Charting Our Course

So I made a minor fuck up yesterday with Boots...

We went out to our usual Thursday lunch, and were talking about my meeting Glow the other night. I said I love the way he and she look when they talk about each other, that "glowing" kind of expression, and then jokingly said I hoped someday he would look that way when he talks about me. He got really quiet, then stammered something about how it took a long time to get to that point with Glow.

I assured him I wasn't trying to push anything or insinuate my way into his life in any role other than what he's okay with, but I felt like he thought I was being too pushy. I told him if I said something that bothered him, I needed him to tell me, and he said it didn't bother him... but his reaction said otherwise, and I'm still having trouble believing someone (either him or Hubby) when they say something I do or say isn't a problem, because S2 said that about so many things and was lying.

Boots acts uncomfortable with me sometimes anyway, and I honestly don't know if I'm perceiving it wrong, or if it's because of something that has nothing to do with me personally, or if I am doing something and he doesn't want to tell me.

I don't think it's the last one. I've told him all along that if something about me is a problem for him, I want him to tell me. He knows why; he knows about S2's dishonesty and the problems it's causing for me. And I don't have any reason to believe he *wouldn't* be honest...but right now it's hard for me to trust anyone who says I'm not a problem, even Hubby, because that specifically was what S2 was the most dishonest about.

Not fucking happy with myself for letting the fallout from S2 interfere. I am working on it, and I am trying to separate my emotional reactions from my logical ones and not let the emotional ones out around Boots. He doesn't deserve to be impacted by issues someone else caused for me.

Meanwhile, in addition to our standing Thursday lunch dates, Boots and I agreed yesterday that Saturdays will be one of our regular nights, and that we'll try to have a few hours together one weeknight a week. The weeknight probably won't be the same every week; he's taking voice lessons, and the day of his lesson changes from week to week. So what I think is going to happen is he's going to schedule his voice lesson each week, then let me know which nights he has available the following week. But he did say he likes the idea of seeing me one night a week after work as well as Saturday nights.

We won't be seeing each other tomorrow, though. Shine is going to be away for the entire weekend, so Boots and Glow had already planned to spend the weekend together. Knowing how tightly Glow schedules things, I'm inclined to believe that, other than the moving, their plans for this weekend were made before I even met Boots, so I have no problem with it.

He apologized for not being able to see me tomorrow, and for not telling me sooner, and I told him that as far as I'm concerned, Glow takes priority, particularly if plans have already been made or even tentatively discussed. But I also told him that if we're going to have a regular night or two together every week, I would prefer that *I* be the priority for those nights and that he not change plans unless there's a solid reason. He looked surprised that I even thought I needed to say that; he didn't completely understand why I thought there was a possibility that he *wouldn't* make me the priority when we have plans together. (It's another piece of crap from S2; over the summer, on three occasions he bailed on plans with me that we'd made weeks or, in one case, months earlier. One of those times, he canceled an hour before I was supposed to go to his place.)

So since Boots and I aren't seeing each other tomorrow, we're getting together Monday after he gets out of work instead. I'm debating whether to bring up the discomfort I've noticed on his part; I don't want to make him feel self-conscious or like I'm being pushy or clingy or whatever, but on the other hand, if I don't ask him about it I'm going to keep wondering whether I'm doing something wrong or whether I'm seeing something that isn't even there or what.
 
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Yesterday was a weird mental/emotional day. I was stuck in "worrying about S2" land most of the day, and even when I tried to distract myself or focus my thoughts on something else, my mind kept wandering back there. To the point that I couldn't fall asleep or stay asleep for the first 4 hours after I went to bed, because I kept either thinking about him when I was half awake, or having nightmares about his girlfriend physically hurting him when I dozed off.

I really hate days when my brain chooses not to cooperate with me. Fortunately, today I'm in a better headspace, and my thoughts are where I want them to be. Mostly. Except for a little anxiety about seeing Boots tomorrow night, because I think I do need to talk to him about my perception that he's uncomfortable with me. If he *is* uncomfortable and it's something I'm doing or not doing, I want to work on it. If he's uncomfortable because of his own issues, or if I'm completely wrong about him even being uncomfortable at all, I want to know so I can stop worrying about it.

