Sex too soon?

Glad it helped you some.

Sometimes keeping it super simple and "easier to digest" is better when communicating with someone.

1 topic per conversation, and using shorter sentences. In this case, how he shows interest when you ask him out.

I encourage you to work with therapist on more direct conversation and less overthinking. Also asking clarifying questions in the moment.

Cuz when I read that I thought "Why didn't she go 'Could you be willing to clarify? When you say 'some other date' -- Is that letting me down easy that you don't want to go out this week? Or you telling me you need time to check your calendar and you will get back to me tomorrow?"

To ask and solve it in the moment would have saved you all the time spent overthinking it. YKWIM?

Now you have to go back and ask the clarification questions. Which is good, and it gets it solved. But it's the longer way around.

Maybe "more action, less over thinking" could serve you better?

Galagirl

Definitely I need to overthink less. And yes, that is the focus of my therapy right now.

For what it’s worth, it’s really hard to clarify anything in the moment with him because he is a terrible texter. So I can ask him a question and it is totally normal for him to not respond for 24 hours. So if I were to ask him a vulnerable question in the moment when it comes up, it would potentially give me a LOT of time to overthink while I wait for a response.
 
I will gently disagree.

Because when asking him out you were uncertain/confused. And didn't want to show it. Where you could have shown it and gone "I'm confused. When you say "some other date" is that letting me down easy or that you needing time to check your calendar?"

I'm not trying to nitpick here. Just saying... you could become more comfortable showing your feelings to the people in real life that need to see it.

You express your emotions here, but it's like you hold back with the people in your real life.

I organize things as (behavior) then (feelings) because after X behavior, Y feelings ensue.

"I am willing to take initiative and show interest. If I don't get clear signals that interest is reciprocated, I feel vulnerable and uncertain. "

Then it tells you what to do to fix the uncertainty. You need more info to become certain. You could ask clarifying questions.

Galagirl

I think my biggest fear is that he wouldn’t see himself as trying to let me down gently, and might resent that assumption. I think he does want to keep seeing me — he maybe just wants to put in a minimal amount of effort? He likes me and enjoys spending time with me, he has said as much. I don’t think he is actively trying to get rid of me, but he just doesn’t seem to care enough to send a “How is your day going?” text or pull out his calendar and ask me out.

This situation is reminiscent of the uncertainty that I felt with Laptop, and that is feeding my anxieties. Laptop definitely liked me. He definitely enjoyed being physical with me. He definitely enjoyed spending time with me as just friends. But did he like me enough to be honest with me? No. Sure, he liked me enough to not want to hurt me, but not enough to tell me the information that I needed in order to determine whether I wanted to keep seeing him.
 
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You seem to "shrink" yourself a lot based on what you think the other person might say or might feel. Why do you do this?

Whiskers is not Laptop. If you are not fully healed from Laptop? Maybe you are dating again too soon.

Not sex with Whiskers too soon, but just dating too soon period.

For what it’s worth, it’s really hard to clarify anything in the moment with him because he is a terrible texter. So I can ask him a question and it is totally normal for him to not respond for 24 hours. So if I were to ask him a vulnerable question in the moment when it comes up, it would potentially give me a LOT of time to overthink while I wait for a response.

If you know him well enough to know he takes a long time with text? Why ask him out that way? :confused: You have the phone in your hand. CALL. Then at least you also are getting tone of voice for more info. Again... put it out there.

I think my biggest fear is that he wouldn’t see himself as trying to let me down gently, and might resent that assumption.

So? What stops him from solving the assumption and however he feels about that by saying "No, I'm not letting you down gently. I am..."

If he gets super huffy pants at you just because you are seeking clarification rather than simply getting on with the clarifying? What's his problem? He expects mind reader-ing?

Why do you make (management of his feelings) be your job? And your thing to fear? Rather than expecting him to deal with his own feelings? And making your job be assessing dating compatibility?

Like ..."This guy gets supper huffy pants over small stuff like clearing up communication fuzzies and preventing misunderstandings. This is /is not up to my personal dating standard."

I think he does want to keep seeing me — he maybe just wants to put in a minimal amount of effort? He likes me and enjoys spending time with me, he has said as much. I don’t think he is actively trying to get rid of me, but he just doesn’t seem to care enough to send a “How is your day going?” text or pull out his calendar and ask me out.

