LizziE Learning as She Goes

LizziE

New member
While I do have a blog, I actually try not to post about every little thing on it. I'm hoping that would be OK here? There are things that I might want to write down to get out of my system and maybe look back at later, to see if there are any patterns or changes.

Where I am now I think I covered quite a bit in my introduction:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74088

I'm currently dealing with feeling stressed because Lora (my metamour) and Jon (our hinge partner) are going to start couples therapy in a few weeks, but Lora isn't going to get solo therapy yet because she thinks she doesn't need it. Or she's scared. Or she can't afford it. I haven't talked to her about this yet, Jon tendered these...reasons to me.

We could swing therapy financially. The "too scared" and the "doesn't need it" thoughts...they seem to contradict each other, no?

More importantly, given that she IS emotionally abusive towards Jon and continues to use abusive words and phrases to him when fighting, she most certainly DOES need therapy. And when I found out that she took my non-negotiable condition of "you need therapy" to mean that therapy for her & Jon meets that condition, I was nonplussed, to say the least. She needs therapy to unlearn her abusive fight tactics. She needs therapy to work on her self-worth issues. She needs therapy to improve her social anxiety and process through her PTSD. She needs therapy for a million reasons.

Anyways, the thing I'm wrestling with right now is that I don't really want to be her friend anymore. I want her in my life as little as possible, even if we are continuing to live together. I just...I have spent so much time and emotional energy on her, and I continue to have health problems that I need to work on AND I don't want to have a life that's all about her fears and her needs and how all she needs is time and patience when she won't even go to solo therapy to work on herself!

Is it OK to vent a little like this?

One of the things I'm debating is rekindling some old romances in my life. One of my past partners, Issi, who is also a wonderful friend, well, I've been really longing for us to spend time together, both romantically and hanging out watches movies and just being friends. I worry that that violates the old "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule. The only way my relationship with Jon is broken is over our conflicting feeling about Lora - generally, I love and adore Jon and I am so glad to have him in my life. Lora, I don't know what to do about, other than build a life without her and ease back from helping her with anything that I wouldn't help an acquaintance with.

Sometimes I wonder about dating on OKC too, but I worry that that would also violate the "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule. I guess I'll keep thinking and learning and go from there.
 
I worry that that violates the old "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule.

Can't fix a relationship with more people, but you can distract yourself from getting too swamped by difficult things that you can't do much about.

Tough place you're in right now Lizzie. I hope things ease up soon.
 
The biggest thing I ask myself is "Would I be interested in a new relationship if it wasn't for what was going on with Lora and Jon?"

I feel fairly certain that my answer would be yes. Honestly, when we all moved in together, I envisioned that there would be 3-6 months of us getting used to living together and working out the major issues and then settling into a routine, then probably another 3-6 months of tweaking that routine and then *really* getting settled in. During that time, I also envisioned that I'd continue dating the people who I had been dating and/or possibly meet some new people (my current other poly relationships are closer to a FWB situation, though there is a lot of love between us; it's just that we both know the level of relationship we're going to have with each other, and we were all happy with it being a "see each other 1-3 times a month on a date, and probably socially another 1-3 times a month" thing).

What tripped me up was the combination of my continuing health issues as well as how bad things are with Lora. My first response to both of those was "let's get these squared away before looking outside".

On the physical health issues front, I am trying yet another type of physical therapy and...it is what it is. I'm becoming reconciled to the idea that I may never get better, but that I should hopefully become a bit more functional and be able to live a fulfilling live. And who knows? Maybe after years of being careful and partially disabled, it'll suddenly get better. I just can't keep waiting for it to happen.

On the Lora front - I tried. I really did. Her not wanting solo therapy for me was just a giant middle finger. Not that I think she's saying no to piss me off (or that she even really considered me at all in the decision), but why am I going to continue to put energy into helping her, and supporting her, and trying to understand her, and being there for her when she won't put it in herself? I'm just...done. Emotionally, I'm done with her for the moment.

With Jon, we're in a great place in every way except for our differences of opinion about Lora. I am currently resigned to the fact that he wants to continue to date her and give couples therapy a try. I love him for his determination and will to not give up, even as I worry that he's currently doing that...what do you call it? the thing where you keep throwing good energy after bad, because you've been invested for so long that you can't stand the idea of bailing? That. I worry that he's doing that. But it's not my choice to make, it's his.

So...there I am.
 
Glad to see you created a blog - I'll definitely be reading along! :eek:

This is absolutely a place for you to vent. From what I've read, blogs are a safe space to say whatever you'd like to say. You can ask for feedback/advice explicitly, but oftentimes, you'll get more of that from posting in the Poly Relationship Corner. And if there are posts from others on here that you do not want as part of the blog, I believe you can contact a moderator to have them removed. It tends not to be a place where you're heavily critiqued or criticized.

