Seeking Confirmation or a Wake-Up Call

LBeyond

New member
I've been looking around for a support group for a few weeks now. I tried joining a couple of smaller online ones, but found they're inactive at best. I'm seeking a proper therapist, but am trying to build some support network until I do. I'm not used to discussing things like this, and I certainly feel a bit ridiculous still, when I try talking with the few people I know about it. I have nobody in my life who can relate, though, and it's been slowly tearing me apart.

My wife and I, now married just under ten years, have two children (her son of a previous marriage and our younger daughter), and had attempted a polyfi relationship. It ended after a month and a half, we're trying to recover from it, and that's the short-hand.

Here's where I start to get self-conscious... A few years ago my wife was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. She suffers from moderate to severe audio hallucinations, but with treatment things are fairly evened out. Around that time she also realized her attraction for women, which was something she had repressed for a very long time. Very conservative family upbringing. While she was exploring this side of herself, the idea of her having a girlfriend opened up. I was supportive, having had a bisexual girlfriend with girlfriends before. My wife had some friends in another state who shared a girlfriend, so that idea had also come up. After a good couple of years considering it, we found someone she and I were both physically attracted to, and who my wife was fairly fond of. She was a former classmate of my wife's. Let's call my wife M. and our ex U.

M.'s always been reserved and self-conscious, and so she had me contact U. and get to know her a bit. I'm a social person, so getting to know U. went easily enough, and I found that I appreciated an incredible amount about her. A week or so went by, and I asked M. if I should talk with U. about it. Things she posted on Facebook seemed to indicate she was at least respectful of the topic, if not open to it... We dated for just under two months, and while my wife didn't bond with her, I did. She had an uncanny understanding of my wife's condition, had helped me through a couple of severe episodes, and gave me comfort I couldn't find anywhere else. I'm estranged from my parents and sibling, few acquaintances who have moved out of country, and no close friends to speak of.

While M. realized the relationship wasn't working out, U.'s own therapist diagnosed her with schizotypal disorder. It made sense out of her apparent familiarity with my wife's symptoms, but then M. announced it was over. I had promised the both of them to put M. and I's marriage first. We'd had ground rules, good communication. The break still went poorly. In the process, M. had me act as messenger, and it hurt like Hell. Both M. and U. went through various levels of psychosis, and I watched everything fall apart feeling helpless. I'd gone into the relationship wanting my wife to be able to explore herself in ways she never thought she could or would, and ended up realizing more about my own feelings than I expected to.

I had to force a temporary cut-off from U., needing time to establish some kind of distance. After a while, I reconnected superficially, just to get used to seeing her face over Facebook again. Slowly started asking her more often how things were going, what was happening... Now, a full year later, I've thought of her almost every day. I've made my choices, I'm struggling through my grief and trying to make amends when and where I can, but what hurts most is knowing my wife has no understanding of what I'm thinking or feeling.

She's returned to strictly monogamous belief, and I respect that. I don't aim to be a sleaze in my life. I don't aim to hurt or betray her. But, the few times I tried to talk with her about it, I see the fresh hurt in her eyes. If I seek any solace from her too often, it completely breaks her. So it all gets locked inside. I feel guilty when I keep it in, like I'm hiding something; I feel ashamed when I break down and want my wife's comfort. Even after hours-long conversations, trying to explain the way I feel, and how it doesn't diminish my love for her, I still see my wife fumble the idea around. Her disorder breeds doubt and fears, and it just pieces her apart until she exhausts herself. Meanwhile, though I've still had occasional conversations with U., I know she blames me for things. I know she's distant and that I can't confide in her. Even though my wife says it's fine for us to be friends, I realize I struggle with that. My feelings haven't gone away, and knowing how I've reacted in the past, it could take quite a few years to soften.

I don't know how to respond when my wife asks, "Why can't you just move on? We only dated her for a couple months." I don't know how to bear it when she talks about all the little things that irritated her about U., and I just feel a pit in my stomach. I've given my wife a third of my life, and I don't plan on ending it. There's so much that she does give me, and even if she can't understand what I'm going through, we've both sacrificed a lot for each other over the years. Still, with her being the only person I can talk to, I really don't have anyone to discuss this with.

I guess, I want to know if there's any advice on communicating with someone who can't comprehend polyamorous love? I've scoured the internet, tried to talk about the errors in wallet love, or the scarcity model. I've tried to explain that, just because I can fulfill certain needs through other people, it doesn't mean I need her any less. I'd also like to know any way to stop feeling this guilt and disgust in myself for letting this happen. I imagine the answer is just, time, but... I hope something else can help.
 
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Still, with her being the only person I can talk to, I really don't have anyone to discuss this with.

Personally, I don't think it is healthy to rely entirely on just one person for honest and open companionship. Folks need friends they can talk with about the stuff that matters. Not just one person. And we also need outside perspectives, apart from that of our spouses or partners. And not just online, in text. We need face-to-face friends we can trust enough to let our hair down with and be sincere and real, seen, known....

I don't like giving advice. I like only to offer perspective, if I can -- or helpful dialogue, if I can.