Are you saying he's a lazy relater? :confused:

You have asked him to send a “How is your day going?” text or pull out his calendar and ask you out sometimes and he says he will but then he doesn't? Fails to follow through?

Is that up to your personal dating standard or not? :confused:

If it turns out Whiskers also is not forthcoming with information? Could end it with him and update your personal dating standard to include "Dating partner must be forthcoming with information when I ask for clarification. I want honest and clear communication from a partner."

If he says he will do something and then doesn't? Could end it with him and update your personal dating standard to include "Dating partner can say "no" to requests. But if he says "yes" and then fails to follow through? After X times I'm done. I want reliable follow through in a partner."

Dating is about finding the compatible people. Some are not even initially compatible. Some that are initially compatible? Are not deeply compatible. Such is the nature of dating.

Whiskers will either make the cut or he doesn't. Get on with figuring it out.

Galagirl
 
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If you know him well enough to know he takes a long time with text? Why ask him out that way? :confused:

You have the phone in your hand. CALL. Then at least you also are getting tone of voice for more info. Again... put it out there.

Oh man. The thought of calling someone on the phone is terrifying. ��I should ask him how he feels about phone communication — everyone I know in my generation/region is terrified of phone calls and always lets it go to voicemail. I suppose not everyone operates that way, but usually the only time I talk on the phone with someone is if we have arranged it via text first.

Why do you make (management of his feelings) be your job? And your thing to fear? Rather than expecting him to deal with his own feelings? And making your job be assessing dating compatibility?

Like "This guy gets supper huffy pants over small stuff like clearing up communication fuzzies and preventing misunderstandings. This is /is not up to my personal dating standard."

Fuck. no, Whiskers has never gotten huffy. I have never seen Whiskers display feelings period, actually.

But fuck...Glasses does get huffy. Glasses getting huffy and pissed off at me because I clarify things calmly and directly is pretty much the hardest part of our communication throughout our marriage. He always apologizes, feels awful for snapping at me, realizes, with a lot of explanation, that I was clarifying and not trying to be bitchy, etc. But his knee-jerk reaction is still to get defensive. And I have learned to tiptoe around and attempt to anticipate his feelings....and that’s why I am such an insecure anxious mess when it comes to relating to Whiskers.

And Ponytail doesn’t get mad at me (like, pretty much ever), but Ponytail definitely has a lot of emotions, and those emotions have an impact on me and so I do put in a fair amount of effort towards trying to be gentle/sensitive/careful with his feelings....

And my dad is the same way — easily offended.

Now I know why my therapist was asking me so much about family dynamics at our last session...

GalaGirl, are you a professional therapist? Or just really insightful?
 
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Not a therapist. Just prefer direct/plain communication. Esp since I deal with the loop-de-loos of Alzheimer care with my dad. Since I deal in those? I don't care to deal with MORE confusion elsewhere in my life from other people. I want direct communication and plain speaking.

If it's gonna go to voicemail anyway? Where's the problem calling to ask him out and just leave a message then? Where is the terror? :confused: To me it shows you have actual serious interest because you took the trouble to call and leave message. Texting? To me that's for low importance stuff. If he thinks that way too? Text is for low level? Cannot be surprised. He could be mirroring your level of perceived interest. You come in low level non-committal text, he reflects low level non-committal back. If you like to text and set up a call? Then do that. But just text for serious stuff? Do not do that.

Best to just ask him directly how he likes to be asked out and explain how you want to be asked out. And what words you would like him to use -- none of this "some other date" vague stuff. Maybe you are used to emotional guys (Glasses blowing up or Ponytail emoting a lot) so Whiskers not showing much emotion is weird to you.

It sounds like having to tiptoe around your dad, Glasses, and Ponytail and manage their things for them is making you think you have to be doing that tiptoe and manage things with everyone. You could stop.

Like the next time Glasses has a cow at you? You can say "No. This is not acceptable behavior. We can talk when you are ready to talk. I will not allow you to blow up at me like that over simple stuff." And leave the room. He can have a cow on his own and calm his own self down.

Next time Ponytail has an emotional thing, rather than helping him deal with all his emotions and figure out a plan, could just tell him "Ok. Let me know when you are ready to talk and you want to tell me your plan" and let him sort it on his own.

