Looking for Resonance on an Unfortunate Turn of Events

Weird, I had this page open last night, and refreshed before I responded, but I still missed out on Spork's and NYCindie's responses and the ensuing back and forth.

Things are even worse than I thought. She had sex with her young student/protegee? Eep. Boundary issues. Her mom comes over uninvited and "does laundry" (a recurring theme) as a cover for snooping? And her mom is a narcissist (or perhaps even has Borderline Personality Disorder)? And BOTH grandmas are planning major holidays at Nukes' place? What the hell, don't these women have their own homes and lives? They are living their lives through Nukes! And she's living a lie, adding to the horror of having no privacy.

It sounds like Nukes has a VERY messed up family, and is very messed up herself, and you are white knighting her. But your own needs for security and sex have led to you feeling underserved sexually and emotionally... Adding to Nukes' stress.

I am waiting for FF's post(s). She seems a bit out of the loop.

My gut is saying you and FF should move out, step back as lovers, strongly encourage Nukes to get therapy, and hope she grows a set and changes the locks and doesn't allow her relatives to push themselves into her house and life so inappropriately.

Therapy is what she needs, not a secret relationship with a married man and his wife. And not to put it all on Nukes: I question both you and FF's judgment in selling all you own and moving in with no lease agreement, knowing Nukes' family and work situation. (Silly transparent stories about lacking air conditioning! Come on.) What were you thinking? I know you all are only late 20 somethings, so your brains have not matured. (No judgment, I remember what I was like then, yikes.) So you might have all been thinking a bit too much with the little brains between your legs. Time to take a few good steps back and use the brains between your ears.
 
So I'd respectfully suggest care in using wording like "ground rules."

It is absolutely something worth noting. The use of "ground rules" was more for the guy than for Nukes. We all three discussed what we were and weren't okay with if she wanted to continue seeing him. However, on that note... Last night Nukes and I talked again and she said that she actually had no intention of continuing with him. According to her she didn't and doesn't want to see him again, but said she did because it was already a tense conversation and she wanted to see where the line was. (Not sure that I understand this... But that is what she said.)

I also think that it's simply unrealistic to expect or insist on polyfidelity from the get-go.

There are a good number of responses which have said something similar, so I feel like I really need to address this. There was no insistence from any involved party that we be polyfidelitous. It was something that all three of us wanted jointly. As in, we all three independently said that we did not want to consider bringing another person into our relationship, but were open to the others doing so if they wished. We as a group have on multiple occasions agreed that taking on a secondary or bringing another person into the relationship is something which is open for discussion; however, none of us have moved to do so.

Date her, don't start making rules about whether she can see someone else or not; you don't own her.

I completely understand what you are trying to get at with this, but I am finding it really hard not to be offended by the connotation. Nukes does not have any rules that have been foisted upon her. The only reason why Nukes isn't seeing anyone else is because she is choosing to do so.

First of all, I am glad you and FF are moving out again. I am sorry you sold most of your stuff! Lesson learned can be, do not move in with a new lover in the rush of NRE. I'd say, most of the time, people come to regret that (there are very rare exceptions, but it's more luck than anything else).

FF's grandfather always tells us that there is no lesson worth learning that isn't either expensive or exquisitely painful. :p

Once she feels less nervous about that, she may relax and become more sexually responsive. Perhaps. But a good once a week session still may be all she is up for. Can you handle that? Her NRE seems to be fading in the midst of all the sneaking around and opposition, and your jealousy of a fantasy. Often sex becomes less frequent once NRE fades.

Her anxiety about being found out by her family and coworkers has been there from close to the beginning. We we first started she said that she was perfectly fine to be open about the relationship (except with her family) if we wanted to, but in her experience most people are not receptive and there is often judgement. It become apparent very quickly that being open about the relationship wasn't something that she was actually comfortable with and as we continued more was explained to us about why she needed to hide her relationship at work.

Honestly, we never had NRE fueled sex. What I am trying to say is that there hasn't really been a decrease as much as it just never really took off. Nukes describes herself as a very sexual and sensual person who is normally the sexual aggressor; however, her and I have engaged 13 times in the 6 months that we've been together. I am hoping that us moving out will indeed lower her stress level... I guess we'll see.

I am waiting for FF's post(s). She seems a bit out of the loop.

She apologizes for being so silent. She is normally quite vocal. :D FF doesn't want to write at work and the evenings have been full; however, she desperately wants to write and will hopefully do so tonight. For what it is worth, she has been reading everything.

I question both you and FF's judgment in selling all you own and moving in with no lease agreement, knowing Nukes' family and work situation. What were you thinking? I know you all are only late 20 somethings, so your brains have not matured. (No judgment, I remember what I was like then, yikes.) So you might have all been thinking a bit too much with the little brains between your legs. Time to take a few good steps back and use the brains between your ears.

That is a fair question. We were all aware that her mother would be an issue; however, FF and I were not fully aware of how important not disappointing her grandmothers was to her and we all did not realize that her mother would work so quickly at rallying the family behind her. Nukes said that she did expect her grandmothers to eventually say something (again FF and I were unaware of how important their views are to Nukes) probably in January or February; however, at that point she figured that she could simply point out that we'd been living there for a while and that she liked having us there.