But in your case I'm going to offer some advice. I think you should make it a priority to form a new friendship or two. Obviously, you'd want this friendship (or two) to be with someone/s who can accept and appreciate you just as you are -- as a person who is polyamorously inclined.

I don't know where you live. In some places, finding compatible friends of this kind can be challenging. But it's important and probably doable.
 
Solid advice, mate, and I've been trying. It's the oddest thing, and my wife has noticed it too, that while I thrive in a retail setting, capable of growing wonderful associate/customer relations, my ability to nurture healthy, meaningful friendships is evidently lacking. I'm a blunt, earnest person, and very open with my thoughts. I understand that might turn a lot of people off. I also live in rural Ohio, where I've met quite a few people who honestly think LGBT=Child Molestation and if you're not a member of one particular church, you're not welcome. Makes it a bit nerve-wracking to open up this type of conversation with anyone.

My wife is still friends with our old neighbors, but I struggle to relate with them. After several conversations and incidents which made me very uncomfortable around them, I've struggled to regain that closeness. It didn't help much when they decided they were moving away, and as a coping mechanism, began to seclude themselves from friends to make the separation easier. I had also begun integrating with some board game groups and trying to visit the local card shops, but my new work schedule keeps me busied most days besides Sunday--when the shops are closed and the groups take their family time.

A coworker gave me his number yesterday, after watching me leave a couple days ago from a panic attack. I told him some things, but kept this topic out of it for now. I don't want this forum to be my only solace, but I'm hoping it can help and maybe I'll learn tools for finding support locally.

On a related note, I tried to open up about these struggles with our ex, and it went very poorly. The fact I'm still stuck in things, I realized too late that trying to apologize and let her know I wasn't trying to emotionally manipulate her wasn't so simple. That my wife was demanding certain things I didn't agree with, but had to communicate them because all of us were going to be affected by it, doesn't change the outcome. Last night's conversation made her feel like a "personal yo-yo," and that I needed to focus on present mutual interests and leave that all in the past, or stop talking with her again. I feel like I should stop trying to discuss this stuff with either her or my wife, until I've worked through it more, because I'm tired of watching them react that way. I don't want that for them, and it certainly doesn't help me.
 
Hello LBeyond,

If you project ten years into the future, what kind of a future do you see? You, still married to M, and still monogamous at her insistence? Will you have feelings of resentment? How will you feel about yourself and your situation? Will you be in a state of mourning? Will you be where you want to be? Will you be happy? These are the important questions you have to ask yourself in trying to determine whether you and M are compatible. She does not want you to be poly. Can you live with that? not just for the next few months, but for the next few decades? Where do you want to be in ten years? What kind of life do you want to be living?

I'm not sure how to convince M that your poly is a good thing. The thing is, she may be hardwired to be monogamous, and to only tolerate a spouse who is also monogamous. If that's the case, then trying to convince her to change may always cause her to feel awful. If she can be convinced, it will probably only happen after you can show her that you fully understand who she is and how she feels. So maybe the best approach is to ask her questions, and listen carefully to the answers. Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I've been asking a few of those questions a lot. Resentment is something I've struggled against for a while now, for other reasons than just this. It gets difficult to separate who she is and how she treats me from his disorder, sometimes, and the additional stress of becoming temporary caretaker... it took a long time to wrap my head around what was going on, so naturally, my wife having the ultimate say in this portion of my life has garnered some resentment. It's nothing beyond what I've already overcome, though, and I think with time and refocus, I can cope with that in a healthy way.

A lot of the other questions are a lot harder to answer. If I can find, as River suggested, one or maybe two close friends that I can invite over or head out with occasionally, someone else I can feel comfortable sharing these kinds of things without causing additional conflict between my wife and I, that might be enough. After spending the last ten years with my wife, thinking of ending that is more than hard to swallow right now. She's emotionally supported me as much as she can, and in many ways, exactly how I needed, and I know she'll continue to do so regardless of how it might affect her. There is some possibility she may one day accept or understand it, but recognizing that part of my life is on hiatus (temporarily or permanently) isn't the most troubling thing. It's the process of helping her understand who I am, and the hurt I see myself causing her through it.
 
Welcome Lbeyond,

I'm sorry you are feeling so stuck in an unpleasant situation. I hope discussing things here helps.

I think you already know one of your current problems and how you could deal with it.
You are trying to be friends with your ex while still suffering from the break up.

It doesn't sound as though you gave yourself near enough time to reflect and cope with your emotions. This is making not only your own row harder to hoe but those of your wife and U as well. It may seem impossibly painful to think of not being in contact with your ex, but a wound will not heal if you keep opening it up.

I'm not at all saying you can never be friends, just give all of you a break for at least a couple of months. Don't text, talk, message, facebook or anything with your ex. Let her know that you need time. She sounds like she would understand.

Hang in there,

Leetah
 
Welcome Lbeyond,

I'm sorry you are feeling so stuck in an unpleasant situation. I hope discussing things here helps.

I think you already know one of your current problems and how you could deal with it.
You are trying to be friends with your ex while still suffering from the break up.

