What Do You Make of Jesus?

What do you believe about Jesus? Check all that apply.


  • Total voters
    51
Here's one link that explains some of it: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godles...atheists-defense-of-the-historicity-of-jesus/

*I* don't have historical evidence. I'm not a historian. I have read books and discussions in which historians have said a teacher existed who fits what we know of Jesus. NOT "son of god". Just a teacher, like who knows how many other teachers, but one whose teachings caught people's attention. Kinda like cult leaders in some ways, but maybe not as damaging.

To accumulate all the sources in which I've seen this mentioned would probably take me the rest of the year, because I've seen it in things I've read as long ago as college. But I'm not asserting that there's historical evidence for Jesus Christ the Son of God and Messiah to have existed. I'm saying that in a number of sources, I have read that there is historical evidence that a *man* fitting the descriptions of the general life and teachings of Jesus existed.

Best Friend is Jewish, and says that he was taught Jesus existed, but as a Rabbi, not a messiah.
 

That's nothing but a couple of quotes from Pauline letters, saying he received this or that about Jesus. He received things from visions of Jesus. He received things from his pagan culture about dying and rising gods, and the bread sharing and wine drinking traditions of grain and grape gods. I thought you had extra-biblical evidence.

*I* don't have historical evidence. I'm not a historian. I have read books and discussions in which historians have said a teacher existed who fits what we know of Jesus...

To accumulate all the sources in which I've seen this mentioned would probably take me the rest of the year, because I've seen it in things I've read as long ago as college.

Oh well. So much for your argument then! You might want to read The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, by Robert Price. It clearly demonstrates that even the Jesus Seminar, which determined that 18% of things written about Jesus by Paul and in the gospels are historically accurate, is hopelessly optimistic.

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Sh...=8-1&keywords=incredible+shrinking+son+of+man

Review from Amazon:

Robert Price is amazing. A true treasure. This is his best work yet. He clearly, steadily guides us through the entire Christian scriptures and shows how nearly everything in them is a plagiarism from either Old Testament, Jewish apocrypha, or Greek mythology. He goes through Jesus' "life" story -- exposing it as nearly all myth and fiction as opposed to fact. He goes through the miracles, John the Baptist, etc., etc., and his breadth of knowledge is truly astounding.
What is nice is that he just isn't writing this to debunk and deconstruct. Rather, he helps illuminate much about early Christianity. By sifting through the myth-making, the contradictions, and the plagiarisms, he helps paint a fascinating picture of what the early theological and political struggles of early Christianity must have entailed.
The bottom line is that the story of Jesus is clearly and undoubtedly myth and fiction, and this book is perhaps THE BEST at revealing that. Every page is loaded with information and evdience. And Price isn't out to prove that Jesus never existed (like Wells or Doherty). He takes a more humble/realistic approach: Jesus may or may have not existed, we'll never know, but what we do know is that the New Testament is clearly fiction/myth. That is beyond a doubt. This book lays it all out.

Best Friend is Jewish, and says that he was taught Jesus existed, but as a Rabbi, not a messiah.

*shrug*
 
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I wasn't aware I was having an argument; I simply stated, based on things I have read over a couple of decades, that there is historical evidence for the existence of Jesus as a human being. That is what I have read in more than one source, and that was all I said.

If you've read evidence to the contrary, then that's what you've read. I'm not disputing it. I haven't read the same things you have, though I appreciate your inclusion of the book you've read.

My reference to Best Friend was simply because you mention that Jews say Jesus was not son of God, while Christians say he was; I was actually agreeing with your point by stating that someone I know who is Jewish was taught that Jesus was only a teacher, not the son of God.
 
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It's Personal

Talking about my relationship with Jesus is much like talking about my relationship with my wife. Unless you know her intimately like I do your opinion of her isn’t valid. She isn’t a theory, she is real. Just like Jesus is to me.

My relationship with Jesus started when I was 12. At that time in my life I didn’t feel any need for a savior. I did have a deep need to find a place to be alone in peace and in love.

My interaction with all of you has helped me to continue to move away from the spirit of the anti-Christ. I think many of you are closer to the truth and to Christ’s Spirit than you realize.

What continues to fascinate me is the people who claim they don’t believe Jesus is God do a better job of obeying His command to love one another than those who claim to be His followers.

