Finding a Unicorn: Grounds for a Threesome

hislittlekitten

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edit: Yes, I'm in a poly relationship with a man who has another partner. This question is indeed about threesomes and not about polyamory itself, but I ask here because I think the fact that he is a V blurs the fact that this threesome situation is different from poly and different rules need to be discussed.

Also, apologies for the word "unicorn" because apparently people don't like that. Sorry, borrowing from fet.

And apparently this isn't a good place to ask this question because you all are assuming that I'm confusing poly and swinging. I'm not. Please actually read what I'm saying.

.....original post:

I feel like this might be a good place to ask this question because 1) most searches for thoughts in this all assume a traditional couple, married or committed monogamously, and 2) I feel like lines can become blurred or thoughts or ideas regarding a threesome can become blurred people assumptions change in a polyamorous relationship.

So here's my question. What are your grounds for finding a unicorn? I mean, assuming you find one. Assuming you find a unicorn and you want to meet her, you want to play with her, you want to see where it goes. What kinds of ground rules do you have?

I ask because I am wary right now. I want this as badly as my partner does, but he's probably much more willing to dive in on this. Literally and figuratively.

Tonight he is meeting the girl we've been chatting with for a few weeks. She wants to meet with just him. He has just informed me that they won't be playing, which I had assumed (and I think he had assumed as well). I'm uncomfortable with them playing without me and I told him so. I'm glad they aren't going to play without me.

My concerns are, honestly, that she doesn't want a threesome and that she just wants to test my beau out as a Dom. That's my worst concern. I'm concerned she isn't interested in me. But I'm also concerned that this is not going to be set up... properly, if you will, because I'm being excluded from the very start. Is this unreasonable?

I realized that I think we need more structure to this. We do need more rules or agreements about what will happen with this threesome. It's been about four months since we started dating and it's already a lot to process, so I feel like we rushed this idea.

On top of that, he's also searching for a threesome with his other partner. Whatever, I don't really care, but the girl they've been talking to is associated with the girl we are talking to, and that's also something that makes me wonder if we need to talk about more structure (there's apparently been drama behind that - as in the girl they're talking to has expressed being uninterested in my beau's other partner, as well as me, and acts as if she's just looking to get with my beau). No, I won't get sexually involved with his other partner - honestly I don't find her attractive and the things I've gone through to find myself accepting of his poly relationship has included not feeling welcome or equally accepted by her, so that is absolutely out of the question.

Any thoughts or input would be great. If you've somehow found a unicorn and you had to set some rules, I'd love to know. Please spill.
 
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Well, constantly referring to her as a unicorn isn't exactly helping. And some people are probably going to jump your throat because of it.
May I suggest metamour/potential metamour. Or the classic Other Woman (OW), even though this one just makes it sound as bad as using unicorn with the current context.
 
Unicorns are mythical creatures that do not exist. The reason that the term "unicorn hunters" is used in poly lingo to describe couples looking for a bisexual chick to fuck and love them equally is because it illustrates what an impossible task it is to seek such an unrealistic fantasy. Additionally, calling a woman a unicorn is actually insulting because you objectify her by using that term. Also, polyamory is about having multiple loving relationships. If your focus is only on group sex, I don't know how poly even applies to your situation.
 
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I apologize for calling her a unicorn; it's not really meant to degrade her, and yes I see what you're saying. In other communities people don't mind using the word (namely fet).

But our agreement is that she isn't a metamour really. She IS just joining us for sex.

And yes, poly applies to our situation - as a relationship. If you read my initial post, I mention this. This isn't a poly-specific issue but it becomes relevant to poly because we are in a polyamorous relationship.

If it doesn't make sense to post this here then I'll delete it, but I figured I would ask. I think pretending that these sorts of issues don't happen in the poly community is silly. Sure it's not specifically poly - that we're searching for a threesome - but *because* our relationship is poly, I feel that we have different guidelines surrounding our relationship in the first place thus a different construct for introducing new things into our relationship. Such as this.
 
Sounds like swinging, not poly. Maybe you'll have better luck on a swinger site but I imagine most are couples looking for single women or are couples who finally compromised and opened up to other couples when they didn't find their "unicorn"
 
Sounds like swinging, not poly. Maybe you'll have better luck on a swinger site but I imagine most are couples looking for single women or are couples who finally compromised and opened up to other couples when they didn't find their "unicorn"

No, OUR RELATIONSHIP is poly. I have a metamour; he has another partner.

