Guidelines & Boundaries vs. Rules: Merged Threads, General Discussion

I think what I'm still struggling with is the concept that other people have that much impact on our couple rules. I know that sounds horrible and unfair but I think that's where I am and honesty is a big part of me... so I have to be honest here... I never considered how other people would be able to impact on our rules and boundaries for THEIR comfort level... so complex here...
 
Well, there is much more merging in poly than swinging (I started a thread on merging once, I wonder if that would help). The emotional component is a much larger and important component than sex. The depth and connection is perhaps more as a result, I don't know. Swinging doesn't involve love; in fact saying "I love you" is quite often a firm rule. In poly love comes first. Its not a friendship with sex on the side, its a romance, a love affair. Its partnership. Much different.
 
Well, there is much more merging in poly than swinging (I started a thread on merging once, I wonder if that would help). The emotional component is a much larger and important component than sex. The depth and connection is perhaps more as a result, I don't know. Swinging doesn't involve love; in fact saying "I love you" is quite often a firm rule. In poly love comes first. Its not a friendship with sex on the side, its a romance, a love affair. Its partnership. Much different.

I think the thread on merging would be good I will go try to find it.

its the emotional component that's wrecking my husband. His stability and his comfort is sorely challenged at this point.

Again, what has led me here is that I have started to have feelings for J... feelings that I did not expect... feelings that I am not sure of what they are or where they are going.... and I don't know how to deal with that...

our rules are now having to change. we never had to have the "I love you" rule... we never had to have the "no overnights" rule... none of those things were ever issues...

everything is so UNSETTLED right now... and all I keep hearing is
"rules are made to be broken"

emotions are running high in all aspects of our lives right now...
 
Its great you are doing so much work. Trying to remember there is no rush might help. Get used to each step before moving forward, there is lots of time and adjusting will make things a lot more comfortable I think.
 
Its great you are doing so much work. Trying to remember there is no rush might help. Get used to each step before moving forward, there is lots of time and adjusting will make things a lot more comfortable I think.


and that my dear redpepper is one of the best things i've heard. I guess I do tend to rush things... slowly every so slowly...

I did find your thread on merging... and it did help! you are very very kind and helpful and I truly appreciate it.
 
boundaries - when are they ethical, when aren't they

Hi everyone,

I'd like your opinions on a major discussion point between my poly wife and mono me. The question is about boundaries:

When is it acceptable to unilaterally set a boundary? Where does this change from 'asking for respect for a personal preference/problem/value/issue' to 'denying the other person to fully express his- or herself'?

Opinions?

robin
 
and to answer my own question:

When setting a boundary, I think you need to balance the comfort you give up for yourself with the freedom you take away for the other. Very important is that these things should be valued by the persons to whom they apply. E.g. when setting a boundary for my partner, I should be the one that values the comfort I have to give up, but my partner should be the one to value the freedom that she has to give up. Only after communicating very clearly can you ensure these are balanced.

As long as there is balance, the boundary is ethical. When I try to take away too much freedom, or when I have to give up too much comfort, one of the partners gets an unfair deal.

(Since this answer is not working for the relationship I'm in, I'd like to hear others, so I can learn something.)

Thanks!

robin
 
As long as there is balance, the boundary is ethical. When I try to take away too much freedom, or when I have to give up too much comfort, one of the partners gets an unfair deal.

(Since this answer is not working for the relationship I'm in, I'd like to hear others, so I can learn something.)
This^ I would suggest that if its not working then you aren't finished negotiating... of course NRE can get in the way for a good long time so that boundary might have to be negotiated constantly. No biggy, just sit down and get comfy with that.

Relationships in general are a series of negotiations. Poly isn't different just more intense and negotiations happen more often. It seems like too much at the beginning I think, but in time, and with practice, the communication flows. Comfort comes when there is a solid foundation to work from. To me this why poly foundations are so important. We wrote a thread on that, but to me they are respectful communication, integrity, empathy and honesty.
 
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This^ I would suggest that if its not working then you aren't finished negotiating...