It's ok to tell people "No." That is giving them clear communication about where you stand. Everything in the world cannot be "yes." You do not have to be up for everything.

Glasses getting huffy and pissed off at me because I clarify things calmly and directly is pretty much the hardest part of our communication throughout our marriage. He always apologizes, feels awful for snapping at me, realizes, with a lot of explanation, that I was clarifying and not trying to be bitchy, etc. But his knee-jerk reaction is still to get defensive. And I have learned to tiptoe around and attempt to anticipate his feelings....and that’s why I am such an insecure anxious mess when it comes to relating to Whiskers.

So for the whole marriage so far... Both of you just expect the marriage to lump this "hardest part" thing forever?

Glasses is not gonna take personal responsibility and work to fix his defensive listening thing? And improve/heal himself and wherever that learned response may have come from? So the marriage doesn't have this "hardest part" thing to deal with any more?

Both of you just expect him to blow up at you? (This is good manners toward a spouse?)

Both of you expect you to mold yourself around that behavior and pre-manage the volcano so he doesn't blow? Rather than him learn to un-volcano and manage himself?

This is awesome for you how? :confused:

It's ok to be sensitive to other people's feelings. Like you aren't being an asshole to them. But pussy footing around? That's overdoing it. Being over-responsible for people doing their jobs for them? Also overdoing it. It's not your job to make the whole world comfy for everyone else to the point where you are shrinking natural expression of your OWN self. What for? Not fun sounding for you. It doesn't help them become emotionally resilient either.

To me it is like you go backwards. Doing "bonus" before "basics." Where I tell my kids "basics before bonus." I'm gonna take care of ME before helping other people. So NO. I am gonna pee and brush my teeth FIRST in the morning. That is attending to my basics first and totally reasonable self care. Then I will help people find socks and whatever for school. It is NOT gonna be the other way around. Their basics might be basics to them. But to me? They are BONUS. Nothing stops them from trying to attend to their own basics on their own. I even remind them at bedtime to get their things together. If they choose not to? Oh, well. Crazy morning on their part doesn't have to become crazy morning on mine. I am attending to me first, then helping, and if all I got is one red and one white sock? At least it is socks. Get the bus. Get outta here. If everyone did "basics before bonus" everyone has at least one person attending to them -- them!

As for Whiskers? Since he's never gotten huffy and seems pretty laid back? Why not take the chance? Could give this one a chance to be more YOU instead of tiptoe stuff or anxiety stuff or whatever. Be direct, be bold, and be ok taking up the space you do in the world.

So what if it doesn't pan out? There's other people to date. You HAVE been dating other people -- Charles and the woman and whoever else.

But if it does pan out, it might be a RELIEF to get to just be YOU and not always attending to others on tiptoe and overthinking and so on. Wouldn't that be a nice change? To lay those burdens down and not have to do them?

Galagirl
 
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/meet-catch-and-keep/201403/is-constant-texting-good-or-bad-your-relationship

Whiskers and I are from the generation who grew up without texting. So he may be like me texting is ok for quick communication but it is not good for serious communication. You do not get the important subtle ques you get with face to face communication or even phone communication. You cannot hear inflection of voice or etc. Several times Murf or myself have gotten pissed off at the other because we misinterpreted what the other said. I ripped Butch a new one the other day because I felt he was mocking me through text when he was trying to clarify what I was saying. So now I do important conversations in person or phone call. Preferably video call.

Someone people just do not enjoy whimsical banter through text. My 15 yo son doesn't. He finds texting annyoing and impersonal. Last night I heard his disgust as he threw his phone on his bed. He just doesn't enjoy constantly texting with his girlfriend. He would rather talk via voice chat via xbox or discord.
 
I agree. Having a serious conversation through text is a bad idea. My stepdaughter and I have had some pretty hairy arguments because she won't talk on the phone. She and I are both rather sarcastic, so text messaging goes sideways pretty damn fast. If I need to actually talk to her, I will text her first that I'm calling her and I need to actually SPEAK to her.

Just text him and say that you need to speak to him on the phone, sooner rather than later. It will get his attention, anyway.
 