This situation - with the "unicorn," but apparently I shouldn't be saying that - is a situation in which we're bringing in a sexual partner that is strictly a sexual partner.

Pretty sure you've replied to me on the forum before. I am in a poly relationship.

I'm asking: as someone in a poly relationship, who is, with my partner, looking at a THREESOME that is NOT part of the poly construct - something that is outside of our poly agreements - what should I think about?

Already I'm seeing that we have to create different rules and understandings from what I'm used to with his other relationship.

What about what I'm saying isn't making sense?
 
Sounds like it's time to have a conversation. Tell him you think there needs to be more structure to the situation, and go from there.
 
No, we all understood you. And no, this is not FetLife.

It just sounds like you all need to communicate better to make sure everyone is on the same page. If you have to be there when they fuck and don't want them doing anything without you, and if they both agree to that, then it stands to reason that you should be a part of the planning process. But if they want to get it on without you, what then? Also, if you and your bf want her to know that your liaisons with this woman can only be casual and non-committal, then you all have to discuss that upfront. If you have concerns about anyone's motives, speak up and ask what they really want and hope for. It doesn't help you to be guessing and making up rules based on conjecture.

Personally, I feel that rules have no place in adult relationships where there is trust. If you tell your bf what you are comfortable with and not comfortable with, isn't that enough? Making up rules for other people to follow says that you simply do not trust them to be considerate enough to make choices that honor everyone's wishes -- and if someone wants to break rules, they will, so they are useless.

Perhaps you should slow down and wait to get involved sexually with this person until you know her better and there is a better level of trust among you - as well as clear communication and honoring of everyone's needs.
 
What about what I'm saying isn't making sense?

With your clarifications, your question is clear enough. I think part of the problem is that you are asking 'what rules should we put in place for this three way swinging-style hook-up' in a forum where not many people have experience of swinging-style hook ups. I could repeat things I've read elsewhere on the internet about how mono couples set things up, but I get the feeling you think that there should be different rules because you both already have experience with poly. I'm not sure that that's right.

I think most people planning a sex only three-way decide in advance on things like:
1) will this be a one-off event, or are we happy to repeat it if it goes well?
2) should we find a complete stranger, or proposition one of our friends? who is off limits? exes? previous play buddies?
3) what are our safe(r) sex boundaries?
4) once we've found someone who is interested, what sexual things are on or off the menu for us, and what sexual things are on or off the menu for her?
5) where will this encounter take place? Our? Hers? Somewhere neutral?
6) what is our exit strategy should feelings begin to develop?


Obviously, if you don't want more intense feelings to grow, maybe you limit yourselves to a one-off encounter with someone, and make that someone be an acquaintance or stranger. The safe-sex stuff is presumably something you've already discussed with your partner in the context of your V, but if this is a stranger and a one-off event, you might want to be more strict than you would with a regular partner. I think 6 is the key one to address here if you really are keen to keep this sex-only, as I imagine both you and your partner have a history of being able to form deeper connections with others, and that might require taking a real mental shift in how you approach this encounter. I'd say, generically, that you could increase your chances of not becoming attached by picking someone who lacks the traits you find desirable in a long-term partner, and being certain that she is also on the exact same page as you two before hooking up in terms of where this is leading. If she's someone you meet on sites you use to find poly friends, or you find her through your local poly-network, it will be especially important to clarify that this isn't what you are looking for at this time with her.

Does that make sense?
 
With your clarifications, your question is clear enough. I think part of the problem is that you are asking 'what rules should we put in place for this three way swinging-style hook-up' in a forum where not many people have experience of swinging-style hook ups.

LOL!! Oh, believe me, there are puh-lenty of members here who have that kind of experience. Plenty! At any given time you will see only a small percentage of the membership replying, so one cannot make assumptions about "most" of us being experienced in this, that, or anything else.

It's simply that this thread is focused on casual swinging-type NSA group sex issues rather than poly, but was posted to the Poly Relationships forum when it really isn't a poly problem. Posts there should be looking for "Help, Sharing, & Advice for Polyamorous relationships." Nor does it belong in General Poly Discussions,which is for "Discussions on Theory & Application of Polyamory." It's about threesomes and threesome etiquette. I've moved this thread to Fireplace, which is a more appropriate forum for it. It has more of a chance to attract more useful replies now, I believe.
 
