Finally, there is clarity? Then and now with OnceAndFuture

That is very kind of you to say :) I wish I could do as well in my verbal communication, as I sometimes struggle at choosing the right words when I'm speaking (or, more often, I talk just like I write, which makes me sound stilted).

I don't think my next entry here is going to be so much of a, well, reverie. It may take me a while to write. I am afraid it's not going to be a happy entry.
 
So yeah.

The weekend went really well or so I thought. The Actress was out of town, so The Signal and I decided to travel to her favorite restaurant and go to a few of her favorite stores. We were going to do it on Saturday, but that day ended up being incredibly cold so we went on Sunday instead. Both days we talked and talked and talked. We talked about boundaries, about a lot of things both of us were thinking about, and about how she felt about polyamory. It seemed that she was very interested in me going to meetings and being able to talk to other poly people. She also talked about what her boundaries would be when I started dating…if I did, which she seemed to support. I talked about what I was feeling and I said that I was planning to go slow on everything as I was doubting that I would find anyone soon. Still the conversations seemed positive.

We spent literally the entire weekend together except for maybe two hours when The Signal was out running. It was still a very heated time in a good way. She and I were even trying a few new things. The only down part of the weekend was when we got home on Sunday and we had a misunderstanding, but we talked things out again and we went to bed happy. It seemed as though she was being accepting and that we were moving ahead. I repeatedly asked her if she was OK with everything and she agreed she was.

There had been one strange incident at the end of last week. We had been reviewing our relationship with K and I remarked that we didn’t have any pictures of K, that we’d managed to get rid of them all. She said, well, I think there are some in the dead e-mail account we used to use to contact her. I said something like “oh that might be interesting” and left it at that. Then Friday she sent me a couple of e-mails titled “Don’t open these at work”. When I got home I opened the emails to find some, uh, rather explicit pictures of K (and um me). The Signal explained that she’d thought I’d like to see them. I said, well, I understand you did that for positive reasons but if you are concerned that I am still holding a torch for her it probably wasn’t the best thing to do to send those kinds of pictures to me. I also asked her if she had read any of the old emails she sent to us. She said no, she wasn’t going to read them. Well on Sunday she started saying “I read some things that really hurt me,” and it was clear that she actually had read a lot of them. “I only started reading them because I was looking for the pictures.” She started getting really upset about them, saying that she didn’t realize how much she’d been played for a fool, and started going on about them in great detail. I was kind of upset that she hadn’t been truthful about reading them and that it seemed that she was dwelling on things that hurt her.

So then yesterday evening we had agreed to meet up at home to watch the X-Files. I was running late and I got home maybe about two or three minutes late. She was really angry at that. I thought I was going to make it home on time but I just couldn’t because I underestimated the time it would take to get there and because the weather was bad. She said a lot of sarcastic and angry things to me and I accepted responsibility.

After the show was over she folded her arms and started in on me. “Is this how it’s going to be now that you’re poly? Are you just going to start ignoring me and treating me second-best?” I tried to say that I didn’t think that being poly had anything to do with me being late. She said that me being poly meant that I thought she wasn’t enough for me, and that I’d lied about her being enough for me for five years. She then said that, actually, she wasn’t OK with anything we’d talked about all weekend and that the only reason she’d suggested the boundaries she had was because she “didn’t want to start an argument and make a scene.” I asked her then why when I asked her she was OK with things when she wasn’t. She said that she wasn’t lying because she was not “solid OK” with the boundaries but only “theoretically OK” and was only agreeing with me because she didn’t want to argue. She said that all of the dating boundaries she’d brought up (on her own initiative, without me asking about it) were moot because actually she wasn’t OK with me dating anyway. Again this wasn’t lying because I had “never specifically asked if dating was OK,” even though it seemed kind of pointless to ask that when she’d brought up the subject of dating boundaries. She said she would never be OK with me dating or loving anyone else because this would “prove that (she) was not enough” and that this would be hitting her biggest triggers. And she said that because of this, we were going to need to divorce because “you’ll never be OK with being unable to date, and because I’m not enough for you and I can’t live with you knowing that.”

I reiterated that being poly didn’t mean I needed to be actively poly. I said that, if she wasn’t OK with me dating, I would not date anyone. She said, no, that wasn’t good enough because she was “forcing” me to not date. She also accused me of wanting to have “emotional affairs” with other women and that she knew she would never be enough. It was really a difficult argument to handle. She told me that I had ruined her life by coming out as poly and that our relationship was doomed because she couldn’t handle knowing what she now knew about me. For a while I was pretty sure our relationship was doomed because she was being so self-destructive and seemed so comfortable with saying that the issues we’d agreed on the day before she was fine with going back on with no discussion.