Thank you redpepper. This is very true. The reason I started this thread was that we have trouble negotiating. I have the feeling that whenever I ask for a boundary, or demand one, I am being accused of unethically holding back my partner. I hear arguments like 'This is just the way I am', 'I want the freedom to express my feelings', 'You are controlling my life' whenever the subject of boundaries (or even just taking things slow, for that matter) comes up. I have one big need that is not getting met, and that is time to adjust. I don't mean time where nothing happens, but I do mean time where not everything is happening all at once.

But to get back on the topic: the fundamental difference in our (my partners and mine) opinions is the question of when a boundary is ethical and when it isn't.
 
In my view, not everything is negotiable. Those things that are not negotiable - I tend to call those things "needs" - are what I use to set boundaries. Those things that are negotiable - I call them "wants" - are used in the give and take to complete whatever the contract is.

I work hard to separate my needs from my wants. The only thing that would make my needs unethical is if they were generally unethical (e.g., called for murder, inflicting intentional harm, etc.).

So, if my needs themselves aren't unethical with respect to setting boundaries, then it is how I handle those needs that might make them unethical. For example, if I hid them while acting upon them and used those needs as an excuse for breaking the rules of a particular agreement.

The trick to remain in your integrity is to communicate those needs as early as reasonable and set the relationship on that solid ground. Selfishness doesn't come into the picture - as if our respective needs are incompatible, the relationship never starts or develops beyond the initial exploration stage.
 
Thank you redpepper. This is very true. The reason I started this thread was that we have trouble negotiating. I have the feeling that whenever I ask for a boundary, or demand one, I am being accused of unethically holding back my partner. I hear arguments like 'This is just the way I am', 'I want the freedom to express my feelings', 'You are controlling my life' whenever the subject of boundaries (or even just taking things slow, for that matter) comes up. I have one big need that is not getting met, and that is time to adjust. I don't mean time where nothing happens, but I do mean time where not everything is happening all at once.

But to get back on the topic: the fundamental difference in our (my partners and mine) opinions is the question of when a boundary is ethical and when it isn't.

Based on what you're saying, I wouldn't call your needs unethical - even if they do infringe on someone else's needs. But, you may be running into a core incompatibility - if what you're struggling with is actually a need and isn't masking something else more fundamental.

It seems that when something conflicts with our own values we all too easily accuse someone else of being unethical. When in reality, differences in core values are a relatively common occurance. It is possible, with re-examination, for us to challenge and subsequently change our core values. But, it's a low probability event. I wouldn't bet on such a thing.

If I were in your position, I would try to unravel these issues so that I can get beyond the language of "your needs for certain boundaries are unethical."
 
It seems that when something conflicts with our own values we all too easily accuse someone else of being unethical. When in reality, differences in core values are a relatively common occurance. It is possible, with re-examination, for us to challenge and subsequently change our core values. But, it's a low probability event. I wouldn't bet on such a thing.

I like how you have written this. Too many people forget that our values can be changed and not everything we think we need is actually a "need", most of the time it's a want, especially in relationships.

The best way to know whether a boundary or whatever is going to work is to see if it's logical or not. If someone can present a coherent, logical argument on why they don't or do want something then I'll listen. If all they give me is "I feel like this" then I'm less likely to consider it until they have had time to think more about it. This is how you grow, this is how you move past your old childhood issues and reprogram yourself into a better human. And I question myself like this also.

"Feeling" is a weak way to explain something. If they told you "I've just got this feeling that we'll win the lottery next week so let's use the mortgage payment for a big screen TV" you wouldn't be like "ok honey".
 
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I'm not sure I can go along with that analogy. Sometimes we need something and there may not be a rational reason why. I'm all for being logical and coherent but relationships and human beings can't always be quantified and rationalized. Feeling is not weaker than logic, it's just different. There also is a difference between stupidity and feeling. There is just as much idiotic, incorrect logic out there as there are stupid actions based on feelings. For instance, if you are a musician, and all you have is logic, your music may have great technical proficiency but it will be fairly empty. As a person that primarily is motivated by feeling I am still able to recognize the importance of logic but I think people can be quick to dismiss feeling as weak and frustrating. I think it's perfectly reasonable if a couple is starting out in poly and when they negotiate boundaries one of them says, I know it's illogical, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use the same pet name for your OSO as you do for me. I would imagine as you progress you may find yourself needing less of the 'illogical' boundaries but that doesn't mean they're not valid when you need them.
 