FF and I are both extremely inexperienced in dating. I dated one girl and high school for a year and a half and then FF. FF had two boyfriends in high school but they were very short term (1-3 months) and not serious. The two of us handled moving in with Nukes the same way that we handled each other, which was to place trust and jump in. There is a whole long story there about FF and I and how we came to be... But jumping in worked for the two of us and we saw no reason not to do the same with Nukes.
 
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Ahh....impetuous youth.

Yeah, so I get being "new to dating." Also, anything you did in high school is NOT any kind of learning or training for stuff you do as an adult.

Like I messed around with tons of people in high school, but I was new to the entire notion of escalation. Specifically, you have to be damn careful letting someone move in with you, because there is a chance you might decide it's not a good idea and then it's brutally hard to get rid of them. Especially if you have boundary issues and a hard time saying no.

And I had no idea what I was getting into, and I got pregnant, and boom...life as I knew it was over before I ever got to be a single young person. So I never learned how to date as an adult either. And after my divorce I was just as clueless...but I've tried to be SOMEWHAT more careful. Ish.

I dunno. I know folks who treat it all like a big game. Not knowing where you'll live next month? No biggie, something will pan out. Unemployment? Meh. Somebody will buy dinner. Bills? Eh, I forgot. Whatevs. I'll catch it on Friday. That would be one extreme. And then there is the other extreme of someone like I became...all of these things are Sacred and Not To Be Fucked With. Which means "place trust and jump in" would be completely impossible. How do you know she won't steal your identity, or someone she lets to come in and do laundry won't? How do you know that BAD THINGS WON'T HAPPEN?? I just could not even.

Like I've known my beloved Sadist, Zen, for over a year...we've been lovers going strong for 11 months, and I'm stressing over whether living together sometime next Spring is wise or I should wait another year after that...

And furthermore, the fact that you sold all of your stuff and moved in with a "financially independent" young woman with no agreement to specifically pay rent...and her family is worried... The easy impression to get is that you two were struggling and this seemed like a good move for YOU, and that maybe her family is right in worrying that you're taking advantage, and maybe she has been taken advantage of by others....?

I like you, Mr. Pants, and FF as well, but I am not afraid to ask the question.

And to older adults, looking at this situation from the outside, such as her parents...whatever you have in your mind to argue back at me how this is NOT what has happened...is probably not something that they are seeing. What they are seeing, these family members, is a womanchild who can't manage without their intervention and protective behavior, who lets a married couple move in and take over her house. And the fact that they STAND TO GAIN by doing this supposedly altruistic management of her affairs "for her" means it's probably soooo easy to justify jumping in and getting involved.

Where does this leave Nukes? Right in the middle. Surrounded by people who care and want to do what is "best" for her, and SHE doesn't have the faintest damn clue what is "best" for her, and she doesn't want to hurt any of you and has a personality predisposed to being walked all over. You think you're helping. Her family thinks they are helping. Everyone has something to gain by helping. Hm.

Help from afar. And recommend she sees a therapist to work on standing up for herself.

It's actually going to be a topic in a discussion group on communication that I attend at one of the BDSM houses here..."how to say no." We are going to practice saying definitive NOs to each other, working at it via roleplay to get more comfortable. I need this. Lots of women need this. And it sounds like Nukes needs something like this, too.

I hope you all come out of it alright. *hugs*
 
Hey, I'm here I promise. I just switched antidepressants on Saturday and in the midst of all this plus adjusting medication (and not being able to get restful sleep) I haven't had the time or energy to hammer out a reply. Even though I've really wanted to.

Everything Mr. Pants has said so far is in line with what I would have said (and he has talked to me before replying in most cases), so until I'm able to swing back by the thread to write a real reply I just wanted to confirm that I am reading everything and Mr. Pants isn't speaking for me without my knowledge or anything. I just don't feel comfortable accessing the forum at work since my internet connectivity is done through my electronic i.d. (I'm on my phone using mobile data to write this) and I'm exhausted by the time I get home. I promise I'll come back as soon as I'm able to, to chime in with my perspective.

I've missed you, Spork and Magdlyn. :)
 
The use of "ground rules" was more for the guy than for Nukes. We all three discussed what we were and weren't okay with if she wanted to continue seeing him . . .

I completely understand what you are trying to get at with this, but I am finding it really hard not to be offended by the connotation. Nukes does not have any rules that have been foisted upon her. The only reason why Nukes isn't seeing anyone else is because she is choosing to do so.
I don't think you do understand my point, actually. If you don't see how discussing and laying ground rules for a relationship you're not in (ie., Nukes with anyone outside of your triad) is overstepping bounds, dismissive of the autonomy of both Nukes and anyone else she may want to date or hook up with, and speaks of possessiveness and ownership/entitlement, even if she agreed, there is nothing more I can say. It is far better to develop personal boundaries for yourself, about what you will or will not accept in relationships, than to devise some list of things that someone else is or isn't supposed to do - because, as you found out, you have no control over what others do. Nobody does. All we have control over is our own behavior and attitudes. You and FF are making classic newbie mistakes and have gotten involved with someone who doesn't seem able to stand on her own two feet when it comes to her family and coworkers, has problems with boundaries, and is very squirrely with her communication skills.