Sometimes when she and I argue she gets into a bad loop of low self-esteem and blame—of both me and herself, and sometimes she snaps out of this loop almost instantaneously. This seemed to happen late last night. She suddenly admitted that her low self-esteem was causing her to question whether she was enough for me, and the e-mails from K she’d been evasive about reading had been playing with her mind. She still wasn’t sure that she could handle me being poly or the emotions that might be caused by me dating. But maybe, she said, because she was bad about making decisions, I should be the one who should be making decisions on where our boundaries should be. I said I didn’t like that because I didn’t feel comfortable setting boundaries that she might not like, and especially because when she got upset or angry the level of things that she was comfortable could change dramatically. She said she did realize I loved her and that she needed to learn to trust me. I still wasn’t happy with that. We agreed before we went to sleep that we would discuss where our boundaries were during the week.

This morning there was a major snowstorm here, and my workplace closed down for the day. For some reason she decided that she wouldn’t go into work either. She has been pretty clingy all day. When I went out to shovel the driveway she suddenly decided she had to go out to help. It’s past 7 now and this is the first time she’s let me be alone all day. Apart from her run we have spent almost every waking non-working minute since The Actress left on Saturday morning together (although this morning I woke at 4 unable to sleep and I did post here). She says she is worried I won’t spend enough time with her if I am actively poly. The way things are now, she’s going to be upset if I’m spending an hour or two a week away.

She seems very vested in demonstrating that she’s happy and OK with talking about things. She’s started saying things like “I can be OK with you being poly” and “maybe some time later this year I will be OK with you going on dates, although I can’t guarantee that or even if I’ll ever be OK.” But to tell the truth I am not certain I can believe her any more. While it has been a comfortable day and we have had comfortable conversations I thought she was being straight with me on Sunday. I’ve been careful to not upset her about anything. But now I’m not sure whether what she says when she is seemingly calm is what she believes, or what she thinks I want to hear. And I’m not sure whether what she says when she is upset is the truth, or if it’s calculated to hurt me because she feels hurt. It is difficult. We have always been able to discuss things with each other, even during the worst times during our relationship with K. Now I am starting to feel that I can’t trust her. It’s a hard place to be.

The Signal tells me now that she wants me to go to meetups and post here. But seeing how upset she was about me being even a couple of minutes late, I can’t see how she’s going to be OK with me being away for a couple of hours (and she still thinks I am going there to hook up, even though I have no intention of doing so now, so I’m not sure how she will be OK). And she tells me she will leave me to post here because it is a “safe space” for me, but seeing now how she was evasive about reading the e-mails that she had promised not to read because they would hurt her…I’m concerned that she might go back on that promise if she gets upset again.

Honestly I’m starting to wonder what I can do to move forward at this point. In our relationship with K, I was trying to end things but she kept refusing to let me do so because she was afraid she was “forcing” me to do so—and she said if I ended things on my own she’d leave me for going behind her back. She now admits that she should have let me end it. But now she says “I don’t want to force you not to date.” I feel like I can’t date (or go to meetups, or whatever) because it would be extremely hurtful to her, but I can’t not date because then she would think she was responsible for “forcing” me to not date.

It feels like a very dark place now. I am afraid of the next blowup.
 
That sounds like a really, really tough situation to be in. :(

That sort of back and forth and not being truthful (about how she feels about stuff, about reading the emails, etc.) is terrifying behavior to me. She is really placing you in an impossible situation with this whole "can't date, can't not date" situation. :(
 
I did fear being in this situation. When we were with K, The Signal wouldn't let me break up with her--even after the K cheated on us and I wasn't all that thrillled about spending time with her. She admitted afterwards if I'd just called K on my own and broken up she would have left me. So I was in a situation where I couldn't stay with or leave K.

We both realize it is a self esteem issue with her. She does not want to appear to be forcing me to stop doing something she thinks I want to do, even if I actually don't want to do it. It is something she is working on with her counselor. I realize it is also a bit of a communication issue with us, that we do what we think each other will want sometimes.

Lastly I realize that if and when I do date, I will need the ability to say no for my own sake, when a situation is bad or if I need to step back. It's something we will work on.
 
The Signal and I had some long conversations this week. On Wednesday she spoke to her counselor, and they discussed a lot of her fears. One of the things that the counselor suggested was that she ask me to write down what I felt should be the boundaries to our relationship--the counselor felt that we might be closer together on things than The Signal thought. Our conversation that night indicated that the counselor might be right.

There are a few things we are not sure about yet. I am still concerned that, when The Signal is not upset, she is more agreeable to things, and that she may go back on these agreements when she is upset about something else. There are a few issues about privacy that we are considering how to word properly. We also considered including the phrase "love is infinite, but time and money are not" but we also thought about our other issues concerning time and money, and I'm not sure we're ready to formulate boundaries around them. For the most part we agreed on everything. It only took us about two hours on Wednesday to decide on things and an hour for me to write everything down on Thursday night.