It doesn't sound as though you gave yourself near enough time to reflect and cope with your emotions. This is making not only your own row harder to hoe but those of your wife and U as well. It may seem impossibly painful to think of not being in contact with U, but a wound will not heal if you keep opening it up.

I'm not at all saying you can never be friends, just give all of you a break for at least a couple of months. Don't text, talk, message, facebook or anything with your ex. Let her know that you need time. She sounds like she would understand.

Hang in there,

Leeta
 
I'm not at all saying you can never be friends, just give all of you a break for at least a couple of months. Don't text, talk, message, facebook or anything with your ex. Let her know that you need time. She sounds like she would understand.

Yeah, I'd distanced for about three months directly after the break up, started messaging her again, maybe once every other week, for about five or six months. Only started talking with her again just under a year after the break up, and realized a bit too late, that it was still too early.
 
Re:
"... and realized a bit too late, that it was still too early."

That's a sad thought. :(
 
Re (from LBeyond):
"There is some possibility she may one day accept or understand it, but recognizing that part of my life is on hiatus isn't the most troubling thing. It's the process of helping her understand who I am, and the hurt I see myself causing her through it."

Maybe what you're missing, mostly, is the opportunity to tell her who you really are, and what you really want. Even if she doesn't consent to you living the poly way, if she would just let you tell her that you are poly without her getting upset, then you could be satisfied in this relationship. Does that sound about right?
 
Yeah, that seems to be the hardest thing for me right now. We have had a couple of longer conversations the last couple of nights about it, just in general and avoiding talking about our attempt at poly. Just, the ways my viewpoint has changed, or what I need to do going forward to figure out the difference between what I want, what I need, and what is or isn't healthy for us.

The first coversation started well, but ended in a downspiral of "I don't understand how this means you can still be happy with me." We ended the conversation, she distanced a bit and continued to mentally exhaust herself until she fell asleep for a few hours. Last night's conversation went a bit better, but she's always had this habit of superimposing what she believes are my needs before even I know or understand what I really want or need. To her credit, she's been right plenty of times about me, when I was still muddling through some kind of confusion, but it still felt like it interrupted the process more than really accomplishing anything on my end.
 
Maybe you just need more of an opportunity to figure out your own needs, rather than have someone tell you what your needs are, thus depriving you of the process of figuring it out yourself. You seem to want to be able to talk to your wife in an exploratory way, whereas perhaps she wants to have everything figured out. Does that make sense?
 
I've made my choices, I'm struggling through my grief and trying to make amends when and where I can, but what hurts most is knowing my wife has no understanding of what I'm thinking or feeling.

I don't know if this helps you any. But in case it does...

I believe feelings ensue after behavior.

You broke up with U. (behavior.) That felt ugh.

Then you started reconnecting with U, Facebooking and whatnot. (behavior to fix the ugh?). That led to new upset feelings.

You decided to turn to your PATIENT spouse to seek comfort/help with the new upset. (behavior)

PATIENT Spouse doesn't get it. So now you feel even more sad/ugh stuff.

Is your expectation that spouse understands everything about you? Even as she struggles with her illness/disorder things?

You have two problems going on that I can see. The break up healing. And then dealing with the fact that you have a PATIENT spouse. That's a different kind of marriage than one where the spouses don't have disorders. You might have to check your expectations. Conditions are not an excuse. But if it was that your spouse had a broken leg, you wouldn't be asking her to run marathons with you, right? Might have to accommodate some.

If I seek any solace from her too often, it completely breaks her. So it all gets locked inside. I feel guilty when I keep it in, like I'm hiding something; I feel ashamed when I break down and want my wife's comfort. Even after hours-long conversations, trying to explain the way I feel, and how it doesn't diminish my love for her, I still see my wife fumble the idea around. Her disorder breeds doubt and fears, and it just pieces her apart until she exhausts herself.

Why are you asking a PATIENT wife to do stuff that would be hard for people without the disorder to do? If a spouse has a 10 lb bucket? They have 5 lb for their own problems and maybe 5 lb to make space to help you with yours. You give them 5 lb at a time. Not dump 100 lb on them at once. Go smaller loads that are more doable. AND keep seeking therapist to help with the big stuff.

Learn to seek appropriate support from wife. If you come to her all breaking down WHOOSHY because you are in the habit of gunnysacking? Then she might be all "OMG, not again!" scared/worried to deal with you because it uses up her energy and costs her a price in terms of patient spoons.

Then if you go wooshy and she goes "I KNEW IT!" whooshy back? Nothing gets solved. Both get worn out. You all end up in some weird circle thing where you end up triggering each other over and over making things worse rather than better.

The solution might be for you to share sooner without going all the way out to "breaking point level" so she has a chance to comfort you on smaller size stuff and see it isn't just gonna go to the DOOOOOOM! place and trigger her things.

But you cannot do that right now. You need to unload the big stuff first. I think that is better done with a counselor.

Meanwhile, though I've still had occasional conversations with U., I know she blames me for things. I know she's distant and that I can't confide in her. Even though my wife says it's fine for us to be friends, I realize I struggle with that. My feelings haven't gone away, and knowing how I've reacted in the past, it could take quite a few years to soften.