Nukes may be financially independent, whether via inheritance or her own income, but she sounds emotionally immature and not ready for the soul-baring hard work of polyamory. There were moments, while reading your initial post, that I thought it all sounded like Junior High School drama. And you have defended certain of your own actions that people have pointed out to you or commented upon, but those things were pointed out for good reasons. There is no need to take offense - we're all just a bunch of anonymous posters on a message board. However, most of us do have extensive experience with dating, relationships, and ethical non-monogamy, which you do not. <shrug> So, I suggest that if you sincerely want advice and feedback, drop the defensiveness and see if any of what is posted by others here just might ring true. Then, discard the rest. I truly wish you all the best.
 
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Hey, I'm here I promise. I just switched antidepressants on Saturday and in the midst of all this plus adjusting medication (and not being able to get restful sleep) I haven't had the time or energy to hammer out a reply. Even though I've really wanted to.

Everything Mr. Pants has said so far is in line with what I would have said (and he has talked to me before replying in most cases), so until I'm able to swing back by the thread to write a real reply I just wanted to confirm that I am reading everything and Mr. Pants isn't speaking for me without my knowledge or anything. I just don't feel comfortable accessing the forum at work since my internet connectivity is done through my electronic i.d. (I'm on my phone using mobile data to write this) and I'm exhausted by the time I get home. I promise I'll come back as soon as I'm able to, to chime in with my perspective.

I've missed you, Spork and Magdlyn. :)

I totally understand, FF! And I have missed you, too!

For what it's worth, I know I'm a little harsh, and I don't wish to be hurtful. Understand that I completely acknowledge I might be off base, and that even if I'm not...I don't judge any of you for the situation you are in. I'm just kinda trying to drill down into things a bit. As Nycindie says, you don't have to defend your position against me, my comments are foods for thoughts...if the foods taste bad but are good for you, then maybe hold your nose, but if they are all wrong, you can feel free to dump 'em like moldy leftovers eh?

Ultimately...right now you're looking at moving into your own place, so if there is a future for your relationship with Nukes, it will be able to breathe without the pressure of cohabitation. Maybe you can transition to a supportive friendship and try to find other extramarital partners, open up the fidelitous bit to other possibilities if you want. Or not. But the data points we've got here all suggest that Nukes has issues that need to be resolved, and that they will probably create problems until they are worked out....and while you can support her in it (as a friend or as a partner) you absolutely can NOT do the self work for her. Which means you also can have no control of whether she actually does it, at all. And her family has nothing to gain from her becoming functional and self aware, so they will probably hamper her efforts until and unless she becomes strong enough to stop them.

Being with Nukes in any relationshippy thingie is gonna be a hard road, methinks. It's not her fault. But it's also not your obligation. Make sure you "put the oxygen mask on yourself first", or tend to your own needs/boundaries/life before you put too much mojo into hers.
 
Hi PhysicsIsPants and FF,

I don't have any experience with triads, but this...

The two of us handled moving in with Nukes the same way that we handled each other, which was to place trust and jump in. There is a whole long story there about FF and I and how we came to be... But jumping in worked for the two of us and we saw no reason not to do the same with Nukes.

Yeah, been there done that, thinking that what worked for me in monogamous dating/relationships would also work in polyamory. It doesn't. Even if you all had loads of experience in monogamous dating, it wouldn't make learning the ins and outs of poly relating any easier. It's basically starting from scratch, being a confused sixteen year old again. With all the good,bad, and ugly that entails ;)

I've always been quick to commit, to seek exclusivity and fidelity, to go "all in" in relationships. It's what feels natural and right to me. So I completely get where the three of you are coming from. But doing this in a mono relationship (especially when you're young) is easy, and doing it in a poly relationship is REALLY HARD. Instead of one relationship that needs to work, there are four (PIP+FF, PIP+Nukes, FF+Nukes, PIP+FF+Nukes). Relationships with extended families, children, and friends multiply at the same rate. There are just waaaay more moving parts that need to be in order for the relationship to thrive. Then add to that the stress of not having family and community support... It's not simple.

I think it's great that the three of you love each other so deeply, and I understand how that translates in your minds and hearts to a commitment to make the triad work no matter what. But sometimes, loving each other deeply also means stepping back and being absolutely sure that the relationship is bringing happiness to all the partners. I'm glad you are doing that, and I hope you will be able to continue to do that.
 
nycindie - Are you interpreting "we" as just Mr. Pants and I? When we say "we" discussed something, we do mean all three of us. Mr. Pants and I realize that we have couple's privilege and have tried to keep this in mind when discussing our relationship with each other (all three of us). From the beginning of the relationship we have all discussed what we individually need/want and what we want for the relationship as a whole. For instance, it turned out that none of us wanted to take on additional partners outside of this triad, but each of us was comfortable with someone else wanting to add a partner at a later date, if they'd like. The addition of other partners was something we agreed to discuss first if one of us wanted to make changes, to ensure that we were all on the same page again before moving forward with such a change. As such, we all agreed that our relationship was closed unless someone wanted to revisit that conversation in the future.

