Looking for Resonance on an Unfortunate Turn of Events

PhysicsIsPants

New member
Hello to everybody! It has been a little while since I was last active on here but I felt like I needed to ask for some advice and figured this would be the place. The short and skinny is that FF and I (please see signature for full names) just found out that Nukes cheated on us this past Friday.

So Wednesday night Nukes and I had a very emotional conversation. I was talking to her about some insecurities that I was having and she left the conversation really upset with me. From the beginning, Nukes has been very concerned about making sure that her family (who live in the same city) and her coworkers do not know that we are together. She incorrectly convinced herself during the conversation that the insecurities were stemming from us not being open about our triad. When she got angry with me I started to shut down emotionally and wasn't able to explain myself very well.

Thursday morning I wrote out an explanation so that what I was trying to say would be clear and sent it to her that afternoon. Unbeknownst to me she read my explanation and got even more upset. We didn't see her that night because she worked late and didn't come home until after midnight. Then on Friday she didn't communicate with us and didn't come home that night. Saturday morning I sent her a message asking if she was okay and she did not respond to me, but did respond to a call from FF by texting her to say that she was okay and just needed some space. She came home really late Saturday night after FF and I had gone to bed.

I tried to restart our conversation Sunday afternoon and after a little bit of talking Nukes advised me that she had slept with someone else Friday night. The person she slept with is a guy from work that had told her a couple weeks ago that he was interested in her. Nukes told us that the guy had expressed interest; however, was adament that she had no interest in him at all, in any way. She says that she had intended to only hang out with him and that she had had no intention of sleeping with him.

We love her deeply and aren't wanting to end the relationship. Does anyone have any advice or resonance on how to move past this kind of thing?
 
Can you remind me of the time line here? Is it that you've all been dating a little over six months now? At what point did you all decide that you would close your triad? Did you all decide that? What were the reasons for it?

To me, when someone breaks a boundary it means one of two things. Either the boundary was not a reasonable one that they actually WANT or are ABLE to respect, or they are a super-flakey individual who cannot stick to boundaries at all. If you are sure that she's not the latter, then you need an honest conversation about whether the relationship needs to still remain closed, and if her desires on that end changed, what prevented her from talking about the possibility of re-negotiating those agreements in advance if she felt them starting to chafe.

As much as you might want to imagine there being no hierarchy in your triad, the fact remains that as the married couple, the legitimate pairing in society's eyes, as cohabitees, and as the two with a much longer personal history with one another, you and your wife have privileges that do not extend to your shared girlfriend. Furthermore, it sounds like you and she have experienced a string of poor communication incidents, and a string of highly intense emotional moments. I can empathise with why someone in her shoes might feel like a) talking to you about her feelings is not getting her anywhere right now, and b) that she is sacrificing a lot of personal autonomy to be in this relationship with you - and that perhaps that was premature. It's clear that she should have spoken to you both sooner if her thoughts and feelings on being polifidelitous had changed, and I'm not excusing that, but in her defence, she told you at the first opportunity, and before sex had taken place so you could make an informed decision on that. To me, that sounds pretty respectful and is very much like the agreement I have with my partner - I'd prefer to know if she's interested in someone as soon as possible, but if something random and unpredictable happens at her end, then I want to know as soon as possible thereafter, and definitely before we are intimate again. In other words, no hiding or lying. I also prefer face to face conversations over text messages for these things. Your mileage may vary though.

I urge you to think hard about what is so important about being closed to new connections right now, try to find out more about her thought processes right now, and figure out if anything can be done differently in future. Rebuilding trust, for me, starts with understanding why a person did the thing that they did, and understanding my role in that. If I'm not creating an environment where my partner feels safe to discuss her innermost wants and desires, then I can hardly blame her for keeping them from me. Likewise, if I'm so bummed out by my own insecurities and issues, it's understandable that I'm less focused on my partner and her needs and might miss obvious signs of her own unhappiness. Events rarely occur in a vacuum. If you understand all the woking parts and still feel like she is untrustworthy, then that's a bridge you will have to cross. But usually it becomes clear after just a little investigation that there is a way forward and through if all parties are willing to make changes to support one another.
 

tenK,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, we've been together six months and we decided at the beginning to be polyfidelitous. We did that because all three of us weren't interested in considering anyone else at the time and wanted to try to establish our triad before adding additional complication. Also, FF and I sold must of our things (furniture, appliances, etc.) and moved in with Nukes about a month and a half ago. That being said, I think there are somethings that I did not clarify properly.

It's clear that she should have spoken to you both sooner if her thoughts and feelings on being polifidelitous had changed, and I'm not excusing that, but in her defence, she told you at the first opportunity, and before sex had taken place so you could make an informed decision on that.

No, Nukes told us the guy had expressed interest but was adament that she wasn't interested in any way. When she told us about the guy expressing interest (who we all have known for about a year), I offered that she could look at bringing him in or taking him on as a secondary if she wanted to. I discussed that such options were always something that we could talk about and she said she wasn't interested and wanted to stay polyfidelitous. She went as far as to say that she wouldn't be interested in him in any universe. This conversation happened two weeks ago.
 
