several years. To Ray that meant that if he loved her he would never want sex with her.

I don't want that to happen to me, or with me and Ray. That is actually a big fear for me.


Should I have not said anything?
Should I have asked for hugs and kisses?
Is it wrong to want him to do these these without me asking him to?

(A little back ground) When Roy was over the other day, Ray mentioned that me and Roy deep kissed for a long time. I told Ray that I love deep kissing. Ray mentioned that I deep kiss with everyone but him. I reminded Ray that years ago he had told me that I wasn't good at it. So, we don't do it, even though I love deep kissing, and do it with everyone else.

And yes, I will bring this up on Thursday at our therapist's office.
 
Yes, I think your therapist will have some better insight into this.

My initial thought was that Ray may have taken it as criticism that he wasn't doing it "right." Perhaps he was tired, not really in the mood, but was happy to be there with you. Perhaps he was stressed about work. Perhaps he was already feeling disconnected from you. Who knows? It doesn't sound like he's always this way - in fact, he has been touching you quite a bit when he massages you. Instead, can you hug and kiss him during sex?

I know I would feel hurt if I was told that I wasn't good at kissing. And I'd ask my partner what I could do differently to improve with them.

I think the bigger concern is how you two aren't able to communicate in a way that leaves you feeling better and Ray able to stay present/not shut down. It feels more about the way the discussion went, rather than the content. Usually when I feel disconnected from my partners, I'll try to open up a conversation asking them what was going on between us, what might be contributing to me feeling disconnected, rather than focusing on something they didn't do right. It's a problem in the interaction, not something he just didn't do.

Hope that counseling continues to go well.
 
Some guys just aren't into that. My ex and I made out in the beginning but that tapered off and then he never tongue kissed me any more, which I need to feel intimate.

The communication breakdown is concerning
 
I was just thinking about this! Seems like the guys in my life only like kissing during courtship phase, and they aren't that into it once they can just go directly to second, etc..

Whereas the women I've been with wanted to make out no matter how long the relationship lasted.
 
I'll take the devil's advocate position here to say that some guys, at 3:45 in the morning, can't really think straight. I've apparently had entire conversations that I don't recall, made decisions about the next day that make no sense, etc.

It may be the same thing; the early wake-up made him not quite think straight and he just didn't consider hugs and kisses.

My suggestion: Tell him, point-blank, that you want to hug and kiss him. Before bedtime, while he's still not-sleepy. Let him think about it while he's alert.
 
Yes, I think your therapist will have some better insight into this.

My initial thought was that Ray may have taken it as criticism that he wasn't doing it "right." Perhaps he was tired, not really in the mood, but was happy to be there with you. Perhaps he was stressed about work. Perhaps he was already feeling disconnected from you. Who knows? It doesn't sound like he's always this way - in fact, he has been touching you quite a bit when he massages you. Instead, can you hug and kiss him during sex?

I know I would feel hurt if I was told that I wasn't good at kissing. And I'd ask my partner what I could do differently to improve with them.

I think the bigger concern is how you two aren't able to communicate in a way that leaves you feeling better and Ray able to stay present/not shut down. It feels more about the way the discussion went, rather than the content. Usually when I feel disconnected from my partners, I'll try to open up a conversation asking them what was going on between us, what might be contributing to me feeling disconnected, rather than focusing on something they didn't do right. It's a problem in the interaction, not something he just didn't do.

Hope that counseling continues to go well.

I thank you for your response.

I know we haven't communicated well the whole time Ray and I have been together. And I have wanted us to be more able to communicate on the same level. And I am hoping that counseling will help both of us in that area.

Ray does shut down easily, and sadly my son has learned that from him as well. I could tell as soon as I said something this morning that he shut down. I didn't tell him I wanted sex. I offered it to him. And while he was working at getting himself able to have sex with me, I kept telling him not to worry about it, but he kept on until we were able to make love.

The funny thing is that with Roy there is always foreplay and after play. With Ray there never really has been. Ray rarely kisses me while we are making love, whereas Roy and my other lovers always do.