Sorry to hear that Lora hasn't changed her perspective on individual therapy, and I hope that her couples' therapist might be able to highlight the need for this over time. Guess it comes down to how long you feel willing and able to wait. :(
 
This is pretty much cut & pasted from my blog. This happened last night.

Jon's work was crazy, so he got home much later than anticipated (nearly midnight). I was showering, so he came in and showered with me and let me know that his presentation is so behind that he had to be back at nine in the morning, so no good night sleep for him! Including commutes to and from work, and getting ready in the morning, he's looking at six hours of sleep. After a quick shower, he got out to grab a bite to eat. I was feeling like a leisurely shower, so I took my time, did some leg shaving, put some deep conditioner on my hair.

When I got out about 15 minutes later and was drying my hair, Jon came back to brush his teeth and pee. We talked while he was doing it - I told him a quick, funny story about work today. He's sleeping with Lora tonight, and when he went into the bedroom with her, I heard her say "That is totally not fair and OK". And he ask "What?" She said "You were just in with Liz talking and laughing. Why aren't you talking to me?" He said "I was talking to you the entire time I was eating, and Liz was still in the bathroom when I used it, so I talked to her while I was in there. Now I'm in the bedroom with you." To which she said "yeah, but you're just gonna go to sleep. You should be talking me. You never talk to me like that."

Two things of note: One was that Lora was talking in a sort of jokey voice. You know; the one people use when they're kinda joking, but not really, and if someone takes strong exception to what they say, they can say "Jeez, clearly I was joking - don't be so sensitive!" That one. Also Jon kept pushing back at Lora and repeated "We were talking while I was in the bathroom. We can talk if we're both in the bathroom at the same time."

And so they argued about it for a few minutes (with Lora saying "I'm just saying. I notice things like that") before Lora changed the subject to something cute one of the cats did earlier today. Knowing full well that Jon has to be up in six hours and counting.

It's the little shit like that that both makes me not want to live with her and also causes me to say to myself "Are you fucking for real? You seriously have to bitch about a five-fucking-minute long conversation in the bathroom? Really?"
 
So I wrote Jon an email about it this morning, and how it was really upsetting to me when he just downplayed things like that as if they're not a big deal, because they are part of a larger picture. I let him know that I'm going to have *that* little exchange on my mind any time he and I have a five minute talk, and that that's incredibly stressful.

I also let him know that I'm seriously considering writing an email to Lora myself about it, and how that feels, especially give the scarcity of time that Jon and I have had the past few weeks, and will continue to have for at least the next week. But if I do that...what happens? Will Lora ask Jon for his opinion? If he agrees with me, will she see that as a "sign" that he's going to replace her with me (she's said that to him many, many times).

If he told me that I was overreacting, I would be pissed. I am so tired of stupid shit like this cropping up over ANY kind of situation. I don't understand how he can't see how controlling it is. I also told him that I thought that HE needed to write Lora an email about how not OK things like that were, and how she really needed to work on her self-esteem and entitled mindset. But, I asked him, if he broaches this with her as a bigger problem, what will happen? Will she flip out? Is he afraid of that? I told him that *I'm* afraid of that, because of the way that she catastrophizes situation and turns most criticism into "You hate me and you're just saying that to hurt me".

I just...I do not understand how she can deny the need for her to get therapy. I also don't see what he sees in her, not one little bit.

I need to figure out a way to live my life where I'm no longer in fear of her screaming and crying and threatening and control. How do I do that? Even if we stop living together, and I tell him that I don't want to see her any more, I know that she'll still be there, trying to control, always ready to compare the two of us, always eager to tell him that she KNOWS that he loves me more, that she KNOWS that he's going to break up with her any day, that's he's just another asshole who will abandon her when she needs someone the most. It is only after the screaming, crying, threatening, attempts at controlling that she'll admit that maybe SHE has the problem, maybe SHE flew off the handle.

But, that said, she doesn't need therapy for it. Nope. It's totally fine as it is.
 
I feel really vulnerable posting this, but how does this look as an email to send to Lora?


I overheard that you were upset about Jon and I talking in the bathroom while he was brushing his teeth.

It is hurtful and upsetting to me to hear you say what you said to him last night and to know that you will challenge a five minute bathroom conversation that we have as something that is unfair to you.

You may not be aware of this, but for the past few weeks, Jon has had off both of the days that you have off. He's had off one of the days when I'm off. This week, he has off one of the days that you have off. He doesn't have off any of the days that I have off. I am aware of that, and it is really hard for me. I feel jealous. I feel sad. But I do not take my jealousy about that out on you, or on him. It's really important to me that you're able to do the same.