MsEmotional, in some ways your relationship with Whiskers sounds like what I dealt with when I was seeing Facets. He almost never initiated conversations when we weren't together (I can only think of one time he did, and that was to let me know he was running late for an event we were both going to), he sometimes took 2-3 days to respond to a text, he was very hard to read and rarely if ever expressed his feelings. He also never asked if I wanted to get together; I always did the asking, which was extremely hard for me because I don't like asking for things. To be slightly fair to him, he knew that and that was one of the reasons *why* he waited for me to ask, but the other reason was that he just doesn't ask people if they want to get together.

His lack of indication of interest in me, and my "brain weasels" constantly overthinking things when he didn't respond to a text within a day--or within a shorter amount of time if I'd specifically said in the text that it was important, because he said he did *read* the texts when he received them, he just didn't always take the time to answer right away--led to serious problems in the relationship. When I tried to address them with him, he just kind of shrugged and said, "That's how it is." So I get where you're at with Whiskers.

I also understand the anxiety about making a phone call instead of texting. Like Dagferi and Whiskers, I grew up in a generation before texting was a thing, but apparently unlike them, I was thankful as hell when texting became an option, because I could barely tolerate talking in the phone. The only people I call regularly now are my boyfriend, who understands why phone calls are a problem for me, and my mother, who refuses to even attempt to figure out texting or the internet. Everyone else, I text, email, or wait until I see them in person.

But as others have pointed out, some people don't consider texting a viable option for longer conversations, let alone *important* conversations. I agree with powerpuffgirl, if texting is your preferred mode of reaching out to someone and the idea of *making* a call causes you to feel anxious, text him and say you need to talk to him verbally, and ask him to call you or arrange to see you. And I don't know if this would work with him; it did for a while with Facets: if you send him a text and need a relatively quick answer, say so in the text. I usually said something like "This is important. Please let me know when you've read this text, and then answer it as soon as you can." He usually responded with "OK" when he read it, and then followed up within a few hours, so even though I might overthink how he would respond, I at least didn't have to worry about whether he'd gotten the text.
 
I also understand the anxiety about making a phone call instead of texting. Like Dagferi and Whiskers, I grew up in a generation before texting was a thing, but apparently unlike them, I was thankful as hell when texting became an option, because I could barely tolerate talking in the phone. The only people I call regularly now are my boyfriend, who understands why phone calls are a problem for me, and my mother, who refuses to even attempt to figure out texting or the internet. Everyone else, I text, email, or wait until I see them in person.

OMGeebus, yes. I have *never* been a phone person. I didn’t get a cell phone until I was 20 or so, but even before then I never picked up a phone and called people. I remember talking on the phone wirh my first boyfriend (in 8th grade) and wanting to poke my eyes out. It wasn’t that I didn’t like him, but I just hate talking on the phone. It’s not about making calls vs receiving calls (again, I have no problems with initiating contact), it’s just that I hate talking on the phone.

Email, text, or on-person. I think part of it is that I have a really hard time hearing people on the phone — like I need to see what they are saying written out or I need to be able to look at their face and see their mouth moving in order to process information. Maybe I have bad hearing or an auditory processing disorder or something.

I don’t know, but you are all right that just because I strongly prefer texting doesn’t mean that others do. If Whiskers is a no-text or yes-phone person, I’m thinking of proposing the following:

“Let’s not text. Our styles don’t align and it seems to lead to miscommunication. At the end of a date, let’s take a look at our calendars and pick out 4 or 5 possible dates that are currently available and an idea or two for an activity and designate one person to arrange details (movie times, etc), if necessary. Then let’s go home and check in with our respective families about those dates. Each of us responds via email with the dates that work for us. We go with whatever date has mutual overlap. Other than that, let’s agree to keep text chit-chat to a minimum in-between dates and just wait to see each other in person.”
 
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I'm 63 so we barely even had phones. I kid. We had phones. I still prefer texting nowadays.

I do not attempt serious relationship talks on phone or text however. And the idea of Skype makes me ill. Ugh. My face on a screen? No thank you!

For serious relationship talks I gotta do face to face. Body language and nearness and the ability to touch are necessary.

But I do like texting chit chat from a person I am dating. If we only get together 2-4 times a month, I find texting pleasantly helps keep us bonded. And if I don't hear from a guy often enough, I start to feel distant, and then I don't want to have sex with him.

If I find a guy who likes to text every day for a few minutes, I feel like I hit gold.
 