I'm also hoping we can have a sort of "status check" conversation. I don't really need to label where we're at with each other, though the part of my brain that keeps things in neat little boxes because that's easier to deal with would like to at least know what to call his role in my life. But I don't *need* that.

What I'm hoping for is to find out what the possibilities are. I would never ask "Where do you see this going?" because no one can predict the future. But I would like to ask him "Where are you willing to let this go if it goes that way?" In other words... is he open to it becoming a full-fledged relationship, similar to but not necessarily as deep as what he has with Glow? Would he prefer it not go beyond FWB? etc. At this point, I think I'm open to just about anything, though I would prefer it actually become a relationship. I'd like to get an idea of where his thoughts are at with it, because, for example, if he *isn't* open to it becoming a relationship, I either need to adjust my thoughts or I need to end this and find someone who wants the same thing I do.

One thing I learned--the really, really hard way--from my experience with S2 is that I need to exercise the control and power I can exercise in a connection with someone else. With S2, right from the beginning I told him "I'm following your lead because I want you to be comfortable with this." Which made sense at the time; he was only two months out of a 14-year marriage, and while he had at one time been involved with a woman who was polyamorous and had another partner, that situation happened 20 years ago and ended unpleasantly for him.

But by always deferring to his comfort level, I left myself open for what happened between us. Instead of asserting myself and *my* comfort level, I just kept going with what I thought he wanted and needed, even when it was painful for me. Even when he flat out told me "Don't worry about me, do what's right for YOU, I don't want you to be hurt."

I don't regret that. I can't regret doing what I felt was right at the time, even if it didn't turn out to be the right thing. And I learned from it, and I think he did as well.

But I won't put myself in that situation again. I can't control what Boots says or does, nor would I try to. I can't control what he does or doesn't accept in our situation. I can't control whether he tells me what's on his mind. But I *can* control whether I ask what's on his mind. I can control whether I ask him what's acceptable so I can either stay within that framework or end the connection if we're too mismatched. I can control whether I'm in a situation that is healthy and comfortable for me, because if it isn't, I can control whether I stay or leave.
 
I am not sure why you need to define, declare, or determine if the thing with Boots is a "relationship" or not. Seems to me, if you're seeing the guy 2-3 times a week, regular scheduled time, it's a relationship of sorts. It's only what? a month in? If it were me, I'd say things are going well. You are fond of each other, attracted to each other. And the sex is great. But you're still very much in the "getting to know you" stage

How do you define relationship as opposed to FWB thing? Why do you need to draw a line between the statuses after only knowing him a short time?

I do feel, from your words, you are still in rebound mode from S2... so you're doing the best you can to relate to Boots as Boots, but there is still a lot of "baggage," as it were, that you can't help but bring to Boots. And he is aware there is baggage, but likes you anyway. So, a new relationship right after a fizzle and a breakup. It is what it is. Why label it? Why pressure him to label it?
 
Like I said, it wasn't so much a matter of declaring or defining what it is *now*. It was a matter of determining where it *could* go. When you have sex with a new partner, and even sometimes throughout a sexual relationship, you set sexual boundaries. With people like me--and Boots, because he and I share some unfortunate commonalities in our histories--sometimes when you connect with someone new, you need to set emotional boundaries as well. That was what I was trying to do, which I wasn't explaining clearly here. It isn't about labels or definitions; it's about "I can handle this depth of emotional involvement, but not that depth."

As it happens, Boots brought up the subject last night before I did. He told me I've said some things that implied I was looking for a more intense, romantic relationship than he's comfortable with or emotionally able to handle with anyone in addition to Glow. He said if that's the kind of thing I'm looking for, he isn't able to provide it, but that friendship is within his emotional boundaries.

