I Wish my hubby was more like new boyfriend

Saying things like "It makes you seem like a moron when you do that" closes the door to additional discussion. He's being insulted, and it probably hurts, so why would he then want to continue talking and answer your questions about why he does it? He might not even KNOW why he does it.

Though that letter you posted (and did you ask him if it was okay to share? Because that sounds like a pretty private letter to me) does give some ideas of why he is the way he is.

He's been belittled and insulted by women and men all his life, and you're adding to that. Every time you suggest a change he might make, you're phrasing it in terms of a failing he has. Instead of "I really love it when you make me come" you say things like "I like that you can make me come even though you have a small penis."

Leave off the "even though" and "but" and "in spite of" and try giving him positive feedback that doesn't include negative and insulting comments.

If you don't know how to do that... that would be yet another reason why counseling would be better than continuing to complain about how and why Ray isn't what you want. And if he isn't what you want, why are you still wtih him anyway? He doesn't have to change for you. He needs a reason to change for HIS OWN SAKE. Changing for someone else doesn't work. You have to see for yourself that changes are necessary, and want to make them happen.

And clearly, despite the feedback you've gotten in this thread, you see no need to change your behavior and your insulting treatment of Ray, so why would he want to change for you?
 
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"He needs a reason to change for *his own sake.*"

Ooh, good one.

And KC43 is right to point out that if you want/expect Ray to change, you should be ready/willing to make some changes of your own. Can you do that?

Keep the carrot; remove the stick ...
 
Debbie, I appreciate your openness on this forum. I hear that you think communication with Ray is fine, but I'd like to invite you to consider some questions below:

- Do you humiliate, degrade, discount, negate, judge, and criticize Ray?
- Do you tell him his opinion or feelings are "wrong?"
- Do you sometimes ridicule and dismiss thoughts, suggestions, and feelings?
- Do you treat him as inferior to you? Inferior to other men?
- Do you make him feel that you are always right?
- Do you remind him of his shortcomings (e.g., how small his penis is, his problems getting an erection, his submissive behavior)?
- Do you belittle who he is?
- Do you give him disapproving, dismissive, or condescending looks, comments, and behavior (e.g., telling him that you are disappointed in him)?
- Do you have trouble apologizing?
- Do you tend to blame him for your problems or unhappiness or automatically blame him when things go wrong?
- Do you call him names (e.g., moron)? Swear at him? Put him down?
- Do you withdraw or withhold affection or attention when angry?
- Do you treat him as a sex object, instead of a person?
- Do you make Ray feel like a failure as a provider, partner, or lover? As a man?
- Do you feel like you have to tell him the same thing over and over and over?
- Do you sometimes yell, scream, and lash out at Ray?
- Do others remark that you might treat him badly (e.g., hypercritical of him)?

Your description of your relationship with Ray seems to have several yes's to the questions above. My perception is that you are emotionally abusive towards him. Even if you don't see how your behavior might be abusive, consider this:

People who are emotionally abused may feel:
- Like they can't do anything right
- That they deserve to be put down and mistreated
- Feel emotionally numb or helpless

I don't think you are realizing the part you are playing in maintaining Ray's low self-worth. It's not uncommon for people with extensive histories of abuse, like Ray, to be involved in other relationships in adulthood that are also abusive. He may feel used to being treated that way or even feels he deserves it. You say that you deeply love him, but your actions suggest otherwise.

I strongly suggest some significant counseling, not only for Ray, but for you as well. I hope you can be open in reflecting on yourself and your behavior towards Ray and not overlook these major problems.
 
I don't quite understand why you keep sharing all the lists of things you have said and what his response was, from conversations that took place 8 years ago (did you write it all down so you could hold it over his head or something), as a defense against counseling. To me, it just enforces my opinion that you do need to seek out counseling. You seem to think this only has to do with sex and the size of your partners cock - it's much bigger than that. Sure Ray's happier when you have a lover with a great big cock, you're less of a bitch to him. That doesn't change the fact that he seems to have a great many self-esteem issues (at the least) or that the two of you talk a lot, but don't actually communicate.


We both have self esteem issues, and we both know that. We both grew up being told we weren't good enough, or weren't like other girls or guys. We have tried to build each other up. I admit that I have not done a great job of building my husband's self esteem, but I have tried. He hears me, but doesn't always listen, or vice-versa.

Yes, we were both happier when we had an Alpha man living with us, and it wasn't because of the sexual aspect alone. Mine and Ray's happiness did not occur simply because Antonio had a very large cock. I liked that, but that wasn't what made us both happy. The fact that Antonio had a large cock was just a bonus.