I know that Jon's work schedule will change and there will be weeks when I see him more. There will be weeks when you see him more. That's the way it's going to be, as long as he does the kind of work that he does.

No matter how his work schedule is, I have not - and will not - notice the two of you talking for a few minutes and then discuss it as something that is unfair to me. Can you do the same?
 
I feel really vulnerable posting this, but how does this look as an email to send to Lora?

I think it's a very considerate, well thought out, polite letter. I wouldn't find it offensive if I were the recipient. And, though it might hurt my feelings, I am mature enough to look at my behavior objectively. Based on what you've said, I'm not sure your metamour is capable of that? In which case, an email may just contribute to the animosity between you?

The other possible issue I see is that if you didn't live together, and/or if you hadn't overheard a private conversation, you wouldn't be privy to it; therefore, it wouldn't be any of your business, kwim? Flip it around, if she'd overheard what you thought was a private conversation between you & Jon about his interactions with her, how would you feel if she sent you an email about it?

I've read much of what you've written. You have my sympathies. Your metamour does not sound like a fun person to live with. She sounds immature and insecure. I hope that you & Jon can come up with a better, workable situation because your house does not sound like a fun place to live :(
 
About me overhearing - the conversation happened with the bedroom door open and was conducted in a normal level of volume. The bedroom is right next to the bathroom. She knew that I was in the bathroom. So if she said, for instance, "I'd appreciate it if you didn't listen in on my conversations" then I'd say "Ok, then you need to close the bedroom door and talk quietly because my ears hear the soundwaves that are presented to them, and I'm not willing to walk around humming or with earbuds in at all times in my own home".

I do totally get (and agree) that she has a right to have private conversations with Jon. We all have a right to have a private conversation with someone in our own home. But when we do, I feel like it's a good idea to close the door of the room you're in, and talk quietly. Or put on music. The thinness of our walls is a running joke between the three of us. For me to overhear what they say - if whoever wants privacy doesn't take active steps to secure it, the only way to get it would be to get whomever wasn't supposed to overhear to listen to music or something.

It's a subject that I haven't seen mentioned much in any poly writing, but when you *do* live all together (and the walls are thin) what do you do when you overhear things?

I generally stay out of it as long as it has nothing to do with me and isn't blatant verbal abuse. I don't necessarily feel like overhearing something gives me the right to comment on it.

But when it's a comment/complaint about me, and about Jon and I spending five minutes together talking in the bathroom...I don't know what to do. It's stupid that it bothers me so much - but then I think it's stupid that it was even broached as a subject at all.

The main thing that I'm looking for is that living with her has sensitized me to such a point that I don't feel like I can objectively look at something that I've written to her to express a complaint and judge if the "average" person would find it objectionable.

If I send it, I'm going in with the opinion that she will get really upset and it will turn into a huge thing. I need the extra mental/emotional support so that if she says "This is a ridiculous request and you are terrible for bringing it up", I can say with more confidence "No, it's not, and no I'm not".

Not that being ruled by group consensus on a message like this is necessarily a good idea. I'm just having a hard time figuring out if anything is a good idea right now.
 
As for how I'd feel, I'd remind myself to close the door of the room we're in and put on music. :)

I also apologize, if it was a conversation about someone else and they overheard it. And if it was a conversation about somebody else, I would additionally say "Well, now that how I feel is in the open, let's talk about this.". I've lived for roommates most of my adult life, and I have had a time or two when I was venting about someone I was living with in a common room and either didn't realize they were home or didn't realize they came home while I was talking. It was really embarrassing, but also helpful (in a way), because I didn't have to gather my courage to talk to them - I just had to gather it to apologize sincerely and then try to have a production conversation.
 
Since you're asking for feedback on the letter, I will say I get why you're feeling infuriated. I also see how it's not like this is the first time she's done something like this - it's part of the bigger picture. I also don't see any insight on her end that these kinds of behaviors are unhealthy. :(

That said, I personally don't think sending her that email is going to work out well. Jon is the hinge. This is his job. She can say all the snippy things she wants, but it's up to him to manage his time between two partners. She's unhappy about it? Then it's up to Jon to figure out how to attend to her needs for time or decide he doesn't want to be in the relationship. Yes, it is unpleasant for you to hear, but I think this goes back to Jon deciding to stay in an unhealthy relationship with Lora AND you being witness to all their unhealthy dynamics. You can't make her see the need for individual therapy if she's not willing to be open to that. You can't make them improve their relationship, if Lora doesn't see the problem and Jon is willing to tolerate it (though at least going to couples therapy is a positive step). Given all you've shared about Lora, I don't see how she could possibly respond positively to the email - as you said, she was even using her "jokey" voice as a potential way to defend against anyone calling her out. The email, to me, reads like you're trying to get her to see another perspective, be reasonable, and treat Jon better. I suspect she won't be open to this.

