Gender-Neutral Pronouns?

The thing I don't like about the gender-neutral pronouns is that, unlike the singular use of 'they', they tend to pull me out of the context of whatever I'm reading. Unless the use of the pronoun is germane to the context, I find them to be distracting.

But then... I'm easily distracted.
..oooo... Junior Mints!
 
Yes, I agree that gender-neutral pronouns tend to be distracting. Because they're so "alien" to us. They seem alien. So it's like, "Relationship relationship relationship ... Oh look, an alien planet! ... Relationship relationship ..." but by this time, it's that planet our attention is fixed on. D'ope! What can you do?

I have to say though, that I sometimes find he/she (and himself/herself) distracting too if there's a big pile of them in just a few sentences. I'm not sure the distraction can always be prevented (not for me anyhow). What's the least-distracting way to address an inevitably-distracting block of text?

And there's one other problem: people who don't want to be thought of as "he or she." Some people feel that they're neither he nor she, and thus they want a pronoun that sidesteps gender altogether. Do we honor the wish of such persons, or do we maintain that they're asking us to clutter up the language beyond what is seemly?

I admit I personally don't often encounter that last problem. But then, I don't know a lot of genderqueer people and don't talk about them often. Maybe other people encounter that dilemma more often than I do.

And I've often recommended the "they" solution, and often still do, but we did have a post recently (sorry, I forget where) where the use of "they" did confuse the singular and plural and thus confused the whole gist of the post. People couldn't tell who was doing/feeling/thinking what (and to whom). It was bad enough that several people posted subsequent complaints about it. So I submit that "they" doesn't always work as a solution, though it certainly works in many cases.

I do by the way consider "they" to be a gender-neutral pronoun -- even a singular one -- in the right context. It's just not nearly as *alien* as stuff like xe and hir.
 
And I've often recommended the "they" solution, and often still do, but we did have a post recently (sorry, I forget where) where the use of "they" did confuse the singular and plural and thus confused the whole gist of the post. People couldn't tell who was doing/feeling/thinking what (and to whom). It was bad enough that several people posted subsequent complaints about it. So I submit that "they" doesn't always work as a solution, though it certainly works in many cases.

Agreed, however, some of that can be fixed with better wording altogether. :)
 
Hmmm, wish I could remember where the post in question is -- I think it would be a hard one to fix.

Seems like it was a situation where "he/she" wouldn't have been an option either because the person being spoken of had a gender identity that was too vague for that.

Found it. Yay!

Yeah there were multiple compositional problems there, not just the overuse of "they." Single-letter nicknames added to the confusion. "They" usually referred to a person named "B," and "B" could have often been used instead of "they." That would have helped.

But yeah there were a few complaints about it, including the following:
"Nicknames instead of initials would be helpful here, as would not calling a single individual 'they' because that makes me assume you're talking about more than one person. If you feel you need a gender neutral pronoun at least choose something singular."

Not 100% sure why the OP's pronouns had to be gender-neutral. I think that for some reason she did not want to commit to a specific gender for the person "B" she was talking about. Could have been a way to avoid stating her orientation? I-I'm not sure. She said it was a habit, but I don't know if that's really the whole explanation.

There was even an issue with using any pronouns at all, for even if "they" was understood to be singular there was still a question of whether person "A" or person "B" was being referenced. Badly-composed OP, I can't deny it.

And that post/thread was then what motivated me to initiate this thread. Thing is, I have often run into my own difficult writing situations where I couldn't decide what pronoun would be clear without being awkward. Situations where repeated use of the corresponding proper noun would have been awkward and well, awkward is distracting as we've noted.
 
"They" in a singular sense can be really confusing; I'm sure I know exactly which post Kevin is referring to. I also find it disruptive to be constantly reminded that the gender is being deliberately obscured. It gives off a weird distrust vibe.

I also find all the alternate pronouns rather distracting. My preference is s/he because it's the fastest, but that has an implication of gender unknown, rather than "I'm not telling".

Seems to me that "it" is a perfectly reasonable gender neutral pronoun that we're all familiar with already. To me, calling a person "it" isn't any weirder than using "Zie"
 
LOL, yeah but I have a feeling some people would kind of dislike being called "it." LOLOL ...