More talking to U. (behavior). Which leads to more upset feelings and struggle. (result.) Could stop talking to U. And don't look to U to be your support/comfort person either.

I don't know how to respond when my wife asks, "Why can't you just move on? We only dated her for a couple months." I don't know how to bear it when she talks about all the little things that irritated her about U., and I just feel a pit in my stomach.

Could both agree to stop talking about U to each other then.

You don't tell wife about your U sad.

And wife doesn't tell you about her U grump.

Call a truce. Accept you are both DIFFERENT PEOPLE and heal from break ups different and have different opinions on the whole U situation. And that is OK.

I've given my wife a third of my life, and I don't plan on ending it. There's so much that she does give me, and even if she can't understand what I'm going through, we've both sacrificed a lot for each other over the years. Still, with her being the only person I can talk to, I really don't have anyone to discuss this with.

That is a part you could change. Tell a counselor your things and ask THEM for support and help rather than wife. While waiting for your appointment, you could tell your story here in a blog thread and air out some.

You may have to accept that wife CANNOT be all things to you. Nor should she be. She doesn't have to be the only person you talk to. Seek talking elsewhere.

I guess, I want to know if there's any advice on communicating with someone who can't comprehend polyamorous love?

Why does wife need to comprehend it? It sounds like you guys have gone back to being in a Closed marriage. She seems to get that you are sad about the U break up. What more do you want from her? What is the need? Here is need inventory. Could circle what you need since you mention having a hard time articulating needs.

https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory

I'd also like to know any way to stop feeling this guilt and disgust in myself for letting this happen. I imagine the answer is just, time, but... I hope something else can help.

Look, it's ok to be grieving. Even if the best solution to things? Breaking up still hurts. That is one load.

Are you also calling yourself names inside your head and being your own self bully? Making it be DOUBLE load? Cuz it sounds like you might be. Like you say things in your head like "I'm so stupid for letting this happen! I am disgusting!" and whatever.

If the action behavior of trying to keep up with U leads to feeling ugh? Stop trying to hang with U. You can do that now. Start lightening the load.

If the thinking behavior of calling yourself stupid and whatnot is making you feel extra crap? Stop being your own bully. Become aware of HOW you talk to yourself in your head. You can do that now. Start lightening the load.

You can ask yourself:

"This action/thinking behavior... does it help ADD to my problems? Or help TAKE AWAY from my problems?"


DO set up to see a counselor so you can get more help. But those are some baby steps you could try while waiting for your appointment.

You basically are grieving twice.

One for the break up with U.

One for the change in the marriage -- because you are with a PATIENT spouse now, and there's going to be a caregiver component to the relationship. And patients can only do/handle so much. The old marriage where both were healthy people might be done, and you will be mourning that alone maybe. Depending on the condition of the patient spouse and their awareness.

I've watched my mom struggle through that with my Alzheimer Dad. He's clueless sometimes as to how annoying he can be and how sad mom is that her idea of how they'd be spending their "golden years" is TOTALLY different now.

So maybe you have some of that going on here too.

It's almost like you were hoping U would comfort you on the "patient wife" front.

And like you were hoping wife would comfort you on the "broke up with U" front.

And neither up them is willing/able to do those jobs. And because you don't make friends well, you are stranded on a limb for support system. And where you were lonely before -- estranged from family and few friends -- now you REALLY are feeling the alone as you see that U and Wife have reached personal limitations on their ability to help you out.

Galagirl
 
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Maybe you just need more of an opportunity to figure out your own needs, rather than have someone tell you what your needs are, thus depriving you of the process of figuring it out yourself. You seem to want to be able to talk to your wife in an exploratory way, whereas perhaps she wants to have everything figured out. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. She's always been that way, but with something like this, the biggest question about my needs is, can they be satisfied by platonic friendships? --and that is something that I can't answer directly until I've accomplished actually meeting and making a closer friendship. For her part, the conversations are an attempt to figure it out earlier than is really possible, and not entirely an activity I can avoid... When I get a chance to respond in full to GalaGirl's post, that might make more sense.

@GalaGirl: While I think there are details about my wife and I's relationship that would change your perception of and response to this thread, you've given me the first bit of real challenge against my side of this situation, and I've been wanting that. I have an event starting in about half an hour that I have to prep for, and that will last several hours, but when I sit down to respond to your statements and questions, I'll do so in as much detail as I can. :)
 
Well, you seemed to want some feedback so I took a stab in the dark based on the first few posts. Glad it helped you some.

Any luck on getting an appointment with a counselor yet? How's that been going?

Galagirl
 
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I believe feelings ensue after behavior. You broke up with U. (behavior.) That felt ugh. Then you started reconnecting with U, Facebooking and whatnot. (behavior to fix the ugh?). That led to new upset feelings. You decided to turn to your PATIENT spouse to seek comfort/help with the new upset. (behavior) PATIENT Spouse doesn't get it. So now you feel even more sad/ugh stuff.

Is your expectation that spouse understands everything about you? Even as she struggles with her illness/disorder things?