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Hi hislittlekitten,

Re (from OP):
"What are your grounds for finding a unicorn?"

Grounds? Like, my reasons, justifications? Assuming "unicorn" means "the HBB who completes a relationship between a hetero man and a bi woman," I have no grounds for finding one; it's not my cup of tea.

If I was interested in MFF threesomes (on a regular basis), then I suppose that would be my grounds for finding a unicorn (if I could find one).

Re:
"What kinds of ground rules do you have?"

Ah.

Franklin Veaux has a helpful set of ground rules I could use: http://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html#bor ... so I would study those first, and follow those rules. But in general, the most important rule is that no one should objectify anyone else. We should all have empathy for each other as unique individuals who have unique wants and needs.

Re:
"I'm also concerned that this is not going to be set up ... properly, if you will, because I'm being excluded from the very start. Is this unreasonable?"

In the sense that you may be headed in a "non-unicorn direction," it's reasonable to think that's possible. But I hesitate to use the word "properly." There are a lot of good ways to conduct relationships, and a lot of good ways just to conduct poly relationships. There's no rule that says a poly relationship is supposed to follow an MFF triad/threesome pattern. Even if that's the only pattern you'd want to consider, there are lots of other patterns out there.

On the other hand, possible isn't the same as guaranteed, and the MFF triad you're seeking could easily come together in spite of your exclusion early in the game. There's no rules about that, I guess is what I'm saying. All is not lost if all three people don't do *everything* together.

Of course you can establish such rules, for your particular triad, if you feel it's important for you and all three people agree to it. I am of the impression that you feel you've been badly treated. If you can articulate your wants and needs, you can determine what rules and boundaries you need to make this work.

Re (from Post #6):
"I'm asking: As someone in a poly relationship, who is, with my partner, looking at a *threesome* that is *not* part of the poly construct -- something that is outside of our poly agreements -- what should I think about?"

It sounds like you already have (a?) poly partner/s, and this "unicorn" would be in addition to that: She would be a sexual partner but not a romantic partner.

There may be fewer rules for you if only sex is involved. Structure is generally optional and something for you to figure out for your specific situation. I do hold to my earlier statement that no one should objectify anyone else -- with a caution that objectifying is easier to do than one might think. At the least, one can easily give another person the (possibly erroneous) impression that they're being objectified. In fact if a "unicorn" is just a sex partner (and not a romantic partner), they're probably more likely to feel objectified.

I think tenK had some helpful things to say. I liked her six-item list of things to ask. Hopefully something in this post and/or thread overall will answer some of your questions.
 
LOL!! Oh, believe me, there are puh-lenty of members here who have that kind of experience. Plenty! At any given time you will see only a small percentage of the membership replying, so one cannot make assumptions about "most" of us being experienced in this, that, or anything else.

OK, I'll bite. I'm poly and I like three(and-more)somes. Not all people who are poly have experience with group sex (NSA or otherwise). And not all people who are open to group sex are poly (they may be swingers, for instance - who have rules about "no feelings").

When posting on the forums here, I make distinctions because I don't want anyone one to think that I think that they are one and the same. Similarly, I am also bisexual - but I make a distinction that I am poly and bisexual - not that I am poly because I am bisexual. If you can follow my gist here...

What I am hearing in this thread is that you feel/think that the "threesome" part needs more structure - more "rules". But I think that the issue is more about managing your (and other people managing their) expectations.

One approach is to discuss everyone's expectations and ideal situations and make agreements ("rules") as to what can and cannot happen. IF this...then THIS. ("If we find someone that is not interested in both of us...then it is a no-go for either of us." "If feelings start to develop...then we will break it off.") Problem, as I see it, is that a.) feelings can't be predicted/controlled OR b.) stuff happens and people want to renegotiate the "rules" mid-stream (i.e. mid-NRE) - and hurt feelings and drama ensue.

Back when I was studiously avoiding relationships, I had several "rules" myself. For instance: I wouldn't sleep with the same person more than three times - for fear they might become attached. I wouldn't sleep with a virgin - for fear they might become attached. I wouldn't sleep with someone who - had just broken up with someone...who was overly needy...who professed their "love" for me...etc.

These rules however applied to ME - what I would or wouldn't do. Other people made their choices, I made mine.