A lot of the things we argued about on Monday night were addressed. The problem I have discussed here about feeling "unable to be in a relationship, unable to not pursue a relationship" was something I admitted to. We agreed that at present I'm not ready. I fear going out to find someone and not being able to, and I also fear being hurt in a relationship. Although I want to be with someone, I've only been able to admit that recently, and I have to face my fear of rejection and being hurt.

We agree that for most people in a poly relationship reading this, these rules might sound restrictive. But for us in a poly/mono relationship, especially considering who I am and that I have only recently decided to pursue this, we have to go slowly. I hope these ideas will be helpful to others.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mission statement for our boundaries.

These boundaries for our relationship, and any relationship which we may enter into in the future, are created out of a spirit of understanding, respect, consent, and love. These boundaries are not designed to constrain, but rather to allow our love to flourish. The overriding goal of these boundaries is to provide a space for both of us to feel safe to express ourselves, while at the same time reaffirming our love for each other.

Ten boundaries for our relationship.

1. Our love for each other will never end. Any activity which either of us may take part in—whether or not it involves a third party—that threatens our love should be immediately addressed.

2. Our love means that we respect each other’s individuality. Each of us should be respectful of the other’s inclination to monogamy, polyamory, or any predisposition between the two. Each of us should also be respectful of each other’s sexual orientation.

3. We have always looked out for each other and will always do so. Each of us is free at any time to speak up when we feel that the other is being hurt, either by the other or by a third party.

4. However, we take responsibility for our own well-being. Each of us has the right to speak up when we feel we are being hurt, either by the other or by a third party. Each of us also has the right to end any third-party relationship that is hurtful.

5. Some limits are non-negotiable, and our home shall remain inviolate. We both agree never to have children by a third party, invite a third party to live in our home, or share finances with a third party. Any activity which threatens our home, our finances, or our family well-being is prohibited.

6. Polyamory and non-monogamy are not imperatives. Each of us reserves the right to not look for a relationship, date others, or enter into sexual relations with others.

7. Our relationship needs time if we wish it to evolve. Each of us has the right to request to slow down what we see as changes to our relationship, and to start a conversation about it.

8. We are respectful of other persons as well as each other. We will not enter into any relationship with a third party unless all parties are completely able to accept the nature of the relationship, as it is negotiated at its outset. (Example: Neither of us will start dating anyone unless the other is fully able to accept the relationship. To allow the other person to start dating when we both are not ready is both deceptive to our partner, and potentially harmful to the third party.)

9. We agree, at the onset of these boundaries, that we are not ready for either of us to enter a relationship—dating, loving, or sexual—with a third party.

10. If at any time in the future one or both of us desires to enter a relationship with a third party, the boundaries of this relationship will be negotiated in a spirit of respect. Each partner reserves the right to meet—or not meet—the third party.
 
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I think you may want to review #4. Being responsible for one's own feelings and well-being would be the exact opposite of ending your partner's other relationship when feeling hurt.

People aren't always on the same page about what they think is hurtful and, when one is steeped in feeling hurt and offended, it is so very easy to point the finger at a partner and say it is all their fault, or their other partner's fault. I've come to realize that most of the hurt I've experienced comes out of my own thoughts and perspective on things, and not necessarily the actions of others. For example, someone may want to say something with the intent of hurting me but it doesn't work because I don't see it as hurtful, or I'm able to see the situation and their intent so clearly that I'm able to deflect it or not let it bother me. And yet, when I'm in a bad place, I'll take offense at almost anything.

Nobody can ever realistically promise never to hurt another person. We can make every best effort not to, but we can't control what goes on inside another person's head and how they will perceive or judge a situation or behavior. Too many people refuse to take responsibility for their own feelings.

The part in #4 where it says "Each of us also has the right to end any third-party relationship that is hurtful" is going to set you both up to fail and to blame, and will curtail any potential learning experiences that can come out of the insecurities and perceived hurts that might arise when one or both of you engage in other relationships.

Revisit that and rethink it. Interesting that that sentence is there, given how emotionally unstable The Signal has been whenever she's just thought about you being with someone else. Being okay with vetoes is just an excuse to be cruel to whomever it might be that you get involved with besides The Signal. No person in their right mind would agree to be in a relationship with you if they knew that your wife has been given the green light to pull the plug on it if she's feeling a little hurt.
 
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I think I should clarify #4 a little and explain why I wrote it that way. What it actually means is "if I, OnceAndFuture, am in a third-party relationship that I think is harmful to me, I, OnceAndFuture, can choose to end it." Now I'm sure at this point you're thinking "why wouldn't you have control over your own relationships?" But that was a big problem with my relationship between K* and I. The Signal didn't want me to end it even when it was hurting me because she felt I was doing it for "her sake" and that I really wanted the relationship to continue and was just patronizing her. In actuality I wanted out for my own reasons and I felt trapped in a bad romance.