We broke up with U., and that felt ugh, but I tried reconnecting with U. because spouse and I thought it would be an option for friendship, because of similar interests. I tried to keep the past separate, but failed, causing new ugh. Have not turned to spouse to seek comfort about U., but about loneliness, and not having friends (a long-term ugh from before we dated U). Spouse struggles to move past the ugh I feel for U., and asks questions about it. Questions cause more ugh, and I try to help her understand me so that she doesn't feel her own ugh. Her NOT understanding me makes me feel like I'm hurting her more, and so I feel more ugh. Spouse distancing from me because of my remaining feelings for U. also causes both of us ugh, and means she spends more time when I'm at work dwelling on it.

But if it was that your spouse had a broken leg, you wouldn't be asking her to run marathons with you, right? Might have to accommodate some.

Her hallucinations are audio, and bring her paranoia. Her therapist requested she only talk about U. and my ugh over her for only so many minutes a day. She refused, because not talking about it longer with me makes her distance from me. If she tries to talk about it and I refuse, or try to convince her not to talk about U. so much, her paranoia makes her feel like I am lying or hiding things. This is also worse because the more stress spouse has, the less her memory works. Big chunks are lost. She remembers less than half of the time we spent with U., and if a conversation ends in anxiety and sleep, I know that she will forget half or more of it. So, we repeat conversations, repeating the ugh, until she will remember all of it and things can move forward.

But you cannot do that right now. You need to unload the big stuff first. I think that is better done with a counselor . . . That is a part you could change. Tell a counselor your things and ask THEM for support and help rather than wife. While waiting for your appointment, you could tell your story here in a blog thread and air out some.

Agreed. I am actively calling and leaving messages for counselors, but the ones in my network (and can afford) have not answered their phones or called back in three days now. Am looking into the next step in contacting their offices to make sure someone, anyone, gets back with me. I'm expanding my support network with this site, Depression & Bipolar Support Alliance (since they also have experience with caregivers), and open to additional venues. A co-worker who saw me during a panic attack gave me his number yesterday, and told me I can call if I need to, so I'm looking into forming a friendship with him, though I don't believe poly-related conversations are possible there.

You may have to accept that wife CANNOT be all things to you.

I accepted that about seven years ago. Before we knew she had schizoaffective disorder, we had a small separation that lasted about six days. It was when she first sought psychological treatment, and was originally diagnosed with severe depression and bipolar disorder. Knowing that, and with her taking the first steps towards treatment, we resumed our relationship. Since then, I've tried to shoulder as much of her and I's stress as I can, but without making her feel useless or helpless. It's not just about me not handling my stress in healthy ways, but also about the way she feels if I don't share enough of my stress with her. It makes her feel less useful to me, and therefore less important to the relationship. That feeling makes her feel less important alive, and begins suicidal thoughts.

Why does wife need to comprehend it? It sounds like you guys have gone back to being in a Closed marriage. She seems to get that you are sad about the U break up. What more do you want from her? What is the need?

I've seen the need inventory, and it's a good thing to have available, but I don't need wife to comprehend it. She needs to comprehend it to stop hurting; her hurting makes me hurt, because at some level I am part of the cause. Wife desperately clings to the idea of soul mates, but feels that since I have emotions for U., wife and I cannot be soul mates. I try to explain that "soul mates" as "one person in the world for you," is painful and wrong. I try to explain that I believe "soul mates" is something you become together, over time and lots of love and work. Wife uses the idea of soul mates as her foundation, her handle for understanding our relationship, and begs me "Don't take that away from me, please." I struggle, because it's a negative view that is hurting her, but I don't press. I comment in small ways when she brings it up, and hope something changes her mind over time.

Are you also calling yourself names inside your head and being your own self bully? Making it be DOUBLE load? Cuz it sounds like you might be. Like you say things in your head like "I'm so stupid for letting this happen! I am disgusting!" and whatever . . . you are with a PATIENT spouse now, and there's going to be a caregiver component to the relationship. And patients can only do/handle so much. The old marriage where both were healthy people might be done, and you will be mourning that alone maybe. Depending on the condition of the patient spouse and their awareness.

Firstly, my wife was never healthy. I mentioned that already, but it's worth restating here; I fell in love with her when she was untreated, helped her seek treatment, and have been in various stages of "caregiver" our whole near-decade. I am not mourning a loss of something previous, but do struggle with resentment. It's not a daily struggle, but a persistent one. When I don't have other major stresses, it is easier to fight these feelings of resentment. But, yes, I am also fighting self-bullying. When I don't talk to my wife about U. or other things that stress me, the only reason she doesn't talk to me about them is if I hide them--internalize them. I know she doesn't like it when I hide those things, even though sometimes she needs me to. So if I do hide them, I feel guilty, like I'm lying to her. Then, when something slips and she notices, or something is bothering me so bad I have to talk about it to someone, and I choose to talk with her about it, I feel ashamed for not being able to handle it myself, or hide it well enough. Or I feel ashamed and dirty if it's about U., and my wife notices and wants me to talk about it. I feel like I should already have pushed those feelings away, and I am dishonoring my wife.



I've watched my mom struggle through that with my Alzheimer Dad. He's clueless sometimes as to how annoying he can be and how sad mom is that her idea of how they'd be spending their "golden years" is TOTALLY different now.

