Narcissism and kink vs ethical poly

sabrina8

New member
Hey, people!

I wanted to open this topic up here, excuse me if it already exists (would be happy to get the link of a thread about it).

I am recently recovering from a narcissistic relationship and sexual abuse. It is a very complicated journey for me and it is hard to articulate the problem. I have huge trust issues and a great fear of intimacy, even physical with other people. At the same time, I do have a libido.

I think I would not like another relationship, yet again I cannot trust strangers or have casual sex anymore. Or complete a partner's fantasies with other people etc. Maybe you understand where I am going.

I do not think I can deal with too many people, yet I am not jealous if a partner does, yet I am distrustful of anyone involved too close in my life.

You know how some of the characteristics given of a narc are always related to kinky lustful sex, non-monogamy etc. I understand and am ok with non-monogamy, I guess even with some kinky stuff but how do you survive with so many fucking social predators, using these things against others and using sex as a form of control & having sex with multiple people as a form of self-validation...
Am I asking the poly question of all time ?
 
how do you survive with so many fucking social predators, using these things against others and using sex as a form of control & having sex with multiple people as a form of self-validation...

I'm not meaning to be obtuse, but is this your question?
 
Re (from sabrina8):
"You know how some of the characteristics given of a narc are always related to kinky lustful sex, nonmonogamy, etc."

I was not aware of the relation between these things. My view is that narcs can be just as easily monogamous as nonmonogamous, as easily vanilla as kinky, and as easily neutral as lustful when it comes to sex. What defines narcissism is a sense of self-importance, and a focus on self-gratification. Narcs can appear in the form of proud conservatives, think along the lines of Donald Trump. What you need to do is, look for an inflated ego, look for abusive behavior, don't be too focused on the sex aspect per se. If someone is poly, check to see whether they're poly in an ethical way. Have healthy boundaries of what kind of treatment you'll tolerate.

At least that would be my advice.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Much of my poly experience has been spent dodging narcissists... I have two 'types' - the exciting, love bombing narcissists who hook me in and then withdraw just enough to keep up their supply (and these have been both kinky and vanilla), and the more stable, perhaps less exciting characters who have been perfectly lovely but maybe just a little bit boring...

But I've come to realise that the problem is with me - not the hundreds of devaluing things that I've been accused of over the years, but my addiction to the excitement, acceptance of being treated that way and general people pleasing behaviours... So much as it's painful to admit, the only way of getting away from that type of person is to fix those things in myself... Because there's no way you can fix a narcissist!
 
I was not aware of the relation between these things. My view is that narcs can be just as easily monogamous as non-monogamous, as easily vanilla as kinky, and as easily neutral as lustful when it comes to sex. What defines narcissism is a sense of self-importance, and a focus on self-gratification. Narcs can appear in the form of proud conservatives, think along the lines of Donald Trump. What you need to do is, look for an inflated ego, look for abusive behavior, don't be too focused on the sex aspect per se. If someone is poly, check to see whether they're poly in an ethical way. Have healthy boundaries of what kind of treatment you'll tolerate.

Kevin, when I was healing from my relationship with a narcissist, I absolutely had had the issues sabrina8 is talking about. And I read a lot about it on sites dealing with recovery from a relationship with a narcissist. Lots of narcs do reel the victims in with wild, intense, kinky sex, sex in public, etc. And many women go against their own natures to do the extra daring sex the narcs want. Narcs don't care about social approval. In fact, they get off on flaunting social norms. So wild kinky or public sex is something they quite commonly seek.

Now, being as I am kinky, I wasn't going against my nature doing those things with the narc I was dating. Although the sex in public where there was a chance, however low, of getting caught, lost its charm after we were caught once. He would've kept doing it, and did do something sexual really weird once that didn't actually involve me (I witnessed it though), and that's when I started thinking, there's something really wrong and off with this guy.

sabrina, welcome to the board. I hear you saying you're still healing from the relationship, and you're leery of dating, but you have a sex drive and aren't sure how to deal with that, when you're not trustful of anyone right now, either for a real relationship or even a hookup.

