Tired poly, but I think it may just be over...

You can't read your wife's or girlfriend's minds, so you need them to tell you whether you should talk to them and what they'd want you to talk about. Perhaps you could write a pair of letters or emails, saying you'd like to talk but you don't want to cause any problems either, so could they come to you when they're ready to talk and you'll follow their lead as far as the topic of the conversation is concerned.

I think you should be careful to be fair and merciful to *all three* people here: your wife, her girlfriend, *and yourself.* Generosity is all well and good but in my opinion part of a healthy ethical code is being kind to yourself. Otherwise, what model do you have for being kind to others? So don't let this evolve into a situation where you're a doormat and constantly throwing yourself on the other two people's altar because they've left eggshells everywhere. Let them take a turn at figuring out what they want, while you take a break from those relationships and rebuild some of your self-esteem.

I feel that you're getting kind of a bum deal here, getting pushed into the middle of their drama and becoming the rope in their tug of war. All you're asking for is a taste of the marriage you signed up for originally, your wife is withholding that, and her girlfriend is making things worse. Maybe they both have some growing up to do?

Starting over at 40 would suck, but ending all the meaningful parts of your own life at 40 would suck even worse. You need to get some joy and confidence back into your personal life. Don't ride your wife's Titanic right into an iceberg, let her steer her own ship as she will. She can let you know if she's still willing to be a wife to you.

Sorry I have no magical advice that would whisk all of the pain away. You only get to choose your own actions, and the women get to choose theirs. I don't mean to go all "divorce" on you but it seems like you might have already passed the event horizon and divorce is now in your future. I would at least try to start mentally preparing myself for that possibility.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I am very sorry you deal in all this. :(

I am confused by the order of some of these quotes as the appear in your writing. :confused: Could you be willing to clarify some things? I am going to take a stab in the dark and rearrange them. Is this more the order you meant it in? Blue words mine.

The two of us (me and wife) haven't gone out alone as a couple since before this all started and it makes me very sad. I've mentioned it to her but she just says things like I'm trying to make her feel guilty, or that we'll do something soon...

I'm getting very little attention and the wife refuses to schedule nights at all, so I don't know what to do there, just keep trying to find stuff to do.

Right now, at my suggestion, my wife spends most of her nights with the GF, and I'm getting better at staying alone, because I want them to find out if they are really meant to be together.

I get this vibe of "Since she won't work with me here anyway, I may as well let her do whatever on that side of the V. Figure out if she's a lesbian and dumping me or what. I am less than thrilled with how all this has been playing out."

Is that where this is? :confused:

I would not be in a rush to date right now or flirt. I get the need for connection -- reach out to supportive friends and family.

My opinion? The LAST thing this mess needs is some OTHER person entering the stage. YKWIM? You would be offering what as a dating partner? Messed up man? Healthy people would not touch this with a 10 ft pole. People who WOULD take it up? Are messed up themselves. Maybe messed up worse.

I think this situation needs a period of calm, even if waiting in limbo is not comfy. One does not major life decisions like divorce after some fling and a few months or while under duress. Do your self care, give yourself some time, and you come to decide what is best for YOU. Not what wife wants, not what GF wants. Your top 3 scenarios for ok, better & best case outcome.

she says her favorite time with me is watching television and being lazy which is fine, but shouldn't having a wife mean that I should get to go out with her alone in public once in a while?

And... do you actually spend time together watching television being lazy like an in house date? Doesn't sound like it. :(

Is it reasonable to take turns on who picks the date activity? Sure. Most couples do in some fashion. Regardless of activity (in house movie date) or (out of house dinner date) the relationship needs time together to happen IN. Some kind of back and forth relating going on during time spent together.

I get the vibe you would like to know if she DOES stay in the marriage... it is because she actually wants to be with you. Not because you are "better than being left alone." What are you? Leftovers? Nobody being treated "less than" or without dignity. :(

I'm afraid to talk to the GF now because I feel anything could upset the delicate balance we've struck.

You don't have to do it this minute if you all need a break. But eventually you do have to talk to them both. How would things resolve with zero communication. :confused: It would not.