I write lists and keep notebooks because that is what I have always done. I have even shared with Ray notebooks I wrote and filled when I was with my previous husbands. I do not keep a journal, but I do write notes to myself throughout the day and write my thoughts in my notebooks. I don't do it to hang anything over Ray's head. It is just something I have always done.

Ray and I both had messed up childhoods, as well as crappy marriages. And both me and Ray often do not feel we deserve each others love. It isn't a one way street.

Too often I find myself asking Ray how he can love me when I am a bitch so often. And Ray, luckily, always tells me that he loves me because of who I am, not how I am. When Ray got home this evening I told him that my left arm had been numb most of the day. And he knows that my left arm has been giving me trouble for some time. In response, Ray told me to get naked and get on the bed. Once I was naked and on the bed, Ray spent the next two ours massaging my entire body, with a lot of attention given to my left shoulder blade.

I told Ray tonight that he may not be a lot of things, but one thing he is is a healer. I told Ray that his hands were magical. I told Ray that I loved him and that no man had ever made me feel as good as he does, on a daily basis.

I told Ray that when he does things like he did tonight that he makes up for all the things that I had bitched at him about. I told Ray that he may not be a doctor, but he was better than any doctor that I could have gone to for the same issue.

When it comes to things like tonight, no man can compare with Ray. I know that and I have told him that as well.
 
It's great that you found something positive to compliment Ray about.

Now try finding more positive things, and not commenting to him so often about the negatives, particularly the things that you know he isn't going to change or isn't able to change.

You seem very resistant to the idea of counseling. If you had a crappy childhood and have resulting self-esteem issues, as well as apparently having learned to treat others the way you were treated, counseling would be very beneficial. It would benefit Ray. Couple counseling, in which you could both learn healthier ways of communicating and interacting, would benefit you and your marriage, as well as possibly your relationships with other men. (There are counselors out there who would be completely open to your lifestyle and situation. They might not be as easy to find, but speaking as someone who's had two such counselors at the same clinic, they do exist.)

I wonder whether you're ignoring or deflecting the suggestions of counseling because you were brought up to believe people shouldn't need it, or because you are aware that some of your behaviors and thoughts are not appropriate and don't want to hear it from a professional because that might mean having to change the way you act.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with KC43.

At the end of my almost-17-year-marriage, we tried to "fix" it. I was going to counseling, but he refused. Said we got into that state by ourselves, and we can get out of it by ourselves.

It was like trying to repeatedly bash in a nail, over and over again, into a piece of wood and it just wasn't going in. Tearing up the wood, getting all cockeyed, holding things together in a wobbly way, until it broke. It would have been nice to have someone sit with both of us and show us how to use a damned screwdriver, not a hammer, for something that wasn't a nail. I was not communicating effectively with him, nor he with me (when he communicated at all).

That's what counseling is - a tool to help us (A) communicate with an unbiased third party to dig into ourselves, and (B) communicate better with each other. If you're okay with the status quo, or want to stick your head in the sand about how things really are, then you're not going to want to do this work, because THEN you deal with what comes out of all the communication.

Do you want things to magically fix themselves? They won't.
Do you believe that only "weak" people can benefit from counseling? Not true.
Do you want someone else to change for you, but not want to be challenged yourself?

Why avoid counseling?

(FWIW, there are links somewhere around here for poly- and kink- friendly counselors, so you can see if there is one in your area. I believe that some practice over Skype as well, if you're not physically near any.)
 
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I wonder whether you're ignoring or deflecting the suggestions of counseling because you were brought up to believe people shouldn't need it, or because you are aware that some of your behaviors and thoughts are not appropriate and don't want to hear it from a professional because that might mean having to change the way you act.


I was told flat out by my parents that counseling was worthless. This was the worst advice I have ever received. Finding the right counselor was hit or miss for a bit, but when I did it made such a difference in my life.

It was crazy hard to be that vulnerable, but so worth it. Please, please consider it for you and Ray. It can make the world of difference.
 
Resources for finding poly- (and kink-) friendly counselors:

Resources to direct your counselor to if they're unfamiliar with poly:

Both of you would probably benefit from individual counseling, as well as from couples counseling. You could go either or both ways here.

I have worked with many counselors in my life, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Working with a counselor is not an act of cowardice. Quite the contrary, it takes a lot of courage to see a counselor. It takes a lot of courage to lay bare your soul.

I don't necessarily think you and Ray have a bad life together. There are bad things in it, but overall you like what you have with each other, and are happy in it. If you could supplement what you have with counseling, Ray might be able to start being a little more of the man you want him to be, and you'll get better at emphasizing the positive to guide him. Counseling is something nice you could do both for yourselves and for each other.

