Super-new, Exploring (long)

RainLevity

New member
Hi. I'm new here. We are new to this & are working out whether it's going to work as well in practice as we hope it does in theory. I just posted an intro thread, so here's the long story. Sorry for the book (that's my style).

My husband & I have been married (nearly) 20 years, and are the strongest, happiest, most stable couple we know. Seriously. Our friends all actually tell us we are the couple they look up to. And they're right- we have it all. But we both kinda want more. Not that we aren't satisfied with one another- we totally are, and could stay as we are. And if changing things will screw up what we have (in a bad way), we won't do it. Because it's great. The sex is great, the relationship is great. We are really happy together. But part of the reason we're happy together is that we are truly open & honest with one another- about our desires, our needs, our fantasies. And we are both willing to learn & grow & explore together.

Our first introduction to poly was through erotic novels many years ago, actually. I got into a kick of reading erotica, and found a few that featured polyamory that really turned me on. I showed them to hubby, who agreed that they were hot. And so we started a little fantasy about it. Sometimes the stories were bi, and sometimes not, but it built until we started talking about the idea & looking into what poly was, how it worked IRL, what the issues were, etc. The idea of actual polyamory seems right to us both (not just for the sex). Additionally, we both realized that we're bisexual. And years later, we're still interested in the poly idea- maybe even the practice, but we're taking it REALLY slowly.

I'm a person who researches incessantly. Like, really. I have a doctorate, and am thinking of going back for a second- I like research that much. So, naturally, I have been researching the hell out of this idea. I see the pitfalls, and the benefits. Instinctively, I really think that given my 'druthers, this is how I'd like to live- with more than one person to make my village & fill the needs that arise. However, we're raising 3 beautiful kids, and it's a really big gamble to bring strangers into our lives at all, and it just seems too unlikely that it could be worth the substantial risk to seek this out (right now). I'm not willing to risk my kids at all, and I'm not interested in the idea of "dating" anyone new.

So, we put this idea on the back burner & just pretty much used it as fantasy material the last few years. Fast forward. Now we've moved to Europe, and we have these friends who live here near(ish) us. We went to college with the husband, and they are childless (intentionally). In the States, these friends had some swinger parties with a group of people (it was a large, but closed group). We were busy having babies at the time, and weren't involved at all.

Now, however, we are considering trying to go down some kind of poly road with these people. They are our best friends. It's rather long & complicated, but the wife has become close with my hubby (they're very much alike, personality-wise), and the husband has been his bestie forever, & I have some similarities with them both & consider them both my best friends. The wife (let's call her Shell) is decidedly bi. The husband (call him Ivan) is bi-curious. My husband (Tom) is bi-curous, and I recently came to the conclusion I'm bi when Shell & I had a wild, fun night together, not long after a little icebreaker with the 4 of us playing "drunk truth or dare" in our basement.

So, here's the thing- Tom & I spend a lot of time talking about things. We talk about the "what ifs" of every scenario we can dream up. We also discuss what we'd like to happen, what we'd be able to live with happening, as well as where we'd each draw the line. Ultimately, we'd LIKE it if this relationship went down a truly polyamory road that led to co-habitation, and a pretty equal quad relationship. I'm good with any sexual scenario I can think of, and so is Tom. We both feel like we have compersion (what a great word) about the whole thing, but not having actually experienced much more than the FF thing, it's just speculation at this point.

These people are our best friends- and we all came to Europe basically together, and have been through significant shit together, being each other's confidants. While our marriage is rock solid, theirs is somewhat wobbly. Ivan cheated during the time between Shell moving here & him finding his own way over. She knows about the infidelity, and they're working through it. But they both have abandonment issues and some insecurities, though they do seem to both be really good with the idea of at least swinging with us & we are all really close in pretty much every way. They both have some sexual needs that aren't being fully met currently, too, which may play into this. I think we might start things off by just doing a "friends only" or closed-group swing with them, and then see what happens.