I feel sort of betrayed by my two best friends right now... is that wrong? It really makes me feel like there's something wrong with me.

I think you could mean you are disappointed in some of their behaviors and in the general situation overall. It went from (friends) to (maybe triad) to (maybe V) to (maybe divorce) to (maybe not divorce) to (no answer yet land.)

It is not wrong to feel sad/disappointed/weird/strange in this situation. It is appropriate for the situation you are in to feel all discombobulated. You don't have clear answers right now. You are very human and allowed to feel the full range of human emotions. Some are fun to feel. Some just are not fun to feel.

I want to talk to them about it, sure. But (I worry) that I'll come off weak and whiny. (I worry) the GF will break up with her again. (I worry) that none of us can handle it right now.

I took the liberty of listing your things as worries. I notice you sometimes used "feel" where I would used "think." And worries are thoughts.

What worries you about communicating? What would make you "weak and whiny?"
What worries you about them breaking up? That Wife will do what? Or GF will do what? That will affect you how?
What will happen that will not be handled by... you? Wife? GF?

Maybe talking it out helps calm you down about it so it is less scary or worrisome? :confused:

I think you could ask for a time to talk, like make an appointment at a clear date in future. Then wait for the time to come and sort it out. Then it is not indefinite limbo. It's a time out, and a clear time to come back to the table. In the waiting time you could gather your thoughts together. If you need help doing that you could ask for help here or with a good friend or counselor in RL.

Having basic human needs is NOT the same as being a whiny, needy Cling On type person. We all have needs:

http://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory

They are being met at this time or not being met at this time.

People are not minder readers -- it is your JOB to report on how you are doing to your people. How else would they know how you are doing? They cannot guess from the sky. You could be doing your part of the communication job rather than staying silent. Being "generous to a fault" is not a compliment. It is actually a fault -- to meet other people needs while neglecting your own self care. :(

"Selfish -- me! Me! Forget other people!"
"Selfless -- other people, other people! Forget about me!"

Those are the skewed ends of the see-saw.

"Self full" is the balanced place in the middle where you meet your own needs first, so you are then able to GIFT to others and help meet some of their needs. BOTH your needs and other people's get some attention.

Again I am sorry you struggle with all this. :(

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks for the quick response and advice. I have lost a lot of my identity, as you said... I thought I was a loving and loved husband in a very popular couple and now I am the secondary relationship, which is so confusing to my ego. I am trying to deal with the pain without hurting my wife, not always possible, but I don't like to see her hurt either.

After reading your post though, a question occurred to me. As a former "unicorn" yourself, in a similar situation to our GF, what do you suggest I talk to her about... we haven't talked much lately because the nerves are a bit raw, and I feel uncomfortable about what to even say to her.

What sort of things should I discuss with her when we have the chance? I'm just thinking that you might have a much better handle on this than I, having had experience in this area from the other side. I'm sure there are more of you here too, give me some ideas. I really hope that our friendship isn't ruined, but things are so tense right now... it's hard to predict.

Thanks.

It's a tough question for me to answer, because unlike your wife's gf, I had no problem with poly. I had no desire to be alone with only one of them. It wasn't me who was unhappy; it was the wife who decided suddenly that she couldn't be poly.

Your wife's gf has painted everyone into a corner: she won't be with the wife if you two break up, but she has no desire to be poly. So instead, she monopolizes all of your wife's time, but feels her conscious is clear because she didn't ask your wife to divorce you? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am sorry I can't be much help in regard to your question. After my experience with the waffling, the indecision, the slow exclusion, the continual distortion of reality, I don't have a lot of patience with that kind of insecurity.

Do you have any mutual interests? Music? Movies? Anything generic? Maybe just talking about non-threatening, mundane stuff would be a good place to start?
 
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The only other thing that might give you some insight, although it doesn't sound like it was much in play with you and your wife, is to google the term, "couple privilege." Maybe it will elucidate some of the gf's fears - founded or not.
 
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Wow... you all have given me a lot to think about here.