Nowadays, I am no longer actively avoiding relationships and my perspective has shifted somewhat (although "Don't fuck fragile." is a good all-around "rule" in my opinion). So, although I am careful to segregate the poly bits of me, the bisexual parts of me, the group-sex-having parts of me when posting on the forums; so as to avoid conflating them in general. In reality I am a bisexual-poly-threesome lovin' gal. And I don't really approach those things separately - I am a whole person.

So, I don't ever "look for" relationships of any sort - sexual, romantic, friendly or otherwise. I engage in interactions with interesting people and see where those interactions go. So, if one of us meets a girl (or boy) and they are interested in one(or more) of us, and it is mutual - Yay! If she wants to have a purely sexual relationships with one(or more) of us, and it is mutual - Yay! If she wants to form a romantic relationship with one (or more) of us, and it is mutual - Yay! (Back when it was just MrS and I we referred to this as "Lady's Choice".)

(I'll shut up now...been thinking about this recently, but will save it for a future post in my blog.)

JaneQ
 
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Hi Kitten,

So, to recap: you're in a LTR polyAMOROUS r'ship with your bf.

He has a gf.

You don't have another partner, male or female.

Your ambitious bf is trying to set up sex only threesomes with/for both you and his other gf, but you two women aren't attracted to each other, so he is fishing for HBBs for both of his metamours to have sex with, with him.

There are two women he has found, but turns out neither of them really want a threesome with another woman, they both just want him!

Tsk.

He's a busy man. He's got 4 women on the line. If he really wants sex-only threesomes, it seems to me he should pass on those 2 women who don't want sex with his gfs and only want him.

I'd recommend a reboot. Look for women who are definitely bisexual and definitely attracted to his gfs.

Now, for another question: what do you want? How bi are you? Are you interested in more love, to have a gf or bf for a love AND sex r'ship, or do you definitely only want to get down with your bf and another woman?

If it's the latter, hunt on Craigslist or at swinger's site and parties for a woman who wants EXACTLY what you are looking for. Don't settle for less. Warn her up front this is fun sex only, no feelings except merest friendship allowed. If love starts to develop, for any of you, it's ovah!
 
Hi everyone!

Thanks for the comments. I too believe that poly folks have had threesome experiences and look to keep them just sexual, not as relationships.

Thanks to those of you who dared to help with your comments and I'm glad you did. We did end up finding someone to mess around with, and it went ok; we haven't seen her since, kind of talk to her, but it probably is over for that purpose.

What we ended up doing was yes, discussing rules, but from that experience, we learned a lot about making sure we were secure with each other. Did we trust each other to stick to the plan? Did we enjoy seeing each other be pleased with another partner, right in front of our own eyes? We're in a V relationship and only recently have I met my metamour, so that may tell you a lot about how we separate ourselves out a little and keep the 'other' relationships separate. We've been together nearing 6 months, btw.

Thanks for the re-categorization info. That helps. I do kind of see it as a poly problem though because I felt like we were unsure how casual sex situations should be handled in a poly construct. Does that make sense?

Anyways, lessons learned: trust is still as important and reinforcing poly relationship practices within one's own relationship should not be neglected, but should not be used as a springboard for what the casual sex agreements happen to be. As I saw it, we had disagreements on how to go about casual sex because we had been living within a poly construct. Hrrrm, does that make sense?

Anyhow, thanks guys and gals!
 
Also - THIS was exactly what it ended up being and the questions that had to be asked. Thanks for this.

I did want a threesome, really enjoyed the one we had, and will be excited for another. It won't be with my metamour, that's for sure.

And we did enjoy getting down, purely sexual, no relationships, with another girl. So it will happen again.

Again... thanks!






Hi Kitten,

So, to recap: you're in a LTR polyAMOROUS r'ship with your bf.

He has a gf.

You don't have another partner, male or female.

Your ambitious bf is trying to set up sex only threesomes with/for both you and his other gf, but you two women aren't attracted to each other, so he is fishing for HBBs for both of his metamours to have sex with, with him.

There are two women he has found, but turns out neither of them really want a threesome with another woman, they both just want him!

Tsk.

He's a busy man. He's got 4 women on the line. If he really wants sex-only threesomes, it seems to me he should pass on those 2 women who don't want sex with his gfs and only want him.

I'd recommend a reboot. Look for women who are definitely bisexual and definitely attracted to his gfs.