As we discuss it, we are questioning if it's a good idea to even go there with them due to their relationship instabilities. However, I keep going back to the possibility that we might be the stability they each need to feel comfortable/secure and happy. Am I deluding myself? I know that Shell has some emotional needs related to stability that Ivan isn't meeting, partly because of his own attachment issues- and I feel like I could maybe help meet those needs, and Tom, too. Then Ivan would be somewhat off the hook for bearing the whole thing alone. Is this overly optimistic on my part? Shell & I have talked about the possibility of Ivan & I hooking up to fulfill some of his sexual needs- and she seems cool with the idea. I know that without actually knowing us all, it's impossible to say. I'm just hoping some people with a bit more experience can chime in & give us some advice or share their experiences. I have spent significant time researching (lurking) here & reading everything I can find that might be anything like our situation. Honestly, nobody seems to have started out quite as rock stable as Tom & I are. Are there others? Anybody have experience starting a quad with best friends that worked out (or didn't & there's something to learn from it)? I'd love to learn more & hear others' POV and ideas!

And if you read that entire, long-ass thing, thanks! I tend to be long-winded. ;)
 
Hi Rain,

I don't see any immediate problems with your plans and intentions, not that I can guarantee that things would go well with a quad, just that it seems to be as good of an idea as any. My only reservation would be to advise you to take it slow. For example, don't try to leap into poly all at once. Try a swinging relationship with Ivan and Shell, and see how that goes. You're already close friends with them, so with the swing element added that's almost poly already. No need to rush things.

I hope that's of some help, and that you'll continue to post as your situation evolves. Hopefully others will chime in, and I'll have more thoughts/advice to give in the future.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
First -- good for you! Thinking, planning and not just leaping into things. That's refreshing to hear for a change. Someone coming along as a “look before I leap” person.

As we discuss it, we are questioning if it's a good idea to even go there with them due to their relationship instabilities.

While our marriage is rock solid, theirs is somewhat wobbly. Ivan cheated during the time between Shell moving here & him finding his own way over. She knows about the infidelity, and they're working through it. But they both have abandonment issues and some insecurities,

GOOD. You see the red flag and you are doing the SWOT analysis. Because poly isn't magically "cheater proof." Ivan could make new poly agreements and cheat on those. Or any of you, really. The strength of agreements is based on people keeping their Word, and that is based on the integrity of their character.

To me it sounds like you are at "These might be good potentials, just not maybe at this time. Let them get their healing dealt with on their own first. Because we rather start out with all players healthy rather than 2 healthy and 2 kinda wonky still."

However, I keep going back to the possibility that we might be the stability they each need to feel comfortable/secure and happy. Am I deluding myself?

GOOD there too. You question if you are deluding self. Let me ask... Why is it your job to be their stability? You want to take on more relationships? Or you want to take on a case load... like you are the therapist and they are your patients? Or you are their enabler -- if they are seeking to avoid doing true marriage repair?

I know that Shell has some emotional needs related to stability that Ivan isn't meeting, partly because of his own attachment issues- and I feel like I could maybe help meet those needs, and Tom, too.

And does that mean “help” like being there for your friends as friends and encouraging them to get their house in order?

Or “help” like becoming the white knight hero prince that rescues the princess and they live happily ever after fantasy stuff? Where you personally escort them through their stuff like the saving hero?

Do you not expect Shell to create her own stability? Stop hanging out with weirdos if that's what's rocking her boat? Get a counselor if some kind of stress/mental health issue is rocking her boat? Learn to sail and steer her boat if she keeps making bad choices and taking it in murky waters?

Then Ivan would be somewhat off the hook for bearing the whole thing alone. Is this overly optimistic on my part?

If this is his marriage, don't you think he SHOULD be on the hook for how he participates in it and holds up his marriage agreements? Why are you eager to save Ivan from being on the hook for having to repair his marriage after he chose to cheat? Or save Ivan from telling his wife (if she rocking her own boat) – “Hon, you are rocking your own boat. Stop hanging out with weirdos/get a counselor/whatever it is. “ Is Ivan fobbing off his husband jobs on you?

Are they avoiding doing the job in front of them (marriage repair) with side distraction escapism? (flirting with you guys and quad dreaming)

Shell & I have talked about the possibility of Ivan & I hooking up to fulfill some of his sexual needs- and she seems cool with the idea.

