Relationships, generally.

River

Active member
I'd like some input about a challenge I'm facing in relationships, generally. I think the themes and topics I have in mind to discuss are relevant to all kinds of relationships, so the thread does not seem to be an intrusion of non-poly stuff into a poly forum. Besides, I respect the intelligence of people here. So here goes.

Many months ago I was taking a city walk with a friend, talking. We walked along the river.... She was a new friend (platonic), but there was much friend-warmth and friend-affection between us. I was going through a severe challenge in a relationship with a friend and work collaborator, and was sharing with her (Let's call her "Tammy" - not her actual name) about the great emotional challenge it was for me to have a "friend" (Let's call him "Sam") mistreat me in various ways, especially when that friend was a work collaborator as well. So I was pretty expressive with Tammy about the difficulty and pain I was experiencing in my relationship with Sam.

Professionally, Tammy is a psychotherapist, so I had good reason to believe Tammy is able to deal with folks who are in emotional distress -- but I did NOT foist the therapist role upon Tammy. I was speaking with her as a friend, not a client.

Tammy asked me questions about the difficulty I was having with Sam, and I answered her questions. Because speaking about the matter brought the pain of it all very much to the surface, I became very expressive about my hurt feelings and the pain of not knowing how to handle the situation with Sam. I was a bit worked up emotionally, so I was less than fully sensitive to
Tammy in that I somewhat dominate the conversation that day. But I do not recall ever having been flagrantly, terribly awful with her. I was just having a bad day and wasn't at my best in terms of sharing conversational space. It was a lot about me and my challenge and pain on that walk. (I would have let it be all about her were she in distress.)

After that walk I did not see or hear from Tammy for a long time, and Tammy stopped coming to the meditation group I'm a part of.

So I wrote her an email saying how Kevin & I have been missing her. At which point she lets me know that there was something about which she needed to "clear the air". Eventually, I learned that it was something about that day. Basically, she had been avoiding me. So I asked her to meet me for tea and conversation about it. She agreed, but when I asked her to offer possible days and times for our tea / meeting she never got back with me.

When we talked again (by email) she said something about having Kevin present when we met for tea. Curious, I asked if whatever it was that she wasn't saying somehow involved Kevin.

Yesterday I bumped into Tammy at the grocery store and took the opportunity to ask if she had seen my email in which I asked her to set a tea date with me. We conversed a little ... and she let it be known that she did not feel "safe" with me, which is why she wanted Kevin to attend our tea get-together. I found this very, very surprising -- and it also felt weirdly like an accusation (but of what? What had I done?). Surely I had done nothing to cause her to feel unsafe! I was expressive about my difficulty with Sam; I did not hide my upset about that; I was a little rude in that I didn't do a good job of sharing conversational space that day ... but "unsafe"?!?!

When I talked with Tammy, briefly, at the grocery store she said I had told her to "shut up" that day by the river. This is certainly not true, and far out of character for me. I'd certainly never done that with her, and she'd be among the last people I'd ever say such words to. It is possible that I may have asked her -- much more gently than "shut up" -- to be allowed to finish a story or a sentence. I will do that with people sometimes. But I was not upset with HER, and am sure I did not raise my voice or use an aggressive tone of voice with her.

Again, I sent her an email -- yesterday -- saying how it felt for me to have her ignore my request to set a tea date and "clear the air" (her words)..., and how it felt for me to be accused of telling her to "shut up," when I know that never happened. I let her know that it didn't seem to me that I had done anything to deserve banishment. And I expressed willingness to meet with her with Kevin (my partner) present.

Today I received an email from her in which she said she would prefer that I never seek to communicate with her again, that she wants me to simply leave her alone and go away.

I never would have expected any of this, and am totally caught off guard by it.

Tammy had always previously been very warm and affectionate, tender and close with me, so I find it very strange that she would abandon a friendship without so much as being willing to discuss any of the reasons for doing so.

I can simply let it go. I have lots of friends; no lack there. But the whole thing has got me wondering about certain questions. Clearly Tammy was "triggered" by something with me. It seems to be the case that when folks are triggered (to use the colloquialism) they will sometimes have somewhat dramatically distorted perceptions about an event or situation, and mis-perceive a person's character, attitude or intentions.