I love Ray and Roy equally. And I know they are two different people. And until recently I didn't mind that Ray and I didn't deep kiss or even just kiss while we made love. Now it's important to me, and I want that from Ray.

I thought after Ray left this morning that he is the only man I have get ready for me, himself, whereas I either don't need to help other men get ready, or I do help them, in some way to be ready for me and intercourse. I need to work on that as well, I think.

Again, thank you for your response.

I just have to keep working at this.
 
Some guys just aren't into that. My ex and I made out in the beginning but that tapered off and then he never tongue kissed me any more, which I need to feel intimate.

The communication breakdown is concerning

It concerns me as well.

Although my husband is divorced from his ex-wife, they do still get together at times. And they still deep kiss. Ray has said that he and his ex have always deep kissed, and he likes to deep kiss.

I spoke with Rays ex a few days ago, and she said that she and Ray often had trouble communicating. Yet, since they have been divorced, they seem to communicate better than when they were married.

The one thing that Ray's ex did find odd is what I have done, and did this morning. I have Ray get himself hard when we have sex, whereas, I don't do that with other men. And I am not sure why that is.
 
I was just thinking about this! Seems like the guys in my life only like kissing during courtship phase, and they aren't that into it once they can just go directly to second, etc..

Whereas the women I've been with wanted to make out no matter how long the relationship lasted.

The thing with me and Ray is that even when he shaves me, he doesn't see it as sexual. When I ask him if he wants sex with me, he says, "Sure." When I go to bed and tell him I want him, he takes his time joining me. Ray has never said no to me as far as having sex with me, either.

The thing about second base is that he doesn't try to get to second base. He has never been interested in my breasts, but he will massage them when he massages me. I asked Ray what about me turned him on. His response was, after he thought about it, "That you love me and that you love me enough to love me in my love language."

Ray doesn't ask or try to get sex with me, 1st, 2nd or third base even. If I never brought it up to him, we would never make love. Ray has never seemed to like sex, at least doing it. And he has always hated getting off. He doesn't like to ejaculate or orgasm. It shows in his face, his body language and he has told me so.

When Ray and I do make love, he is very mechanical. There is really no passion. He is good at what he does with what he has, but he is very predictable, and it is often not very enjoyable because of that. Too often I feel that Ray makes love to me only because I ask him to. I know that if I never asked him to, he never would.
 
I'll take the devil's advocate position here to say that some guys, at 3:45 in the morning, can't really think straight. I've apparently had entire conversations that I don't recall, made decisions about the next day that make no sense, etc.

It may be the same thing; the early wake-up made him not quite think straight and he just didn't consider hugs and kisses.

My suggestion: Tell him, point-blank, that you want to hug and kiss him. Before bedtime, while he's still not-sleepy. Let him think about it while he's alert.

I want to thank you for your advice.

The thing is that when we have had live-in lovers, they woke me up at that time of morning and made love to me. Ray has always said that he could never do that, especially if I was sound asleep. Ray has said that it turned him on when ever it happened, but that he could never do that, even though I told him I like when it happens.

Ray has this thing about not wanting to be a bother, or asking for too much. It has never sank in with Ray that what I do with other men, he can do with me as well. He is my husband , for God's sake.

The other day, when Roy was over, Ray didn't seem to care what Roy and I were doing. And usually Ray likes to watch. That time he ate lunch instead.

Ray is not like other men, in so many ways. When we got together he was so into me, he bathed me, and he still does. He massaged me, and he still does. Ray does anything he can to try to make me happy, even when what he does doesn't make me happy.

When I started my other thread, my question was why my husband, Ray, couldn't be more sexual or passionate, I guess.

Ray was awake this morning. He laid there with his eyes open for some time. We just didn't talk, and he layed on the far side of the bed from me.

I know that counseling will get us to the bottom of our problems, but in time. I am trying to figure out what I can do in the mean time to make things better for both of us.
 