Are you a person in this or a handy dick cushion? Is she fobbing off Ivan on you because she is disenchanted with him right now? And/or wants access to your husband so she's trying to sell it like tradesies? Is this like sounding it out with all people before leaping in like obtaining everyone's goodwill and consent? Or like she's pimping out her hubby?

Not saying she is doing any of that but healthy skepticism, ok? People sometimes try to sell you a pig in a poke.

Honestly, nobody seems to have started out quite as rock stable as Tom & I are. Are there others?

Me. Same boat. We are that couple our friends look up to. Closed right now during active parenting and eldercare. And yeah I have a bunch of friends, some of which I crush on and would consider dating eventually. But part of what makes us solid is not rushing into things willy-nilly. I teach my children to run down the list ...

  • Right person?
  • Right place?
  • Right time?
  • Right way/attitude?
  • All on the same page?
  • All in good health?
  • Backup support?
  • Emergency plan/Plan B?

... before declaring "All systems go!"

I have high and strict personal standards. Because it spares me and my life from too many shenanigans! And there have been some "close but no cigar" moments which is a bummer. But by and large I'm having a great time living my life. I enjoy quality relationships, relatively low drama, and manageable stress. Like you, I think "Why would I trade a good thing for a load of of stupid?"

Anybody have experience starting a quad with best friends that worked out (or didn't & there's something to learn from it)? I'd love to learn more & hear others' POV and ideas!

A quad is too many relationships stacked up at once to me to be the starting place. Nice if it naturally ends up that way but not something to start on to me. Or try to force into happening.

If I was going to Open my marriage next month? We'd have to agree on who first. Him or me. Say him. Scarecrow goes off and starts dating again next month. While I hang back a bit by choice. He gets his side launched well in Sept, then my turn. I get my side launched in October. Maybe even Nov or Dec. Cuz we're rusty, it's been a while, need to get our bearings and I'm not trading stability for "kid in a candy store" crazy were he mega-dates and I mega-date at the same time and it's all this flurry and people and emotions and "too many changes too soon too fast." I can pace myself. I can choose how I approach a "series of Openings and little changes" until there. The marriage is all Open now and we didn't ding the budget, our home life, make drama, or act nuts.

There's no fire. This is not a sprint. It's endurance, the long run, a marathon. Pacing matters.

If this was a store and we are gonna be open for business? I prefer the soft opening + grand opening later. Considering it like a soft opening or "a series of Openings" could help iron out some kinks first. Especially since it's been a long time and we ARE rusty.

I'm old now. One of the privileges of age is not having so much whirl-windy or angst or doubts or impulses or lalas like in my 20s. :rolleyes: Back then I got it, but I didn't understand it in the BONES until I arrived at the "certain age" when people older than me would go "Yeah, I remember that. It's fun, but boy. It's a RELIEF to be older and not be all gungho 20s any more."

Now that I am here? I can report it IS a relief! :D

And life experience gives me healthy skepticism. What's the real deal here? Anyone trying to sell me a pig in a poke? Any covert agendas? I'm not going in all trigger happy, starry-eyed or wet behind the ears. Like... it might be a new relationship, THIS relationship. But I'm old hat. I've been participating in relationships for decades in many forms.

So you? This poly thing, that form might be new. But your relationship skills? You sound like you've been doing it successfully with your spouse a long time and you sound like you have stable friends for a support system should things go wonky, and you are stable sounding in your own mind to know what's hinky and what is not.

Deep down? You know when you are trying to talk yourself into doing something you are uncertain about, kinda being your own con man.

Trust yourself and don't buy pigs in a poke. From yourself or others.

Sometimes it is ok to give it a pass.

  • Sometimes it is wide berth kind of pass. Like “Good grief! You are a crazy person! I need to steer clear!”
  • Sometimes it's “close but no cigar. Bummer”
  • Sometimes it is “Close. But not at this time. Maybe come back and look again later.”