I work with and know a lot of people, and my/our work is often very interpersonally intimate. So on occasion I find myself in a situation not unlike that one I described with Tammy. It's not a high percentage of the people I know and relate with, so it can't be entirely about me. But I'm aware and sensitive enough, and self-reflective enough, to keep the question alive "How do I contribute to these situations?" ... "What is my part in it?"

I ended my friendship with Sam some while back, as I no longer wished to be the recipient of some very distorted images he was projecting upon me ..., his inability to see and recognize who I really am and what my actual motivations are. He was very accusatory, critical, demanding, controlling and manipulative toward me (and I now see that that's just how Sam is with pretty much anyone and everyone)--well, especially the manipulative part. It was very painful and difficult for me to get to the place where I refused to try Sam's distorted images of me on in my own mirror, to see if I may in fact be as he saw me. I wasn't. I'm not. And knowing this allowed me to move on and leave our friendship and our collaboration behind.

Now I seem to be going through something similar with Tammy. She seems to think I'm some sort of monster who is "unsafe".

In total, I've experienced having something which resonates with this same theme with four different people over the last, say, fifteen months. In every case, the person has seen me as some sort of evil thing or monster which cannot be trusted or liked. (For context, my work and personal/social life is such that I know and interact with about, at least, 200 different people with some regularity.)

The overwhelming majority of people certainly don't see me as unworthy of trust, connection, affection.... So it can't be ALL about me. But I must say I find it very unsettling to have had four people come to see me as some sort of devil or monster and then abandon our friendship without even being willing to discuss anything or work on it. Only three of those four people are former friends, with the fourth being a mere acquaintance who attended an event I was at.

I'm weary of the distortions of perception ... all of them ... my own with myself. Others with me. All of it.

I long to be seen as the actual person I am -- especially by those who are close to me. And, yes, I know none (or few) of us see ourselves undistortedly. So I try to remain open to the possibility that I'm more like the monster people sometimes project upon me than I think I am. Yet that very openness to possibility caused me great pain and grief with Sam, who I now know for sure was living in a carnivalesque house of distorting mirrors -- like the ones which make skinny men appear fat and fat women appear skinny.

The point is that even entertaining the possibility of another's distorted perception of one's self can do one harm -- as it did with me over months with my former friend, Sam.

I almost want to end with a question here, but I'm not sure how to state it. I'm just weary of this pattern, and worry I let people get under my skin too much. I just don't like playing Monster for people. I am merely human, not the Devil.
 
Maybe you do let people get under your skin too much. I have a hard time picturing you as someone so dangerous that your boyfriend would need to be there to hold you back. Who knows what her issue is?

I know I am a good person. If someone treats me otherwise, I don't need to know them. I used to take things like that personally, but then I came to the realization it's them, not me. Of course, they probably feel the same about me, right?
 
Clearly Tammy was "triggered" by something with me. It seems to be the case that when folks are triggered (to use the colloquialism) they will sometimes have somewhat dramatically distorted perceptions about an event or situation, and mis-perceive a person's character, attitude or intentions.

Intense emotions are triggering for some people. Even when they aren't directed *at* them. Just being in the presence of pressured speech, louder voice, broad gestures, angry/anguished tone, etc can be enough to make some people feel "unsafe". If you've spent a lot of time around unstable or mentally ill people, you can become hyper vigilant for signs that things are about to go sideways.

Interesting that Tammy is a therapist - I've actually noticed that this hyper vigilance around body language and voice is not uncommon in mental health professionals. You spend your whole working day "reading the signs" with clients, it becomes an ingrained way of living.

I work in a setting where there are many current or former victims of abuse (and lots of therapists, too ;) ) and intense emotional expressions just do not happen outside of the therapy sessions. We speak in quiet voices, we don't "talk with our hands", we keep several feet apart when we walk together, we never ever ever touch someone without getting a verbal ok first. It's odd how the way professionals act around clients has influenced the way we act around each other. Prefacing touch with "I'd like to give you a hug now" is second nature to me.