If you don't see how discussing and laying ground rules for a relationship you're not in (ie., Nukes with anyone outside of your triad) is overstepping bounds, dismissive of the autonomy of both Nukes and anyone else she may want to date or hook up with, and speaks of possessiveness and ownership/entitlement, even if she agreed, there is nothing more I can say. It is far better to develop personal boundaries for yourself, about what you will or will not accept in relationships, than to devise some list of things that someone else is or isn't supposed to do - because, as you found out, you have no control over what others do.

We don't have a right to control each other's relationships, of course, but we do have a right to voice our own boundaries, which is what I felt we did when Nukes said she wanted to keep seeing the coworker (as a secondary fuck-buddy sort of arrangement). I can say with 100% certainty that if she had said she wanted to continue seeing the coworker and one of us wasn't okay with that, it would not have resulted in an ultimatum from either me or Mr. Pants. It would have been something along the lines of: "I'm not okay with that and wouldn't want to continue in this relationship if that's the only option. Do you want to remain in this relationship (triad) and, if so, is there a different option [than what you proposed] that would work for you?" If there wasn't, it would be anyone's choice to leave the relationship if it infringed upon our own boundaries/needs or stay if they felt it wasn't. And since others have expressed that they think there isn't a problem with her sleeping with the coworker, I'd like to further explain: the problem with the cheating in this case is that our established boundaries included that bringing new people in meant discussing it ahead of time so that everyone had the opportunity to make sure they were okay with it (in terms of each person's decision to continue in this relationship). In addition, this happened directly after a conversation-turned-fight which suggests the cheating is related to the fight. This is particular raised lots of concern for me and Mr. Pants.

On Sunday during our long talk about what had happened, Mr. Pants had asked Nukes if she felt that she needed short term relationships on the side to fulfill her needs, and she said she didn't know. He said if that's something she needs, then we should talk about it. The discussion of her continuing to see the coworker came up a short while later. I asked what she meant by "keep seeing him" and she said she'd want to hang out, play videos games, and have sex occasionally. I said that I was okay with that but personally didn't want to see his face, so she said she could make that happen [to respect my boundary]. Mr. Pants said that he was okay with that, but wasn't comfortable with her being fluid-bonded with the coworker. They used a condom when they were together on Friday, and she said continuing to use condoms wouldn't be a problem. Mr. Pants also said that he didn't personally want to be around him (if he'd be coming over to our house - this was before we decided that moving out would be the best move) but could be civil if he came over or would choose to make himself scarce. To this end, Mr. Pants and I both asked that if the coworker was coming over that we be given a heads up so that we could make the decision of whether we wanted to interact with him. She said she was willing to do that (send a text or verbally tell us). [And remember, all of this is now moot. She said she didn't actually want to continue with him, she was just trying to see where the line was, whatever that means. And yes, we intend to ask and find out because that sent up a red flag. We've been talking every night but clearly there's a lot to discuss and it probably wouldn't be productive to try to tackle everything at once, so it's an ongoing thing.]

I understand that no one can give a full, unbiased account of what happened and all anyone here can do is pick up on our word choice and the overall feeling of what we write... but yikes, I feel like you jumped all over us without asking clarifying questions. Mr. Pants and I have been discussing since he posted this thread that a LOT of what others have posted is helpful and fair; however, the aggressive nature of your post did knock us back on our heels. It feels like you are putting words in our mouths and angry about something you assume we did rather than something we said we did. On some points I can see your train of thought because it wasn't explained in detail, but again... it felt very aggressive. I don't think Mr. Pants has said we have done no wrong - and I'm not doing so, either - and by calling him defensive I feel like that's what you mean. Our clarifying the points you take issue with is meant to give a fuller picture. Of course we can only provide our own viewpoints which are certainly biased.

You and FF are making classic newbie mistakes and have gotten involved with someone who doesn't seem able to stand on her own two feet when it comes to her family and coworkers, has problems with boundaries, and is very squirrely with her communication skills.

It's true that she's having trouble standing on her own two feet right now, has problems with boundaries, and has communication skills that aren't quite up to snuff. These are things that were not as apparent until we became partners and as we've been together longer we are seeing more and more of it. These are things we will need to address together to figure out how we'd like to proceed in terms of our relationship. (Breaking up is never off the table if that's the best option.)

Nukes has been under immense pressure since we moved in, at a degree far greater than any of us expected. Her mother is a toxic, emotionally abusive narcissist and Nukes is aware of that. She is aware that her mother controls her to a ridiculous degree. Before we all agreed that we wanted to stay together on Sunday night I told her that regardless of where our relationship went, I felt that it was extremely important for her to set boundaries with her mother. Nukes explained that she lives in fear and setting boundaries with her mother isn't an option right now; the last time she tried to set boundaries with her mother, it turned into a fury that she couldn't weather. I won't go into detail, but I was horrified. Having a toxic, emotionally abusive narcissist mother myself, I am well aware of the terror one can inspire. Her mother does things that a reasonable person would never dream of doing, things that cross boundaries so far that it's unimaginable. And when you try to cut her out in any way - limiting phone conversations to once a day, not giving her free access to Nukes's house, etc. - it only gets worse and she only takes things further. Part of the reason we're moving out is that Nukes feels there is absolutely no way for her to begin to set boundaries with her mother while we live in the same city (and I would guess the same state, after hearing what she's done in the past). The only reason I was able to cut mine out entirely was because I live 300 miles away - if I was still near home there would have been no way. Because they show up, they force their way in, and little or nothing will deter them. And that's exactly what Nukes's mom did when she tried to set boundaries last time - it sounded terrifying to me, and she was clearly so shaken when it happened that she's never tried it again. It is very clear in hindsight that moving in together here was clearly not going to pan out because of her mother. Nukes seemed convinced that she could handle her and put her foot down about us staying (obviously not as partners, as far as her mother would know) but in hindsight and knowing what we know now... there's no way in hell.