I was talking to her about some insecurities that I was having and she left the conversation really upset with me.
Is it irrelevant to the discussion what your insecurities are?
Are you two used to talking about insecurities?
Do you know why she was upset?
 
Thanks for clarifying. I hadn't realised that you two had moved in with her. When you are going through a tough period with bad communication, AND you don't have a safe partner-free space to retreat to, it can sometimes fuel the intensity factor a bit. Sounds like you are all juggling multiple 'new' things here: new relationship for all of you, new living conditions, new routines all round. I can understand why adding more new partners might be a less than stellar plan right now. And also why you might be reluctant to end the relationship if y'all are relying on her for a place to stay.

No, Nukes told us the guy had expressed interest but was adament that she wasn't interested in any way. When she told us about the guy expressing interest (who we all have known for about a year), I offered that she could look at bringing him in or taking him on as a secondary if she wanted to. I discussed that such options were always something that we could talk about and she said she wasn't interested and wanted to stay polyfidelitous. She went as far as to say that she wouldn't be interested in him in any universe. This conversation happened two weeks ago.

I understood that there was a conversation a few weeks prior. Why would you assume that she was lying back then though? I try to assume good intentions when things go wrong, because labelling someone's behaviours as lying or provocative prematurely never helps you to process a situation. I agree that it seems odd that she wouldn't even have an inkling of interest her end a few weeks ago, but I genuinely know people who are very un-aware of their own desires, and also, people can and do change their minds on these things. Perhaps she saw a different side to him, or perhaps she still sees him as an unsuitable long-term dating partner, but a perfectly good short-term option.

I guess after hearing more details of what you spoke about, I'm also now wondering why you are so bent out of shape over something that a few weeks ago you were happy to consider. I can easily imagine after that conversation that Nukes could have gone away with the idea that FF and PIP are cool with her seeing another person at some point, and although we are currently closed, we could be open pretty easily. Therefore, when opportunity presented itself, it seemed like only a minor departure from protocol. Again, I don't want to defend her - sounds like she has broken agreements by jumping the gun without discussion, but if in principle it was okay before, why is it not now? Sounds like you don't quite have a handle yet on what exactly upset you here. Is it just that you feel the timing is wrong, or because you and she are on unsteady ground right now, she should be working towards fixing that instead of scratching an itch/starting something new? Or do you feel like she did this purposefully to hurt you in some way?
 
Hi PhysicsIsPants,

My advice is simple but perhaps not so easy to carry out. If you want to move past this thing, you will have to forgive Nukes. I see that she said one thing and then did another, and I take it you were hurt by her actions. And maybe on her side of the story it doesn't seem like as big of a deal, but none of that ultimately matters. The only thing that matters here and now is whether you can forgive her. If you can't, the only option left is to break up with her.

Sorry, I know those are sucky options.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I would be hesitant to rush to judgment of Nukes on the basis of this thing.

If you take out all the emotional detail, what happened is that you and Nukes had a disagreement, and Nukes was upset. In the process of getting some space and sympathy, she had some sex. When Nukes returned home, she told you what had happened.

You do not know why the sex happens, or whether it implies anything bigger than "Nukes and Guy had sex." Sometimes people have sex because they want something from the person they are having sex with, like a safe place to sleep. There are major problems with that strategy, but no one does their best thinking in the middle of a fight with a lover.

Nukes was prompt in being honest with you about what happened, which is important. Whether you guys want to carry on with your existing relationship is an open question.

This sentence worries me:
She incorrectly convinced herself during the conversation that the insecurities were stemming from us not being open about our triad.

You were also in that conversation. Did you perhaps say or do anything that Nukes might reasonably have thought was evidence that your insecurities came from not being open about your triad? The notion that Nukes just irrationally convinced herself of something while you spoke to each other deserves to be carefully examined, not so much on the web, as in your head.
 
Hi all,

Am I missing something here?

Nukes cheated, if I read this right.

Whether or not a fight was just had, whether or not Nukes told her partner's about it straight afterwards...she still cheated.

Why suggest just forgive her, or be kind etc? Cheating, to me, suggests a deep disrespect for the agreements made and the people who made them. I'd be breaking up with a cheater, not giving them a second chance.

Especially as Nukes had the opportunity, even the invitation, to speak openly with her partners before the cheating, to say that she was no longer happy being poly-fi, or that she was no longer happy not being out, or whatever else she was unhappy about. I'd be far more understanding of cheating if it happened in a relationship where a partner speaking up about their own needs or unhappiness was being suppressed. But in Nukes' case she was actually invited to do so. And she decided to cheat anyway.
 
Is it irrelevant to the discussion what your insecurities are?
Are you two used to talking about insecurities?
Do you know why she was upset?

No, the insecurities themselves are certainly important. In summary, I took issue with a fantasy firefighter boyfriend that she had made up at work to keep some of the people she works with off of the scent. When approached by the guy, she advised him that she had never thought of him that way and advised me during our previous conversation that she was concerned that she had been too ambiguous in her response. However, Nukes felt that she is normally good at nipping things in the bud and planned to keep a weather eye for any signs that he was trying to make moves.