So that's my rambling guess about the Tammy situation. But that's all it is, a guess, based on my personal experiences. What you *know* is that she felt unsafe and has asked you to give her space. Respect that.

I'm weary of the distortions of perception ... all of them ... my own with myself. Others with me. All of it ... I'm just weary of this pattern, and worry I let people get under my skin too much. I just don't like playing Monster for people. I am merely human, not the Devil.

This is the real issue, here. Because honestly, 4 people out of 200 being either jerks or too caught up in their own problems to see you clearly doesn't surprise me. But you are being hurt by it, and that's an issue.

Some people are just horrible, manipulative, gaslighting assholes :( They enjoy causing other people stress and pain and self doubt.

Other people are, for any number of reasons, unable to see the world and the people around them clearly. They are mentally ill, or stressed, or insecure, or just plain unhappy. It distorts their vision. It's like the opposite of rose colored glasses (cloud colored glasses?) Sometimes they need to make somebody the bad guy, because it's the only way they can channel all the negativity inside. Sometimes they need to make somebody the bad guy because they don't have the courage (or the skills or the energy) to actually figure out their problems. Sometimes, you will be the one they pick to be the bad guy.

For me - most of the time at least - remembering this is enough to keep me from getting hurt by others' perceptions. As long as I am happy with me, I can let other people see me however they need to.
 
Intense emotions are triggering for some people. Even when they aren't directed *at* them. Just being in the presence of pressured speech, louder voice, broad gestures, angry/anguished tone, etc can be enough to make some people feel "unsafe". If you've spent a lot of time around unstable or mentally ill people, you can become hyper vigilant for signs that things are about to go sideways.

^^This. Also, what one person perceives as passionate may be perceived by another as hostile or unstable....it all depends on each person's past experiences and current frame of mind. And, your emails, while you considered them explanations, may have felt defensive and accusatory to her. Especially if she'd already pegged you as possibly unstable. If we're looking hard enough for red flags, we can usually find them (even where they don't necessarily exist.) How we experience the world, is, imho, a reflection of what we choose to focus on.

I'd chalk this up to a mismatch of personality and let it go.
 
In order to know what tweaked Tammy, I'd have to watch the entire conversation by the river, and even then I might need to have ESP so I could read Tammy's mind. Based on your description, the best I can guess is that Tammy is easily alarmed by seeing/hearing someone get animated and upset. Which doesn't track with her being a psychotherapist, but it's still the best guess I have.

It is hard to learn to be very calm all the time. I've had to learn it myself, and it hasn't been quick or easy. In fact, I might not be able to do it today if not for the medication I take. I grew up in a house where a lot of loud anger was expressed. Nature or nurture or both left a deep footprint on me.

I'm not sure if that helps, but such is my perspective in case it does.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
It was very helpful to me to read those responses. Thank you all for your sensitive and kind words. :)

That's all from me for the moment. Time to reflect, settle, ... and eventually sleep upon it all.

Hugs all around!
 
You seem to be taking a fairly innocuous comment (I don't feel safe with you) very personally, turning it into a statement that you're some kind of monster. I can't really draw that line from the story you've related. All I see is a misunderstanding.

She thought you told her to shut up. You don't remember telling her to shut up. It doesn't really matter whether you did or didn't use those specific words, you admit that you dominated the conversation and might have talked over her. It doesn't matter who was right about who said what because being right would not make her feelings of being unsafe go away. Whatever you did or didn't do, she experienced a bad feeling and she told you about it and offered a possible solution, let's meet with a third party present. You responded to her statement by refusing to meet with her in a situation in which she did feel safe. If you weren't willing to have the conversation on her terms, she wasn't willing to have it. The end.

My whole point is... it doesn't matter. There was a miscommunication and a relationship broke down. That doesn't make either of you bad people.
 
You seem to be taking a fairly innocuous comment (I don't feel safe with you) very personally, turning it into a statement that you're some kind of monster.

It was that comment in context with her having, for months, refused to talk or interact with me (other than to agree to meet with me for tea, but never suggesting a day or time) -- months in which I've had a standing invitation to meet with her for tea and was simply awaiting her suggesting a day, time and location. It was only just the other day that she told me that she didn't arrange for tea because she felt unsafe with me.