I will trust someone's intuition/gut instincts (which comes from the nerve ganglion in the solar plexus) more than their logic! Logic is needed for certain situations, to be sure, but in matters of the heart -- such as relationships -- I feel it is very important to honor someone's feelings and not demand that they comply with my system of rationalizing.
 
I think it's perfectly reasonable if a couple is starting out in poly and when they negotiate boundaries one of them says, I know it's illogical, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use the same pet name for your OSO as you do for me. I would imagine as you progress you may find yourself needing less of the 'illogical' boundaries but that doesn't mean they're not valid when you need them.

I don't find your scenario illogical though. Using different names for people helps you identify them quicker, that is one thing I would expect my gf to say to me if she has a problem with it. It's also not illogical to want to feel special as that is a basic human characteristic that we cannot change, so if they said this also I would be fine with it in this particular case.

If people can't explain to me why they feel a certain way then they shouldn't be talking to me about it as that's just a waste of energy. This idea that as soon as we feel something we must act upon it or tell them to somebody is about as damaging as you can get for a relationship. If I made sure every thought I had was given to everyone around me I wouldn't have anyone in my life.

Most negative "feelings" that people want to express to you are born from a cultural programming most of us received growing up. Since this culture is on the verge of collapse we do not need to entertain most of those feelings do we?

Of course this is all based on the premise the people involved aren't assholes/selfish/stupid/willfully ignorant/etc, and going from my experiences with people, that's hard to find. I know that most of my advice is probably worthless to the average person.
 
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I'm not sure I follow your use of terms.

You appear to be saying that you feel frustrated when people try to discuss things in the heat of the moment before they've figured out what they're thinking/feeling. And therefore saying you have issues with people acting impulsively?

I can understand that but when you say that you don't want to waste your energy on talking to some one who doesn't understand their feelings I find that to be off-putting. Feelings can be hard to understand sometimes and I know sometimes I can use help sorting them out. Perhaps I misunderstand you.

"Most negative "feelings" that people want to express to you are born from a cultural programming most of us received growing up. Since this culture is on the verge of collapse we do not need to entertain most of those feelings do we?"

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. It sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I recognize that many of us wish to change and reprogram certain cultural practices and feelings. And what do you mean by the first sentence? I can think of lots of negative feelings that have little to do with cultural programming. And I think if you want to have healthy meaningful relationships, sometimes you need to entertain feelings of all kinds. Whether or not they become permanent house guests is another things... Relationships are not all about efficiency. If I had feelings and my partner were to tell me that he didn't wish to entertain them or discuss them because they were antiquated, I would be incredibly hurt. And very likely not to stay in the relationship.

I suppose my beef is that I feel like you're saying that you don't care to discuss your partner/s feelings if you deem them to be a waste of time. Let me know if I am off.
 
And therefore saying you have issues with people acting impulsively?

Yes I don't like people acting on impulse when it comes to such things.

I can understand that but when you say that you don't want to waste your energy on talking to some one who doesn't understand their feelings I find that to be off-putting. Feelings can be hard to understand sometimes and I know sometimes I can use help sorting them out. Perhaps I misunderstand you.

If someone comes to me with "I want to talk about something I'm feeling" then that is a different thing than "I feel this way so I want you to do blah" with no explanation.

Basically I don't like people reaching conclusions based on crappy ideas or feelings they haven't processed, if they want help to reach a conclusion then I'll do my best. I do enjoy hearing about how people did process things themselves and came to certain conclusions.

"I felt like this when I saw you do X with Jane, but after I thought about it I realize Y".
 
To me this is something different in each relationship. And one thing I think, that made it easier on Karma was to know these boundries would eventualy change.