Rather than telling him outright that she wasn't interested she let him down as softly as she could by simply running with the I'm dating the fantasy firefighter. I understand the purpose behind this, but this guy is someone that comes over to our home once a week to do laundry and hangs out with us sometimes which makes things more complicated. If he knew that we were a triad or that she wasn't interested, then I'm sure that he'd be respectful of the situation. However, without a clear no and him never seeing this fantasy boyfriend, there is no reason for him to not make subtle advances during the times that we are all together. This could potentially leave FF and I in an uncomfortable situation where we cannot outwardly protest because we have agreed to keep things under wraps from the people that she works with.

The fantasy firefighter itself was something that was weighing on me because there has been a disparity between the level of sexual engagement that Nukes says that she would like regularly and what actually happens. For example, she might state that she wants a minimum of 4 times a week but even in the presence of ample opportunity does not seem interested in engaging more than a little less than once a week. This is something that we have discussed before; however, every discussion had gone the same path which is that she adamantly reiterates that she does want to engage more. I have some physical insecurity and felt that the fantasy firefighter could have been, in part, a reflection of the kind of partner that she would prefer to have.

And also why you might be reluctant to end the relationship if y'all are relying on her for a place to stay.

We do not want to end the relationship because we love her. The housing situation stings because FF and I placed a significant amount of trust in disassembling the home that we had built so recently to this happening; however, it was not a factor in our decision to not end the relationship.

I understood that there was a conversation a few weeks prior. Why would you assume that she was lying back then though?

I never said that I thought she was lying... I simply stated what she said.

I guess after hearing more details of what you spoke about, I'm also now wondering why you are so bent out of shape over something that a few weeks ago you were happy to consider.

The problem is how it happened. There was no discussion or agreement between us that this would be okay. We had limited communication with Nukes on Thursday and no communication with her on Friday. This is because she was really angry with me and being passive aggressive. She did not tell us that she would not be coming home that night and simply dropped off the map, going radio silent. We assumed that she must be working late and then got really worried about her safety the next morning when she still wasn't home and was unresponsive to calls, texts, or FB messages. Then we come to find out that she wasn't home because she decided to go and sleep with the guy from work.

The only thing that matters here and now is whether you can forgive her. If you can't, the only option left is to break up with her.

I couldn't agree more. This was something that I brought up during the conversation between the three of us about what to do. I feel that I can forgive her and place my trust in her again. Again my fault for not clarifying, we have already decided to continue in the relationship. I am more willing to forgive than FF is; however, FF is at least willing to try to see if she can forgive.

You were also in that conversation. Did you perhaps say or do anything that Nukes might reasonably have thought was evidence that your insecurities came from not being open about your triad? The notion that Nukes just irrationally convinced herself of something while you spoke to each other deserves to be carefully examined, not so much on the web, as in your head.

I agree that I was a member of the conversation and that such statements require careful consideration; however, in this case, it is a correct assertion to make. Nukes has been concerned that the nail in the coffin for our relationship will come from FF and I getting fed up with her need to keep things secret. FF and I have both done our best to be both active and contentious participants in keeping things from getting out. This does help assuage Nukes concerns but doesn't change that it still looms in the back of her mind. The problem is that Nukes stopped listening and entered a spiral where she was certain that the over arching problem was the lack of not being open about the triad. She couldn't see past that being the problem in spite of my fervent reiteration that I was both understanding and supportive of her need to keep things quite.
 
I'm going to resist the "Nukes is the mayor of Crazy Town" explanation that you're offering.

The imaginary firefighter is part of Nukes's closet. You dislike him, it is not a leap to think, feel or say that you dislike the closet.

And you do dislike the closet! You especially dislike the closet when she brings co-workers home and requires you to shove yourselves into her closet so she can pretend she isn't living in one.

You say that living situation is a big thing generally, but not a factor in your response to this, butif you and your wife decide that Nukes cheating is a dealbreaker, are you sleeping in your car next month?

You people are in a hideous tangle of emotional and practical problems, and none of those problems can be isolated from the others. What you do about this incident is going to affect where you live, and your relationships with each other, and your interactions with your families and communities. Whether or not you forgive her, whether or not you continue to date, I would go apartment hunting, because she is asking you to be closeted in your shared home, and I wouldn't be down with that.

That said, I'd also advocate for resisting traditional breakup narratives like "she cheated". The whole thing was a mess, and you were all players. Learn everything you can from it and try to do better next time.
 
I'm going to resist the "Nukes is the mayor of Crazy Town" explanation that you're offering.

BlueShoes, I have always been a fan of your input, have loved to read your responses on other threads, and I am very appreciative for it now. Just... Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I am not in anyway trying to say that "Nukes is the mayer of Crazy Town." She has legitimate concerns about people finding out because of familial or work place ramifications. I am not saying that she is crazy, I would never say that about either of my partners. What I am saying is that she got so upset that she wouldn't listen to me.