You responded to her statement by refusing to meet with her in a situation in which she did feel safe.

I never refused to meet with her with a third party present. What I did do, initially -- before the grocery store encounter more recently --, was ask if she wished Kevin to be there because it involved him somehow. It was a perfectly natural question to ask, as I had no idea what was going on with her (that she felt unsafe) at that time. Nor had I the faintest reason to suspect she might feel unsafe with me, since I did nothing to cause such a response or reaction in her.

When I sent my email to her after our conversation in the grocery store, I let it be known that I was willing to meet with her with Kevin present. I also expressed my surprise that she felt she could not trust me and that she felt unsafe with me.

She responded by requesting that I never seek to communicate with her ever again. Naturally, I found this both startling and hurtful.
 
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I certainly understand your puzzlement and unhappiness that someone has reacted to you in this way. Perhaps if Tammy had reached out to you to discuss what happened, things might seem less inexplicable and less rejecting to you. However, that's a moot point.

It is likely that there is a trigger here of some kind. I don't believe this is solely about you and your behavior. However, we cannot know what is in Tammy's mind and heart.

So from what you have passed on to us, here is what I notice. This is likely to be hard to read - it's meant to be helpful but I accept it may not be for you.

Let me start a bit sideways. Bear with me - I will bring it together.

I am terrified of being considered unsafe when I play with people in a kink environment. I worry about pushing people's boundaries or triggering some unwelcome emotions. I am concerned about misunderstandings or making a bad judgement and doing something they did not want.

Yet mistakes are inevitable, misunderstandings happen and despite everyone's best efforts, I will do something someone doesn't want or like.

What I've learned about handling these really hard situations is that I do not get to tell someone that their perception of me is wrong. I do not dispute their version of events. I listen, I apologize, and I ask what I can do to right things. Sometimes none of these actions are enough and the relationship suffers.

I do not have the right to deny someone else's feelings, perceptions or thoughts about a mutual experience. (Of course, I have the right to my own perceptions but that's not my point here.) I've learned that trying to change someone's mind about their perceptions of me is not just pointless but actually harmful to me and to them. They feel unheard and denigrated. (Want to make someone feel crazy? Tell them their reality doesn't exist and not only doesn't exist but is wrong and should be such and such.) Disputing lived experiences turns me into not just a bad listener, I also shut down any possibility of further conversation.

Louis C.K. has been quoted as saying 'When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don't get to decide that you didn't.' (This is a meme so take provenance with a grain of salt.) You hurt her, you didn't mean to but you did. And then you followed up with denying that you hurt her, that her perception of her own experience is wrong and thus you are not unsafe and she is wrong to feel unsafe around you. Can you see how rejecting her perceptions in this way reinforced her feelings of being unsafe around you? And led to no contact?

I see you as being so unhappy about being perceived as unsafe that you deny that the entire situation happened. It did not happened that way and therefore you cannot be unsafe.

The horrible thing about situations like this is that as far as she is concerned, it did happen that way and you are unsafe. Accepting that someone else sees us in ways we just don't understand and find repugnant is incredibly hard. But I have found that it is also the only way forward, to get to some peace about a difficult situation.

I accept totally that you never meant to hurt her, to not listen to her, to overwhelm her with emotion - or whatever she feels happened in that conversation. I'm not saying that she is 'right' and that you are 'wrong'. Nor am I saying that you must accept her perceptions as the only truth or that your own perceptions must be discarded. I am saying that denying the situation existed as she stated it is counterproductive and led to exactly the situation you have now - a lost friendship and pain on both sides.
 
I accept totally that you never meant to hurt her, to not listen to her, to overwhelm her with emotion - or whatever she feels happened in that conversation. I'm not saying that she is 'right' and that you are 'wrong'. Nor am I saying that you must accept her perceptions as the only truth or that your own perceptions must be discarded. I am saying that denying the situation existed as she stated it is counterproductive and led to exactly the situation you have now - a lost friendship and pain on both sides.

Reminds me of the saying "would you rather be all right or be alright."
 
