Slipping into it, how to avoid bad Errors

Michaels

New member
Hi all !

I am Michael.

I have a Wife, we are married since 35Years, kids are out house.

A few years ago we took our friend and bookkeeper with us for some month holiday to a cottage - she had a nasty breakup.
She made advances that time, i blocked it beyond some kissing.
My wife and I share totally everything - we have no secrets.

We offered her to come with us permanent and leave Germany for some new things, she was not game for this.
Planned was that we buy a canadian farm and raise horses, habe a menage au trois, and enjoy life.
She was unsure to leave parents, family, kids e.g.

(sorry for language i am no native english)

Now she has a new man, and she is still attracted to us, especially me.

I already have been openly flirtatious with other women as long as m wife likes them.
I never would hurt her.
I feel that she is game and we diskussed taking Katharina into out relationship, like we did before.

She was away with Katharinas man for some fun and she will never accept or do something with him as he is (beta, phlegma, intelligent but philosophical not practical without a fixed way) opposite as she would like.
He is the opposite of me.

She likes Katharina - they harmonize perfekt as they are totally different but share same prinziples of integrity.

I told Katharina that she can only have me (we are in the "touchy/kissing/teasing" phase ) - if she drops him.
I thought that this would be in Karins interest too.

Now he approached me telling me that he sees his situation not as the leader of the pack but as advisor of the king (we are the rich couple, we would have to set the way/rules for living/expenses e.g,)

My wife approaches me and tells me it is not a problem, in a dog team or at wolfes there are allways "beta males" and i should accept it, he can be helpful in many ways if he is on board.

I invited Katharina next weekend without him, the weekend after with him.

I am a little confused.

As the "alpha" of the process i want to make the transition as smooth and comfortable for all the involved persons as possible.

We have been with Katharina to Spa's and naked resorts and know each other, but we have not done more than "sensual" sex, hugging/kissing.
He has never been with.

My Wife suggests taking both to a public spa with naked areas (neutral ground) to get him relaxed and do some nice hours together as a next step.

What obstacles to avoid?

There is a lot of things i see upfront, a lot she is concerned also. Katharina tells, she does not want to drop him as living openly together with us is problematic with her parents and kids as they and the partners of the kids might not accept such a lifestyle even if it fits us and her. Her parents are very "oldstyle".

Where are the key things i have to look into if i want to lead the process?
 
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. . . he sees his situation not as the leader of the pack but as advisor of the king (we are the rich couple, we would have to set the way/rules for living/expenses e.g,)

My wife approaches me and tells me it is not a problem, in a dog team or at wolfes there are allways "beta males" and i should accept it, he can be helpful in many ways if he is on board.

. . .

I am a little confused.

As the "alpha" of the process i want to make the transition as smooth and comfortable for all the involved persons as possible.

. . .

Where are the key things i have to look into if i want to lead the process?

I'm not sure what process you are trying to lead here - building some kind of personal monarchy? Founding a household based on canine culture?

In polyamory, ideally, the people involved in a relationship get together and listen to each other's needs and see if they can come up with agreements about how to relate.

I'm not sure how to suggest you proceed after the steps you've taken of assuming the crown, opening bilateral talks with individual players about the roles (and utility?) of others, and issuing proclamations about the schedule and invitee list for future meetings. Because none of that illustrates an intention toward polyamory, to me.

If you're only willing to do this as king, good luck. But don't expect much help with refining this particular approach on a polyamory forum.
 
Thanks for your answer.

You totally missunderstood my question, but thanks for the remark anyway.

I am not aiming for a position of "a king" or a "superior" or anything else.

The "king" thing was brought up by the (not married) new man of Katharina, the "alpha wolve" analogie was brought up by my wife in the discussion with her.

I see a relation as a process of making things between people pleasant while going for attached and individual goals.

There should be no "strings", "chains", "limits" (beyond the saine sense what a grown up wouldnt do) or "golden cages" or such.

But - relationship means more than only "having sex together" with someone.

Especially when you are older relations have a lot of external things like kids, grandchildren and such involved, also you might want to achive financial goals together or material things in variing combinations.

The related people have to see those things upfront if you want to do a harmonic relation which involves all aspects?

If you are young, only the "amour" part might be enough and the center of the world, but if you step through this board here, you see quickly that a lot of good started poly relations fail due to jealousy or funding issues.

I want all the involved persons to have a smooth easy and relaxed transition into those - for us - uncharted waters which are ahead of us.

If you see this concern as "king-ish" you're welcome.
If you think i want to build a thing where i have the "scepter of power" and make others do what i want - you have the whole wrong idea.
You describe machoism, selfishness and infanty - the things which would surely lead into a desaster, even in monogamous life if the wift has some selfwothiness.

Sorry that you felt the wrong idea about my character.
 