#4 came from The Signal and I realizing that we have to be able to stand up and say "look, I'm being hurt in this other relationship I'm having outside of our marriage here, I need to be able to end this for my own well-being." In other words, rather than giving someone else veto power, we're realizing that each person needs autonomy over their own relationships. To be able to say, "it's my decision to end this if I need to" if I'm dating someone and I don't think it's going well. In fact #4 was The Signal's way of saying "I won't interfere in your decisions." I should probably make this clearer.

*Bluebird said in another thread that she didn't like initials. She's not the first to say that to me. So, from here on out K will be referred to as The Star (my nickname for her at the time), and her husband E will be The Silent (not 100% true but in many situations the name would have been appropriate).
 
That might be a good idea. I will probably combine #4 and #6 and add something about love, time, and money as a tenth rule. Not that The Signal and I are wedded to 10 but it is a nice round number with some history behind it. And I realize that these rules will change over time too.
 
Between here and work I have been writing a lot lately. So let me add to that a little.

1. Things are even more heated between The Signal and me. This is a wonderful development. Before I admitted to being poly we were really stuck in a rut. Now we have an important use for our noise machine. All this heatedness is leading her to reconsider where she wants to go with nonmonogamy. She admitted to me that one of her fantasies is watching me have sex with another woman. Awful as our relationship with The Star (the girlfriend previously known as “K”) was to her, that is a memory from that time that she can’t quite reject, and she’s been talking about it a lot lately. I’m not quite sure where she stands on the spectrum of “this is fun to talk about between us” and “this is something I want to make happen.” The boundaries we wrote earlier this week included a line about us not being ready for a third-party relationship right now. I’m still leaning towards that for myself, but I think she might actually be ready for a sexual relationship. Time-wise she’s not, but mentally she is. I realize this is a major change from the long-ago argument we had on, well, Monday. So I’m thinking we should hold off anyway. I’m also not sure how much this is intended to be a method of replacing The Star in her fantasies with “woman to be named later.”

In any event I’m learning quickly that polyamory and monogamy aren’t exactly antonyms. I’m not ready to change my signature yet again but “mono” isn’t a precise descriptor of The Signal. Again, I’m not about to say a week after our big blowup that she’s ready to do this. And what this means for me and polyamory I’m not certain (although The Signal was quick to say that we met The Star through what was supposed to be a casual sexual encounter, though it was clear even after our first date things weren’t going to happen that way). Still, The Signal seems a little keen for us to in her words “get our vanilla on.”

2. So I went to a poly group last week. I didn’t mention it earlier because reasons. It was an interesting evening. I was actually the oldest person there (not by much), the only person not currently in a poly relationship, and the only person not in the kink community. Despite that I felt very welcomed. The leader of the group likes to talk a bit, but I did get the opportunity to ask questions and have questions asked of me. I was surprised that I was able to speak with a bit of knowledge. I have learned something from this place.

More than one of the persons there suggested that The Signal and I talk to a member who couldn’t make it to the group, someone who has a lot of good advice to give on poly relationships and how to work through problems. The Signal is interested in going, surprisingly, but not to that group—there’s a group in another city that leans heavily towards feminism and LGBT issues, and she feels a greater attraction to that group. Right now the intent is that I go to their welcome session next month and then she would attend a later session. I’m surprised yet not surprised by The Signal’s evolution on this. She has been thinking lately that she wants to be more involved in feminist and LGBT activism. I still want to talk to the sage of the first group, who came highly recommended as a mentor. (I also want to talk to the cute, bespectacled young woman who’s interested in boardgames, hiking, and writing who signed up to the group but couldn’t make it. But then I would.)

Overall I’m feeling a bit more confident about talking about poly with others. This is a big step for me. Talking of which…

3. There is a friend of mine who I’ve known for some years who is the only poly friend I know. Well she’s poly in all but name. It’s no secret to anyone who knows her that while she’s happily married she also is in a heated long-term relationship with a domme, who her husband kind of sort of puts up with. She lives in the same town as my sister, but she’s in a band and she tours a lot, and when she comes to my city we try to meet up. Earlier this week she decided to start writing a little on Facebook about nonmonogamy, and I responded positively. Then I summoned up enough courage to send her a message saying that, yeah, I’d kind of bitten the bullet and admitted to my wife that I was poly. She sent a nice message back saying she was happy for me and said that she was thinking about being more open about her status. To be honest I’m not sure what she could say that would really surprise anybody, but I was grateful to get some positive reinforcement.