My grandfather suffered dementia, and with my wife's memory problems, I am starting to understand that exact position. We're not sure if the memory problems will persist or worsen, even with treatment, but there is a good chance they will. It's terrifying, and I'm sorry your family has that challenge too.

It's almost like you were hoping U would comfort you on the "patient wife" front. And like you were hoping wife would comfort you on the "broke up with U" front.

Again, I might have covered this earlier, but in a short, simple way here: I was hoping U. would fulfill a platonic friendship need, and that wife would understand enough of my thoughts and feelings so she can stop self-destructing.

Going through and thinking about each of these points helped focus my thoughts about them. Starting a conversation about these sorts of things is hard for me... Hard to know exactly where to start. :rolleyes:
 
LBeyond said:
Questions cause more ugh, and I try to help her understand me so that she doesn't feel her own ugh.

Can you say “Questions cause more ugh for me. Let’s not go there right now.” And just decline to participate in conversation that leads to you having more ugh?

Whether or not spouse feels ugh – can you let HER attend to that? Rather you you managing her emotions for her and trying to get her not to feel her own ugh?

LBeyond said:
Her NOT understanding me makes me feel like I'm hurting her more, and so I feel more ugh. Spouse distancing from me because of my remaining feelings for U. also causes both of us ugh, and means she spends more time when I'm at work dwelling on it.

This is what I meant about circle things.

At this time, until you get a counselor, how about trying "everyone carries their own ugh?" You carry your baggage only, she carries hers only? Don’t try to help each other just yet.

LBeyond said:
Her therapist requested she only talk about U. and my ugh over her for only so many minutes a day.

So why are neither of you complying? :confused:

LBeyond said:
She refused, because not talking about it longer with me makes her distance from me.

Could talk about other things. Not U. So there is no need to distance. OR... be ok with her distancing for now. Because maybe it is a stage to get through in her therapy process and you guys never get THROUGH the stage because you both keep disobeying her doctor?

Something to think about maybe.

LBeyond said:
If she tries to talk about it and I refuse, or try to convince her not to talk about U. so much, her paranoia makes her feel like I am lying or hiding things.

And that is HER baggage to sort out with her therapist. You could stop managing or pre-managing her feelings for her and exercise firmer personal boundaries.

LBeyond said:
This is also worse because the more stress spouse has, the less her memory works. Big chunks are lost. She remembers less than half of the time we spent with U., and if a conversation ends in anxiety and sleep, I know that she will forget half or more of it. So, we repeat conversations, repeating the ugh, until she will remember all of it and things can move forward.

That sounds draining for both of you. Talk to your therapist/her therapist about a better way to move it forward.

Like maybe not talk out loud. Talk over email. Then at least you don’t have to repeat it on your end. If she forgets she can fix it herself by reading the email again. Whether or not she actually does -- that's on her.

LBeyond said:
I am actively calling and leaving messages for counselors...

That’s good. Keep trying to help yourself in all those areas. Are you doing anything about caregiver support? I am not seeing that area. There's online places for caregivers.

When I've needed extra support I would ask my friends to be in charge of one topic only. That way I was getting help, but I wasn't overloading one person with a lot. I reached out to a church person I was not esp tight with and offered a trade because I knew they were getting a divorce. I'd be their divorce person if they'd take on being my caregiver woes. We did that for a few months over email and we both got ourselves/each other through a rough patch. We both felt like it was a fair deal and we went back to being casual friends when the patch was over.

So I think it is fine that the coworker is your "panic attack" support. They don't also have to be "poly support." You can get that here for now.

LBeyond said:
Since then, I've tried to shoulder as much of her and I's stress as I can, but without making her feel useless or helpless. It's not just about me not handling my stress in healthy ways, but also about the way she feels if I don't share enough of my stress with her. It makes her feel less useful to me, and therefore less important to the relationship. That feeling makes her feel less important alive, and begins suicidal thoughts.

This is delicate. I'm not trying to be mean in saying this ok? :eek:

In the end? You cannot be her life raft or keeper. Watching her every minute to see that she doesn’t go off on suicidal thoughts/trying suicide.

It is ok to say NO to a patient person. If you only want to share job stress, or house stress or similar but NOT the U stress? That’s is ok to do.

You can tell her that you are seeing a counselor about it and how counseling appoints go in a light way. The appointment went well, the appointment was stressful, etc. But stop sharing deep details about your processing U grief. It seems to go to "circle conversations" and that doesn’t help either of you. (I use that website to help with some of my dad stuff. Maybe it helps you some.)

And if you having a reasonable need for some personal privacy and less upheaval hoo-ha with wife leads to her doing suicide stuff? That is NOT about you. That is her illness.

LBeyond said:
She needs to comprehend it to stop hurting; her hurting makes me hurt, because at some level I am part of the cause.

To me that sounds like YOU want her to comprehend it so she stops hurting. Then YOU can stop hurting. And YOU need this because YOU think you are part of the cause.

You and wife could work on untangling your emotions from each other. You guys sound enmeshed like you don’t have solid personal boundaries. I might be wrong on that impression, but you could bring it up with a counselor.