It is not a loaded statement and there is no hidden implication. I am willing to bet that everyone has experienced this kind of event with at least one person in their lives before. She simply got really mad and anxious because she felt the problem was an issue with me not being okay with hiding our relationship. I was trying to tell her that it was an issue with my own physical insecurity that was being fueled by the disparity between the amount of engagement that she verbally says she wants to share with me and the amount that actually happens. However, Nukes was upset enough that she would not accept that my explanation of my feelings was correct. That is all that I am trying to say, nothing more.

You say that living situation is a big thing generally, but not a factor in your response to this, butif you and your wife decide that Nukes cheating is a dealbreaker, are you sleeping in your car next month?

You people are in a hideous tangle of emotional and practical problems, and none of those problems can be isolated from the others. What you do about this incident is going to affect where you live, and your relationships with each other, and your interactions with your families and communities. Whether or not you forgive her, whether or not you continue to date, I would go apartment hunting, because she is asking you to be closeted in your shared home, and I wouldn't be down with that.

We are not leaving Nukes. From the time that I first posted, leaving Nukes has not been something that is on the table. We all three decided on Sunday after she told us that we would continue in this relationship. We even decided that she could continue to see the guy on the side if she would like to and I went over and spoke with him so that he was aware of what the ground rules were; however, Nukes spoke with him last night and advised us that they were not going to continue seeing each other.

As far as living together is concerned, FF and I will be moving out; however, it is not due to this event. Nukes went to have dinner with her parents and grandparents after our conversation on Sunday. While there, her grandmothers told her for the first time that they were disappointed in her because her allowing us to live with her made them feel like they couldn't come over. One even said that she had planned to have her yearly Christmas get together at Nukes' house but now wasn't sure because of how it looked for the married couple to be living upstairs. Not disappointing her family is of paramount importance to Nukes and she become unraveled that night because all that she could think about was how much worse it would be if her family was aware of why we were living with her. So we as a group agreed that it would be best if FF and I moved out for the time being and that we would revisit building a home jointly once we can move away from her family.

Okay, I feel like this thread took a turn that I wasn't intending so I'd like to try to reel it back in. What I would like to ask for is advise on how to personally deal with the hurt feelings? I will continue to respond to comments or observations of any kind; however, that is specifically what I was actually looking for when I posted.
 
Why suggest just forgive her, or be kind etc? Cheating, to me, suggests a deep disrespect for the agreements made and the people who made them. I'd be breaking up with a cheater, not giving them a second chance.

This is exactly how FF felt and quite frankly is where she is saying that she isn't sure that she can forgive but is willing to try. I'm sure that FF will jump into this conversation shortly, but for the time being let me offer a brief elaboration of how she is feeling about this. FF is concerned that this was not an isolated incident but an intensification of a systemic passive aggressive behavior pattern. More specifically, that Nukes intentionally slept with someone else, and that guy in particular, because she was trying to punish me.

That being said, she feels that this is not a character issue with Nukes but a behavior one. Meaning that Nukes can choose to improve the behavior. Hence, FF is willing to try to give Nukes another chance.
 
It's pain, man. You feel it, you examine it, if you're lucky you can learn from it, but right now, there's not some trick to dealing with it or making it not an issue. It's pain. It's just there. It just hurts. Be kind to yourself. Protect the sore spots. Be polite to your partners about it if you can - opt for discussing your current boundaries rather than just slamming down defenses. Get through each day.

As a more general post-mortem, two things jump out. The first is that you guys moved really fast on this. Six months is early for one person to move in with one other person, for a couple to move in, it's fast enough to cause whiplash. I don't know whether you so much missed the important signals or just blew past them.

The second highly visible thing is that Nukes's closet is a really big problem - a lot of the problems you are bringing up here are problems with closets. Closets make things awkward when you deal with co-workers in contexts that have your partners in them. Closets isolate people from friends and family. Closets suck. Sometimes we choose them, for a variety of reasons, not all of which are bad, but when you ask someone to join you in your closet, you have to think very carefully about the construction of that space. I think that if you had examined the closet logistics better, you would never have moved in.

That being the case, I do think the imaginary firefighter and the closet are connected - in Nukes's head as well as in yours (so, pretty reasonable of her to get in a fight with you about closets when you thought you were fighting about the imaginary fireman) - and in a practical sense, as part of the same giant problem, which is that Nukes's closet is so badly constructed that, if it were a real structure, it would be condemned.

The more elaborate a lie is, the more effort and energy are required to maintain it. The long game on that imaginary firefighter looks pretty bad. He gots to go. If Nukes wants you to share her closet even part of the time, her closet needs to be better engineered.
 
BlueShoes made some excellent points.

So regarding feelings. I have observed that on the only occasions I've felt anything like "jealousy" it has been a two-part affair:

1. I lack. (and this is BY FAR the biggest piece)
2. Some external person or even factor or imagined something is getting what I feel I lack. I could be jealous of a football game if my partner neglected me to the point of lack and pain, jealous because I desire attention...of course I'd have to not get my needs met for longer than a single Sunday. But you get the drift, I hope.

So your intimacy needs aren't being met, and she has this whole closet and she's invented some studly firefighter who lives there with her. I think you realize that not getting your needs met is the bigger factor than the imaginary firefighter, yes?