I'd like to reply back to some of the other commenters later, but that's about all I can muster for now. And I guess I thought it went without saying until I saw all the replies (obviously my mistake, and I mean that sincerely), but it's worth noting that Nukes and her needs have been forefront in the discussion of our relationship following the admission of cheating. Since the night she told us, Mr. Pants and I have both put aside what we're feeling about this situation to comfort her, to take into account which of her needs aren't being met and how to resolve that, and to discuss what solutions exist for all of us (including expanding or dissolving the relationship) in an attempt to move forward with something functional for everyone.
 
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No, I understood that all three of you met together and discussed it. I am saying the premise you all started out with in the beginning is basically flawed.

FWIW, I am not angry nor being aggressive if I point out any defensiveness, which was evident in Mr. Pants's post and now yours. You are both defending your position/actions and trying to explain things in a way that refutes what I wrote. It's not a crime or anything bad to defend yourself - I just said it wasn't necessary. I suggested dropping the defensiveness because defending oneself gets in the way of truly listening/hearing and taking in what could possibly be valuable information. It was meant to be helpful.

But I could be 100% off in my assessment of things, which you can just ignore. It's only my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. But I'd like you to imagine everything I wrote as my matter-of-fact impression of the situation, spoken in a calm, soothing voice, like a doting aunt giving tough love advice out of caring. Nothing I said was meant in any other way than that. Please assume good intentions when you ask for advice here, even if it is delivered in a manner which you construe as harsh or jolting.

I hope everything works out.
 
No, I understood that all three of you met together and discussed it. I am saying the premise you all started out with in the beginning is basically flawed.

The premise that we all said we didn't personally want to add another to the triad but would be open to discussing that later to make sure everyone was comfortable continuing with such a change? In your other responses you seemed to think the problem was that Mr. Pants and I set rules for Nukes, and that wasn't the case.

I am not angry nor being aggressive if I point out any defensiveness, which was evident in Mr. Pants's post and now yours.

I didn't say that you are being aggressive or angry by pointing out defensiveness. I'm saying that your posts in general were aggressive and sounded angry. That, coupled with us thinking that what you said wasn't correct, means that we are compelled to respond and offer more information to refute what we think isn't correct.

You are both defending your position/actions and trying to explain things in a way that refutes what I wrote.
...But I could be 100% off in my assessment of things, which you can just ignore.

Here's the thing - you can't have it both ways. If we refute what you say, then you say we're being defensive. But if you're 100% off... we're supposed to just ignore what you said? You're posting in a public forum and what you say will be read by others. If we don't refute what we feel is wrong, then that will influence how others reply from that point on. If we don't clarify or refute the points we feel aren't right, then it appears that we're allowing it to stand as though it is correct to those who are reading through and post their opinions.
 
FF and Mr.Pants,

I am so sorry and feel greatly for nuke's situation. I had a very emotionally and oppressive step mother growing up, and I know how difficult it is in the beginning to cut them out. Moving out was the best thing that ever happened to me and was the only way to cut her out. At this rate however perhaps nukes may try a restraining order, this is psychologically and emotionally damaging, and the more power that woman has, the worse off this poor dear is going to be. I despise mothers of this caliber and I hope Karma comes in full swing.

I am new to poly myself and I understand that my input may not have as heavy a value as the more experienced people here, but with these stressing factors that Nukes is dealing with, I would venture she has entered 'flight' mode, which makes her patterns, behaviors, emotions and thoughts greatly sporadic that judgment may be hindered. Considering her circumstances I too would have forgiven her and you both are doing your best to be of help to her, even if that means letting go for the time being to allow her to gain some footing to fight back the horrid demons she has to face. I also suggest therapy for her, not just for treatment but for documentation on how poisonous and abusive the mother is towards her and due to the damage that is continual they CAN do something about it and give her the backup needed should she need to cut her out completely.

I know you both have put your emotions aside for her and have decisions to carefully make, but I wish all three of you the best of luck in this.
 
Okay, I'm curious about Nukes' two grandmothers. I have heard of one pushy grandmother, but two at once? Are they her two separate grandmothers, like her mom's mother and her dad's mother? (I am picturing the two sets of grandparents sleeping in the same bed in the original Charlie & the Chocolate Factory movie). Or are they a lesbian couple, like they are BOTH her mom's mothers?

I am just trying to understand this strange family dynamic.
 