Currently our boundries follow our rule of "Happy, healthy and sane". And this is for all parties involved. In the begining the boundries were tight because Karma and Cricket were both trying to rebuild trust with me. I needed to know I could trust them. Individualy and as a couple. So the boundries, or rules as we called them, were tight, no seeing eachother without me there, physical contact was limited, phone calls and e-mails were subject to me being there. No hiding. To me they lost the right to privacy when they had the affair. As the trust grew, I pulled back on A LOT of that. They were allowed to drive her home without me there, they were allowed to go to a friends house without me, I stopped reading every e-mail, I encouraged physical contact even sleep overs (though I had a hard time with that as I pushed it a little too soon), and we instituted the 24 hr rule, as long as I had 24 hr notice, they could have visits without me. Eventualy, it became only about respect and safety.

Our boundries now include honesty, respect (do I have plans, am I feeling okay, and me respecting them and their plans), and safety. Happy healthy sane as we call it, as long as we are all happy, healthy and sane, it's okay. If not, then it's required to sit down and find out what the issue is and how to fix it.



So after that long explanation of where we are, my question is, what boundries are you setting that she feels are getting in the way of who she is?

As it was said by someone else, if they are your NEEDS then they need to be respected, but you also need to respect hers.

Compromise is a huge part of making this work. I believe in compromise, not saccrafice. I think if compromise and communication is an issue, it's time to analyze your relationship as it stands.

Karma and I are far from perfect, but communication and respect of eachothers thoughts and feelings has made all the difference in making this work.
 
The thing with negotiating boundaries is that you need to compromise until you find the edge of the boundary; the place where if it goes one step further you will be pushed over the edge. When that compromising feeling is gone, you have found your boundary.

I find I ludicrous to stop negotiating with her saying that she wants her freedom and right to do whatever because its her life. It isn't just about her. Part of negotiating is to empathize, respect others feelings and not be selfish. She is not doing these things it sounds like.
When Mono told me that under no circumstance would he stay with me if I added another man to my life I had some hard decisions to make. He was asking me to compromise, and I did. I thought my freedom was taken away from me, my right to do what I want, all of that "need" stuff, but I decided that I would move forward and offer something that I could live. I asked him to compromise. And he did. He decided that he could live with me finding connections with other men (the underlying "need" to be able to connect with people), but not ones that involved sex. We continue to explore this negotiation and still compromise, we may always do this, I don't know.

The point is that no one person gets to call the shots and no one person gets to say what is ethically "right." it has to be agreed upon as far as I'm concerned. Someone in their NRE whining because it isn't fair that they have a partner that is struggling and asking for it all to go slower isn't the one that gets to call all the shots.... This isn't monogamy. In mono relationships there is no boundary negotiation like in poly I think; you get to spend as much time with your partner as you both decide. In poly you get to spend as much time and have as much sex as EVERYONE decides. Not the one at the hinge. At least not usually anyways.
 
The thing with negotiating boundaries is that you need to compromise until you find the edge of the boundary; the place where if it goes one step further you will be pushed over the edge. When that compromising feeling is gone, you have found your boundary.

^ this is an excellent way of putting it.

My wife and I negotiated boundaries - me trying to deal with the realization that I needed a return to poly and she struggling to manage that return for us. Poly was pre-marriage, pre-kids for us and she viewed it more as youthful experimentation, not a way to make a life (even thought we were both in our 30's lol).

My wife didn't realize this immediately. We tried to negotiate to that boundary. But, she hit that edge - as RP puts it - and hit it hard. Her language was that she felt like she was losing who she was - giving too much of herself. Which I understood completely.

It was hard because she (we) desparately wanted to stay in the marriage. After three years of trying to figure out the right configuration, right boundaries, and ways to maintain respect, safety, and meet eachother's needs, we were both at our edge. Ultimately, you can't destroy yourself in order to save a marriage. Doesn't work. When you're at your edge, it certainly feels like something dear is at risk.

Sometimes are edges are incompatible. It's not unethical or selfish to discover and act upon that. Selfishness and unethical behavior can result if we deal poorly with that discovery (something that I, unfortunately, have experience with as well). But, those are two different things.
 
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