After I got past the way-too-close similarity between what he was saying and what S2 said when he "downgraded" with me, I was honestly glad that was where Boots's head was at. Going back through the past few weeks of posts, despite saying in the last one that I would prefer the intense romantic relationship type of thing, I said a few times before that I didn't think I could fall in love with Boots, that I felt more "friendshippy" for want of a better word with him than anything. The boundary he set benefits both of us, because it isn't putting either of us in a position of trying to handle an emotional depth that we might not be able to sustain. I apologized to Boots for the things I'd said that concerned him and explained that I didn't say them because I was expecting or even necessarily hoping for a more intense thing than he's open to, it was because I *didn't know* what he was open to or looking for.

For some people, labels and definitions don't matter. For me--and evidently for Boots based on last night's discussion--they're important because they give us a sense of security that we know what's going to happen, because we assign certain expectations and behaviors to the different labels. And labeling also helps us ensure that anyone else we're involved with is on the same page as far as what's going to happen, what's okay, what isn't, etc. As another sign of how in sync we are mentally, we have exactly the same expectations and thoughts about those things.

In a "friendship," as Boots and I define it, there's a different level of emotional investment, intensity, and involvement in each other's lives than there is in a "relationship." A "relationship" by our definition includes regular, scheduled weekly dates; a "friendship" doesn't. Boots is able to handle the friendship level, not the relationship one. Which I'm okay with because "friendship" takes a lot of pressure off me that would be present in a "relationship," and now that it's been established that that's where we're at, I feel very relieved.

So the conversation he and I had on Thursday about Saturdays being our regular weekly night is now moot. We're still going to see each other for movies, hanging out, etc, but it won't necessarily be a weekly thing and sometimes might be spur of the moment, though when I asked if we could sometimes plan things like that in advance, his immediate, no-hesitation response was "Absolutely, I know you need that stability and I'm okay with that." We are going to continue the Thursday lunch dates, in part because he says I'm "adorable" when I try to use chopsticks at the Chinese restaurants he takes me to.

Fortunately, we're also on the same page about the friendship continuing to include benefits. Sexually we each bring something to the other that isn't present in our other relationships, and neither of us wanted to give that up. He told me that when I say he's the first partner I've ever had with whom I'm a hundred percent comfortable and confident sexually, he feels like it's another indication of pressure toward the "relationship" level, but he understood and was okay with it when I explained that it isn't meant to be indicative of that, it's more "Holy shit, THIS is what sex was supposed to be all along and I'm finally having it, this is amazing!"
 
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Been feeling really discouraged the past couple of days.

Boots is cool to hang out with, and being friends with him is fine with me. But in my life, friendships usually don't last any longer than relationships. Relationships, other than my current marriage and my first marriage, have never lasted more than a year and a half, if that. And my first marriage was abusive, so that isn't exactly a good indicator of my success with long-term relationships.

As for friendships... The people I know offline who call themselves my friends don't talk to me. If I reach out and say hi, they might or might not answer. If I don't reach out, I don't hear from them at all. I'm not talking about a matter of days. I'm talking months. And when I do reach out to say hi, we might talk for a few minutes, maybe discuss getting together... then we don't talk again for several more months. So Boots saying we're friends translates in my mind into "Boots will stick around for maybe a few more months, and then he'll disappear like everyone else. If it even lasts that long." I should be happy to get to have the fun times, clothed or naked, with him with no relationship-type pressure... but I'm having trouble being happy when I can't believe he'll still even be speaking to me by Christmas.

I know this post sounds whiny. It's hard to explain the mess that depression makes in your brain to people who don't have depression. I'm not *feeling* "oh, woe is me, no one likes me." In my brain right now... the REALITY is that no one likes me and that's never going to change, and it hurts like hell. Even intellectually knowing that the depression is fucking with me doesn't change how real it feels.

This morning when I talked to Hubby about this, he said, "Somewhere, there are people who will want you around and will want to keep spending time with you. You just have to keep looking."