Sorry for the long hiatus. Thought I should come back and give an update. I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to get all the details down in writing. At this point I'd just like to move on and leave it as a painful reminder to not let us lose ourselves again.

We did move out of Nuke's home. We were very fortunate to be able to get our old home back. Within a matter of hours the landlady would have offered it to an interested renter, but we contacted her before she had done so and she gladly took us back. *sigh of relief*

Things were so so weird when we moved out. Her mom was there and she was treating us with barely restrained hostility. Odd, since she usually cares so much about appearances and had always treated us politely before (despite clearly not liking us). Before we moved out we expressed to Nukes how we would like to go back to how we were doing things before we moved in - seeing each other a few times a week, spending the night at either house once a week or more, etc. Her responses were making me uncomfortable but I couldn't figure out why at the time. I figured it out later that night, though - it felt like she was telling us what we wanted to hear. Sure, yeah, we'll do that. But there was no real interest shown, no returned affection, nothing that would make me think she was genuinely interested.

So... to summarize, we were definitely white knighting Nukes. We knew we were at the time, but we were trying to be very understanding because I know how difficult it is to have a narcissist mother. As it turns out... she was lying to us quite a lot and taking advantage of our understanding natures. Mr. Pants and I have been seeing our own therapists for a few months and after telling each of them separately what has been going on, they both said that things weren't making sense. It got us thinking and we started talking to people who I'm sure she thought we'd never talk to... and what they said wasn't matching up with what she told us. The more we found out, the more things made sense, but not in the way she had described things to us.

It was obvious that she had constructed a huge web of lies and she had isolated us from talking to anyone who could reveal how deep they went. She didn't count on us talking to those people, because she had fed us information about them that had made us not want to talk to them. But after our therapists said it sounded fishy, we wondered. So we did reach out to them. The biggest thing was, she lied about almost everything related to the cheating. We talked to the guy she cheated with, asked him some questions... and his account was so wildly different it was insane. She said she went over with a group and then everyone left; he said she came over alone after leaving work early. He said they were sober; she said they had all been drinking and smoking weed. It just goes on and on. We found out that she hasn't been required to and isn't actually working nights and weekends the way she said she was. She spent the night at the guy's house and stayed most of the next day. That doesn't sound like a mistake to me. And we had been confused about when she admitted to it - she never once asked for forgiveness. Didn't seem remorseful. We tried to explain it away at the time, but it all came crashing down after learning about the lies.

After sharing the new information with our therapists, they each noted that it seemed like we were in a cycle of [emotional] abuse and manipulation (from what we had told them of course, they can't say much about Nukes, not having seen her themselves). And all the while, Nukes was being very distant, disappearing for days at a time without contact - the one thing we told her we couldn't take again. I specifically said to her that disappearing without a word was painful and felt like punishment to me. She did it again anyway. And the more we found out, the more clear it became that she was yanking us around and lying to us.

We talked with one of my very good friends and she thought that Nukes' mom was so hostile when we were moving out because Nukes had fed her a lie, possibly to get her mom to help pay to move us out? She suggested that Nukes possibly told her mom (who doesn't know about our relationship) that Michael had made unwanted sexual advances. Oh boy, that would explain the hostility. Fuck. So after talking with her and a few more good friends (who all seemed to agree on some level that something was very wrong with the relationship in terms of how Nukes was behaving) we both agreed that it would be best to end the relationship with Nukes. All of it, even the friendship.

It honestly seemed like the cheating was meant to cause a breakup anyway. She didn't ask us to forgive her for it, but we forgave her anyway. Then she kept trying to sabotage it, and we kept being understanding. We gave her several opportunities to say she wanted to end the relationship, assuring her that we could still be friends and we wouldn't harbor bad feelings. But she wouldn't. We still don't know why, since all of her behavior showed that she was trying to end it. Our therapists think she wants to play the victim, so that meant we needed to break up with Nukes instead of her breaking up with us.

After several more days of silence from her, I sent Nukes a message that simply said, "Mr. Pants and I have come to the conclusion that it is in probably best for all of us if we end all aspects of our relationship. We wish you the best moving forward." I know it's shitty to break up over message instead of via phone or in person; however, because of the suspicion (and evidence, if I'm being honest) of emotional abuse it was suggested to me that we do it this way. She wouldn't be able to explain things away - and we'd have (stupidly) been willing to give her another chance at that point - so we wouldn't be tempted to jump back in. We haven't heard from her since then. No attempt to contact us, nothing. Which confirms to me that us breaking up with her was what she wanted.

We feel very fortunate to have found out what was going on before we caused further harm to ourselves by staying in that relationship. We've been shocked by the difference we've felt since we ended the relationship. We didn't realize how isolated we'd become from others, even our other good friends. We didn't realize what a black cloud we'd carried around with us - people are commenting about how we seem much happier and how miserable we seemed over the past few months. We didn't realize that we had completely stopped hanging out with other people, holy shit. So we've been going out and doing something with friends at least once a week again. Just... wow, guys. Wow.
 
Sounds like breaking up with Nukes was the right thing to do. I'm glad you guys are starting to feel better.
 
Sorry for the delayed response. Please read FieryFlames's summary above.