Wife desperately clings to the idea of soul mates, but feels that since I have emotions for U., wife and I cannot be soul mates. I try to explain that "soul mates" as "one person in the world for you," is painful and wrong. I try to explain that I believe "soul mates" is something you become together, over time and lots of love and work. Wife uses the idea of soul mates as her foundation, her handle for understanding our relationship, and begs me "Don't take that away from me, please."

If you want her to stop hurting because her hurting makes you hurt? Let her have this and let it GO in the interest of both hurting less rather than keep picking at this sore spot. YES. You guys are soul mates. YAY!

AGREE that you are soul mates so the patient can chill. And then you can enjoy some peace too. Think your OWN view inside your head. And once she's chill ask for what you need.

" something you become together, over time and lots of love and work."

Well, what needs work? Get on with it. Ask her "Hon, could you please do X? That would help me. I love it when my soul mate is there for me!"

My dad cannot think well with his conditions. He's happier if someone just TELLS him what to do. But he's vain, so it has to come like "You are so good at doing X... could you help me with that?" My mom wants to explain all the time that X needs doing because this and then that and then this other thing. He gets upset and lost with too much data. I asked mom why she has to explain so much. Does she want to talk or does she want the thing done? She said she wants the thing done. So I asked her why she is getting in her own way talking so much to a patient person who cannot take too much on board in one go?

I struggle, because it's a negative view that is hurting her, but I don't press. I comment in small ways when she brings it up, and hope something changes her mind over time.

You don’t press but you keep commenting hoping she changes her mind? That trickle torture. That is not letting it GO.

Let it go. She will change her mind on her own if she’s going to change her mind. If she isn't gonna change? You save your breath and energy.

I am not mourning a loss of something previous, but do struggle with resentment. It's not a daily struggle, but a persistent one.*

That is a common caregiver experience. You may need to seek caregiver support, esp if this relationship has never been a healthy one.

Stop commenting on the soul mate thing -- that is a slow energy drain.

Stop disobeying the doctor and still talking about U with wife so much. That is an energy drain AND not complying with her treatment plan.

Stop getting into circle conversations. That is draining.

You might not get it all solved on your own, but stopping all these slow drain things might help you feel a bit better and less resentful. You sound bone dry and TIRED. I don't know what you need to refill yourself, but you could stop some of these slow drain things from drying you out even more.

But, yes, I am also fighting self-bullying.

Something to note perhaps. Like don’t try to fix anything just write down all the things you deal with in a list and let the counselor help you.

You don’t have one issue that needs one plan to solve. You need many plans, in some kind of order. A STRATEGY.

I know she doesn't like it when I hide those things, even though sometimes she needs me to. So if I do hide them, I feel guilty, like I'm lying to her.*

And you can be ok even if she doesn't like stuff. My dad doesn't like a LOT of stuff. So what?

My mom used to struggle with that too. She wanted the patient to be comfortable. She had to learn that there is no such thing as "no cow" here. There's Dad having HUGE cows left and right all the time. Or dad having smaller cows, not as bad, and further spread out.

Mom had to let go of the idea of "Dad doens't have a cow." She kept looking for the land of "zero cows" and all it did was upset my father further, upset herself, upset me, etc. Not realistic expectations of a patient spouse. When she adjusted to thinking "Alright. Let's just go for LESS big cows. Further spread apart" things actually got a lot better.

(cont)
 
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Not telling a spouse something is not lying. If I tell my spouse I’m stressed but not ready to talk about it or that I’m stressed but want to try solving it myself first? That’s not lying. I’m checking in and keeping him informed of where I am at. Just because I don’t dump EVERYTHING out on the table doesn't mean I'm lying to my husband.

My Dad wants everything on the table. My mom had to learn to develop personal boundaries and that (what Dad wants) does not superseded (what Mom wants or needs.)

Again…. I think you have to untangle some of your emotions from your wife. Just because she doesn’t like it or feels upset by it? So what? You have to stop putting her first. You take care of you first, then you can gift her your help with her rational and reasonable requests.

I wonder if some of your resentment comes from not having any privacy or space of your own. Not even your own space inside your own head because you seem to think you have to be telling EVERYTHING.

And also because you self-neglect. For several reasons... but maybe one of them is that you haven't learned healthy caregiving boundaries? You keep serving the patient first at the expense of your health.

That's ok if it's a short run illness. Like I lose sleep tending to a sick child for a week. It's only a week, it's over, then things are normal.

But going at long term caregiving like that? That's coming out of your health and well-being. That's NOT the way. That leads to caregiver burn out.

Then, when something slips and she notices, or something is bothering me so bad I have to talk about it to someone, and I choose to talk with her about it, I feel ashamed for not being able to handle it myself, or hide it well enough. Or I feel ashamed and dirty if it's about U., and my wife notices and wants me to talk about it. I feel like I should already have pushed those feelings away, and I am dishonoring my wife.

That sounds like YOUR baggage, coupled with yourself self bullying coupled with you not having a wider support network yet. You ARE working on growing it though.

I am not a plumber. If a pipe breaks I’m calling one. I’m not ashamed I cannot handle it myself. Because I AM handling it myself. I called in a professional!