Again, I think this is about you and what "minimum standards" you're willing to put up with living with them. You sound completely reasonable in your frustrations towards Lora, so it's not that. Lora does not sound like she is able to manage her own issues, her jealousy (maybe it's really hard for her to have her metamour, who doesn't like her, live in the same household? On top of her own stuff?), and her and Jon's unhealthy relationship dynamics. So I say, back to you and what you are willing to deal with. IMHO, it does not sound healthy for you to be living there. If you considered moving out, even if it's temporary, I think you'd get a better sense of how unhealthy it is and whether or not polyshipping with Lora as your metamour is something you're willing to do at all...
 
That all makes a lot of sense. I feel pretty certain that continuing to live with Lora is a very bad idea - at least in the short term.

Long term, like I told Jon: They're supposed to go to couples therapy (and there is still hope, I guess, that Lora will do solo therapy). I do overhear things when they fight. If we weren't living together, it would go back to knowing when they're fighting, seeing that he's stressed out by fighting, but not knowing if it's healthy or unhealthy fighting.

If it's healthy fighting, I don't love it, but I can definitely deal with it. I can shrug it off.

If it's the controlling, abusive fighting, (or absurd nitpicking at me/comparing me & Jon's relationship to her and Jon's relationship) that's the thing that I (and Jon, and theoretically Lora) know needs to change.

If we stopped living together in the middle of this, I'm not sure if I'd want to try again, even if Lora did get therapy and they both swore that she was better. Given the total lack of warning of how bad she was going in this time, I would have some concerns about trust with that.

The idea of living without seeing Jon daily is incredibly painful to me (and to him). Right now, the idea of choosing between the two - it still feels like it's less painful to live with him full-time and deal with this. But it's tipping closer to it being less painful to not live with him full-time all the time and not be around thing.

About the email - as far as I know (and as far as Jon knows), Lora doesn't actually know how upset I am at her, because I've been keeping so much bottled up. Jon was really shocked when I told him how unhappy I was a few weeks ago. The reason that happened that way was that even though things *have* improved, I realized that they were still super-shitty. But I thought to myself "Lora is going to get therapy soon, and will slowly make progress, so all of this is transient. Why bring it up when in a few months, her behavior may have changed for the better?". And then I learned that she wasn't doing solo therapy (and said she didn't think she needed it) and it all came crashing down.

So - as she has no idea how deeply unhappy I am with her, part of the point of the email is to start expressing to her that I am unhappy I am with her about the things that really bother me. Then if I do say "I can't do this anymore" she at least has some idea beforehand about why and it doesn't feel like it was sprung on her or that she didn't have a chance to change and improve (because I guess realizing that on her own without having people expressly tell her isn't going to happen?).

Jon seems to think that if I talk to her (or express my frustrations) carefully that she'll be reasonable and it will give her more of a reason to acknowledge the things that are wrong and get solo therapy. I don't know if he believes that because he's got the rosiest tinted glasses in the world on, or if he thinks that - because only HE is her personal emotional punching bag so far - I'm in a different "category" than him, so she'll treat things from me differently. I mean, I KNOW that he thinks that she'll take things differently from me than him because she's only abusive towards him. I don't know if that thought is based in any kind of reality or in a desperate hope that it'll all be OK.

In case anybody is wondering what kind of amazing actress I am that she doesn't know anything is wrong, I should point out that the chronic pain often causes me to be quiet, withdrawn, and want to be alone and/or just spend time with Jon. So she's probably assuming that a lot of my more-withdrawn behavior lately is because I started a new type of PT that is giving me a significant amount of pain. Which is true - but not the whole truth.
 
Ooooooookay.

So. As I'd said earlier, I sent Jon and email about how upset I was. We texted about it a little bit and I reiterated to him that I had written an email that I wanted to send to her, given that he thinks I need to express my issues with her directly.

I asked him if I should send it to her. He said he didn't know.

I told him I could forward it to him first, if he wanted to see it. He said he didn't know and he was tired and exhausted and just didn't know. So I said "ok, let's not talk about it then".

I looked it over one last time. And I sent it.

I also looked up therapists that take my insurance, and I emailed a few of them, and in an amazing moment of serendipity, one responded today who sounded lovely on the phone and we made an appointment for next week. She said she was familiar with polyamory, and while she didn't specialize in it, she understood it, and was comfortable working with poly people.

We'll see if that actually pans out, but having a therapist to help me figure out how to communicate with Lora (and coach me on being confident that the things I ask for ARE reasonable and that I SHOULD ask for them) can't hurt.