And I do think continued participation in this thread will help too. These things take time, so have patience.
 
Last night, when Ray got home, I told him that my back was hurting. He gave me a two hour massage. In return I went down on him for a good minute or so. Then I asked him to kiss me and cuddle with me. And he did. Feeling Ray's erection pressing against my belly for the next 30-45 minutes felt really good. We do have our good times.

My LDR BF came by earlier today and we made love, too. He loves it when I go down on him, too. So, I went down on him for a good 20 minutes or so. Then we made love for almost an hour. Last night and today, so far, have been incredible.

My LDR BF is on his way back. He had to make a run. So, when he gets back, we will play some more, then he wants to take me out to lunch. I like that. And we will probably make love after lunch, too. I like that as well.

Then tonight, around 6:pM, Ray and I are going to see a therapist. Yes. We found one, and we're going.

Iwill keep everyone informed.
 
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"Ray and I are going to see a therapist. Yes. We found one, and we're going."

That's awesome. I am eager to hear about how it goes (if you want to share).
 
...this reads like a cuckolding bodice-ripper, and the cynical side of me is wondering if we're an audience for your erotica...

Yup, this.:rolleyes:
 
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That's awesome. I am eager to hear about how it goes (if you want to share).

Well, we went to see a therapist. Her name is Margaret. She specializes in everything from abuse to voyeurism. She is also involved in a poly relationship of her own.

Margaret was very pleasant, and had a smile for both me and Ray. As soon as we walked into her office, and she introduced herself, Margaret read, or quoted, all the legal stuff she had to quote, then she told me that she had read the thread I had told her about (this one) during our phone consultation.

Margaret asked me to tell her more about my last post on this thread. I asked Margaret what she wanted to know. Margaret said she wanted to know more about Roy, my LDR BF. I told Margaret that I had known Roy for almost 25 years. And that we had been lovers for the last 8 years. Margaret stopped me, then asked me about today, with Roy.

Margaret asked me to use one word to describe the experience I had with Roy today. I thought for a moment, then answered, "Beautiful." Then Margaret asked me to use one word to describe last night with Ray. I immediately said, "Magical."

Margaret read through some notes she had, then she asked me to use one word to describe the experience I had with Tom the other night. I answered, "Wow!"

Margaret then asked me to use one word to describe Scott. I had to think, then I told Margaret that Scott hadn't called or answered any of my texts since Ray and I last saw him. Margaret asked me to use one word to describe how that made me feel. I answered, "Disappointed."

Margaret then asked Ray how he felt about Scott not calling or answering my texts. Ray told Margaret that he wasn't surprised. Ray said that he had a feeling this would happen. We paid Scott for work he hadn't yet done. Scott felt intimidated by Ray, and now we may not hear from him soon, or again.

Margaret thanked both of us, then she asked both of us to give a little back ground on our up bringing. After Ray and I gave Margaret our back grounds, Margaret told us that nothing was going to be accomplished in just one meeting. And both me and Ray understood.

Margaret then asked me if I thought that Ray and I had a good relationship. I said that I thought we did. And Ray agreed. Margaret asked me and Ray what we both wanted to accomplish in therapy. I told Margaret that I would like for me and Ray to communicate better. Ray said he didn't really know what needed to be accomplished, but he was open to suggestions.

Margaret "suggested" to Ray that maybe we should work on communication first. Ray agreed. Margaret asked Ray what he felt was the best aspect of mine and his relationship. Ray told Margaret that the best aspect of our relationship, to him, was that I was confident in his love, enough to love other men, as well as him.

Margaret asked me the same question. I said that the best aspect of our relationship was that we are not only husband and wife, we are best friends. Margaret took some notes, then asked both me and Ray why we thought that therapy could help us. I told Margaret that having a third party that could be objective might be able to see things that neither of us can. Ray said he didn't know.

Margaret explained to us that she had 25 years of experience in couples counseling, and just as long counseling couples who were into swinging, poly, kink, BDSM, voyeurism, etc. Margaret told me and Ray, while looking at Ray, that nothing was going to shock her, and that we both needed to be open and honest with her. Ray and and I agreed.

Margaret asked me if I loved Ray. And I said yes. Then Margaret asked me if I loved Roy. Again I said yes. Margaret then asked Ray how he felt about me loving both him and Roy. Ray told Margaret that knowing that I love Roy makes him feel good. Ray told Margaret that he knew that Roy was at the house today, and that I have loved Roy for a very long time. And knowing that I was physically loving Roy today made him feel loved.