In junior high/middle school, we did avoid girls like the plague and called them "carbon units." In that case, the "it" pronoun was quite appropriate. :)

But then we all turned around and got married. D'oh! How could we be so foolish? :D

I agree it is somewhat off-putting when someone seems to want to hide a gender for some reason. It's like, "What's with the cloak-and-dagger routine?" I think some people are overly paranoid when they post on a public forum (though perhaps I swing too far the other way and share too much).
 
I use 'they' as a gender neutral pronoun in my writing, in keeping with the way English has been used for the past five centuries or so. (Yes, seriously, the gender neutral they is not a new thing, it's been in use since Chaucer. Here is my handy-dandy, bookmarked reference that I've been whipping out in these conversations for over five years: http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

Excerpt:
Suppose you were reading and came to the following line:

“She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes.”

Would you …
(a) continue reading, because that’s a perfectly acceptable sentence, or
(b) throw a tantrum and insist that the author is an imbecile speeding the wholesale destruction of the English language?

If you’re a regular reader of this blog, you’re probably answering (a). If you’re answering (b), I regret to inform you that you hate the writing of C. S. Lewis.​
)

In speaking of or to a gender neutral individual, I use the pronoun they prefer. Yes, this is awkward sometimes. Yes, I sometimes find myself going "Ey, em, zir, er... Sie!" And then I remember Bill Cosby's routine about being a parent and laugh.
 
No, I heard that Shakespeare used the singular "they" (e.g. themself) pronoun too. So even though it's not officially okayed (that I know of), it has plenty of respectable precedence.

It's just that situations can arise when the reader can't easily tell that "they" is meant in the singular sense -- the pronoun's only weakness. In those few cases, I find myself resorting to other stuff. He/she if I can. Xe if s/he (e.g. him/herself) will get overly cluttered.

My whole litmus test is, "What's going to get the reader through this text the fastest and most efficiently, without distracting them [heh -- them] or getting on their nerves?" I usually feel I can get away with a brief lapse into "xe/hir" if I don't make a big deal of it.

In spoken language, I'm pretty sure I've always found a way to make "they" work. [shrug] So maybe I'm just not trying hard enough when I write? I don't know. I think if I attemped xe/hir in vocal communication, it would really cause confusion. Not sure most English speakers are ready for that yet.
 
It's been officially ok'd by several experts (also included in the above link) and as far as confusion, we deal with confusion over the plural vs. singular 'you' every day, and no one has any trouble with it, so the idea that confusion caused by a singular 'they' causes insurmountable confusion doesn't make sense.
 
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Maybe we're so used to making "you" work that we just don't even notice? Humans can certainly be creative when called upon. And as I said, I must be used to making "they" work when I speak aloud because I don't even remember having any trouble with that. Maybe when I write I find it tempting to use these "cool" alternate tools when I don't really have to. Somehow I manage to convince myself that I do have to! ("Well I want it! Well I need it! Well I got-ta got-ta got-ta got-ta have it!")

I'm wondering if "you yourself" and "you guys" are examples of phrases we use to clarify "you" when needed. I don't think I've ever used "they themself," but I've used "those guys" before (when talking out loud).
 
Cool idea (okay I think it's cool): When you need to use a generic pronoun, defer to your own gender (of identity). "If a person wants to succeed at poly, he should brush up on his communication skills," is what I'd write, since I identify as a male. Someone who identified as a female would write, "If a person wants to succeed at poly, she should brush up on her communication skills." What a genderfluid person would write might depend on what gender s/he felt like identifying as at the given moment.

So what do y'all think of my great idea? :) I know, it wouldn't always work, and then you could use "sie" or "they" or whatever. But whenever you could use it, it would be quick, handy, and obvious, and while the gender of the generic person you were writing about wouldn't be identified per se, the gender of the author (i.e. you) would be denoted by your choice of pronoun.

If *everyone* tended to defer to that rule of thumb, it'd tend to be simple, easy, and equitable. Amirite?

[shrug] Sigh, ah well, sounded like a good idea. (I'll do it if everyone else does. :cool:)
 
It's funny... I tend to default to "they" and not my own gender. Dunno why, but it's my "go-to" gender-neutral pronoun. Plurality be damned.
 
They're everywhere! Literally. :)
 
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