OK.

Things that strike me as super weird here:

She keeps you two in the closet, then starts to cool. She compartmentalizes to the point where she's got an elaborate lie in place to the rest of the world about her home life with you. Does this mean she may also tell lies and weave fantasy at home to your face as it please her?

As in, maybe she did NOT in fact feel that she "would never" with coworker? Was that a lie when it was spoken? Why is she being so defensive? Does she feel she cannot speak honesty to you, or does she feel compelled to weave lies to protect herself, is there stuff in her past that made her do this as a defense/safety mechanism, even when there is no danger?

She doesn't seem good at open, honest communication stuff. Like, you try to talk to her about feelings, she wigs out and vanishes, goes "radio silent."

Is home situation ok? Does she have reasons to not be happy, like maybe place is a big mess or stuff not as happy as it was hoped before you moved in? Like maybe she bit off more than she could chew in this (very hasty) choice for ya'll to move in, and now she's not happy but doesn't know how to step up to face the facts. Being avoidant.

So then there is her sleeping with coworker. Why does he come over and do laundry? That also is odd. And you went and talked to him about ground rules, does that mean she is now out of the closet at work because he knows? Is he now also expected to help maintain the closet? What's up with that? As for her sleeping with him, the act itself...was there alcohol or drugs involved? If not, I would say she lied about being interested in the possibility, to you, and I would wonder why. For some reason she didn't feel ok talking about it to you. Maybe she only wanted a one night stand or casual, and you were talking about "secondary" and whatever, and she felt you might shame her for just wanting to bang the dude.

Thing is, the #1 Biggest Baddest Problem In The Room is not "she cheated" or "closet" or "firefighter lie." It's not your insecurities or the lack of intimacy going on. What IT is, is COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS.

If persons in relationships with one another cannot talk, even if the subjects are hard to talk about...if you can't be honest and speak it out and work it out for whatever reason, if anyone starts to be avoidant or not able to speak their piece...you have a relationship that is doomed. Sooner or later. If you can talk, you at least have a chance to fix most problems you might encounter. But if one or more of ya can't communicate well, it's gonna be hard to fix anything beyond that.

It sounds to me like she might have a past that (for some reason) taught her that it wasn't safe to be in full honest disclosure and that talking about emotional subjects is scary or difficult. If she has any abuse in her history, maybe it's related to that. I don't know. But I really think that's your biggest issue. And I am glad that you, Mr. Pants, and FieryFlames (I've missed you two!) are looking into getting your own place. Be prepared for the possibility that Nukes might not wish to continue in this triad. She might have been passively aggressively trying to end it...without coming right out and creating the confrontation of speaking her mind.
 
SPORK!!! I've (We've) missed talking with you! :)

I think you realize that not getting your needs met is the bigger factor than the imaginary firefighter, yes?

Indeed, I do recognize that.

As in, maybe she did NOT in fact feel that she "would never" with coworker? Was that a lie when it was spoken? Why is she being so defensive? Does she feel she cannot speak honesty to you, or does she feel compelled to weave lies to protect herself, is there stuff in her past that made her do this as a defense/safety mechanism, even when there is no danger?

When she told me about the guy telling her that he was interested, she was really afraid. In past relationships, something like that has always turned into a big fight because the other person essentially blames her. It is not something which makes much sense to FF and I; however, she started to cry in relief when we did not explode that way that she feared that we would.

Is home situation ok? Does she have reasons to not be happy, like maybe place is a big mess or stuff not as happy as it was hoped before you moved in? Like maybe she bit off more than she could chew in this (very hasty) choice for ya'll to move in, and now she's not happy but doesn't know how to step up to face the facts. Being avoidant.

The home life has actually be better than any of us hoped it would. We divided out house chores easily and have all worked together to keep the place up. The only thing that has been more than she can chew is the efforts of her mother. Nukes' mom comes over while we're gone and likes to snoop through her things, usually under the guise of doing laundry for her or something like that. Her mother didn't like us when we became close friends and was not happy when we moved in together.

The plan was as follows:
  1. Tell her mom that we were temporarily moving in because our A/C went out, and the landlady couldn't fix it for a while and did not have any other places available at this time.
  2. Tell her mom that we were having trouble finding a place within our budget (because we had a pretty sweet gig) that would allow for our dog, gun safe, etc. about a month in.
  3. Tell her mom that it was actually nice to have us around and that we were just going to stay because she wanted us to.

What happened though is that her mother very quickly started trying to help us get out of the house faster by searching for places and passing them along to Nukes. Nukes' mother also started to needle her about how we were just taking advantage of her and that if she didn't get us out fast that she might never get rid of us (because if you wait to long then we're essentially squaters in the eyes of the law or something...). The list continues, but what Nukes did not expect is that her mother would rally her grandparents to join in the needling.

So then there is her sleeping with coworker. Why does he come over and do laundry? That also is odd.