To which my answer was "Why bother?" If I haven't found anyone--other than Hubby--like that in 45 years, I'm probably not going to now either. Friendship, relationship, undefined...whatever, all of it translates to pain and rejection, so why would I keep looking for that?

The only way I even have to meet people in "real life" is through OKC or AFF, and both of those require wading through oceans of frogs to find anyone you want to spend time with. I'm feeling shitty enough without bringing more frogs into my life. I joined a few groups on Meetup, but the ones I'm most interested in don't seem to actually meet up, or they do but their events are at times when I either can't go or am not comfortable going because of the time and location. (Social anxiety sometimes interferes too; I plan to go to something but freeze up when I realize I'm walking into a room of total strangers I know nothing about.) I don't have a job outside the home. I don't have family other than my parents, who live 2 hours away and prefer not to see me. Hubby's family doesn't care to interact with me, and as I said, I don't have offline friends. Some days I don't even leave the house because I don't have anywhere to go. No one other than Hubby and Alt usually texts me, and no one ever calls me at all. So most days, other than posting stuff on forums and Facebook, the only human interaction I have is with my kids and Hubby. Which doesn't help the feeling lonely thing, but I don't know how to change it and today I don't think it's worth trying. It's easier to be lonely than to reach out to people and be rejected.

I usually snap out of this kind of thing in a day or two, so hopefully it's nearing its end now and I can be some version of normal again for a while.
 
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Spent some time on the phone with Guy last night. Hubby is supportive but tends toward the "I'm sorry you feel that way, I wish I could help" model of being supportive. Guy will wallop me upside the head (figuratively speaking) with some truths that, even if I don't want to hear them, usually get through. I would never trust him enough again to even be in the same room with him, but as a text/phone call friend, he's the one person I know I can count on to say what I need to hear without lying or judging.

He got pissy when I said Boots had said we needed to stick with a FWB situation. Guy's first interpretation was that Boots wanted to just use me for sex. When I told him that the one regularly-scheduled date Boots was willing to keep is our *G-rated* Thursday lunches, and that *I* was the one who asked if benefits were going to remain part of the friendship, Guy chilled out. Other than a few-minute detour into another round of him bashing S2, which I defused because that wasn't the point of the conversation.

I told him I'm fighting the inclination to tell Boots that, while friendship is perfectly fine with me, I feel like I can't be open with him anymore, I always have to be on guard about what I say and how I say it. If I continue to feel that way, a friendship wouldn't be sustainable, because I have enough people in my life, present and past, with whom I have/had to constantly censor myself. I don't really have room for another.

Guy said that given what I told him previously about Boots, and given that Boots does want to be friends and the sex is really good and something I'm very comfortable with, he thinks I should hang in there and try to get past the negative impressions. But he also said I have to do what I feel is right for me, and that he'll be around to support me and listen to me no matter what I decide about Boots.

I haven't fully decided, but I know which way I'm leaning. The relationship with S2 was very stressful, in large part because I always felt like I was doing something wrong and that was why he was backing away and eventually "downgraded." And even though S2 told me it wasn't my fault, he later admitted that he hadn't been entirely honest when he said that, that there were things about me that contributed but they were things I didn't have control over. Because of that discussion with Boots Monday night, I'm now feeling about him the same way I did with S2. Like I've done something wrong and need to fix it, but don't entirely know what it is or *how* to fix it, so all I can do is keep trying not to do things wrong. And when Boots tells me I'm not doing anything wrong, even though intellectually I know he's telling the truth, I question it. A friendship should be WAY less stress than a relationship, but in this case, it's more, and I don't need stress right now.

Which sucks, because as I've posted before, I was immediately and completely comfortable with Boots when we met, and remained so right up until that discussion on Monday. But now... I felt so awkward and uncomfortable with him when we met up on Thursday that I almost told him I didn't want to do lunch after all.