The complicating factor in all this is that my friend is approximately as hot as the sun. So much so that I caught The Signal looking at Facebook pictures of her the other day, and she defended that by saying, quote, “like you’re upset by that.” My friend doesn’t tour here until at least the end of the year, so I have until then to figure out how to meet up with her and be all friendly. Or not.

4. There is a lady in The Signal’s social group who she thinks is flirting with her. The Signal protests that this lady is “too young” for her, “not tall enough,” “definitely not my type all right!” Hmmm, yeah.

5. I’ve been thinking lately, why am I writing in this journal if I don’t have a poly relationship to talk about? That seems to be the main focus of the other blogs here. I suppose that in a sense that alone makes my blog have some value, in that I’ve got other things to write about like the boundaries The Signal and I came up with, or the evolution of our poly/mono(ish) relationship. And it is helpful to get feedback (thank you nycindie :) ).

But really I’m starting to think that what I’m getting out of writing is that firstly I’m pouring my heart out a little at a time. My friend wrote on Facebook about the power of words and how love follows its own language. That’s something I’ve been thinking about lately too. Putting together our boundaries was a loving exercise for The Signal and I, in that we were putting into words where we feel our love is going to go. I’ve been thinking more carefully about what I say to The Signal and the words I choose when we discuss our relationship—and since we’ve been discussing it pretty much every day, there’s been a lot to think about. But it’s only here that I get to say what I’m thinking without a lot of censorship. I do need that.

Secondly I can’t help but feel that there must be other people out there in my situation. One of the reasons The Signal wanted me to keep posting here was that she knows I like helping others, and that maybe there were people out there who needed to read what I wrote. This, to someone whose total writing output has consisted of a history dissertation that almost nobody has ever read and two failed novels, is admittedly a little gratifying. Somebody out there must be reading what I’m writing. I can’t help but notice that following my boundaries post the view count on this blog thread increased dramatically.

I apologize for going a bit meta here. But I figure there might be some people reading this who are poly with a mono partner who are struggling with how to come up with the right things to say, or are questioning themselves on how they might know who they are, or wonder like me if they’ll ever make the jump from “poly” to “actively poly”. I can’t pretend that I have the solutions to those problems. I also don’t want you lurkers to post here if you’re not ready.

Just…know that you’re not alone. And thank you for reading my ramblings.
 
I really enjoy reading your ramblings :)

A lot of what you describe reminds me of things my husband and I went through years ago. I'm hesitant to give advice, mostly because any advice I have is very Andy-and-Claire specific, and in all likelihood wouldn't work for any other marriage! In general, I think there's something really powerful about defining non-monogamy for yourself. It doesn't matter how others did it, or what boundaries they have, just that you and your partner(s) are happy.

Having said that, your list of boundaries was like, the least restrictive list of initial boundaries I've ever seen ;)
 
A few thoughts I hope you'll consider:

There are a few issues about privacy that we are considering how to word properly.
I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts were on privacy. Privacy for the two of you or privacy for you and the Theoretical New Girlfriend? I ask because as that New Girlfriend, I was stunned to find 18 months into our relationship that the man who promised me it would be like any other relationship (except no marriage) had been letting me send personal, private e-mails to an account that his wife had full access to. It left me feeling that I was little more than a toy to entertain him, that nobody even bothered telling me my personal e-mails to him were fully accessible to a third party. Does TNGF get privacy?

....For the most part, we agreed on everything. It only took us about two hours on Wednesday to decide on things and an hour for me to write everything down on Thursday night.
The two of you have agreed on everything. Where does this leave TNGF? Will you date only someone who agrees to everything the two of you have already decided for her, or will you date someone who appeals to you and expect her to fit herself into all the previously-made agreements--agreements made by someone else, about her relationship?


I fear going out to find someone and not being able to, and I also fear being hurt in a relationship. Although I want to be with someone, I've only been able to admit that recently, and I have to face my fear of rejection and being hurt.
I think you need to broaden your vision here and realize that the theoretical new girlfriends may end up being hurt, too. I would strongly advise you to read some groups frequented by secondary singles--unless you're committed to dating only married poly women--and see the ways in which they have been hurt by married poly men, particularly by couple privilege. And your guidelines are screaming couple privilege to me.


These boundaries for our relationship, and any relationship which we may enter into in the future, are created out of a spirit of understanding, respect, consent, and love. These boundaries are not designed to constrain, but rather to allow our love to flourish. The overriding goal of these boundaries is to provide a space for both of us to feel safe to express ourselves, while at the same time reaffirming our love for each other.
What about the respect, consent, and love of the women you bring into this? What are the boundaries with The Signal that allow their love to flourish? Will they have safe space to feel safe expressing themselves?