Nukes and I met while we were working on our graduate degrees. Nukes was a TA for this guy, supervised him as an undergraduate assistant, and eventually due to restructuring (he switched positions when he graduated this summer...) ended up being more of a mentor rather than a direct supervisor. This is a huge part of the reason that she cited for why she would never in any universe be interested in him. He comes over to do laundry because he still lives in the same place that he did during the last part of his undergrad and does not have a washer and dryer. When she bought this house about a year ago, she started letting him come over to use the facilities so that he didn't have to go pay for a laundromat. She also lets another undergrad come over to use her office when he needs a quite place to study.

And you went and talked to him about ground rules, does that mean she is now out of the closet at work because he knows? Is he now also expected to help maintain the closet? What's up with that?

That is a very good question. Apparently, before she slept with him she told him that we were together and he didn't seem to care much. So since she had already told him and we as a group had decided that she could continue to see him under a set of ground rules, I figured that I would go ahead and make sure that everyone was on the same page. I suppose that he is expected to tow the line... Although, when I went to talk to him he was very apologetic and adamant that he didn't know because he said that she mentioned something about FF and I in the moment and he didn't really think to ask for clarification. Keep in mind that he knew that we were best friends and had moved in, but also thought it was only temporary because that is the story she told to her coworkers as well.

As for her sleeping with him, the act itself...was there alcohol or drugs involved? If not, I would say she lied about being interested in the possibility, to you, and I would wonder why. For some reason she didn't feel ok talking about it to you. Maybe she only wanted a one night stand or casual, and you were talking about "secondary" and whatever, and she felt you might shame her for just wanting to bang the dude.

I honestly don't know whether any substances were involved, I did not ask. Nukes had one one night stand in the past and said that, in spite of the sex being great, it was one of the worst experiences of her life and she would never repeat it. She didn't like the way that it made her feel. The company that she works for is composed of like 10 people... And she is strongly of the opinion that dating or sleeping around within a company is bad, let alone doing so in one as small as the one she works for. For what it is worth, I believe that she was sincere when she said that she had no interest.

Thing is, the #1 Biggest Baddest Problem In The Room is not "she cheated" or "closet" or "firefighter lie." It's not your insecurities or the lack of intimacy going on. What IT is, is COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS.

I completely agree. This is something that we have discussed before because Nukes will at times say what she thinks we want to hear and not what she actually feels. I try to keep an eye on when this happens and call her out on it; however, I would never claim to be perfect.

Be prepared for the possibility that Nukes might not wish to continue in this triad. She might have been passively aggressively trying to end it...without coming right out and creating the confrontation of speaking her mind.

Maybe... That is something that FF and I have been worried about. However, I have given her ample opportunity to end the relationship amicably. When Nukes told me that she had cheated I went and got FF from upstairs and brought her down to be part of the conversation. At that point, the floor was opened for us to voice our opinions as to whether we wanted to try to proceed forward with our relationship. My vote was to stay in the relationship and that I felt that I could forgive. FF was more hesitant and after a little bit said that she would be willing to try and forgive. Nukes spent a lot more time thinking about it and while she was thinking I advised her that if she didn't want to be in the relationship anymore then all she needed to do was say so. Nukes ended up stating that she loved us, didn't want to lose us, and wanted to continue to be our partner.

Later that night after the dinner with her parents and grandparents when she was unraveled, I held her while she was crying. She was certain that the only solution was for us to terminate the triad. As I held her, I told her that the only thing I could ask of her is to make the decision which was best for her. I told her that it was alright if that decision meant terminating the triad and further, that doing so wouldn't change that I love her and that she is one of my best friends; however, that was a choice that she had to make and she would actually have to say it because I wasn't going to do it for her. Over the next 1.5-2 hours this sentiment was reiterated a few times in different ways but every time she started thinking about saying the words she would start to dry heave. She said that she didn't want to end the triad, but couldn't take the disappointment from her grandmothers, felt so bad about how she had hurt us, and was just certain that staying together would only result in her scaring us more.

Her actions have been interpreted as self sabotage or intentionally trying to get us to end the relationship by the few people that we can talk to about it; however, when given ample opportunity to end it, she hasn't done so.
 
OK so...

1. Your assessment is she had no real intent on Coworker. But when in a moment, she still went there. Sounds to me like maybe inability to do boundaries. Doesn't know how to say "no."

(It's harder than you think for some folks...I'm one of them. I have a hell of a time.)

2. She cannot stand up to anyone and declare herself, is scared of disapproval, and seriously conflict avoidant. This is evident in the closeting, compartmentalization, elaborate lie about firefighter, and dealing with Mom and Grandparents. She is so damned used to letting people walk all over her that she can't seem to find her voice. Another data point that indicates this, is that these other women seem to be accustomed to stepping in and trying to create boundaries FOR her, not respecting her ability to make her own choices. Sounds like a vicious cycle to me. They think they're helping by standing up for her, she lets it happen, never gives them any hard "no"s and they continue to think she is helpless and try to interfere, rinse repeat.