Jesus single handedly brought the evolution of man to a screeching halt. We are fast approaching the time in our human history where women will be equal to men. It was His intention from the beginning that we men and women would act as one.

The only way for any of us to find out if Jesus is God, who He claimed to be is if we go to Him privately and ask Him if He’s real and to reveal Himself to you.

I ask my wife everyday if her love for me and my love for her is intact. I do the same with Jesus.

So far, so good but learning to love my enemies, repay evil with good, forgive, live in forgiveness, love myself, love my neighbor, give the shirt off my back, lay down my life for my best friend my wife and most of all understanding and accepting that anyone who would crucify me or anyone else who tells them they love them is not in their right mind, continues to be a challenge.

Could it be that we are rejecting the spirit of the anti-Christ?

My deepest desire is that we all love and are loved, deeply, intensely, honestly forever.
 
Thank you for your input loveboston.

Re:
"What continues to fascinate me is the people who claim they don't believe Jesus is God do a better job of obeying His command to love one another than those who claim to be His followers."

I agree, that is often the case. Although I do know some believing Christians who are sincere about wanting to love as Jesus did.

Re:
"We are fast approaching the time in our human history where women will be equal to men."

I hope that's true. We do seem to be moving in that direction.

I told my youngest brother a little about this poll and thread, and has sent me his thoughts and comments on the subject. I asked his permission to reprint what he said, and he said that would be okay.

Here's what he said:
"I thought your poll and post on this was pretty interesting. Personally I think Jesus elevated his consciousness to a very high level. I think he was an enlightened being. He taught forgiveness instead of blame or judgment. He taught love instead of hate. He taught mercy instead of justice. Those are very enlightened concepts -- ones we'd do well to learn today. I do not think of him as deity like many religions do. I see him as enlightened. I believe you and I can receive the same enlightenment."

Just wanted to share that.
 
Spiritual Intimacy

I am an extreme introvert. Exploring the rationale of my emotional feelings is a lot of fun for me. Understanding and having appropriate behavior is the hoped for outcome.

My spirit, my essence, the deepest part of me that is a child in his most private, secure place has been raped. I have been raped both physically and spiritually. By someone who claimed to be an official representative of Jesus. There was no second incident of rape but there were multiple attempts and constant harassment.

Therapy has taught me that my introversion leads some men, and women to believe that I am a good target to victimize. At one point in time I was thought to be physically attractive.

Fortunately my introversion alleviates my need for socialization.

I do enjoy spiritual intimacy.

I am as straight when it comes to spiritual intercourse as I am when it comes to physical intercourse. A personal preference. As one tends to lead to the other.

Having spiritual intimacy for me is the process of letting go of anything that prevents me from loving myself and the person I’m with. The climax is agreeing with my partner that our greatest desire is that we continue to love and care for each other and hoping the same for every living creature that has or ever will exist.

I think this is what Jesus commanded me to do. Any so called god or their representative who tells me to do something different gets a deaf ear.

If I charged for my time I am a commodity as opposed to an intimate friend.

I think this is what Jesus commanded me not to do and to see it as being the root of all evil.

Paying for spiritual intercourse by way of buying books, tapes, honorariums and affording other’s their costs for travel expenses and housing allowances hasn’t worked for me.

Charging a fee or paying to get spiritually raped is insane. For me anyway.
 
I am sorry to hear you were assaulted and harassed by a spiritual advisor. That is just the worst.
 
Forgiveness

Thanks, Magdlyn.

I finally stopped retaliating about 6 years ago but not without a lot of help from my very kind therapist who as it turns out had a similar experience.

At least I've stopped any notion I've had that I would find a girlfriend at church. (Looking for love in all the wrong places :) )

I'm sure all of the women that attend are thankful for that, too.
 
Well, I have to believe that you'll find the right person for you eventually. I'm sorry to hear that things have gone quite badly in the past.

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
-- Matthew 18:1-6

If there is a God, He must be angry indeed when a child is violated.
 
Thanks kdt26417.

I have a wonderful wife who shares my faith in Jesus. She’s enjoyed a 5 year romance with someone who has become an important friend for both of us.

I’ve dated but I don’t know what’s more difficult. Finding a woman friend open to the idea of dating a married man who believes in Christ or a woman who believes in Christ being able to date a married man.

I shared my experience to explain why my relationship with Jesus has been so important to me. Jesus experienced far worse. His response to abuse was to forgive. It took a very long time for me to realize that if I didn’t face up to the fact that what had happened to me was evil and forgive I would run the risk of becoming abusive.