I think you have one of those. Good potential, close, maybe come back and look again later. Keep being friends and wait. You do not tick all the boxes yet to pull the trigger in good faith and in strong confidence.

I don't know what color some of these are, but against my personal standard you sound like...

  • Right person?
  • Right place?
  • Right time? <-- not sounding like it
  • Right way/attitude? <-- you have some doubts
  • All on the same page?
  • All in good health? <-- Nope. 2 wonky, still healing from affair thing
  • Backup support?
  • Emergency plan/Plan B?

It's not all green if 2 of them are red and one is yellow for "maybe, proceed with caution, watch out for pigs in a poke."

You can borrow my tool and color it yourself.

Green = good to go
Yellow = proceed with caution
Red = Stop. Might be permanent. Might be wait for color to change.
Black = "Hell no, we won't even go!" dealbreaker / We went but Mayday! Mayday! Mission Abort!

You do not have to share it here... just ideas for discernment for you. Or you could make your own discernment tool based on your own personal standards and do the checks before hitting "all systems go!"

(cont)
 
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Stop sharing sex with your friends if it gets you all hot to trot for a quad and clouds your judgement. It's like driving drunk.

Could them finish restabilizing their marriage on their own after the cheating thing. And revisit this later when you see proof of changes made so it can be like "Ok, starting with 4 healthy players and not like 2 healthy and 2 wonky."

That's what I would do. You cannot predict the future. But nothing wrong with trying to "set up for success" so the odds play out better in that direction so you can skip unnecessary drama.

Wise investors don't fritter their resources away. Maybe that helps too. "Am I being a wise investor here or a gambler? What kind of return would I get for my investment?"

Keep thinking things out. You sound like you are on a the right track. Just don't get trigger happy or ants in the pants.

Because in your potential quad thing? If it doesn't work out, it doesn't go back to "original marrieds, everyone friends" guaranteed. It could go all the way down to "everyone single, nobody friends."

Poly is intense relating, more people, more variables, more stakes, more hearts on the line, more everything. Like emotional edge play sometimes. Which can bring high highs, but also low lows. You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness.


Part of re-opening for us? Includes finishing the post nup and divorce papers and chucking them in a safety deposit box. Don't need it? Not a prob. Need it? Already done, don't have to be trying to make the emergency back up plan when in duress.

Can't talk about it without falling apart and being all boohoo? Marriage is not as solid as you think then. Because the last act in a good marriage is sometimes a good solid respectful parting. We have children. If we break up we still have to show up to family events, graduations, weddings, births, etc. A good parting (if needed) can "set up for success" there too -- as good exes, friends, coparents, cograndparents, etc.

So it's not damaged familes/rifts continuing and neverending post divorce dramalama. Because Granny Galagirl and Grandpa Scarecrow are STILL going at it hammer and tongs 30 years later. That's not respectful to each other as individuals, respectful to the marriage we once shared, and not being good elder role models for this tribe.

That's another reason I'm so stable and solid and usually end up having a good time in Life. I can predict my future(s). I don't know which I'll get. But I am pretty confident I'll get one of my Top 3. Because I'm steering it in that direction! I know I'm the captain of my own ship and I'm a good sailor.

HTH!
Galagirl
 
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Hmmm. Well, I dunno, GG... As I said in the Intro thread, I get the overall impression that, though no leaping as been done yet, there's a LOT in the works, & that the first jump will be huuuuge.

RainLevity, here's how I see it.

First, let me go back to "learning poly from erotic novels." If polyamory has been accurately portrayed in ANY erotica, I'd be interested in the titles. :) But I suspect that what we're talking here is threesomes & orgies & infidelity -- nonmonogamy, that is, NOT polyamory.

As for the leaps, there's a bunch: bisexuality, swinging, group sex, polyfidelity, cohabitation. Most of those have been lurking around for "many years." Very little actual experience, yet prepared to go charging wildly in, & (once the whole plan has been launched) damn the consequences.

Issues? Permanence, closed sexuality, escalator thinking, couplism, taking advantage of emotional vulnerability. Rather than meet "strangers" & actually learn to develop a relationship organically, the plan is ("to protect our kids") to slot a pair of friends into the preexisting fantasy -- sure, it helps that they were into group swing, but that past-tense word leaves me wondering.