I agree, that is a tough one. I took a good six months break from even trying to date others after my train wreck with the narc. However, I am lucky in that, I am poly, and I'd been living with my nesting partner the whole time I was also seeing the narc. And so, when I felt like having any sex at all, besides masturbating, I could have sex with her. Since I trust her completely and she is not a narc.

It's now been 5 years since I dated that narc. I don't think I'll ever get over it completely. I have since dated 2 men who had narcissistic sociopathic tendencies. One of them, it only took about 3 dates to see the red flags and dump him. The other one, gosh, it took longer. It was a bummer. He wasn't as charismatic as the other guy. He was more modest and unassuming. We had a thing last year. We dated about 7 months. I didn't begin to really see the red flags until we were about 5 months in. As soon as it became perfectly clear, I dumped him too.

Those damned narcissists. There are too many of them! With "mono" narcs and the women they date, it's easier in a way. Because when a narc is cheating, he's cheating, and it's clear he's on the idealizing/ignoring/triangulation pattern. When you and he are "poly," it can be harder to spot the pattern! You may be fine he wants to see others, and then the triagulation starts, and he starts telling you you're not really poly, or not a "good" poly. It's hard to see clearly what's going on. And he's gaslighting you, and giving out the word salad, and .... ugh!

In my case, with the second narc, he idealized me, he was nice to me. He didn't love bomb me super hard though. He just seemed compatible and interesting. But then, after the first 5 months, he lost his NRE and started trying to seduce my gf. Which the first narc had also tried, and succeeded at. My gf and I no longer date or hookup with the same guy because of that. And now this second narc was TOLD she and I don't date or hookup with the same guy, and yet, he kept trying to seduce her, and finally actually started touching her without consent!

Those bastards!

What's a girl to do? I think all we really can do is be aware of the red flags and be on our guards. Narcs are only 4% of the population. Which means there are lots of nice "normals" out there. We don't have to stop dating forever just because we run into one of the narcs once in a while.

But if you're not healed yet, and horny, all I can recommend is masturbation. :(
 
Whoa... I'm feeling a little taken aback by the thread title. Kink gets put on the side with narcissism versus ethical poly? Really? Kink isn't unethical poly :p And I am sure there's still quite the proportion of mono or vanilla narcissists.

The BDSM world seems to be a pretty decent cross section of the population, to my mind. No better or worse.
 
Just so many resources on narcs say how they are "kinky af", sex is lustful etc. Probably that's not true.
I have no idea. It's just when people say after abuse "you need to know what healthy sex looks like", I am like... well, what do you mean? Healthy as in not kinky?

Anyways, I decided personally to put sex aside because I cannot and am not ready to have it again after all emotional and sexual abuse.
 
Just so many resources on narcs say how they are "kinky af", sex is lustful etc. Probably that's not true.
I have no idea. It's just when people say after abuse "you need to know what healthy sex looks like", I am like... well, what do you mean? Healthy as in not kinky?

Anyways, I decided personally to put sex aside because I cannot and am not ready to have it again after all emotional and sexual abuse.

I'm sorry to hear things have been so rough, Sabrina, and I hope you find a path that works for you.

I just think that tarring all kink with that brush is a really bad slippery slope to go down. There are studies demonstrating that BDSM practitioners tend to be more mentally healthy than the general population, I just don't have time to dig them out at the moment.

It feels not cool to me to equate an entire community of people as being not healthy or ethical regardless of your experiences. That's no different to me than the people who say that all poly people are selfish or unhealthy because they've run into people who either incorrectly claimed the label or else just plain were selfish or unhealthy which had nothing to do with the poly.
 