Email, text, or on-person. I think part of it is that I have a really hard time hearing people on the phone — like I need to see what they are saying written out or I need to be able to look at their face and see their mouth moving in order to process information. Maybe I have bad hearing or an auditory processing disorder or something.

That bolded bit is exactly what it is for me. I have a difficulty comprehending what someone says to me; there's a glitch somewhere between my ears and my brain that prevents some information from getting where it needs to go. (In other words, an auditory processing disorder; the previous is how I explained it to a couple of students when I taught special ed.) I also have a hard time filtering out background noise, especially other voices, so I can focus on what the person I'm talking to is saying. It's somewhat easier when I can look at the person who's speaking, though even then I don't catch everything they say. When there's no visual input with the person who's speaking, I often have to close my eyes to shut out any visual distractions and concentrate intently to be able to take in what the other person is saying.

Couple that with a history of people, from the time I was little, getting angry or upset with me if I didn't answer them fast enough or asked them to repeat what they'd said, because they couldn't or didn't want to understand that I needed a few extra seconds to process what they were saying, and then several more seconds to put words together in a way that would make sense (I have some expressive language difficulties as well), which leads me to be anxious before I even pick up the phone because I know I'm going to miss something the other person says, and I'm afraid it will be something important and/or they'll get pissed off. So you can see why phone calls are sheer hell for me, and are definitely not my preferred way to have a serious discussion about anything.

With my boyfriend, who's the person with whom I'm most likely to need to have a serious discussion, I have a morning check-in phone call on weekdays. Sometimes things come up during that and I just kind of spew them out. That obviously doesn't work well, and results in both of us escalating, especially since verbal communication is by far his strength while it's my weakest area, so sometimes, especially if I'm already emotional about the topic, I can't manage to express myself clearly, and he keeps talking and responding to something I didn't actually say, because he misinterprets what I did say. And then as my emotions escalate, I'm having an even harder time expressing myself and processing what he says.

Meanwhile, he isn't a fan of texting and doesn't like reading long emails. His preferred way of handling problems is a back and forth verbal conversation.

So what I've learned to do for serious topics that seems to work for both of us is I'll write a long email detailing the problem, then go back to the beginning of the email and do a bullet list of the major points. Below the list, I'll say, "You don't have to read further unless you want to; we can discuss this when we see each other." Sometimes, if I know we won't see each other for several more days, I'll instead say we can discuss it during our morning phone call, though obviously I don't prefer that. Then during our call, or sometimes via text, I'll say, "I've sent you an email, please at least read the top part."

Sending him the email serves three purposes: It gives him a heads-up about the topic we'll be discussing, so he can think it through before we talk; it gives me sort of a "script" to read from if I start getting stuck for words when we're talking; and it gives us both a record of the discussion to refer back to if we find out later that one of us misinterpreted what the other said or one of us has forgotten the conversation. (Sometimes I'll even send a follow-up email detailing *his* side of the discussion, partly so I can make sure I understood him right and partly so, again, we'll have a record of it.)

I don't know if something like that would work for you in communicating with any of your partners, but even though it adds some work for me, it's worth it because of how well it's worked to address and correct some of the communication issues my boyfriend and I have.

I think your suggestion of what to say to Whiskers is a good one, but give him a chance first to tell you himself what he prefers for communication. (I know you probably would, just reinforcing it.)
 
Update!

It went well! I feel so much better when I am with him in person that I nearly talked myself out of the conversation, telling myself it wasn’t necessary, etc. But then I remembered that if I didn’t talk to him about this now, the insecurity would just build up again.....

I brought it up by just asking how he feels about texting. He told me that it is his preferred method of communication (which surprised me!) and went on to explain why he likes texting better than email or phone calls. Then, perhaps sensing why I was asking, he said that he felt like he had been dropping the ball as far as texting with me.

It was a nice chat. I explained some of my feelings and he said that now, seeing things from my perspective, he could see how it would be confusing and not feel great. He went on to tell me some of the things he especially likes about me. I asked him point blank if he wanted to continue seeing each other every couple weeks and he said he did and so I suggested my idea of planning the next date at the end of a given date so that we don’t have to awkwardly try to plan dates via text messaging. He liked that idea and so we went with it.