My belief in Jesus is very personal and I am trying very hard to learn to not be a jerk if someone doesn't have the same opinion.
 
That makes sense. And I'm glad you do have someone in your life, even if you'd prefer more than one someone. Who knows? Anything's possible.

I know we don't have a lot of forum members here who share the depth of belief you have in Jesus; that's why I was glad when I saw you had voted and added some of your thoughts and feelings about it.

I think it's important for us all to be extra diplomatic when talking about as hot a topic as religion is. Thank you for working with me in that regard.
 
The poll did reveal that there are several others who are both poly and believers.

That was nice.

Proving the existence of Jesus has become of little interest to me.

But I do like reading what other people think of Him.
 
Yes, I agree, it was a pleasant surprise to see how many forum members had faith in Jesus to profess. Heh, there was even one vote for Jesus suffering for our sins in Gethsemane, which is a Mormon doctrine. Just goes to show, you may be a polyamorist, but that doesn't mean you're an atheist.

I think it would be hard to prove the existence of the divine Jesus, and it would be hard to disprove. Obviously everyone has enough evidence to sway them one way or the other, but that's not the same as 100% proof. We could argue all day about who's right, the believers or the unbelievers, but I'd rather just have a civil discourse where we can talk about our beliefs in an accepting environment.

So far I think that's what we have, and I'm glad that we have it.
 
This is a stimulating conversation.

Regardless of our belief about the existence or divinity of Christ much of our common law and the vast majority of our criminal code are derived from the Protestant church and to a lesser degree Catholic dogma. The Mormon church was forced to alter their beliefs and conform.

There is little doubt in my mind that the regulation of our sexual behavior isn’t derived from what Jesus was believed to have said in the book of John or other writings believed to be accurate by the church.

When my wife and I both realized that we were open to having other intimate friendships it was the most important element that caused us to be open about our attitude towards all of our behavior, not just our sexuality.

Before we acted on our decision we met with a therapist, trained in dealing with non-traditional relationships. We wanted to be certain that my pathology and my wife’s lack of early childhood religious instruction wasn’t leading us to making a tragic error.

We both cheated in our prior marriages and we believed that by being open we were not being adulterous. But we did need a standard to follow.

Jesus is clear that adultery destroys marriages. Jesus is also clear that sexual immorality is forbidden.
Immoral means illegal.

If I went to court and asked for a divorce on the grounds that my wife had cheated on me the court would be prejudiced by the fact that my wife broke her vow. Common law would prevail and sympathy derived because of an immoral act.

If the court discovered that I had agreed to an open marriage it would destroy any claim of prejudice.

If I rape there is no defense in criminal court other than insanity but I’d still be convicted of an immoral act.

Jesus went further and said that if we repeatedly demand something of another person sexually that the object of our desire doesn’t agree to we are being immoral.

The courts have set standards that uninvited sexual advances violate civil and criminal statutes.

If I agree that Christ sets my standard for human interaction I must follow His clear command to love my neighbor as myself. I must also adhere to civil and criminal statutes that govern my interpretation of that command.

So I’m right back to the same place of not pushing my spiritual beliefs on someone who has told me they’re not interested in the same way that I must not push my sexual beliefs on someone who I know isn’t interested. I think current common and criminal law agrees.

I only wish I had met my wife when I was 30 instead of 50. And I wish we had discovered our attitudes about having other intimate relationships when we first met rather than when I turned 61.

As time goes on this is less of a philosophical discussion than it is the reality that a 66 year old married man who with his therapist’s guidance steers clear of looking for anyone younger than 60 to date has an uphill battle.
 
It saddens me to admit that all of us will pass away sooner or later, and what's in the past is forever out of our reach. We can only do our best with the here and now, and hope our future will be a little longer than expected.

I think you have exercised caution and care so as to not just race into polyamory on a whim. Many newbies are all too eager to dive in and end up with a lot of drama on their hands.

The idea that immoral and illegal are synonymous is strange to me. Sure I know they're supposed to be synonymous, and sometimes they are, but other times there's some really strange laws on the books. Certainly it's wise to be aware of what the laws are, and choose a path with that in mind.
 
Cupid

It would be interesting to ask the question, "how has religious belief influenced our ability to love"?