I feel intensely guilty when I push Jon on these things. I worry that I'm pushing him for the wrong reasons, or that I shouldn't be pushing him at all. I worry that I'm butting into places that I shouldn't. I simultaneously worry that NOT pushing is enabling him him or helping him to stay in an abusive relationship. I worry about the intersection between my needs and rights, Lora's needs and rights, and Jon's needs and rights.

I guess I'll see what Lora has to say in response to my email.
 
Keep us posted! And I'm really glad to hear that you found your own therapist during all this stress. :eek:
 
I might be an idiot

I can admit that.

Lora wrote back. On the face of things, it was a good email. She apologized (great). She acknowledged that it's her insecurity ruling her and that she gets extra-anxious when Jon is working a lot (great). She said that still didn't excuse it, and that she was sorry not just for me hearing it, but also for saying it (awesome). She said she will not go there anymore (great idea, we'll see if it works in practice). She said it's a really weird feeling for her to have two people supporting her, and she needs to remember that we're there to build her up, not tear her down (eeeeerm, yes, sort of, but...personal responsibility, yo!).

She said that she knew that couples therapy would build her trust and confidence in her and Jon's relationship, and that would make things all better (NO).

So, first of all, while this all sounds great, in theory, and Jon will probably seize as a little crumb showing that she IS getting better, and really WANTS to get there. I see it as a tactic (quite possibly totally subconsciously) to keep things good for her, meaning if she does out a little bit of emotional competence, maybe we'll be satisfied and back off of that whole "taking care of herself" spiel.

So this is what I wrote back. It's all true, and it's just...I can't let the sleeping dogs like. I need to poke them with a stick. The dullest, kindest stick, but still a stick:

*****

Thank you for saying all that. I am really heartened by your response. I really want to say thank you, and that it means a lot to me that you said those things.

But, speaking as someone who has done a lot of therapy, I would feel like I'm taking the weak way out if I didn't say that that is going to be something that you need to work on for you. It's not a relationship thing; it's a you thing.

I'm not pointing that out to make you feel bad, or to be hard on you, but because all the support in the world from Jon or me isn't going to make it better, because it has to come from inside you and only you can fix it.

There was a point where I had a kind of triggering event. I was between therapists at the time, but something happened that brought up every horrible thing I'd ever felt about myself (it's a really, really long, and somewhat weird story). I wondered if I should just give up, and I felt like there was nothing I could possibly do to ever be a healthy, whole person. I sat in the bathroom and wondered if I should even bother to keep trying to live. I hadn't gotten my college degree yet, because I couldn't find anybody who would take me for my internship (remember, I mentioned that a while ago. There was a chunk of months where I had no idea if I'd ever get my degree, because nobody would take me as an intern). I had about 14k in credit card debt, and I was working as a Hooter Girl and a go-go dancer. My mom was pretty disgusted with me, and my dad was pretty baffled.

I felt like I'd failed at pretty much everything, including the relationship I was in. So why bother?

Why bother?

Why not bother?

Here's the thing, there was no concrete reason - the only person I "had" was a boyfriend who'd just told me that I was a completely fucked up, emotionally damaged person (like I said, long story). I wasn't speaking to my parents. They'd been amused, then kind of freaked out that I went from being a Hooter Girl to a go-go dancer. The "jokes" about becoming a stripper were becoming less jokey every day. I felt pretty awful about everything.

And I just figured "what the hell, why not?" Which isn't much, in the way of "what do I have to convince me to keep trying and work on myself?" But for me, the thing that was important about that was that nobody could take it away. If I had a reason - I'm pretty, I'm smart, I'm physically healthy, I am working two jobs and they love me, I have to live for my cat. Those are all THINGS and they can all be taken away. Hell, as I age, they're all going to be taken away.

But no one but me can take away that desire to change, to get better, to see what's out there, except for me. I get to choose that. I only answer to myself, and in the end, only I could make that decision in a way that made it totally MINE.

So I did.

That might make no sense whatsoever. But it's still true.

I really hope that helps. And even if it doesn't, I hope it makes it clear that I'm coming from a sincere and vulnerable place when I say that only YOU can make it better, and it's going to take work that you do for yourself, by yourself.

Even though it sucks and it's hard and it's scary, it's also the best thing ever in the end.

I hope you have a good night, and a good sleep, and wake up feeling good tomorrow. I'll see you at the hangout tomorrow.

*****

We'll see what tomorrow brings.
 
To take a quick tally of those things I cited as not good enough reasons to keep going, let's see how they went:

1) I'm pretty.

Still true. Though aging. Insecurity about looks, ugh. Plan on living long enough to be a wrinkly crone, which isn't pretty, but I'll be the wrinkliest and croneiest crone to ever crone.

2) I'm smart.