Just so many resources on narcs say how they are "kinky af", sex is lustful etc. Probably that's not true.
I have no idea. It's just when people say after abuse "you need to know what healthy sex looks like", I am like... well, what do you mean? Healthy as in not kinky?

Anyways, I decided personally to put sex aside because I cannot and am not ready to have it again after all emotional and sexual abuse.

You sounded confused, but one clinical point is narcissists are wantonly promiscuous, not poly. They would not practice what we call ethical poly.

They're going to lie and break promises/boundaries, they have no empathy for anyone else, they're your best friend the day they meet you, glib and charming, and after a whilte Dr. Hyde comes out with fangs.

Sexual practices per se are not the diagnostic "switch" (on and off) for any type of personality disorder. Rather, it is a whole menu of abusive emotional practices from false flattery to inappropriate rage, selective memory, guilt-tripping, shaming, etc.

One type of abuser specializes in playing the servant role, like a fake preacher or killer nurse, lol. Another the Emotional Vampire, and etc. You have had experience with abuse and apparently need training in just recognizing decent people vs predators.

Your radar is on the blink, or rather you just aren't listening to it. You probably score pretty high on the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale, it is a ten question survey, real easy to take. I am a 5.

The problem that creates for a lot of us is that we imprint on the wrong thing, what seems familiar and comfortable to us is... abuse!

I wouldn't be thinking about sex at all unless I was first certain whoever I am engaging with isn't harmful to me. So you get to know them slowly, and see whether their word means anything, whether they demonstrate good virtues and show no vices a danger to you...
 
I think it's a good idea to step back and let yourself heal. This is no time to start a new relationship, especially one that requires the level of trust associated with BDSM. After a traumatic experience, one's bullshit detector is going to be turned up to 11. They will see red flags everywhere. Some will be true, some false. It will take time.

When reading articles I would research the authors a little bit. There is a tendency toward strong bias against kink in the vanilla world.
 
By narcissism (seriously, i find the term narc rather offensive and dehumanizing), you folks mean NPD?

It's not what you paint it. Its bad, but there are worse PDs, both from the perspective of others and the person. For example PAPD is usually the worst when it comes to life outcomes and, idk, BPD is worse for relationships.

Also, they are all on a scale. Sure, if someone has extreme NPD then... well, then they are very poor and suffering person. If someone is in the middle, they can easily hurt, but it's not like they are not completely unable to see anything.

TBH, i find the common online clickbaity articles how some type of person is soo toxic to be with... well, let's say i tend to come out with an impression that the person writing the article has huge problems and is not person i would want to be involved with (not because they wrote something like that, but because they almost invariably fail to see their role in the relationship with is basically the biggest flag ever for a lot of personality disorders, including narcistic)
 
I read the title as (narcissism and kink) vs (ethical poly), not that the author had anything per se against kink, but that they had had bad experiences with someone who happened to be both narcissistic and kinky?

TBH, i find the common online clickbaity articles how some type of person is soo toxic to be with... well, let's say i tend to come out with an impression that the person writing the article has huge problems and is not person i would want to be involved with (not because they wrote something like that, but because they almost invariably fail to see their role in the relationship with is basically the biggest flag ever for a lot of personality disorders, including narcistic)

I think there's a difference between not accepting your role in a relationship with someone with NPD, and wanting to avoid /know how to recognise such a relationship again. Whether you assign blame to someone with NPD or an enabler (and in my experience the trauma from such a relationship tends to go in one direction only), that type of relationship is still a toxic one :(
 
I think there's a difference between not accepting your role in a relationship with someone with NPD, and wanting to avoid /know how to recognise such a relationship again. Whether you assign blame to someone with NPD or an enabler (and in my experience the trauma from such a relationship tends to go in one direction only), that type of relationship is still a toxic one :(
One direction... perhaps, but it would be more accurate to say that people with such PDs are traumatized by basically everything.

What do you mean by enabler? In any case i would say that responsibility almost always (cases like children excluded) lies on both people in a dyad.