I'm not entirely dour about it... but there's just so MUCH potential downside. :(

Don't get ahead of the reality. Maybe the four of you need to start off with simple casual stuff, like some long nude non-sexual evenings together, literally getting used to each other's natural skins. From there you could move up to trading massages -- again, nonsexual.

At any point, you can also float the possibility of an occasional evening of sex... but don't pile on more pressure with making it some sort of permanent &/or closed commitment.

And if you need to bring up group marriage, take great pains to NOT float it as a demand or condition or expectation. You would risk coming across as offering "distraction sex" to a troubled couple (the carrot) so they'll have to commit to the end-goal quad or risk losing your attention & possibly your friendship (the stick).

Best way to avoid this? Bring them into the conversation RIGHT NOW. Make sure they read this thread. Give them time to think about it, & maybe discuss it with each other; when they're ready, discuss it WITH them. As your marriage is so incredibly ideal :D, you should let THEM take the lead. And you should accept that they might not be interested in some key part of your preconceptions.
 
Hmmm. Well, I dunno, GG... As I said in the Intro thread, I get the overall impression that, though no leaping as been done yet, there's a LOT in the works, & that the first jump will be huuuuge.

I agree. It is huge.

I'm not entirely dour about it... but there's just so MUCH potential downside.

I agree. I'm not dour about it, but there IS downside. I am responsible for my own emergency preparedness.

Don't get ahead of the reality. Maybe the four of you need to start off with simple casual stuff, like some long nude non-sexual evenings together, literally getting used to each other's natural skins. From there you could move up to trading massages -- again, nonsexual.

I agree about not getting ahead of the reality. I disagree about starting there. I'm not gonna play snugglebunnies with a married couple fresh out of cheating affair. Sensual play, sex play... all that stuff can get my motor running which then clouds my judgement. I know this about myself.

For me there are pre-questions like "Are these healthy people for me to be taking up with at this time?"

If this is like "relationship broken add more people" for them and they are on the slow track to breaking up drama trying to use poly as bandaid or soft exit?

I don't need to get in the hot tub with them and get splashed with the fall out.

Galagirl
 
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I know it is long. It's fine to skip. :D

It was for OP. RainLevity was asking for analysis and potential pitfalls so I shared how I handle things and how I think.

My main premise is that there SHOULD be a "pre-questions" part, the "step zero" work. The first step is not always "step 1: find people, date!"

I think some people get so excited like "At last! People to poly with! Let's go!" that they sometimes forget to go

"Ok, but what KIND of people?"
"Ok, but HOW will we go?"

and all those other "step zero" kind of things in assessing the potential people and the potential relationship. That's a big pitfall to me. Skipping step zero.

And step 00, before even that. Self fitness assessment before assessing the fitness of the potentials.

"Do I want to play like a Jedi player? Or play like the Muppet Show? CAN I even play right now?"

I love Muppets. Muppet shenanigans are funny to watch on TV with kids. But I don't want to LIVE in back stage chaos with chickens and pigs and things flying everywhere. I like living my life with my personal values, my personal standards, my personal ethics, my "Jedi code" so my life can be mostly shenanigans free.

Right now that means I bench myself. I am not fit. Not willing, not able. What would my dates do? Help me chase my dementia dad around because he cheeked his meds again? That would be a riot.

"Wanna go out with me? You pin him down, I'll get the applesauce. Then we can take loopy dad out for ice cream for being a good. If he doesn't punch us first because if he doesn't take his behavior meds right he starts hitting people."

Wheee! So sexy! :D

RainLevity, take your time. I think it is GOOD that you are asking yourself a lot of things and doing the work of preparation. Keep asking yourself. Really make SURE.

There's no fire. No hurry.

Galagirl
 
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Wow, thanks for all the advice, guys!

Hubby & I read through it all & I am crafting a response, but it's going to take me a little bit. It's a lot of information & I really appreciate all the thoughts. Check back tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to get it sorted & reply. :)
 
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