The whole "we'll see each other when we see each other" thing doesn't really work for me either, to be honest. It's too open-ended given my personality and his. I'm usually reluctant to ask even close friends if they want to get together, and Boots is reluctant to "bother" people. I told him if we're doing it this way, I can't always be the one to ask, I need him to take the initiative sometimes, and he agreed. But I'm rather doubtful as to whether it's actually going to happen, and right now, given that he apparently felt like I was being too pressurey, I'm not particularly inclined to take the initiative either. So the question of whether the friendship can be maintained may be completely irrelevant; it might just end up fading out.

Ugh.
 
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I just deleted what I'd typed a few minutes ago... I'm having one of those days where I should make sure I know what I'm ranting about before I rant. Doesn't help that I slept like crap last night. I kept having nightmares about bugs, and Hubby's CPAP needs a new mask, so the thing isn't actually keeping him from snoring anymore, and if he's in the wrong position it sounds like a vacuum cleaner right next to my ear.
 
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Tomorrow is Thursday. Which means it's time for another round of "awkward as fuck lunchtime with Boots." I'm not going to make up my mind until I actually see him, because I do realize that sometimes the reality of something isn't as bad as my brain makes it, but I'm most likely going to just tell him that as far as I'm concerned, a "friendship" where I feel like I can't speak freely, with someone with whom I can't even communicate between times that we see each other because he doesn't reach out to me *or* answer my texts, isn't a real friendship and isn't worth my time. Especially when this is someone who said he wanted to be supportive and be a person I could lean on when I'm having a rough time. If he can't even answer "Guess what, I got a publishing contract!", I can't really count on him to answer "I'm feeling really low today and could use someone to talk to."

I'm not in the mood to be someone's afterthought again, or someone's "I feel bad for her so I'm going to tell her I'll be there." I had enough of the afterthought thing with S2; I'm not putting myself through that again. But S2, even at the end, even though he didn't answer every single one of my texts at that point, ALWAYS answered if I texted him with either good news or a "I need to talk." For that matter, even though he and I are no-contact at the moment, I have no doubt that if I reached out and said I've been struggling a lot the past few days, he would try to make time to listen (or read, in the case of texts)...at least as long as his girlfriend didn't find out. And I would do the same for him, no matter how angry I am with him right now. Despite everything, I *trust* that he would be there if I really needed him. I don't trust that with Boots.

Obviously friendship isn't only, or even mostly, about having someone to lean on, but the good things about hanging out with Boots aren't there anymore. I'm not comfortable with him now, I can't talk to him anymore, and since we're only getting together for lunches, I guess we aren't fucking anymore either, even though we'd agreed to be FWB. All I have left with him is a free lunch... that isn't a reason to spend time with someone.

So yeah. As usual when I feel this way, I'm going to wait and see before I make the final decision. When I did that with S2, I always ended up backing down and continuing the whatever the fuck it was, though I probably shouldn't have. But I know I'm not in the right headspace to make a final decision about cutting someone out of my life without seeing them face to face and at least trying to talk about the problem.

Meanwhile, we're getting major wind and rain here. Not right at this second, but we did this morning, and we're in for more later. I'm worried about Country getting home safely; she drives herself to and from school now, and later this afternoon/evening she has to go to the fairgrounds near her school for a health and safety meeting for everyone who's going to be working at the fair. (Her school club runs a food stand at that fair every year, and the fair is starting soon.) The meeting isn't scheduled to end until 7, which looks like it's going to be at the worst of the storm. I texted her and told her to check the Department of Transportation website and our town's website before she leaves to come home to make sure all the roads on her route are open and clear, and that if she has any concerns, to call Hubby. I already alerted him that he's responsible for getting her home if she can't manage it, either by talking her through a safer route or by going to pick her up. He has a full-sized pickup and is used to driving that--and boats--in severe weather.

Our town only has two roads in and out; we're on sort of a peninsula. One of the roads almost always ends up being closed in weather like what's forecast, because it runs right along the shore and there's always either flooding or massive amounts of splashover from the ocean. Last time it happened, Country was late getting home from school (last spring) because her bus usually takes the shore road into town, and they had to reroute. Alt was working today and came home three hours early; she said that because of the forecast, her employer sent home anyone who lives near the ocean or relies on the commuter trains.