Now, for another question: what do you want? How bi are you? Are you interested in more love, to have a gf or bf for a love AND sex r'ship, or do you definitely only want to get down with your bf and another woman?

If it's the latter, hunt on Craigslist or at swinger's site and parties for a woman who wants EXACTLY what you are looking for. Don't settle for less. Warn her up front this is fun sex only, no feelings except merest friendship allowed. If love starts to develop, for any of you, it's ovah!
 
Re (from hislittlekitten):
"As I saw it, we had disagreements on how to go about casual sex because we had been living within a poly construct. Hrrrm, does that make sense?"

I guess it depends on what the disagreements were?

In any case, I'm glad to hear things are working out well so far.
 
Re (from hislittlekitten):


I guess it depends on what the disagreements were?

In any case, I'm glad to hear things are working out well so far.


Thanks!

Well, I think what hindered us from being able to make rules about things were that we have only known poly (as a couple) and there was a mismatch of comparing what skills we have learned for poly we could apply to a different non-monogamous situation and what we couldn't. This is why I think this shouldn't just be dismissed as "confusing poly with casual sex" or anything. I've talked to some other poly couples - surprisingly some friends I didn't know were poly, then decided to close their relationship and look at other non-monogamous alternatives - and they also struggled with how to define rules when exploring casual sex and other non-monogamous setups.

The disagreements included things like, do we meet the girl the both of us, or let the girl meet just one of us first? We had issues when one girl was trying to meet just him, and then backed out of meeting the both of us. It was apparent to me that girls were just trying to get him in bed, not the both of us, and while initially he didn't suspect that, it turns out that I was right and they were not being honest about things. If they wanted to sleep with both of us, they would've met us both.

The levels of transparency of course should remain the same, but at which stages both people are involved with talking to others and how those dynamics happen taught me that yes, there is a reason swinger clubs exist and that the separations between swinging and the like are pretty clear and that they should be discussed thoroughly - and that the relationship skills that we have formed from a poly relationship were pretty important to reference (trust, negotiation) but were not the "starting point," if you will, for discussing casual sex in a threesome/swinging situation.
 
I actually think some of the questions about handling casual sex are similar to questions that sometimes arise on how to conduct one's poly affairs. The question of if (and when) a new partner should meet their metamour is a good example. Usually they say metamours should be friends, but I've heard from polyamorists who have/had no desire at all to ever meet their metamour/s (and others who rather dislike their metamour/s and could never be friends with them).

The main difference I see polyamory (read: its popular culture) having on casual sexual affairs is that because we emphasize communication so much in so many poly discussions, it's more likely that polyamorists will communicate as much/well as needed, about what they want and what would work for them, than say, stereotypical monogamists making their first foray into nonmonogamy.

Incidentally, this thread is on the Fireplace board and as such, isn't required to relate to polyamory. So while I agree that it does relate to polyamory, I consider that extra credit.
 
I actually think some of the questions about handling casual sex are similar to questions that sometimes arise on how to conduct one's poly affairs. The question of if (and when) a new partner should meet their metamour is a good example. Usually they say metamours should be friends, but I've heard from polyamorists who have/had no desire at all to ever meet their metamour/s (and others who rather dislike their metamour/s and could never be friends with them).

The main difference I see polyamory (read: its popular culture) having on casual sexual affairs is that because we emphasize communication so much in so many poly discussions, it's more likely that polyamorists will communicate as much/well as needed, about what they want and what would work for them, than say, stereotypical monogamists making their first foray into nonmonogamy.

Incidentally, this thread is on the Fireplace board and as such, isn't required to relate to polyamory. So while I agree that it does relate to polyamory, I consider that extra credit.

Haha, fair.

Yes, and as someone who only recently met a metamour, I am more on the side of not really being friends with my metamour. I like her personality, I think she's rather nice, but I don't really think I can ultimately get over the way I've been treated in a way that would enable a friendship. I can function without thinking about how I was treated, but if for any reason more things come up, I won't be forgetting the ways I feel that I've been undermined.

Sucks, but I guess that is how things work out sometimes.
 
Can I ask, was it a former metamour who treated you badly, or the present one we're talking about (L?), or ...

If it was a former metamour, then, there may be some hope of warming up to this present metamour, eventually. But if this present metamour was the one who treated you badly, well, then, no wonder you're not feeling the love.
 
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