1. Our love for each other will never end. Any activity which either of us may take part in—whether or not it involves a third party—that threatens our love should be immediately addressed.
What if you and another woman fall in love? What if you wine her, dine her, romance her, do things that cause her to fall in love? It's great having someone in love with you. It feels good. What are the rules and agreements that protect her should anything threaten her love?


3. We have always looked out for each other and will always do so. Each of us is free at any time to speak up when we feel that the other is being hurt, either by the other or by a third party.
What if a new girlfriend feels you are being hurt by The Signal? What if she's been with you for two or three years, sees things that bother her, genuinely feels you're being hurt? Is she free to speak up? Based on your previous guidelines, I'm guessing not, that you intend there always to be a different set of standards for the girlfriends.

10. If at any time in the future one or both of us desires to enter a relationship with a third party, the boundaries of this relationship will be negotiated in a spirit of respect. Each partner reserves the right to meet—or not meet—the third party.
What are the third party's rights to decide this?

I'm asking these things and pointing these things out because they're things that left me feeling like a second class citizen with my married bf--who btw had 15+ years of experience with open marriage when I met him and believed they did poly better than anyone they knew. He no doubt still believes this.

However, if you want a real relationship, rather than just a steady sex partner, I believe the things you're suggesting in your agreement with The Signal are going to leave these 'girlfriends' feeling like second class citizens, and feeling used and disrespected.
 
However, if you want a real relationship, rather than just a steady sex partner, I believe the things you're suggesting in your agreement with The Signal are going to leave these 'girlfriends' feeling like second class citizens, and feeling used and disrespected.

Having said that, your list of boundaries was like, the least restrictive list of initial boundaries I've ever seen ;)

Funny how two people can have such opposite reactions to something, isn't it? I didn't read your boundaries as "Rules for Dating My Husband" but just as boundaries you and The Signal were setting for your own relationship. Nothing you wrote would have made me feel second class as a potential girlfriend.

Totally reneging on my "not giving advice" statement :eek:...

Your Theoretical New Girlfriend - assuming she becomes non-theoretical one day ;) - will be her own unique person. She'll bring her own needs and expectations and boundaries to the relationship.

I have agreements and boundaries with my husband, which we work on together as a couple. I also have agreements and boundaries with my boyfriend - that we work on together, as a couple. If there's a conflict, we talk about it. We try to compromise. We do our best to be fair and acknowledge everyone's needs. (The beginning of my blog is one long example of this, about meeting metamours).

Having limits and expectations and even rules isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as everyone gets a voice in their own relationships.
 
I also have agreements and boundaries with my boyfriend - that we work on together, as a couple. If there's a conflict, we talk about it. We try to compromise. We do our best to be fair and acknowledge everyone's needs.

Having limits and expectations and even rules isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as everyone gets a voice in their own relationships.

Perhaps, then, you do poly better than my XBF who swore they had years of experience, did poly better than anyone they knew, and never had any drama. ;)

However, the point remains, his rules and boundaries with his wife do impact his relationship with his theoretical new girlfriend, and those rules and boundaries have already been decided without her voice. So I guess she does have a voice, but it's only on take it or leave it.

A choice we all have, of course. A lot of people choose to leave it, which is part of why the poly dating pool ends up being quite small.
 
At the risk of seeming contrary, and after thinking about how to word things for a couple of days, I'd like to jump in on the raising of questions about your list of rules with a (long and rambling) anecdote about something that I experienced.

When I first took up with Rider, he was in another relationship. He had a lot of history with this person, having dated her and lived with her for nearly two years from 2007–2009 and then beginning to date her again right around the time that I met him and embarked on platonic friendship with him. They were dating again for almost a year when he and I started dating each other.

She is the person who introduced him to "poly" as she called it. I put that in quotes because she later stated that she never expected him to fall in love with anyone else, and because she wanted a DADT agreement that would allow her to pretend like his other partners, presumed to be casual, did not exist. She specifically told him that she wanted to do this poly thing because he wanted to see other people (remain single) but she had wanted to resume a serious relationship with him, and she offered this as a "best of both worlds" solution. She presumed (without discussion) that they would be "primary" to each other, and that their relationship would "never have to end" since they were both free to see other people to keep things fresh.

Over time, however, his being with me started to highlight the cracks in their relationship. He realized that it was much easier to get close to me because I didn't place restrictions on what information he could share. I was more tolerant and understanding if he needed to make plans with her on a particular night. I encouraged their relationship and tried to help him appease her, while she was insecure and tried to prevent he and I from becoming closer to each other.

Suddenly the relationship with all the limits started to seem...limiting. And, by involuntary comparison, the relationship with all the freedom started to seem light and healthy by comparison. And as he and I discovered more and more ways that we were compatible and right for each other, she and he discovered more and more places where they differed and issues they butted heads on.