I am constantly amazed at women's choices in men and how much they are willing to put up with because they are in love. My wife and I are married over 40 years and 38 of those years was spent sharing a girlfriend. We all enjoyed kissing and fondling. We rarely just had sex and to this day, we do not enjoy sex without making love. If we cannot at least kiss, it is not the same. That is love. I know a lot of guys who just want sex and do whatever they can to get it. You deserved a man who loves you with a burning passion and hates to even be away from you. A man who puts your needs and wants ahead of his. You do not want a man who wants you for sex, meals and clean clothes. There are too many guys like that out there.
 
Afterward I asked Ray why he hadn't kissed me or hugged me? And that it was just sex. I told Ray that I didn't want to be someone that he just considered someone to get off with.

Maybe next time, just ask for what you want. Don't ask why he didn't do something. If you want him to hug you, say "Please hug me". If you not getting enough kisses, initiate some yourself. Sometimes I like the kisses and other times not so much. Both my husband and I tend to be submissive in bed, which causes quite a few issues :rolleyes:, but if I need more kisses, sometimes I just have to initiate it myself.

There was a time during sex, when I was trying to tell the husband what I wanted and he said "just go with it", for years after that I never said anything again about what I needed, including when it started to hurt. I would just "go with it" until I just couldn't bear it any longer and then things would come to a crashing halt. Things said during sex can hurt very deeply, especially at weird hours of the night when the brain may not be fully functional.

This too is an area where I think the counselor can help you guys heal some old wounds and help you communicate better. Do some research on "non-violent" communication as it will give you a better understanding how to stay away from confrontational/negative forms of communication and show you positive/non-aggressive ways to say the same thing and get a much better outcome.
 
Debbie,
You seem to place so many expectations on Ray and how sex with him is "supposed to" be!

You asked Ray if he wanted to "play a little" before you both went back to sleep. To me, that sounds like you just wanted to fool around a bit and have a quickie. Nothing wrong with quickie morning sex - and it sounds like that is exactly what Ray gave you. But then you criticized him for not kissing and holding you, as if it was supposed to be a romantic, intensely passionate love-making session!

But no - first of all, you phrased it like you only wanted a little romp. It was the morning, complete with bedhead and morning breath, you both had just peed, and you acknowledged that you were going to go back to sleep afterwards. That doesn't sound like an invitation to passionate lovemaking - it sounds like you only wanted a quick fuck while you had time before you really had to wake up and get out of bed. Yet you were disappointed that the quick fuck didn't turn into something grand like in a romance novel. You were unnecessarily critical towards him about that.

You got what you asked for! You then expected more, but did not tell him. I agree with SNeacail that if you want something that you have to ask for it specifically instead of pouting and blaming when you don't get it.

I think you owe Ray an apology.
 
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Agreeing with the others who have said you have to ASK for what you want.

Ray isn't a mind reader. He gives you what you say you want. If you don't say you want hugging and kissing, it might not occur to him to give that to you.

That doesn't mean he doesn't love you, or that he doesn't want to hug and kiss you. It means you've asked for something that *doesn't* include hugging and kissing (for example, "playing a little"), and to him, that means you don't *want* hugging and kissing.

From what you've said about Ray, he's very passive sexually. That means he is probably not going to take the initiative to try something you haven't specifically said you want. And if you want something you know he doesn't usually do, like deep kissing, it is not fair for you to expect him to suddenly do it. He's used to not doing it. He's used to believing you don't want him to do it. And you KNOW he is not an aggressive or assertive man sexually, so expecting him to take initiative is expecting him to behave in a way completely opposite to the way you know he is. How is that fair?

Use your words. Speak to Ray. Tell him clearly and specifically what you want from him, both during discussions outside the bedroom *and* while you and he are interacting sexually. If you're fooling around and you want him to deep kiss you, SAY SO. Or, like SNeacail said, KISS HIM instead of waiting for him to kiss you.
 
Debbie,
You seem to place so many expectations on Ray and how sex with him is "supposed to" be!