To start off with, I don't know that the "event horizon" has been crossed but I think in my mind, I have started to prepare myself for the possibility of divorce which is probably where the flirting/dating other people thing comes from. I do understand that I might be sorta damaged goods right now, so I may flirt, but I'll try to keep it to that at least until I have settled my own situation a lot more than I have. There might have been some panic in my dating ideas. I hope that the divorce line has not been crossed... I love my wife and I do believe that she loves me as well and we've had a good relationship for a long time, so if we can work with the GF, I'll do what I can to save it within reason.

Unfortunately, I do a lot of these posts when I'm distraught, so I make logic errors and spelling errors, hence the original thread being "Tired polyamory" instead of "Tried polyamory"... But I'll try to reiterate. I am disappointed that my wife and I don't go out as a couple anymore, when she is home, we usually sit around and watch our favorite shows and do our normal "chores" and such, talk, etc. but we have not gone out without the GF being there since this started with the exception of one company picnic which we left early.

I am willing currently to give the GF more time because she has been panicking whenever she is alone and throwing everything into chaos with cryptic facebook posts and sometimes drunken texts to my wife. I do not approve of these things, but I cannot stop them and I've told the wife that I don't like them as well, as diplomatically as I could and she even agreed but because of their current connection, she forgives about anything the GF does which makes things tough for me. I am on the Titanic, so to speak, but I have a lifeboat ready... or at least, I hope I do.

The wife actually messaged me tonight, apologizing for leaving earlier than she expected today and said she would make it up to my by spending the day with me tomorrow, including perhaps going out... wow, it's a start but I almost hate that it makes me so happy to be able to go out with her.

I read the article about couple privilege and I do see a few mistakes we made there, but we honestly went into this whole thing unexpectedly and almost blind. I've been reading and trying but finding the whole picture takes a while and it's amazing how many of the pitfalls we've fallen into, but apparently most do. We started off this whole thing by having an unexpected threesome and we kind of kept the idea that that would continue and the GF never objected, but in fact encouraged the whole thing. The wife was the first to start to reject the idea, I think as they were falling more in love with each other, and then the GF also seemed to go against it, which is fine, I'll remember the times we had and cherish them. To clarify, the GF and I never had actual intercourse, it was mostly touching and kissing type stuff.

I also was upset at the two of them for coming out of the closet before I was really ready to... It was only a couple of weeks and I wanted to be sure it was going to stick before letting everyone know, but we talked through that one. The only exception was the wife and my work because we are in a conservative area and actually afraid we could lose our jobs over polyamory.

The reason I always feel weak when we talk is because I tend to get very tongue tied and actually cry when I talk about things this close to the heart and the GF does too. We are actually a lot alike in many ways and that's probably why the wife loves us both. I feel that I often lose my way in a conversation because of this, but it doesn't mean that I'm not willing to try it anyway. I know we have to talk if we're going to have anything here.

I think lastly, for now at least, I understand what you all are saying about me making sure that my needs are met and I really don't think that I have a lot of them. I'll talk to the wife about this first and maybe she'll at least work on it. I'm not expecting her to be perfect, but some gestures will help. Also, our new situation is only a couple weeks old... which to me seems like an eternity, but it's not that much time. I am willing to give up more of my wife's time to keep the GF around for now, because they both want it and I want my wife to be happy and this is something that is giving her great joy... I guess that's compersion for you, right? But it's true and I hope that some point in the future, we'll all look back and laugh at these problems and have a big three-way hug.

It's a bit in the air now and I think we're all confused, so I'm going to be patient and we'll talk at our own pace and do the best we can.

Thanks again, you all help me so much.
 
Seems like you're dealing with the issues as best you can. Sometimes just giving something some time can help.

Weird idea: Any chance this could end up as a V with the girlfriend as a hinge, romantically connected with both you and your wife but with you and your wife transitioned into a platonic marriage? It was actually a question I wondered about early on in the thread.
 
Seems like you're dealing with the issues as best you can. Sometimes just giving something some time can help.

Weird idea: Any chance this could end up as a V with the girlfriend as a hinge, romantically connected with both you and your wife but with you and your wife transitioned into a platonic marriage? It was actually a question I wondered about early on in the thread.