She felt herself slipping from "primary" despite their long history because the limits she'd placed on him no longer matched his desires. She started acting out, picking fights with him whenever she discovered evidence of me in his house. She refused to attend events that he would throw if she knew that I would be there, further driving a wedge between them. Resentments began to brew on all sides, and he was behaving like a poor hinge trying to keep both her and me happy in ways that ended up screwing both her and me over, making promises he couldn't keep.

Finally, I realized that the toxicity between them was spilling over onto me, and I opted to walk away from the whole situation. Rider could come and find me when he'd settled his shit, if he ever managed to. I was going to move on with my life and find a poly situation that dragged me through less drama. It was heartbreaking but it was better than to be an arm in a vee where the whole idea of the other side of the V had been founded on the idea that I should be "lesser"—that he shouldn't have fallen in love with me, that I shouldn't have the right to ask for him to spend my entire birthday weekend with me, that he can't buy me flowers if he hadn't already bought them for her.

When I told him of my decision, he realized something.

He would actually be happier with me, the "third party," than with the pre-existing partner who had created all of these "conditions" intended to prevent intimacy between him and a third party, but which actually ended up preventing intimacy between him and her. And so they broke up (mutually), and we stayed together.

And in the time subesequent to that, it hasn't always been easy, but it's been a LOT better than when I was constrained and limited by someone who wasn't even in my relationship. And also, since then, I have been in the position she was in: a new person was added to the mix, and I had to deal with the difficulties and jealousies inherent in no longer being "the new kid on the scene": fear of seeming boring, of not being the new shiny, of an incoming partner perhaps treating me poorly in an attempt to usurp. I had one epic meltdown chronicled earlier in my blog.

But one thing that finally got me through my period of stress was to remember how when the tables were turned, it was the limits that strangled the connection between Rider and his ex, not my presence. Only they could destroy their relationship, and they did. And therefore only I could destroy my relationship with Rider, not any new "third party."

You can't write into a rule book that "[your love for each other will never end]." Love does what it wants and comes and goes as it pleases depending on how two people treat one another.

It is missing a crucial angle to say that "any activity which either of us may take part in—whether or not it involves a third party—that threatens our love should be immediately addressed" because an activity or a third party can't "threaten your love"...only you two can do that, through a lack of communication or open-heartedness or kindness or empathy for each other. Absent a manipulative sociopath who actively triangulates you against each other, all a third party can do "to" your love is passively be a point of reference for how you two treat each other. If a third party treats you better than your existing partner treats you, that may well shine a light on cracks in your current love. But it didn't create those cracks, so you can't shoot the messenger.

I hope all of this makes sense, and that it has come across in the spirit I have intended it, which is as a friendly cautionary tale against trying to legislate protection for your love.
 
I think you need to broaden your vision here and realize that the theoretical new girlfriends may end up being hurt, too. I would strongly advise you to read some groups frequented by secondary singles--unless you're committed to dating only married poly women--and see the ways in which they have been hurt by married poly men, particularly by couple privilege. And your guidelines are screaming couple privilege to me.

Married poly women aren't immune to getting their hearts broken, either. Just sayin'.
 
Wow, it seems like there was a lot of discussion yesterday. I will get to everything in due time because there are a lot of issues to discuss. Unfortunately I've got to get to work soon and I don't have much time to write. But there is something I need to talk about.

I've been writing all this time about not being ready for a third-party relationship. And, to a large extent, that is true. Am I ready to be dating someone who I see every Wednesday, or spend whole weekends with? Probably not...I am still afraid of being hurt. And The Signal is afraid of being hurt by that too. Am I ready to go poly speed dating or put up an OKCupid profile or even something in the Dating and Relationships page here? No. I'm too afraid of rejection.

But am I ready to have a relationship that is more than friendly? Am I ready to tell someone how I feel about them? That question was put to me yesterday by someone who deserved an answer. And, after much thought about that--and some discussion with The Signal--I feel that the answer to both of those questions is yes.

And now all I can do is hope that she accepts my apology for saying otherwise in the past. I don't know if my brain held my heart back, or my heart ran in front of my brain. I'm sorry that I hurt her in my desire to be careful.
 
I'm not going to be able to address everything tonight. I'll start as best I can.

(WhatHappened) The two of you have agreed on everything. Where does this leave TNGF?

The T in TNGF might not be theoretical forever. Or even for that long. Maybe. We'll see soon.

I think it's normal for humans to prepare for the last thing that happened. To a large extent the relationship boundaries that The Signal and I have formulated are in response to our last relationship with The Star. Even though it happened five years ago we are still affected by it greatly. Since that relationship is our only experience with poly it's informed what we know about what could happen in the future. It's perhaps wrong to think that these boundaries would prevent another poly relationship like that happening. But it's the language we know.