You got what you asked for! You then expected more, but did not tell him. I agree with SNeacail that if you want something that you have to ask for it specifically instead of pouting and blaming when you don't get it.

I think you owe Ray an apology.

Last night, me and Ray talked. I did tell Ray that I had been childish. I was being a childish little girl who wanted what she wanted and went about it the wrong way, and I did expect too much of him.

I knew that I didn't ask Ray for what I wanted, and I was childish, in a big way.

I did tell Ray that I was in the wrong, and hopefully I won't do that again.
 
Maybe next time, just ask for what you want. Don't ask why he didn't do something. If you want him to hug you, say "Please hug me". If you not getting enough kisses, initiate some yourself. Sometimes I like the kisses and other times not so much. Both my husband and I tend to be submissive in bed, which causes quite a few issues :rolleyes:, but if I need more kisses, sometimes I just have to initiate it myself.

There was a time during sex, when I was trying to tell the husband what I wanted and he said "just go with it", for years after that I never said anything again about what I needed, including when it started to hurt. I would just "go with it" until I just couldn't bear it any longer and then things would come to a crashing halt. Things said during sex can hurt very deeply, especially at weird hours of the night when the brain may not be fully functional.

This too is an area where I think the counselor can help you guys heal some old wounds and help you communicate better. Do some research on "non-violent" communication as it will give you a better understanding how to stay away from confrontational/negative forms of communication and show you positive/non-aggressive ways to say the same thing and get a much better outcome.

I found this on a web site; "Needs have a special meaning in NVC (Non Violent Communication): They are common to all people and not tied to any particular circumstance or strategy for fulfilling them. So, wanting to go to a movie with someone is not a need, and a desire to spend time with a specific person is not a need. The need in that case might be companionship. You can meet your need for companionship in many ways, not just with that specific person and not just by going to a movie."

That makes sense to me. The other night I got what I asked for, and had I wanted more, I could have asked for it, or got with someone else later who would have naturally did what I wanted, without me asking.

I have a lot of work to do. I know that.

The same web site I looked at said, "Ask clearly and specifically for what you want right now, rather than hinting or stating only what you don't want." And I agree. Ray is a lot like that, in that he hints a lot, or too subtly. That is why we are going to counseling.

I do have Roy and Scott and Tom in my life as well. I know Ray doesn't have to, and often can't, fulfill all of my needs. I am working on knowing my needs and how to get them met. I am also working on not being so negative toward Ray. Things are not going to change over night, though.
 
Hi Deb,

Re (from DebbieandRay):
"Should I have not said anything?"

It's not *what* you say, it's *how* you say it.

Re:
"Should I have asked for hugs and kisses?"

Yes, I think so.

Re:
"Is it wrong to want him to do these things without me asking him to?"

It's erroneous to expect him to do those things without telling him to do them. He may assign a different value to hugs and kisses than you do, and no matter much he loves you, he can't read your mind. You have to tell him. He needs you to tell him. Preferably before/during the encounter, but even after at least gives him something to go on for next time.

I would also suggest that if you want hugs and kisses, the best/easiest way to get them is to hug and kiss him. Then he will reciprocate, and if you do it a lot, he'll be more likely to feel encouraged to initiate hugs and kisses himself.

I guess I would talk to him as well -- being careful not to imply that he's a failure or loser as a husband, but rather just telling him that you would like hugs and kisses during sex, and then ask him if he'd be willing to do that. But even if he says yes, there's a good chance he'll forget to do it at first. It has to become a habit before he'll remember.

Re (from DebbieandRay):
"I asked Ray what about me turned him on. His response was, after he thought about it, 'That you love me and that you love me enough to love me in my love language.'"

Just curious -- What is his love language? (I know of five possible languages.)

Re:
"Ray has never seemed to like sex, at least doing it. And he has always hated getting off. He doesn't like to ejaculate or orgasm. It shows in his face, his body language and he has told me so."

Either some kind of trauma or guilt-tripping in his past has caused this, or it is also possible that he is (was born) asexual. Your therapist may need to dig a little to unravel that one.