Nice idea but I really doubt it at this point, the initial attraction was between the two of them and they've grown closer and closer as I've been moved farther and farther out. I'm not even sure that the wife would want to platonic relationship, she does claim and seem to enjoy it when we have sex... time will tell.

I never did talk to the GF this weekend but I got a bit of information from the wife... the GF does not want to be in a polyamorous relationship anymore, period. However, she loves my wife too much to leave and she realizes that the wife and I still have our relationship. I then asked, "Doesn't she realize that this is still a polyamorous relationship?" The wife said, "Yeah, but I guess she isn't going to acknowledge the fact that it is." I responded, "Does she want this to be an affair then?" "No, I don't think so."

WTF, I guess she's now in denial... and the GF tells me she misses me and wants to hang out again. I mean, sure, I'm going to try but how will this not be uncomfortable?

Oh well, my ball continues to bounce. Maybe someday I can write a novel about all of this?
 
Sure, they could position the novel in the "drama" section. :)

Though it's easier said than done, I would try to separate myself from how the girlfriend wants to handle the word "polyamory" and her perception of it. Let her do what she needs to do as long as it doesn't ding your relationship with your wife. And one good thing about you and the girlfriend being friends is you might be able to eventually ask her some questions about how the whole dynamic works in her mind. If she wants to call it "monogamy," I guess that's her privilege. Just like I could call my cat a chair if I wanted. Doesn't make sense in the dictionary but people can indulge my quirky terminology if it doesn't affect them in any particularly bad way.

Sounds like the main thing for right now is to continue to try to keep patching things up with your wife.
 
I am not saying the gf is a bad person; it sounds like she thought she could cope with poly, but then couldn't. Problem is she isn't dealing in reality. She can pretend she is in a monogamous relationship all she wants, but you're going to be a hell of a source of cognitive dissonance. This will ultimately be unsustainable.
 
LOL, thank you for the "I can call a cat a chair" comment, it actually made me laugh, which is very nice at the moment.

I have to agree, what she calls it is her issue, not mine... some of the biggest problem with this situation is that I'm the only one with no NRE going on so my brain is the only one that uses mostly logic while theirs are running on umm, love juice? Oh well, right now I let time go by for a while and see where things go.

I do agree with you Bookbug, I don't think it can go on forever with her thinking that way, but for now, I'll just have to let her have her coping mechanism. Sometimes time will allow your brain to adjust to an idea that you initially reject, so we'll see.

The GF is going through a lot with having a very sick parent whom she is helping out as well. It really probably wasn't the best time to try to start a relationship like this with us all being poly-virgins. or probably even if we weren't. It was not planned but once the genie was out of the bottle, there was no putting it back in.
 
I can imagine more than one way this could all turn south, but I don't think there's a lot you can do to stave all that off at the moment. A lot here will depend on how loyal your wife is to you and your marriage with her, in case her girlfriend goes all cowgirl on you and tries to lasso your wife away. I hope that won't happen but who knows at this point.
 
I can imagine more than one way this could all turn south, but I don't think there's a lot you can do to stave all that off at the moment. A lot here will depend on how loyal your wife is to you and your marriage with her, in case her girlfriend goes all cowgirl on you and tries to lasso your wife away. I hope that won't happen but who knows at this point.

Believe me, I imagine all the ways that things can turn south, constantly! I am however in love enough with my wife to try to help things work out.

Honestly, my wife and I seem fine. When she's home, we're good together and when she's out, I've gotten back into my old hobbies a bit and the separation time is getting easier for me. For now, our sex life even seems pretty normal.

I do think my biggest problem at the moment is the GF and my relationship with her. Obviously, we've hit a rough spot and I'm not sure how to fix it. I hope that time will help - I'm not trying to force anything. This whole thing put us in a bit of a competition with each other that we didn't know how to handle, so I really don't blame her for feeling the way she does.

I'm not sure if she understands this, and I'm not 100% sure that I understand it, but I feel like she actually broke up with me. When she says that she doesn't want a polyamorous relationship but does want to have one with the wife... I just feel that that means she doesn't want to have one with me. I'm not sure if she just thinks it is about a physical relationship, or what, because she still wants to be friends with me, and we're trying. We hang out together and talk on social media and such, but it's not the same between us as before. I don't know.