Still true, though a bout of viral meningitis about five years ago left with permanently with a difficulty recalling memories and maintaining memories (which is why I started writing shit down; it helps me to not lose myself), and far less stamina for intellectual pursuits (I was in a post-meningitis forum for awhile, because when you tell doctors about these permanent side effects, they often brush you off with a "there's no proof that happens" explanation. Funny how they dismissed it, but I found a really big forum full of people reporting the same permanent features that I had).

I no longer remember what it was like to be pre-meningitis me, but I was angry for about a solid year after, because of what I lost.

3) I'm physically healthy.

Nope. Disabled currently. Not visibly disabled, which means I get judgey looks if I ride the bus and aggressively try to sit. I look healthy and young, I must be healthy, right? Also sucks as I try to relearn how to do certain things with my disability and give up other beloved pastimes because of it.

4) I am working two jobs and they love me.

Can no longer work two jobs. See #2 & #3. I work one job. They like me a lot. I have daily problems because of my disability, but I'm still "good enough" at this job. I have had the experience of working for bosses who aren't pleasable and felt like a total failure until I kicked my own ass enough that I realized I had to leave the job.

5) I have to live for my cat.

Cat died. Got new cats. Love them, but they'll never replace deceased cats. Had a cat-free period of life where I had no cat to live for. Made it through.




So for me, yep, the best reason was no reason at all other than "Why not?". It's the only thing nobody can really ever take away from me, or that I can lose due to outside forces.
 
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I resonate with this as was diagnosed with ME three years ago. Ended up with me not being the full time carer of my kids, although I now manage around quasi disability myself. You do sometimes get to the point of why bother and then you realise it's up to yourself to bother. I so resonate with that. You can do that each day, I can do that each day, and whith each day we find our self stronger and stronger emotionally able to handle a lot more shit now. Because we know what the bottom of the barrel looks like and we know how to get out of it and avoid it for next time. And if we can't get out of it, we make it the most beautiful barrel around. Lol. (The disability part) ok so bad analogy but closest one I could think of, and we can only really control what we think and feel, and what we do about what we think and feel...
Big hugs. Pm me anytime you need a virtual pick me up :)
 
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Thank you, starlight1. Yep, the only person who can bother is us. So we might as well bother for all we're worth. : )

First I need to backtrack a little. Last night, I was out with that friend I mentioned, who is also a friend of Jon's. While Lora was writing her first email response to me, Sherri and I had dinner and drinks. Sherri and her husband had seen Jon for brunch the prior week (they're visiting from the other side of the country). We sat down, chatted about work for awhile, and then she sort of stopped, gave me a look and said to me "When Jon went out with me and Hubs, and I asked him how things were, he said everything was great and everybody was really getting along together wonderfully. Is that true?".

It was immediately obvious by my "Jesus fucking Christ Jon, that is a bold-faced lie there" look on my face that it wasn't fine. She sighed and said "You don't HAVE to tell me, but, I just, I can't do this. I think Lora's a really bad person, and he keeps saying she's great and I just haven't gotten to know her well enough. But I HAVE hung out with her and she constantly takes *all* his attention and for the ENTIRE brunch, he had his phone out and was texting with her constantly. When he stopped to go to the bathroom, she CALLED him like five times while he was in the bathroom".

So I told her the truth, though not the whole story. Lora is really controlling and insecure and says shitty things to Jon. She and Jon are going to start couples therapy, but I'm worried that that is bullshit - she needs to be doing her OWN therapy, because they don't have couples problems, they have ABUSE/CONTROL problems.

She thanked me for telling her and told me that *she* had been starting to feel crazy because she had such a bad feeling about Lora, but Jon kept saying how amazing she is. I told her that I thought she should talk to him directly about her concerns.

So that happened.

Meanwhile, Lora responded to my email (which I wrote about). I sent her the second email when I got home, and she responded to that email. She reiterated that she really meant what she said about understanding that she needed therapy and that she was really going to try. BUT - she said - part of why therapy was so stressful to her is that she'd had a ton of therapy as a child and it was a horrible experience. She also admitted that there are a lot of things that happened in her life that she feels really uncomfortable with, and has no interest in revisiting or talking about for any reason.

The "I had therapy before and it was terrible" statement is a direct contradiction to what she told me several times before, which was that she had never tried therapy and that she'd always thought she could benefit from it, but that her psychiatrists always said that it wasn't necessary. I remember this extremely clearly, because I had to restrain myself from saying "What kind of psychiatrist would tell a person who they were prescribing heavy-duty meds for anxiety and PTSD that she doesn't need therapy?". I want to cautiously bring this up to Jon, because he was present during one of the conversations where she said that, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm going a little bit insane.

Additionally, the part about there being past experiences that she has no interest in revisiting or talking about under any circumstances sounded pretty ominous. Though I've had years of therapy myself, I'm by no means an expert, but going into therapy with an attitude like that sounds like a recipe for making little to no progress, even if she's also saying she's really going to give it a try.