Jesus has had a positive impact on mine. For a lot of people this isn't true. It doesn't seem to matter if they believe He's God or that he's a mystical figure like Cupid.

His closest friend who thought He was God said God is Love.
 
I only have what is leftover from the membership I used to have in the Mormon church. That church teaches that we are all brothers and sisters to each other, and culturally speaking, a handshake is not a mere handshake, but an emblem of kinship. "I recognize you as a brother or sister to me." It is very literal in that it speaks of a pre-existence before any of us were born, when we were all spirit children of God (that is, of Heavenly Father).

I am a Mormon no longer, but on some level I think I retain a sense of kinship with other people, and I still think of a handshake as a sacred emblem of kinship. Perhaps in some way my upbringing makes me care more about getting along with everybody? It's not so easy for me to say, "Screw you, you're just some stranger on the internet." In my heart, I still feel like everyone is a brother or a sister to me. Which makes it weighty and depressing to cut anyone off, even though I've had to do it on rare occasion.
 
loveboston, what is your therapist's idea behind only seeking people who are at most 6 years younger than you? My gf is 22 years younger than me and we get along SO well. Almost 6 years of r'ship and hardly any conflict ever.

I am not a good partner for you. I am "only" 59 so your therapist wouldn't approve. Plus I don't "believe in" Jesus. I don't think "God" singled out one man to be his fleshy representative on earth. We are all gods. Or none of us are. Life just doesn't work that way!

Somehow a single god-man, out of all the previous god-men and goddess representatives humans have honored (including the last 3 leaders of North Korea), is suddenly the "correct" son of God, or God himself? Huh? The idea that a human is a god, like a Pharaoh or Roman Emperor was believed to be, with a divine right to rule over all, seems so archaic and magical thinking based.

Even if this god-man Jesus has died, he is still our ruler, because some words from a collection of antique hagiographies say so?

The words and concepts in the Gospels, Pauline letters and other NT writings can't agree on who or what he is or was. Glossing them all together is dishonest.

If you want to choose to be a Johannine Christian, whose theology is unique and differs wildly from Markan Christianity, be specific. Say, "The Gospel of John, the 'high' theology appeals to me. Mark is too simplistic and leaves us hanging at the end of the story. Paul was crazy. Revelation is like a bad acid trip." It bugs me when you say, I am a Christian, I talk to Jesus and he tells me he is god. You're just as crazy as Paul if that is the case!
 
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Timothy Leary is Dead

I don’t know what a trained counsellor licensed by the Commonwealth would advise us if we dated but who knows she might make an exception.

What my therapist recommends for me might not be what she would recommend for someone else. I can’t speak for her when it comes to your or anyone else’s situation. Personally I’m very happy for you that you are living in a love relationship.

This points out the danger of sharing our most intimate thoughts and feelings with strangers who have distinctly different experiences with a variety of triggers. I don’t know what comes to your mind when I mention the frog pond. My ex hated the place but my wife can’t get enough of it.

I can fully accept your rejection of Christ even if you think He’s a fantasy of my imagination. It doesn’t change my opinion of you. I am sapiosexual like so many Bostonians who have been surrounded by and immersed in a sea of intellectual growth and development. California, not so much.

However, if you’re a Yankees fan, we do have a problem that even Big Poppy can’t remedy.

Although I must admit that it might have been one too many acid trips that knocked me off center and isolation does make me crazy.

John on the other hand claims to have had a personal relationship with Jesus. John is an eye witness, or so the story goes.

If I was a detective the first person I would interview is the person who loves you. Before I came to a conclusion about you I would want to be as empathetic as possible.

I do talk to Jesus but unlike Paul I can’t think of a single epiphany that I would dare point to as an example of Jesus talking to me. Just ask my wife, she’d laugh with you.

Who unlike Paul’s wife is encouraged to speak her mind wherever and whenever she chooses so long as she’s loving and considerate of the members of her audience who adore her. Which includes me when I’m with her.

I sincerely believe that any organization or institution that does not allow a woman to hold its highest office or position is doomed.

I also believe that any woman who doesn’t treat men as equals knowing full well that in many ways women are far superior will fail.

Our so called government wouldn’t be open for business if it wasn’t for the women in our congress having the ability to fashion a compromise that is considerate of everyone’s point of view.

I do appreciate you telling me what “bugs” you about me and why. I have a lot to learn. :(
 
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