Margaret asked Ray what it was like being married to a woman that other men want. Ray said that made him feel special, and that what he had was special as well. Margaret then asked me how it felt to have a husband who allowed me to be romantic and sexual with other men. I told Margaret that I felt very loved, not only by Ray, but by Roy and Tom and other men, too.

Margaret then asked me to use one word to describe my relationship with Ray. I answered, "Comfortable." Margaret then asked me to use one word to describe my relationship with Roy. I thought for a moment, then answered, "Alluring." Margaret asked me to explain how my relationship with Ray was "comfortable." I told Margaret that I feel very comfortable with Ray, and that Ray is like a pair of old, worn in comfy shoes. You know at the end of the day, no matter how your day went, that those old comfy shoes are going to feel really good once you get home.

Margaret then asked me to explain how my relationship with Roy was alluring. I told Margaret that Roy was never boring, and never really predictable. I told Margaret that Roy is spontanious and exciting, warm and loving. I never know what to really expect of or from Roy.

Margaret then said that our time was almost up, but she wanted to know if Roy would ever be willing to join one of our sessions. Both me and Ray said that it could happen. I told Margaret that I would ask Roy if he would be willing to attend one of our sessions. Margaret then asked Ray how he would feel if Roy sat in on one of our sessions. Ray said that he would Like for Roy to join our sessions. I then asked Margaret why she wanted Roy in our sessions.

Margaret told me and Ray that she may ask us if others may join at some time. And since me and Roy had such a close relationship that maybe having him join us would be helpful for her and us. I then asked Margaret who else she would want to have join our sessions. Margaret said that when and if the time arose, then we would talk about it.

I am not sure what all got accomplished with our first therapy session, but time will tell, I guess.

If nothing else, we got to know Margaret a little, and she got to know us, somewhat. And Ray and I made love when we got home. I guess I would have to say that today was a pretty good day. I got to make love to Ray. I got to make love with Roy, three times, and Ray and I went to our first counseling session.

I guess we will see where things go from here. We have another appointment with Margaret next Thursday.
 
So far, Margaret sounds like a good counselor. Not that you can tell a lot just from your first session, but so far so good. I like that she asked many questions; she seems to want to understand the situation thoroughly before delving into advice.

Thanks for sharing that.
 
Okay, so no mention of going to counseling?

The rest of this reads like a cuckolding bodice-ripper, and the cynical side of me is wondering if we're an audience for your erotica.

If the story is true, then I hope he does get some counseling. I'm thinking that individual counseling might be best at this point.


I had to respond to this, only because I run into this a lot. Too often people read my writing in one forum or another. And when they read of my life, that I really live, they say it sounds like fantasy.

I am always amazed at how many people do not live their lives, and think that others couldn't be, because they aren't. I am not saying that to anyone on this thread, but I am always amazed that people feel that how I really live my life has to be some story I am making up.

We have even had men to the house, that I have played with, who have said that until they experienced it themselves, they would have never believed that people actually do the things we do. So, I understand, to a point, why people might think that our lives are some fantasy we have.

What a lot of people have to realize is that there are people who really do live the lives that other people can only fantasize about.

There are few really good forums out there. And I like this one. I had something happen this morning that I would like to have some response about, but I am not really sure, now, what is appropriate to post and what isn't. We went to our first counseling session, and I hate to have to wait until Thursday to talk to anyone about it. And talking to others on forums is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying a therapist.

We will continue to go to counseling, I am sure, and I will deal best with my issues as I can. I just have found it hard to find on the "world wide" web people of like mind. And that amazes me.
 
I had something happen this morning that I would like to have some response about, but I am not really sure, now, what is appropriate to post and what isn't. We went to our first counseling session, and I hate to have to wait until Thursday to talk to anyone about it. And talking to others on forums is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying a therapist.

There is a life stories/blog section here that I think you might find useful to write down random thoughts and events you want to share in detail. There is different rules with how others can/can't respond. While the Poly Relationship Corner and General Poly sections is more for questions and getting a wide range of responses from all sides.

Sounds like your counseling is off to a good start. It does take time.
 
There is sharing a story then there is a line where you are sharing too much information.

You could have gotten your point/question across well without the erotica feel.

Make your own blog here on the forums in story/blog section and be as detailed as you want.
 
FWIW, I have no objection to whatever you want to post and will try to offer some helpful feedback for whatever it is.

That said, the Life stories and blogs board does give you room to post in a journal-like way and just get mostly positive feedback.

I don't watch the blog board too closely so if you do post there, post a link in this thread leading to that blog and I will follow it.

Everyone needs a place where they can be free to express themselves.
 
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