3. And here's where things come to you and FF.

Remember, I am only guessing here. She might be crying for help and needing a team. I think she could use your support and any help she can get in strengthening herself and learning to voice her own needs. The problem is, you have NO way of knowing if she is having sex with you because she wants to, or because she is trying to maintain a bond with her support network. In which case, honestly, if you are awake and aware and she is trapped, silent, and dysfunctional in her ability to do boundaries, I hate to break it to you, but you probably should not be doing intimacy with her. Is her consent to it REALLY valid, if she doesn't know how to say no?

So my call in this situation... First off, I'm assuming that you and FF pay rent, yeah? You're helping her out? In which case, who she has as roommates in her house shouldn't be any of her family's damn business. They don't live there, why would they feel entitled to hold a holiday there or tell her what she can do with her home? That's nutty, they are being manipulative of her like she is a child. Unless you and FF ARE taking advantage of her...and that's a question for you to work out.

I suggest that if you want to help her, you tell her that she has GOT to find her own voice and that she is safe telling you LITERALLY ANYTHING. You're not going to blow up at her. She won't be the bad guy. But that it is vital that she figure out her needs and boundaries properly, and after that, man, she's got a TEAM. Team Nukes. You'll help back her up to anyone. Not as her partners in a triad, but as her FRIENDS. If you keep living there, draw up a lease. Do it proper, so that these biddies can't say you're "squatting" or whatever. And help her stand up to them. But I'd seriously consider ending the romantic and sex part, until she works out her issues...therapy might help, but it might just be a matter of time, learning that she is safe to stand her ground in her own needs, wants, boundaries.

I know I could be way off, but that's my thinking from what you've put out here.
 
Your assessment is she had no real intent on Coworker. But when in a moment, she still went there. Sounds to me like maybe inability to do boundaries. Doesn't know how to say "no."

I do believe that she had no intent when we talked; however, as far as when she went over... I am not sure what to think. There have been three total versions of the story: 2 stated by her, 1 not disputed.
  1. She first said that she had decided that our triad was essentially over because she felt that there was no way to resolve the issues that I had been trying to discuss with her. So she went over and had sex with him. It was easy because she didn't have to worry about any of the things she has to with us (permanence, societal stigma, extreme familial judgment, etc.).
  2. She then said that she went over with no intent of having sex with him, but she did go over because she wanted to see if the sex issue was me or her. She said that she wanted to see if she felt the spark to engage without provocation, that she did feel the spark, and sex just happened.
  3. During the time that I was holding her, I advised her that I hoped that she wasn't trying to self sabotage. I told her that I personally didn't understand how sex could just happen and that I hoped that she hadn't just gone over to have sex with him in an attempt to upset me enough to break up with her. She didn't say anything. She just kept her head on my chest and nodded slightly.

FF is currently of the feeling that Nukes intentionally cheated in an effort to hurt me... FF will probably post tonight... She has really been itching to but hasn't had the time. I do believe that Nukes has a problem saying no.

Remember, I am only guessing here. She might be crying for help and needing a team. I think she could use your support and any help she can get in strengthening herself and learning to voice her own needs. The problem is, you have NO way of knowing if she is having sex with you because she wants to, or because she is trying to maintain a bond with her support network. In which case, honestly, if you are awake and aware and she is trapped, silent, and dysfunctional in her ability to do boundaries, I hate to break it to you, but you probably should not be doing intimacy with her. Is her consent to it REALLY valid, if she doesn't know how to say no?

This is an issue that I have tried really hard to be aware of and is absolutely a valid concern. From the beginning of our relationship, I have insisted to her that she should only engage with me when she actually wants to do so. The first time we were together (a month in) we talked about it afterwards and she said that she had done so because she felt that she could give me something that she thought I needed with out it taking much from her. This was not okay with me and at that point she promised me that she would only engage with me when she wanted to.

As far as I know, her telling me no isn't an issue for her at this point. She said before that the other guys that she has been with would usually get angry when she said no "too many times" and that hasn't been an issue with us. There was one point where she was studying for her qualifying exam, which was a couple weeks out, and she was worried that I would get upset if she told me that she didn't want to have sex until after the exam because she was having text anxiety and not interested sexually. However, I noticed that she was acting a little strange and we talked about it and agreed to hold off until after the exam.

I know that this doesn't in any way guarantee that the times she has consented have been valid; however, I hope that it does at least offer support that it has been.

In which case, who she has as roommates in her house shouldn't be any of her family's damn business. They don't live there, why would they feel entitled to hold a holiday there or tell her what she can do with her home? That's nutty, they are being manipulative of her like she is a child.

Nukes is completely independent financially. We do have have any formal kind of rent agreement, but instead share the costs of the household (utilities, food, mortgage, etc.). Yes, it is a little nutty; however, her mom is already planning the families thanksgiving at her house and her grandmothers are planning to have their Christmas social there. I think this gets into her inability to say no to them and the high priority that she places on what her family thinks of her. FF has actually started telling Nukes that she should start setting boundaries, especially with her mother (who is a narcissist).

I suggest that if you want to help her, you tell her that she has GOT to find her own voice and that she is safe telling you LITERALLY ANYTHING.