The shame stuff and self bully stuff – I think you have to call in a professional counselor. And that IS you handling that yourself. That is recognizing you are not trained to fix that “broken pipe” and you need professional assistance.

My grandfather suffered dementia, and with my wife's memory problems, I am starting to understand that exact position. We're not sure if the memory problems will persist or worsen, even with treatment, but there is a good chance they will. It's terrifying, and I'm sorry your family has that challenge to

As you make your list of things to talk to your counselor about, include that. Planning for the future with this illness. Your care, her care, and the care of the marriage.

I was hoping U. would fulfill a platonic friendship need

Not the best person to pick – a recent ex.

and that wife would understand enough of my thoughts and feelings so she can stop self-destructing.

Also not best person for to be your (thoughts and feelings) person because she is a patient wife AND some of the thoughts and feelings are about her behavior and her care.

Your wife will self destruct or not self destruct based on her management of her condition. Right now? She doesn’t obey her medical team to stop talking so much about U. And you enable that. You don’t obey her team either.

You can share SOME with your patient wife, but you have to find the right “volume knob” and the "right topics." She doesn't sound as far gone as my dad where she's a total dependent. Let her have the dignity of being responsible for her OWN health care stuff. And if she's giving it a lick and a promise and not really obeying her management plan (behavior) and she winds up upset and ugh? (result?) Let that be her problem.

Do not contribute to her not following her treatment plan. You can obey her doc and not talk so much about it. Then YOU can relax that YOUR behavior is not the cause of her ugh.

Accept some conversation topics are just too triggering for both right now, so take it off the table until you see a counselor. And some things may ALWAYS be on the table.

One of my father’s conditions is anosognosia – where he cannot see that he is sick or see his limitations. And he has so many other conditions. I don’t know how many conditions your wife has, but if that’s one of them? You def have to update your beliefs on what you can/cannot do with wife and what you can/cannot talk about. Even if she doesn't have anosognosia... you may have to update your beliefs.

Some things might be zero talk forever. Some might be no for now, but yes after you have a counselor. Some things might be “light convo” only. Some things might be full talk.

That is not lying to your wife. That is accepting her conditions and her abilities and not overloading her OR you with expectations that don’t match this situation.

It is easier to “see” what to do and what not to do when it is a wife with a broken leg. You do not ask her to join you in running for recreation. You might ask her to join you in a board game for recreation instead.

With other conditions, it is harder to see.

Going through and thinking about each of these points helped focus my thoughts about them. Starting a conversation about these sorts of things is hard for me... Hard to know exactly where to start.*

That is a something to notice and a skill to develop then. Could put it on your list for the counselor. Don’t try to put it in order. Just capture the things you want to work on however it is they pop up.

HTH!
Galagirl
 
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This all gave me a lot to think about, and yeah, the temptation or urge to take it harshly is there. I gave it a little while to fully process...

In short, entwined feelings are a known struggle of mine. I have accomplished setting aside needed me time through the week after recognizing it, and though it's still difficult sometimes, at least I'm aware of it as a concern. I think you're right that I was getting everything a bit more jumbled than I should have been again. Spent some time focusing on that and sorting things back out.

Altering my beliefs on what I can or can't share with her will be more of a challenge, but not so much on my end independently of my wife... I understand that becoming an enabler is a problem, but after having quite a few recovering addicts in my life, I know that sometimes a change that is too sudden can be dangerous. This will have to be a long-term mutual process, because I've seen her nearly dead before. I want to navigate this rework slowly and carefully.

The most difficult part of your last posts of advice, is the nature of our current (lack of) symptom managment. She's still getting back to her full dose of medication, but even when she was on the proper amount, our relationship has been (at least) borderline mutually abusive. There are times, late at night when it's the worst and I have no physical energy left, where refusing to continue a conversation, saying I can't handle any more of it, or that it's a bad idea because tensions are high--it ends with her pinning me on the bed and shaking me until I continue, or find the oomf to get her off of me and either restrain her or somehow calm her down. Usually, that means either wrapping my arms around her until the break passes, or I risk continuing the conversation. Neither is even 80% effective, but... it's a problem we haven't yet fixed.

There are many times when both of us fall below that point of decency, start pushing buttons out of anger or desperation. We've talked about how to recognize that abusive element, and decided this: we both want the relationship to continue, we both only see these moments during a psychotic break AND while I am over-strained, and so it is a problem worth further identifying and working towards correcting. Hopefully her counselor and my eventual one/ones will help sort that out.
 
I am not trying to be harsh to you. It's just an incredibly challenging situation.

I do hope with both counselors helping that you can get back to a healthier space/dynamic as much as possible with all the conditions and things. Get some of the conditions under better management so she isn't pinning you down and shaking you. You might need more caregiver training on the appropriate responses to a pyschotic break. I'm not sure what is needed -- you REALLY have to talk to your professionals.

I know that one could tell a spouse more things in a different, healthier dynamic.

But in THIS dynamic at THIS time? With a patient spouse and the abuse... it's ok NOT to be sharing EVERYTHING. It's ok to put YOUR self care first sometimes. You don't have to beat yourself up about that.

Galagirl
 
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