When I sent my email to her after our conversation in the grocery store, I let it be known that I was willing to meet with her with Kevin present. I also expressed my surprise that she felt she could not trust me and that she felt unsafe with me.

She responded by requesting that I never seek to communicate with her ever again. Naturally, I found this both startling and hurtful.

I did totally read that part wrong. I think all of the negatives of the previous sentence bled into that sentence for me when I read it.

Anyway, my point is the same--there was a miscommunication somewhere. That doesn't make you a monster or something. You said that you have lots of friends, and this has only happened 4 times in 15 months, and only 3 of them with friends. Sometimes relationships fall apart, even friendships, over miscommunications. I think you're overreacting, reacting defensively, and taking the situation way too personally. You seem to really want validation on being "right." But it doesn't matter whether you were "right" in the situation and whether she was "right" in the situation. The situation is what it is.

You seemed to be asking for advice, and my advice is take a deep breath and move on. Let it go even if you think you can't. Not everyone is suited to be in a relationship together, and a friendship is a relationship. You say that you want to be yourself around your friends. You seem introspective and you seem to like who you are. So these "friends" you have lost do not work with with who you are. In which case, you're better off without them.
 
It was that comment in context with her having, for months, refused to talk or interact with me (other than to agree to meet with me for tea, but never suggesting a day or time) -- months in which I've had a standing invitation to meet with her for tea and was simply awaiting her suggesting a day, time and location. It was only just the other day that she told me that she didn't arrange for tea because she felt unsafe with me.




I never refused to meet with her with a third party present. What I did do, initially -- before the grocery store encounter more recently --, was ask if she wished Kevin to be there because it involved him somehow. It was a perfectly natural question to ask, as I had no idea what was going on with her (that she felt unsafe) at that time. Nor had I the faintest reason to suspect she might feel unsafe with me, since I did nothing to cause such a response or reaction in her.

When I sent my email to her after our conversation in the grocery store, I let it be known that I was willing to meet with her with Kevin present. I also expressed my surprise that she felt she could not trust me and that she felt unsafe with me.

She responded by requesting that I never seek to communicate with her ever again. Naturally, I found this both startling and hurtful.

You also said that you told her in the email that you never told her to shut up in the conversation. If someone had invalidated my feelings like that, I would feel even worse than I had to start with and it would make me more likely to feel even more unsafe with that person if I had already felt unsafe.
 
... it would make me more likely to feel even more unsafe with that person if I had already felt unsafe.

Great insights so far and some that are so helpful for understanding relationships in general.

I just want to add that when women say "unsafe" they often mean emotionally, which is a very real threat. Men seem to hear "unsafe" as a physical threat, which to them seems more dramatic than a situation perhaps warrants. That's perhaps why you hear "Monster" and "Devil," River, when your friend said "I feel unsafe." Conversely, it's a bit of an overreaction on your friend's part to feel "unsafe" or hearing "shut up" when someone stops her mid sentence or even interrupts, but she perceives what she perceives and Louis CK is right that if someone feels hurt, she feels hurt and your intentions are beside the point. Explaining intention is sometimes possible when you get to the make-up stage of a misunderstanding, but both people first need to step back and show empathy in a general way.

My husband and I have a rule that's served us well over our 16 years and that is no matter what, after an argument or tiff or any misunderstanding, each needs to try and be the first to say "I'm sorry" and the other other needs to accept the apology and perhaps offer the same. Many people bristle at this ("You should never apologize for how you feel!" "I'm not going to apologize because I'm not wrong!" "I'm sorry doesn't solve anything!" "People will step all over you if you're apologizing all of the time!") but I find willingness to apologize being the most empowering and de-escalating choice in a stand off. When I find myself in an argument or misunderstanding in which I don't know what to do, simply offering "I'm sorry" can soften the situation so that both can breathe and slowly move toward reconciliation. "I'm sorry" is a great place to start when you just want to get back to being friends. Often, it's not even necessary to hammer out all of the hows and whys.
 
You also said that you told her in the email that you never told her to shut up in the conversation. If someone had invalidated my feelings like that, I would feel even worse than I had to start with and it would make me more likely to feel even more unsafe with that person if I had already felt unsafe.