Re:
"Too often I feel that Ray makes love to me only because I ask him to. I know that if I never asked him to, he never would."

Have you talked to him about that? If so, what was his response?

Re (from DebbieandRay):
"The thing is that when we have had live-in lovers, they woke me up at that time of morning and made love to me. Ray has always said that he could never do that, especially if I was sound asleep. Ray has said that it turned him on whenever it happened, but that he could never do that, even though I told him I like when it happens."

I'm under the impression that Ray has an extreme phobia about waking you up. Does that sound accurate?

I know that you and Ray can't get the kind of marriage you want overnight, you'll have to work on it a little at a time, with continued help from your counselor.
 
In response to Quote:
"I asked Ray what about me turned him on. His response was, after he thought about it, 'That you love me and that you love me enough to love me in my love language.'"

Just curious -- What is his love language? (I know of five possible languages.)


Ray's love language is acts of service. Ray feels most loved, and his love tank is filled, when I am intimate with other men. I am am performing a service for Ray when I am intimate with other men.

You said, "Either some kind of trauma or guilt-tripping in his past has caused this, or it is also possible that he is (was born) asexual. Your therapist may need to dig a little to unravel that one."

I don't think that Ray is sexual because he does get sexually excited when he sees me with other men, either sexual or just intimate.

When I said, "Too often I feel that Ray makes love to me only because I ask him to. I know that if I never asked him to, he never would." in my post, you asked, "Have you talked to him about that? If so, what was his response?"

We have talked about this, at length. When Ray's ex asked him, many years ago, "Why can't you love me without having to have sex with me?" Ray decided that day that sex was not loving. And to show his love, he never wanted sex again. He even saw other men as lesser than him if they did have sexual desires. Ray actually takes pride in not wanting or asking for sex.

You said, "I'm under the impression that Ray has an extreme phobia about waking you up. Does that sound accurate?" You are accurate, to a point. Ray puts a lot of value on sleep because that is something his ex did a lot of.
Me, on the other hand, I have always been a light sleeper and found it very erotic to be woken up for sex. Ray can't bring himself to do what I have loved other men doing for years now.
 
I was being a childish little girl who wanted what she wanted and went about it the wrong way, and I did expect too much of him.

I knew that I didn't ask Ray for what I wanted, and I was childish, in a big way.

I did tell Ray that I was in the wrong, and hopefully I won't do that again.

That's awesome that you could admit a mistake. We all, do, but it's hard to swallow our pride and admit it.

You of course weren't "expecting too much," to want hugs and kisses. It was just unfair to not ask, and then get mad at him :)

Feeling better now? :)
 
Thanks for your new post here Deb, it gives me a better picture of Ray and what motivations are driving him. I think he'll definitely need the therapist's help to undo the damage his ex did when she put him down for wanting sex. Although I suspect he was already overly vulnerable to that message because of abuse he had suffered long before then.

You can of course assure Ray that you aren't his ex and don't feel like his ex about things, but it would probably take a lot of trust for Ray to deeply believe you and I am thinking he has trust issues per se.

In the meantime, the best you can do is to give him very specific instructions. He does seem to be responsive to that kind of approach.
 
In the meantime, the best you can do is to give him very specific instructions. He does seem to be responsive to that kind of approach.

Ray does try to get me to mother him and always tell him what to do, but I am not his mother. I am his wife.

I did notice tonight, when we took my son to McDonalds, that Ray is a whiner, and does act like a little boy, often. Ray pointed out a small boy who had fallen out of the playland and looked at him. The little boy wasn't hurt or crying until his older brother came to him, Then the little boy started crying. I told Ray that the little boy was wanting attention. Then I mentioned how Ray, when he found that the catsup dispenser was empty, had said, like a little boy, "They're out of catup." Ray was actually pouting.

I had friends point this out to me a few years ago, but I never saw it like I did tonight. Ray is very much like a little boy, in so many ways. Having this come together like this tonight has given me a lot to think about.
 
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