So, while Lora was responded to my emails in a theoretically positive, but deeply concerning way, Jon had decided that he'd had enough and texted her to tell her that he really thought that she needed solo therapy. They got into a huge fight over it, with him basically begging her to do solo therapy, which she grudgingly agreed to, in part because he told her he didn't know if he could handle it if she didn't.

I didn't know about this until Jon got home and I woke up to the sound of him stifling his sobs. He cried his eyes out last night. He told me about the fight he had with Lora earlier that night. He told me she was furious with him, because I'd emailed her too, and it was obvious to her that we're ganging up at her. He told me that he was sorry he kept pretending that everything was fine; he knew it was terrible, but he was afraid to talk to me about it. He told me that he made an appointment for solo therapy for himself. Then he said that he should go tell Lora he's home and say goodnight to her.

When he did, she launched into another fight with him - I'm not sure what about, but I heard the raised voices. He started sobbing again, and told her he didn't want to fight, and went to shower. She stayed with him in the bathroom while he was crying and showering. He wouldn't tell her what was wrong. I wasn't sure if I should join them or...god, it was around 3am and I had to be up for work at 8am, so the idea of wading in there was just...I couldn't do it.

But eventually he finished showering and came to bed (he and I were sleeping together last night). He cried a lot more, and said he was sorry, and that he didn't know what to do. I told him that solo therapy was a really great step in the right direction for him and for Lora. And I kept telling him that I loved him.

This morning, Lora was clearly still pissed at Jon, as she slammed around getting ready and then didn't come in to kiss him goodbye before she left for work.

Sherri messaged Jon this morning and said "I need to be honest with you about something. I know we're all supposed to go out tonight. But I really don't want to see Lora. I know you've said she's great, but I don't see it, it disturbed me the way you constantly texted her during brunch, and I'm really sorry to put you in a tight place, but I really don't want to see her". He told her that he understood, and that he'd had a really rough night, and that he was thinking about talking to her (Sherri) about it. She told him she would love to talk to him about things, that she's felt like he never tells her anything and has gotten increasingly withdrawn and that she's really worried about him.

I also let her know that I was going to tell Jon that I talked to her, and how it came about (mainly, that he'd told her everything was wonderful, and she couldn't believe it, so asked me for verification), but I wanted to give him a day or so. I'm going to talk to him about that tomorrow.

I have no idea what (if anything) is going to happen tonight. I feel totally exhausted. I'd love to see Sherri one last time before she flies back to Other Coast, but I am just totally wiped out and also feeling a combination of shell-shocked and afraid of screwing up. I'm not sure how to define "screwing up" right now, but I'm afraid of it. Probably because this is one of those situations that has no clean "right thing" or "wrong thing" to do. I wrestle with if I'm being too pushy or if I shouldn't be involved.

I also wrestle with...one of the things that Sherri brought up last night was that she really doesn't think that Lora is poly or has ever been poly, but when Lora met Jon, she wanted to be with him so much that she lied about it. I tentatively agree, both based off the things that Lora has said about prior relationships*, as well as the way that she has acted throughout our relationships. But I haven't brought that up or called her on it because I don't have any concrete "proof", it's a gut feeling. That said, if it *is* true that Lora's really not poly and that a huge amount of our problems stem from her trying to force herself to be poly to stay with Jon...there's really nothing anybody can do about that, is there? Other than Lora, that is.

Sometimes it feels like this entire polyship is built out of sand and lies. But no one wants to admit to it. Although it seems like Jon may finally be ready to admit to it.

I guess I'll keep on seeing what happens.


* Things Lora has said about prior relationships: She has only had two serious relationships. For both, she has only ever discussed her relationship with that partner. There has never been a conversation about a metamour or anything poly related. Each of those two relationships happened at a different time - they didn't overlap. The words that shes used when she talks about them, and the problems in them, all sound much more monogamous. On one hand, I hesitate to call her a liar, but the things she says on so many things really set off my hinky meter.
 
Sherri and I have been talking back and forth today about Lora. It turns out that Sherri has a lot of feelings about Lora.

To start, I should say that Jon has known Sherri for longer than I have. I met Sherri before I met Jon (not much before him), but I knew her and we'd already been forming a friendship before I met Jon. Sherri is polyflexible - or was? maybe - her hubby isn't interested in poly at all, and she's fine with that.

Sherri and Jon had, in the past, had some make-outs and petting. The three of us also had some make-outs and petting and light kink stuff. Nothing under the clothing, and nothing too crazy.