We're trying to figure out what our privacy rules are going to be like. I'm actually sitting next to The Signal as I write this--she is feeling more comfortable about me writing things and talking about poly. But she doesn't need to see what I write. Nor does she need to see what I write to other people--just the actions at this point, and perhaps a precis of what I'm doing. Now do those rights extend to a partner? I am not sure yet only in that I don't know what a future partner will want from me. I don't want to call TNGF a cipher. But until I know what that partner is like, I am not sure what she will want or be comfortable with.

I once wrote elsewhere that The Star was not a cardboard cutout to me. She had star-sized hopes and dreams, star-shaped views on the world and what she wanted from her life and mine. Just as it would have been wrong for me to reduce The Star to a generic list of rules and words before I'd even met her, I think it would be wrong to create attributes for a TNGF before I meet her. TNGF will not be The Star. (Thank God.) And until I know TNGF as well as I knew The Star, I don't know if I'll be comfortable in drawing up privacy boundaries--with The Signal, or with her. Or maybe with all three together.

(GirlFromTexlahoma)Having said that, your list of boundaries was like, the least restrictive list of initial boundaries I've ever seen.

In my line of work, when I make everybody slightly angry I am probably on the right track. I get a little nervous when one person is very happy because it probably means that someone else will be really unhappy. (Sound familiar?)

So putting together boundaries that some people think are too restrictive, and other people think are too lenient, might be at about the right place. Then again as Reverie alluded to, these boundaries are designed to work for our relationship, for the two of us at this moment. They probably wouldn't work for anther two people at another time, place, poly status, poly experience, or mental state. They're subject to change and they will change. They might change really soon.

(icesong)Married poly women aren't immune to getting their hearts broken, either. Just sayin'.

Yeah. I am cognizant that I might hurt someone else. That does worry me. Even after The Star tore my heart out and stomped on it, I was afraid that I'd hurt her. (To that end, I am working on an essay about forgiveness and my difficulties with forgiveness, which I hope to post here over the weekend.) And I also realize that I, rightly, have to learn how to be a good secondary--I don't like that word but I'm not sure what better term to use--and a good metamour. (I don't think I have the temporal, spiritual, or mental bandwidth to be a co-primary.) The Star never thought of me as a secondary--though I didn't know that at the time--and I was a lousy metamour to The Silent, not that The Silent ever really tried to be one to me. I'm not saying that I hurt their marriage, because their marriage was on life support anyway and after I left The Star soon pulled its plug. I don't think I helped much though. I want to be a positive for someone else's relationships.

But I am learning from this place.

(Reverie)You can't write into a rule book that "[your love for each other will never end]." Love does what it wants and comes and goes as it pleases depending on how two people treat one another.

No, you are right in one way In a practical sense things can change. Maybe one day something will happen to us and we'll have to separate. Maybe one day The Signal will meet a lady and she'll decide to follow her heart away from me. Maybe I'll get an offer from TNGF I can't refuse. No, we can't write a rule book that will legislate that those things will never happen.

But at the same time I will never, ever stop loving The Signal. I loved her from the minute I first saw her and I have simply never stopped, for 12 years this April. Putting that down on paper is like writing that the sky is blue or that birds sing: it's true whether it's written down or not. If it came down to a choice between me being actively poly or me still loving The Signal, well, there is no choice for me. By her grace, The Signal will likely not force me to make that choice. My love for The Signal might turn off a future TNGF. But then I just will have to find another.

And so when we agreed that "our love for each other will never end" we agreed that, even if our time together comes to an end, our love won't. I'm not proud that I still carry a torch for The Star even after she was so awful to me. But, if I still feel that way for her after six months of relative torment, how much more will I still love The Signal after 12 lovely years?

(WhatHappened)Perhaps, then, you do poly better than my XBF who swore they had years of experience, did poly better than anyone they knew, and never had any drama. ;)

Oh you! Actually I've already talked in this forum about how The Star had had a lot of experience in being poly and in fact before we met her we barely even knew what polyamory was. And despite that and that my dating transcript was full of incompletes and fails and I shouldn't have been admitted to Relationship Grad School, somehow The Star acted like she was the novice and I seemed like the one who was handling it rather well.

Looking back on it, The Signal argues that, since The Star didn't really love her and vice versa, neither she nor The Star were really being poly in the relationship (OK The Star had The Silent too, but their relationship was dying and if The Star had had her way she would have left The Silent for me in a heartbeat). But I was. Realizing that went a long way towards me finally accepting that I was poly. I did love The Signal and The Star, my heart belonged to both of them, I joyfully wore The Signal's ring and The Star's necklace.

I'll still admit I was pretty damn clueless. So there's at least one ex-boyfriend who does.

(to be continued maybe tomorrow)
 
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