This is something we've actually been doing since we became friends. Nukes has told us that we are stabilizing for her and we make her feel at home. She still gets a nervous about somethings and it is still a work in progress; however, we are indeed endeavoring to give her a Team Nukes where she can vent or discuss any and everything knowing that we've got her back. She is so used to fighting alone that sometimes she still runs off, but for the most part I think she's started backing into the unit.
 
I'm glad to hear this stuff.

Yeah, I don't think that her challenges are insurmountable ones. But they are hard. And when there's hard stuff needing worked through, honesty and communication and trust are the key things.

A couple of things I forgot to mention:

Be careful with terminology. Your mission is to empower her, so she feels she can stand strong and state her needs and her boundaries, yes? With Team Nukes totally having her back. That would be cool. So I'd respectfully suggest care in using wording like "ground rules." That is couple privilege/treating her like child you make rules for...stuff. As others have said, while it may only be semantics, there is a difference in "rules" and "ultimatums" versus "boundaries."

So a rule/ultimatum would be : "Don't have sex outside of relationship, or I'll leave you!"

A boundary would be : "I choose to be in fidelitous relationships, and if you choose to go against agreements without our discussion and agreement, I can not trust you with my sexual or emotional safety, and I may have to leave, to protect myself."

And with regard to difficulty she may have with communicating hard subjects, may I suggest a different medium? Have you tried letters, journals, email? Sometimes it's easier to write something out, than to speak it. And then maybe a cooldown/processing period, or brainstorm ideas that might help her feels safer and more comfortable with communicating.
 
Crikey, she's 27 and doesn't put up a fuss about her busybody mother coming over when she's not home and snooping? Why doesn't she change the lock? Once you're an adult, your mother needs to respect that she's not the Mom in Charge anymore - she's the woman who gave birth to and raised you, but there is no need for the mothering and getting into a grown offspring's business to continue.

And you believe this bizarre story about her grandmother feeling uncomfortable coming over because Nukes has a married couple as boarders/housemates? Like that is something no one else has ever done before in all of human history? It's such a weird excuse. Does granny come from another planet, or is Nukes making that up???

I think there are two major problems here: 1. Nukes seems quite immature for her age and has issues with boundaries and communication ; and 2. You all moved in way, way, WAY too soon, before you could know each other better and navigate the hiding, the seemingly unhealthy familial entanglement, and other quirks.

I also think that it's simply unrealistic to expect or insist on polyfidelity from the get-go. But that's me. I know it's important for some people but I think it only sets everybody up for disappointment. _ You three lost out on enjoying the dating-and-getting-to-know-you phase, which is so important. I think that moving out is the best thing you could do right now, for everyone's sanity.

I think the best way to deal with the pain is to look at the parts you all played and forgive each other and yourselves, AND to move this much more slowly after you move out. In essence, you hardly know each other at all. Rebuild trust by not expecting so much all at once. Date her, don't start making rules about whether she can see someone else or not; you don't own her. Take things much easier from now on, loosen up.
 
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OK, I will try to address what you have specifically asked for.

First of all, I am glad you and FF are moving out again. I am sorry you sold most of your stuff! Lesson learned can be, do not move in with a new lover in the rush of NRE. I'd say, most of the time, people come to regret that (there are very rare exceptions, but it's more luck than anything else).

If you are hurt that Nukes has her "fantasy firefighter bf" as a cover lover, and she is not giving you the amount of sex you want, and you've even extrapolated that to mean she desires a single burly male lover, not a married couple, as her fidelitous lovers, let's look at that.

She may or may not wish for variety in her lovers. I do not doubt she loves you and FF, but obviously there are many barriers to that love being expressed in a healthy way. First and foremost, living with you two has made her very uncomfortable. Her grandmothers know you and FF live there, and they feel weird about that, not even knowing y'all are partners! So, continuing in the relationship, but living apart, does seem a safer choice for Nukes.

Once she feels less nervous about that, she may relax and become more sexually responsive. Perhaps. But a good once a week session still may be all she is up for. Can you handle that? Her NRE seems to be fading in the midst of all the sneaking around and opposition, and your jealousy of a fantasy. Often sex becomes less frequent once NRE fades.

I am not sure you going to this friend of hers, who does laundry at her house, to tell him bro to bro it's OK for him to shag your woman, was the best choice in the world, but what's done is done. I know your heart was in the right place.

Whether they continue to have sex still seems unsure. Seems that words and actions are not matching up much these days. Having a married FM couple as lovers is making FF very upset. Adding in your jealousy over her "fantasy bf" doesn't help right now. But if Nukes is living a lie with her family and at work, as far as what people know about her love relationships, the lies will add up. "Oh, the tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." It just gets worse and worse. And sometimes people begin to believe their own lies. And now laundry guy knows you and your wife are Nukes' lovers, or maybe he is one who always knew. Maybe several others know. Things have a way of getting out... I'd be nervous and second guessing things if I were Nukes too.

As far as how to deal with YOUR feelings (and I assume, FF's feelings), I'd not press Nukes to be more out, or to be polyfi. Would it be healthier FOR HER to cut things off and pursue monogamy right now? Try to set aside your own feelings just for a moment and think of her safety. Once she feels more stable and autonomous, your (plural) relationship with her might take a better happier shape.
 
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