Are they her two separate grandmothers, like her mom's mother and her dad's mother? (I am picturing the two sets of grandparents sleeping in the same bed in the original Charlie & the Chocolate Factory movie). Or are they a lesbian couple, like they are BOTH her mom's mothers?

Yes, they are two separate grandmothers. Her mother's mom and father's mom. Her grandmother on her father's didn't know how to interact with her because she only had boys and apparently used to tell her that she would of preferred if she had been a boy. I am not sure about her grandmother on her mother's side. However, at some point she says that she drew a line in the sand. She decided that she would not be a disappointment to her grandmothers and would give them what ever they wanted.
 
Glad that's over with! And I hope you will recognise the red flags of this kind of person, should you be tempted again in the future.
 
We feel very fortunate to have found out what was going on before we caused further harm to ourselves by staying in that relationship. We've been shocked by the difference we've felt since we ended the relationship. We didn't realize how isolated we'd become from others, even our other good friends. We didn't realize what a black cloud we'd carried around with us - people are commenting about how we seem much happier and how miserable we seemed over the past few months. We didn't realize that we had completely stopped hanging out with other people, holy shit. So we've been going out and doing something with friends at least once a week again. Just... wow, guys. Wow.

That sounds very much like how my friends reacted after the end of the first quad I was in - it's probably a bad sign when your friend almost spits her coffee across the table at the matter of fact description of (what I now realize was emotional abusive, or at least really wonky but I thought was) normal life at the time.

I *still* haven't worked out how to better balance friends and dating though, even years later. :(
 
That sounds very much like how my friends reacted after the end of the first quad I was in - it's probably a bad sign when your friend almost spits her coffee across the table at the matter of fact description of (what I now realize was emotional abusive, or at least really wonky but I thought was) normal life at the time.

I *still* haven't worked out how to better balance friends and dating though, even years later. :(

Well, it is important to note who bears what responsibility for various bits of dysfunction...and to accept that sometimes stuff simply does not work, and fault doesn't matter.

(EDIT: I typed the rest of the response I wrote, but forgot what part of this post I wanted to reply to...guess my mind isn't firing on all cylinders this morning...I was going to say that to some extent one might isolate from one's own friends while dating and it's not all because a partner is isolating a person, or people, but just because of where one is choosing to put one's energies. I have not made time for my friendships in recent months, and it's no one's fault but my own. /EDIT)

I mean, yeah, Nukes and her stuff was all a mess. But I'd focus less on her wrongdoing (lying, cheating) and just put it down to the fact that she's got serious problems and you cannot suspend or sacrifice your lives in a (likely fruitless) attempt to help her. She's going to continue to suffer for her own maintenance of dysfunctional family dynamics and her own disrespectful treatment of herself and others, bad boundaries, lying and so on. She's just gonna keep right on reaping what she sows. It's sad, but some folks are like that.

I'd suggest not going too far down the rabbit hole on post mortem analysis, and to be more careful, take things far more slowly and cautiously in the future with any new partners. Especially in the life-entanglement department. But I suspect that is probably pretty clear in your minds at this point. I'm glad to hear you got back into your old housing just in the nick of time.
 
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Glad that's over with! And I hope you will recognise the red flags of this kind of person, should you be tempted again in the future.

We honestly should have recognized the red flags this time... we're no stranger to emotional abuse (thank you families...) but we kept explaining things away as something else. Part of the problem was that Nukes didn't want us to tell anyone we know here, so we didn't have anyone to talk to about the relationship who regularly saw and interacted with us (and therefore could have offered valuable insight). Moving forward, Mr. Pants and I are only okay with entering another poly relationship if we can be completely open or mostly open (with friends/family at least).

That sounds very much like how my friends reacted after the end of the first quad I was in - it's probably a bad sign when your friend almost spits her coffee across the table at the matter of fact description of (what I now realize was emotional abusive, or at least really wonky but I thought was) normal life at the time.

We were already kind of considering that we were being treated poorly and manipulated, but kept trying to explain it away and thought that maybe we were overreacting. Plus we didn't have anyone who personally knows all of us to talk to about it. I finally decided to tell my good friend K, and it took her pointing out the things she's noticed and the things we've told her and hearing that she thinks Nukes is emotionally abusive and, more so, that Nukes is predatory. K also pointed out how she saw Nukes behaving in ways that were meant to marginalize me and drive a wedge between me and Mr. Pants, and how her actions seemed to be designed to provoke Mr. Pants into anger and/or confuse him by saying one thing and doing another (which was constant even after Mr. Pants brought this up with Nukes several times as being confusing to him).

Re (from PhysicsIsPants):
"She decided that she would not be a disappointment to her grandmothers and would give them whatever they wanted."

Holy wow.

Yeah, I know. Had we known that before moving in I actually think I would have put the brakes on moving in. But this only came out the night of the cheating, and it was kind of like, "Oh... well... okay then. Wish I had known that before..." I think it's incredibly unhealthy, and wouldn't have been comfortable entangling ourselves with her that way as a result. Would have been nice to know ahead of time so that we could have made more informed decisions in our relationship.

Well, it is important to note who bears what responsibility for various bits of dysfunction...and to accept that sometimes stuff simply does not work, and fault doesn't matter.