In my world, facts and feelings are not identical, exactly. Feelings may be facts, but feeling a certain way does not make something a fact.

Hannahfluke, you suggest that I invalidated Tammy's feelings. But, in fact, I disputed a question of facts. Facts are very different things from feelings, though feelings themselves are facts. Tammy said that I had asked her to "shut up." This is not a fact. I never told Tammy to shut up, even if Tammy had felt that I said "shut up". A feeling is not necessarily a fact, even though feelings are facts. Feelings are facts in that a person feels something (feelings are always bodily and in the realm of sensations -- felt experience). That's what makes them a fact. If I say I feel sad, or hot, or warm, or cold, or discouraged (as you see, it's complicated. Can one "feel" discouraged? I'd say yes. But one has to identify a sensation to feel anything, and "discouraged" can be felt in the body.

If I "feel" that the average person can leap the Grand Canyon in a single bound, even while wearing a backpack full of rocks, that does not constitute a fact. If Tammy, or anyone else, remembers me as having said "Shut Up," and I did not say those words, that "feeling" is not a fact about what I said.

I did NOT invalidate Tammy's feeling/s. She invalidated mine as much as I did hers. She recklessly disregarded my feelings, in fact, by refusing to talk with me or set up a tea date and time. I asked her to meet with me and work things out. She refused. How, then, am I invalidating her feelings? By questioning her story (which was not a fact) that I told her to "shut up"?

I deeply respect people's feelings. But let us please not conflate feelings with facts! If a person says "I feel that SoAndSo has a bomb in his book bag, should SoAndSo be shot dead by the police on sight? Because of a feeling?

Should a friendship be abandoned recklessly, carelessly because somone "felt" that someone told them to "shut up" -- regardless of the FACT that such words were never uttered, nor any words similar to them?

I'd be invalidating Tammy's feelings if I were unwilling to converse with her about what she felt. She'd be invalidating mine if she insisted -- despite my knowledge to the contrary -- that I told her to "shut up". This invalidation of me would be much stronger if she refused to meet with me -- even with a third party present -- because she "feels" I am not trustworthy and may somehow harm her ( ... that I am unsafe).

I respect her feelings. I do not agree with her interpretation of the facts of what transpired that day.

Feelings are facts. Feelings are not facts. Both are true. If I "feel" that ice cubes are terribly hot and may burn my skin with their terrible heat, I'm simply confused about the nature of ice.

Oh, please do not confuse me with Star Trek's Spock character. I'm not him, even though I do use logic. I'm human and have feelings too.
 
Great insights so far and some that are so helpful for understanding relationships in general.

I just want to add that when women say "unsafe" they often mean emotionally, which is a very real threat. Men seem to hear "unsafe" as a physical threat, which to them seems more dramatic than a situation perhaps warrants. That's perhaps why you hear "Monster" and "Devil," River, when your friend said "I feel unsafe." Conversely, it's a bit of an overreaction on your friend's part to feel "unsafe" or hearing "shut up" when someone stops her mid sentence or even interrupts, but she perceives what she perceives and Louis CK is right that if someone feels hurt, she feels hurt and your intentions are beside the point. Explaining intention is sometimes possible when you get to the make-up stage of a misunderstanding, but both people first need to step back and show empathy in a general way.

My husband and I have a rule that's served us well over our 16 years and that is no matter what, after an argument or tiff or any misunderstanding, each needs to try and be the first to say "I'm sorry" and the other other needs to accept the apology and perhaps offer the same. Many people bristle at this ("You should never apologize for how you feel!" "I'm not going to apologize because I'm not wrong!" "I'm sorry doesn't solve anything!" "People will step all over you if you're apologizing all of the time!") but I find willingness to apologize being the most empowering and de-escalating choice in a stand off. When I find myself in an argument or misunderstanding in which I don't know what to do, simply offering "I'm sorry" can soften the situation so that both can breathe and slowly move toward reconciliation. "I'm sorry" is a great place to start when you just want to get back to being friends. Often, it's not even necessary to hammer out all of the hows and whys.