I didn’t bring up my idea of eliminating texting. That seemed to not be a great idea since he had said texting was his preferred method of communication (and it is mine too) and it seemed like simply acknowledging the issue is all that is needed right now. He thanked me for bringing it up, too.

So — yay! Thank you all for all your help.
 
So the take away from all this seems to be...

1) Clear things up faster, rather than waiting and overthinking yourself into insecurities

2) Be bold and just talk in person about serious stuff. (Do NOT talk yourself out of doing it because you feel scared to do it.)

3) At the end of the date, plan the next one

4) Continue to use text, but with new knowledge.

5) Remember he doesn't go huffy pants or have a cow about things like your other partners so you do NOT have to go around on tiptoe or be fearful.

6) He actually appreciates you bringing things up and thanks you.

See? No doom. :)

Hopefully that gives you more confidence for the next time something pops up with him. You can resolve it much quicker and with less fearfulness.

I strongly encourage you to be more "you" in this relationship and less "tiptoe you" like you have been with past partners. Whether or not this is long term with Whiskers, you may find it refreshing/healing to not be shrinking yourself so much/scared all the time.

Galagirl
 
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That bolded bit is exactly what it is for me. I have a difficulty comprehending what someone says to me; there's a glitch somewhere between my ears and my brain that prevents some information from getting where it needs to go. (In other words, an auditory processing disorder; the previous is how I explained it to a couple of students when I taught special ed.) I also have a hard time filtering out background noise, especially other voices, so I can focus on what the person I'm talking to is saying. It's somewhat easier when I can look at the person who's speaking, though even then I don't catch everything they say. When there's no visual input with the person who's speaking, I often have to close my eyes to shut out any visual distractions and concentrate intently to be able to take in what the other person is saying.

Couple that with a history of people, from the time I was little, getting angry or upset with me if I didn't answer them fast enough or asked them to repeat what they'd said, because they couldn't or didn't want to understand that I needed a few extra seconds to process what they were saying, and then several more seconds to put words together in a way that would make sense (I have some expressive language difficulties as well), which leads me to be anxious before I even pick up the phone because I know I'm going to miss something the other person says, and I'm afraid it will be something important and/or they'll get pissed off. So you can see why phone calls are sheer hell for me, and are definitely not my preferred way to have a serious discussion about anything.

With my boyfriend, who's the person with whom I'm most likely to need to have a serious discussion, I have a morning check-in phone call on weekdays. Sometimes things come up during that and I just kind of spew them out. That obviously doesn't work well, and results in both of us escalating, especially since verbal communication is by far his strength while it's my weakest area, so sometimes, especially if I'm already emotional about the topic, I can't manage to express myself clearly, and he keeps talking and responding to something I didn't actually say, because he misinterprets what I did say. And then as my emotions escalate, I'm having an even harder time expressing myself and processing what he says.

Meanwhile, he isn't a fan of texting and doesn't like reading long emails. His preferred way of handling problems is a back and forth verbal conversation.

So what I've learned to do for serious topics that seems to work for both of us is I'll write a long email detailing the problem, then go back to the beginning of the email and do a bullet list of the major points. Below the list, I'll say, "You don't have to read further unless you want to; we can discuss this when we see each other." Sometimes, if I know we won't see each other for several more days, I'll instead say we can discuss it during our morning phone call, though obviously I don't prefer that. Then during our call, or sometimes via text, I'll say, "I've sent you an email, please at least read the top part."

Sending him the email serves three purposes: It gives him a heads-up about the topic we'll be discussing, so he can think it through before we talk; it gives me sort of a "script" to read from if I start getting stuck for words when we're talking; and it gives us both a record of the discussion to refer back to if we find out later that one of us misinterpreted what the other said or one of us has forgotten the conversation. (Sometimes I'll even send a follow-up email detailing *his* side of the discussion, partly so I can make sure I understood him right and partly so, again, we'll have a record of it.)

I don't know if something like that would work for you in communicating with any of your partners, but even though it adds some work for me, it's worth it because of how well it's worked to address and correct some of the communication issues my boyfriend and I have.

I think your suggestion of what to say to Whiskers is a good one, but give him a chance first to tell you himself what he prefers for communication. (I know you probably would, just reinforcing it.)

This was awesome. Pixi also hates phone... for the same reasons.
 
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