Absolutely, and I think there was some incompatibility among all of us that didn't really come to light until later that played a role; however, the key thing for me is that from my perspective, it's not so much a matter of "fault" as it is that I feel we were being emotionally abused, and there was no way for the relationship to survive that.

(EDIT: I typed the rest of the response I wrote, but forgot what part of this post I wanted to reply to...guess my mind isn't firing on all cylinders this morning...I was going to say that to some extent one might isolate from one's own friends while dating and it's not all because a partner is isolating a person, or people, but just because of where one is choosing to put one's energies. I have not made time for my friendships in recent months, and it's no one's fault but my own. /EDIT)

We did self-isolate... because she insisted that we not tell anyone we know in this town and would decline going out with us when hanging out with our friends (people with whom she was familiar with or friends with herself), so we often had to choose between her and them. She told us things about those mutual friends (which we later found were untrue) that were meant to discourage us from hanging out with them. We started making friends with a guy who Nukes works with and his wife, and Nukes only ever had bad things to say about them and made hanging out with them sound like such a chore that we stopped trying to hang out with them. We rather liked this couple, but felt that we had to choose because of how she reacted when they wanted to hang out. We've been hanging out with them again now that the relationship is over, and we are really enjoying their company. So from my perspective, it's not just a matter of us pouring all of our focus into the relationship - it's that she was actively poisoning our view of our friends. :(

For the record, the couple I mention above do know that our friendship with Nukes is over and that we don't wish to continue interacting with her. We do not ask about her, and they do not update us on her. We told them that if it complicates things for him at work or personally, we would understand if they didn't want to be friends with us and wouldn't bother them about it. They said no, they wanted to be our friends, and offered to not invite us and her to the same events if they're hosting, which we were grateful for (but we doubt Nukes is hanging out with them at all given how she talked about them while we were together).

I mean, yeah, Nukes and her stuff was all a mess. But I'd focus less on her wrongdoing (lying, cheating) and just put it down to the fact that she's got serious problems and you cannot suspend or sacrifice your lives in a (likely fruitless) attempt to help her. She's going to continue to suffer for her own maintenance of dysfunctional family dynamics and her own disrespectful treatment of herself and others, bad boundaries, lying and so on. She's just gonna keep right on reaping what she sows. It's sad, but some folks are like that.

The cheating itself honestly wasn't the problem. Despite being very hurt over the cheating, Mr. Pants and I were working through it and still felt love for Nukes and wanted to move forward. The lying surrounding the cheating - the details of which lead us to the conclusion that it was calculated and not an accident - and the apathy towards repairing the relationship were also hurtful, but it wasn't until a few people pointed out the abusive patterns that we realized we couldn't continue in the relationship. And even then, Mr. Pants was still willing to go back. I wasn't - I was done at that point.

Nukes is absolutely going to continue to suffer, and that honestly makes both of us feel terrible. Like we're supposed to be there to support her and help her. But we know we can't. We are sad and deflated about all of this, because despite how she treated us we can't find it within ourselves to sustain anger towards her. We want to move on, we don't want to hear from her again (too tempting to allow ourselves to get pulled back in), we just want this chapter to be over and closed. We'd like to go back and reflect as needed, of course, but don't want to reopen old wounds.

I'd suggest not going too far down the rabbit hole on post mortem analysis, and to be more careful, take things far more slowly and cautiously in the future with any new partners. Especially in the life-entanglement department. But I suspect that is probably pretty clear in your minds at this point. I'm glad to hear you got back into your old housing just in the nick of time.

Hah, that's easier said than done. We keep thinking of "what if" moments about the relationship. But ultimately we conclude that we'll never know for sure. We'll never know what was really going on behind the scenes or the motives behind it all. I'm pretty close to being okay with that, but Mr. Pants still has cogs turning, wondering what he could have done differently. We're trying to move forward and not dwell on things too much, but we haven't even had much time to really process it all to begin with, so I'm sure we'll still be working through it over the winter break while we have a week or so off of work.

The only reason things moved so quickly with Nukes is because we already had 3 years of friendship to build on. We are now aware that even that isn't necessarily a good reason to move so fast; it is indeed very clear to us that we want to move slowly and avoid large entanglements like living together. Mr. Pants and I already agreed that neither of us want to give up our established home again, and will probably maintain a household separate from any other partners in the future.

All of this has been a terribly painful experience. I think for me what hurts the most is feeling like the emotional abuse was intentional and meant to damage the relationship between me and Mr. Pants. I don't understand why someone would do that, especially someone I loved (and who I believed loved me). It doesn't make sense to me. But the evidence is overwhelming. There's not another way to explain it that isn't doing mental gymnastics to explain it away. :(
But we're both continuing to work with our therapists on this (and ourselves) and I know we're going to be okay. One good thing is that Mr. Pants and I now know that we are open to a poly relationship. We will probably attempt poly differently next time, but we know that the relationship between the two of us is solid and strong. We suffered in this triad, individually and together, but the end result was that we still offered support to each other and our relationship (the two of us) was still intact. We're resilient.

Thanks to all who have replied. It's good to get different perspectives and ideas and sometimes just to have someone say they understand.
 
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