She refused to meet with me to talk about things (even when I said I'd be fine with having a third party present). I cannot in all honesty offer an apology if I have NO IDEA what I am apologizing for. And I cannot apologize for saying "shut up" when I know I never did any such thing.

I was, in fact, just a little rude in that I was very upset and allowed my upset to result in my not listening to her as well as I could have. That is a fact. But it was hardly a reason to be banished from her life forever without explanation.

If I owe her an apology, she certainly owes me one as well. And if she feels unsafe, emotionally, do I not have as much reason to feel that way as she? After all, I never closed the door or window to communication. She did.
 
I cannot in all honesty offer an apology if I have NO IDEA what I am apologizing for. And I cannot apologize for saying "shut up" when I know I never did any such thing.....
If I owe her an apology, she certainly owes me one as well. And if she feels unsafe, emotionally, do I not have as much reason to feel that way as she? After all, I never closed the door or window to communication. She did.

This is your relationship and I certainly would never tell you what to do, but I find that in my relationships, if I value moving forward with a friend, I just sometimes have to be willing to offer a no strings apology amidst all of the confusion, hurt feelings and righteous upset. Things tend to sort themselves out after the "I'm sorry"s have been said, even when we have no idea why or how. Just my experience.
 
This is your relationship and I certainly would never tell you what to do, but I find that in my relationships, if I value moving forward with a friend, I just sometimes have to be willing to offer a no strings apology amidst all of the confusion, hurt feelings and righteous upset. Things tend to sort themselves out after the "I'm sorry"s have been said, even when we have no idea why or how. Just my experience.

Well, it's all far too late now. She wants nothing to do with me, and has asked me not to communicate with her at all.

Personally, I feel I was given a raw deal. I'm guilty of being merely human, not of having been egregiously mean or awful -- rude, mean, dangerous....

There's a strange gender issue here, though. The women in here have more often seen me as the one having been basically at fault, insensitive, etc. I can't help wondering if I were female if my words would have been interpreted quite differently. I'm not saying it would be! I'm saying I wonder.

Of course, as far as any of you know, I'm a woman in men's clothing. :p
 
...The women in here have more often seen me as the one having been basically at fault, insensitive, etc.

You're missing the point of the posts if you see fault finding in them. You asked for help and it seems to me that the responses are all about better understanding her perspective and what you might do to turn this around. There's no blame or fault finding that I see. There are some great insights about relationships in general and I've got a new thing or two to think about. It's a good thread!
 
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You're missing the point of the posts if you see fault finding in them. You asked for help and it seems to me that the responses are all about better understanding her perspective and what you might do to turn this around. There's no blame or fault finding that I see. There are some great insights about relationships in general and I've got a new thing or two to think about. It's a good thread!

But I do understand her perspective. She wants me never to contact her or speak with her again. And yet she wants (as she has said in an email -- a fact I've not yet mentioned) to attend rather intimate events which I am the principal organizer of -- in which she apparently expects me to treat her as if none of this has transpired). She, therefore, apparently wants me to be kind and empathetic and sensitive toward her while she's the least bit willing to give me the same courtesy. After all, her deal offer is for me never to speak with her directly -- but she wants to attend the rather intimate events I am offering as a gift to my community.

I know. I failed to mention this fact. It's no small detail, really.

.... You asked for help and it seems to me that the responses are all about better understanding her perspective and what you might do to turn this around.

She asked that I never communicate with her in any way again, but that she be able to attend events organized by (mainly) myself and the organization I co-founded. These are not business meetings, mind you, but intimate gatherings in which people must be vulnerable and open with one another. She apparently wants me to dissociate
myself from her personally while welcoming her into intimate gatherings of which I am a part. All the while, she wants me to know that I told her to "shut up" and that she cannot trust me enough to be in a public space with her without a third party attending to her/us.

The more I put the pieces together, the more I understand how very rude and unkind she is being with me.

I have told her that if she wishes to attend these intimate gatherings which I am offering as a volunteer organizer, she (we together, with her willingness) will have to resolve this problem between us first. I think that's only fair. I also have my own feelings / needs / hurts -- since I too am a human being.
 
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