And while I was typing that, Country called and said if she is worried about getting home and/or roads are closed, she's going to spend the night with a friend who lives about halfway between their school and our house.
 
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In many cases, posts in this blog were my own fears, catastrophizing, assumptions, and misperceptions, rather than truth or reality. I had tried to identify the suppositions and untrue or incorrect statements as I learned the truth, but I believe I did not manage to do so in every case.

Those posts have been brought to the attention of people mentioned in them. Personal information contained in those posts, whether correct or not, has caused great emotional harm.

Thanks to the mods, the section of this blog with posts that mentioned those people have been removed so that no more harm will be caused.

I apologize for the writings which have caused this.
 
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I'm sorry this has happened.

Your writings have not caused them pain. Their reactions to your thoughts - which you acknowledge are you working out things for yourself - have caused pain. Your honesty, and attempting to understand yourself, are not at fault.

I hope this blog does not go away and you continue writing here, or elsewhere if that's not tenable.
 
Hi folks. I deleted over 500 posts of KC's at her request. We don't delete threads here, but we can delete or edit posts for people, but only in the Blogs forum because our Blogs are protected in that way.

It made me sad to do it, because it's a personal journal, for fuck's sake, and I know how much it helped her to write here. I don't like that people aren't taking responsibility for their own emotional responses and are pointing their fingers at KC as if she did something wrong. She was only writing about her own thoughts and feelings, and used aliases, so I don't quite understand why someone would alert people to what she had written, nor why those people got all bent out of shape about it. All her writing was about her own personal processing. She had no bad intentions toward anyone, and that was very clear to all of us here. I told her she didn't do anything wrong, but she asked me to delete the posts - so I did. If any of you forum members want to add a post to this thread, please be careful not to mention anyone she has written about here recently.

KC, I hope you continue to participate here because you will be missed greatly if you disappear. If you still feel that blogging will help you, you can start one some somewhere else, password protect it, and invite only people you trust to read it (sign me up!).

I hope deleting helped.
 
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I add my support and wishes that you do not disappear from the boards because of this.

I am sorry that someone felt it was their place to point others to your blog.

As others have said, I hope you continue to blog your journey, if not here than some other safe place.
 
Add me to the voices hoping you'll feel comfortable enough to stay and participate. I'm sorry this happened - I certainly have done my own share of venting in my blog thread, and I know it helps to get it out, even when (especially when!) it may all be emotional and not necessarily reality. I'm sorry your space here to do that no longer feels like a safe space for you.

Hoping for some healing...
 
KC, I'm so sorry you're struggling with this.

I hope you know that, whatever upset it has caused recently in your life, your blog has been a source of inspiration for so many of us here, and will be terribly missed if it ends.
 
Oh no, KC! I feel bad for you. I also had my blog stalked and used against me, and it feels incredibly invasive.
 
I appreciate the support.

To clarify: I do consider the situation my responsibility, because my lack of clarity and information I had no right to share were the cause of this. In order to ensure everything damaging was removed, it seemed best to remove the entire section of the blog. I thank Cyndie for doing so.
 
I've been reading you since I started here, though never posted. Add me to the list of those that thinks this stinks. The Internet has made the world a small place and some have nothing better to do than stir up trouble. I hope you will continue to blog here, as you were one of few who did so on the regular. I hope that your personal relationships have not been damaged by this.

I fear Laney finding my blog!

Sending you hugs and healing vibes

Elle
 
I'm sorry for our loss of your experience. I have gotten helpful knowledge from what you have shared. I am also sorry for whomever felt their privacy and confidences were violated. Though, anyone who comes in to the life of a writer, seems to me, ought to have some idea that they are now part of a creative process. The number of people who have felt ill portayed in a friend's or acquaintence's writings is beyond reckoning. The unhappy person in this case is lucky it was in a medium that is easily changed and that you were willing.

Leetah
 
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