Who would have ever thought that a polyamorous relationship could be complicated, hehe. I guess just wish me luck and I'll keep on scouring this post and similar ones for bits of insight.

Thanks again, as always, all of you have really helped me through all of this and I can't thank you enough.
 
Good ju-ju, on the way! :)

I'm sure your relationship with the girlfriend has, of necessity, changed. You can't do much about that because these are her decisions. If you can keep things friendly between you and her, that's probably the best you can do.

Seems like you're handling things pretty well.
 
Well, for anyone following my story, if there is anyone... the wife told me that she wants us to separate. Nothing I can do to stop it.

I have nothing against polyamory but I feel that the wife and her GF used it to gradually move farther and farther away from me until all she needed to do was cut the final thread. It was probably a bad sign that I was always the one trying to say how other people were successful at getting polyamory to work and they would shake their heads affirmatively and then just do what they wanted with no regard for me.

There's still a lot that we have together so I'm not going to be able to avoid the wife... I can't stand to be around my "friend" the GF right now... I hope I don't see her because I might have a few words for her about what she did to my life.

Thanks for all the support and good feelings you've given me as I went through this difficult time... well, it's still difficult, I can't just stop loving my wife and it tears me up that this happened to us. Wish me luck as I try to move on with my life and maybe find that right person for me somewhere down the line.
 
Luck is wished for you to be able to find a special someone who will stand by your side and do so faithfully and dependably.

Alas, polyamory doesn't always do good things to people's lives. Heck in this case I feel like it was almost used as a mechanism to cleverly transition someone (your wife) from one monogamous unit to another.

I'm sure you will be struggling with pain for a long time, and I won't try to blow sunshine up your butt. Just know that we're hear to listen whenever you need to vent, or get further advice, or whatever you need.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I am so sorry. :( I agree it almost sounded like "exit strategy" rather than "in good faith effort" but that is neither here nor there at this point. At this point it is a split.

I hope healing comes for you soon after you transition through this change.

Galagirl
 
Whenever I hear about jealousy or insecurity, I smell trouble as those were the warning signs for all of our friends that played with others outside of their marriage. My wife is bisexual and her best girlfriend has been a big part of our life for the last 38 years of our marriage. My wife does not prefer one sex over the other. She is into the person and not their gender.

My first fiancée ended up living with a woman. Turns out that she was not bisexual as we thought, but a lesbian. I got a Dear John letter in Vietnam. She said that she was sexually confused. Nothing you can do if your woman is only sexually attracted to women. She did not say that she loved me but was not in love with me. She said that she preferred women sexually and it was not fair to me if we got married.

It is possible that your wife may just have fallen in love with her girlfriend. Women tend to form emotional bonds with their sex partners. Men find their mistresses more appealing the same way a woman can. They only are together for the fun and games and do not have to deal with the daily bullshit that life entails. The grass is always greener and all that. Just look at the high divorce rate these days.

Divorce is not the terrible shameful thing it used to be. Living among others into alternate lifestyles showed us an interesting thing. Most couples were divorced and remarried multiple times. Seem that few could resist the lure of a lover outside of their marriage. Despite my lifestyle, I recommend to others not to bring someone else into your marriage because, while it may work, the odds are against you. Never judge anything by what you read on the internet. More people post about doing things than actually do them. If you believe internet forums, everyone is into cuckolding with black men with huge cocks and loving it. Just try to find an old cuckold couple. They do not exist because marriage without sexual fidelity, a major component of marriage, does not seem to work out for most couples. This goes for open relationships and even poly marriages. Just read all the post here that talk about insecurity and jealousy and the problems like you describe. That is real life, not the fantasy stuff many people post about. You play with fire when you follow the least travelled road. Hope it works out for you but do not take it personally if your wife truly is a lesbian. It is not anyone's fault. I know way too many married couples whose spouses came out well into their marriage. In fact, I know too many people who are not into vanilla lives and yet moved into one of the most conservative places in America. Most are very religious and never talk about sex. Judging by what the guys tell me, there is not much to talk about. :)
 
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