When Lora and Jon started dating, naturally Jon told Lora that he and Sherri were friends, but had also been somewhat intimate and occasionally continued to explore that. The "Lora texting constantly when Sherri and Jon are hanging out" thing is apparently a thing that has been going on for years. I got the impression from Sherri that she was hesitant to broach any of her feelings about Lora with Jon until she and I talked yesterday, because he kept saying how awesome Lora was and how Sherri just needed to get to know her.

One of the things that Sherri brought up today was how, when she, Hubs, and Jon were at brunch, Jon was saying they had to make plans to hang out with Lora too, because Lora missed Sherri like crazy and was dying to see her. Lora said to me "And I thought, um, really? Because she has my email address, she has my phone number, she never calls, texts, skypes, emails, or does anything to show she likes me. My main relationship with her is through her constantly calling and texting Jon when we're together".

So I told Sherri about a weird (and somewhat disconcerting thing) that happened with Lora last week.

Sherri and her hubs were traveling in the area, and supposed to get in on Friday and go to dinner with me, Lora, and Jon. Sherri and her hubs got in late on Friday, due to a wreck making their trip in hours longer than it should have been, so she told us they couldn't make it. I was bummed, but not too bummed, because Sherri and I had made plans to hang out the next night (Jon was working the next night). When Jon, Lora and I were having dinner, Jon asked if I'd made any plans for the weekend. I said I was hanging out with Sherri the next night. Lora says "That's totally not fair! Why does Liz get to hang out with Sherri and I don't?". I told Lora she'd be welcome to come - it was more than just Sherri and I hanging out, though inwardly I thought to myself "fuck, why did I say anything in front of her?".

Also, at the time, I thought to myself "Lora's first reaction seemed to be that it was unfair that I got something that she didn't. I had thought Lora and Sherri weren't particularly friends, and I'd had the impression that Sherri didn't really like Lora. But it seemed less about seeing Sherri and more about it me getting something that Lora doesn't". But whatever, Lora and Sherri are friends, in theory, so I invited her along (she ended up bailing).

Sherri has been in town for nearly two weeks. Though Lora has told Jon that she really wanted to see Sherri, and has told me that it wasn't fair that I was seeing Sherri and she wasn't, she hasn't, in this entire time, made a move to contact Sherri or make plans with Sherri herself. Her MO seems to be to hear about other people's plans (or have Jon make plans for her) and then just show up.

Anyways, I mentioned the weirdness with it seeming like the only thing Lora cares about is if I "get" something that Lora doesn't. This has become a major theme in the last few weeks. I am getting so incredibly sick of the phrase "that's not fair!" and the phrase "Why does Liz get XXX and I don't?". Are we small children? Do we not have our own lives that have different things in them?

Oh, I forgot - and I forgot to mention this earlier - we don't. Lora doesn't really *have* a life. She has two or three online friends. But honestly, she really & truly has no one to hang out with, and nobody that she talks to regularly other than Jon and me. When Lora was unemployed earlier this year (and last year), one of the things that she repeatedly bitched about was how unfair it was that she couldn't find people online to date or even just be friends with, because she had no money, as she wasn't working. In the time that I've known Lora, there have been two steady periods (before this) when she's had a job, and had money and could have gone online and found people to go out with. While she wasn't working, she was on OKC and other dating sites a LOT, looking at guys, talking to them, flirting with them, but never going out with them, because she couldn't pay her way and refused to take money from Jon to go out on dates. Since getting a job, she hasn't said a word about online dating or going on dates.

Now, finals have been hairy for her. I can see her waiting until finals are over to look to date. And let's be clear, I think her looking to date is a terrible idea, because of all of the problems that she should be working on for herself. I'm just saying that we've been through two cycles of "Lora bitches about not being able to date or go out and make friends with unemployed but then stops looking for people to date/be friends with the moment she's making money".

This is some of the stuff that I don't understand Jon not looking at as red flags. Whenever Lora *can't* have something (or feels like saying she can't have something) it's the most desirable thing in the world to her. But the moment she can, she's not interested. And she wants people to do things for her. L

Maybe I should have said to her "Why don't you message Sherri about tomorrow night and see about joining us?" (keep in mind, this was before Sherri told me that she didn't like Lora. I suspected, but I didn't know, and thought I could have been mistaken). Jon always makes plans for Lora. I fell into it too, because with most people, it's a natural thing to invite another person along to a group outing (and most of my friends are "the more, the merrier" types). But Lora never organizes anything or tries to make anything happen. She just latches on to things that she hears about.

It's so frustrating.
 
I'd be tempted to respond to Lora's outcries with, "Yup! And life isn't fair..." and walk away. Probably totally not the most effective response, but I don't think I could put up with someone who uses "not fair" frequently. She does sound like a child.

"Moooommmm, Lizzie got two cookies and I only got one! It's not faaaaaair!"
 
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