If someone wants to avoid certain type of people, more power to them. I am certainly no longer willing to get involved with people high on BPD scale myself...
 
An enabler is someone who allows a person with a PD to continue behaving in the way that their PD dictates. The enabler might have their own PD, they might have poor boundaries, or they might just be too forgiving or too naive to recognise signs of the PD. Yes it's important that this person works out how to avoid these types of relationships in the future and what characteristics they have that might make them susceptible, but I think it's a bit harsh to put responsibility on them for any suffering they might have endured during the relationship.
 
An enabler is someone who allows a person with a PD to continue behaving in the way that their PD dictates. The enabler might have their own PD, they might have poor boundaries, or they might just be too forgiving or too naive to recognise signs of the PD. Yes it's important that this person works out how to avoid these types of relationships in the future and what characteristics they have that might make them susceptible, but I think it's a bit harsh to put responsibility on them for any suffering they might have endured during the relationship.
Ah, i see, thanks (regarding the description of enabler)

Why do you think it's a bit harsh? (note that i put responsibility on both parties, btw - so i am unsure what do you mean since you said somewhat different and i don't know why?)
 
I really agree with what all of you say, that's why this is indeed my favorite forum. Because to be poly and to be good kinky, and be ethical on top of that makes you a very hard working person, doing a lot of inner work and caring about others, I believe!

Ugh, when I wrote this thread, I could not really articulate things. Magdlyn did it a lot for me, so I am grateful she wrote a post with the essence of the problem.

After this very narcissistic kinky abuse I suffered (I was tied up and intoxicated, taken pictures of and then told that the narcissist is leaving me), I was looking for the perfect sex dynamics that would make me feel safe. Now I just know - there is no sex dynamics that would make me feel safe right now. It felt like in sex always someone was dom or sub, top or bottom and I was annoyed, I was crazily annoyed at the idea of it. There is no equality in sex, there is always someone who dominates, even when it is you. I was like fuck! - I cannot explore my sexuality in any way because I trust nobody, I cannot believe anyone to do non-monogamy with... And I was angry.

Now I have accepted it. Now I look to it as people should earn my trust and really like me. I am ok with myself. I am not ok with other people stepping on my territory right now. I feel also a part of it is that as a woman, I was coached to always be ready for sex when people want it from me. Now, I start to chose myself and my needs first for the first time in my life.
 
You have the right idea sabrina. I encourage you to continue with that.
 
I really agree with what all of you say, that's why this is indeed my favorite forum. Because to be poly and to be good kinky, and be ethical on top of that makes you a very hard working person, doing a lot of inner work and caring about others, I believe!

Ugh, when I wrote this thread, I could not really articulate things. Magdlyn did it a lot for me, so I am grateful she wrote a post with the essence of the problem.

I'm so glad you got some confirmation from my experiences. It was a nightmare when it all came crashing down. Right after I dumped him, I had a vacation planned with my nesting partner and my son. Talk about a wasted vacation!

After this very narcissistic kinky abuse I suffered (I was tied up and intoxicated, taken pictures of and then told that the narcissist is leaving me), I was looking for the perfect sex dynamics that would make me feel safe. Now I just know - there is no sex dynamics that would make me feel safe right now. It felt like in sex always someone was dom or sub, top or bottom and I was annoyed, I was crazily annoyed at the idea of it. There is no equality in sex, there is always someone who dominates, even when it is you. I was like fuck! - I cannot explore my sexuality in any way because I trust nobody, I cannot believe anyone to do non-monogamy with... And I was angry.

Now I have accepted it. Now I look to it as people should earn my trust and really like me. I am ok with myself. I am not ok with other people stepping on my territory right now. I feel also a part of it is that as a woman, I was coached to always be ready for sex when people want it from me. Now, I start to chose myself and my needs first for the first time in my life.

You're making progress! Be good to yourself. :eek:
 
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