Michaels,

I know nothing of your character. All I know of your situation is what you’ve written, and I quoted what jumped out at me as describing an extreme hierarchy with you at the top. If you merely *find* yourself there and are willing to abdicate and try a more egalitarian approach, you might want to cease referring to others’ “beta” traits and assuming that having more money entitles you to a greater role in rulemaking in a potential network/family/polycule.

I don’t know how much of my misunderstanding is because of the language barrier. I do know that much of my reaction is based on the actual words you have used. But I don’t have anything else to go on.

Good luck. There are many good counselors here — maybe some of them can better understand what you mean.
 
The spa sounds nice.

As for obstacles to avoid, in my (limited) experience, they mostly stem from people having mismatched expectations about, well, anything really.

So, you go to the spa - someone might be hoping for a naked cuddle. Two other people may have agreed between each other that they won't be hugging anyone else. The fourth person is unsure what they want out of the day. Everyone is on a different page, so to speak.

So, having some shared expectations and articulated boundaries might help prevent any misunderstandings. Get everyone on the same page without just hoping for the best.

If you're taking a lead, then you can "chair" the discussions and perhaps keep a record of agreements. This could even be done in a chat thread so responses can be mulled over (facebook group chat for example), then a summary collated and effectively signed by everyone.

It doesn't have to be a list of rules, actually god forbid that it was, rather a way of everyone being able to say and see where the others are at.
 
You are surely right about the usage of words - they describe indirect my character as well as you might see it.
I've been like that since long.

In real life there is allways domination and submission in every aspect of life, even if partners (love, business whatever) claim "all are equal".

I accept this thinking of equality, it helps the involved ones to feel better.

From my todays viewpoint relations are a complex map of interactions with dominations and submission where roles even change with subjects.
A financially orientated dominating women might be dominating a men financially while beeing dominated by him emotionally and both might be submissive if they meet the right partner, or she might be emotionally dominant on a potential new partner.

Life is nowhere blak/white.

The women with me are surely there because of me. I do not play or intend to play sugar daddy, my wife is wealthy enough to live on her own without having to work or needing money from me.

If we want someone at our side it is more the idea of opening new possibilities, ideas, open opinions, new charisma, new projects e.g.

Love is only a part of a relationship. There is a "everyday" life of the ones living together then also.
We tested waters with a longer Holiday some 5 or so weeks long in our foreign cottage and it was harmonic between the girls an also for me.
I was Game for that.

Now there is a fourth individual involved. You have to look into his emotional functionality to see how this can work out.

But might be i overanalyze. But emotional damages after they occurred are hard to fix.
 
The spa sounds nice.

As for obstacles to avoid, in my (limited) experience, they mostly stem from people having mismatched expectations about, well, anything really.

So, you go to the spa - someone might be hoping for a naked cuddle. Two other people may have agreed between each other that they won't be hugging anyone else. The fourth person is unsure what they want out of the day. Everyone is on a different page, so to speak.

So, having some shared expectations and articulated boundaries might help prevent any misunderstandings. Get everyone on the same page without just hoping for the best.

If you're taking a lead, then you can "chair" the discussions and perhaps keep a record of agreements. This could even be done in a chat thread so responses can be mulled over (facebook group chat for example), then a summary collated and effectively signed by everyone.

It doesn't have to be a list of rules, actually god forbid that it was, rather a way of everyone being able to say and see where the others are at.


Evie, thanks.

The spa was my wifes idea.

I am used to Karin naked, i am used to Katharina naked.

He has been in undertrousers in our house in the morning and in shorts in the garden and so it should not be a big step, especially as East-Germans had the FKK Movement.

Thanks for your idea of discussion.

Is this really good?

Wouldnt it be better just to let the two women set their physical and emotional boundaries with actions instead of words.
Just make it a "fun" experience, teasing and making out like in the teenie times?

Making him feel comfortable and relaxed, so he can test waters on his own?

I am against any rule in a marriage or love especially written ones. If i do not like a thing i tell. If someone else has a problem i accept. Not everything can be solved, thats life.

Control does not work from my hpov.

If people support the same integrity or goals they will not need things like written rules beyond sane sense.

What do you thing about discussing a productive thing we organize together (some collaboration, garden planting something, whatver his mind is on, or some small construction work, a art course we attend together -might be only me and him- a visit and riding some horses him and my wife, whatver, just go with the flow and see where it heads)?

Discussing Goals and expectations might be far fetched at that point.

Do you think discussing emotions is more positive or negative on such an event?

There is a formal "bathing suit" area and dining in the resort i am thinking about also, so if he seems incomfortable we might move there.
 
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Hi Michael,

Can I ask... are you specifically looking for advice about how to go about encouraging this other man (Katharina's new man) to feel more comfortable getting naked, and behaving sexually while in the company of several people (i.e. you, your wife Karin and his girlfriend Katharina)... and in particular, in the context of visiting a spa, nude beach, or vacation?

OR... are you wanting to build on these separate relationships, in order to form a long-lasting QUAD relationship - possibly even including moving Katharina and the other man into yours and Karin's home at some point? (Becoming like one big, happy family of four.)

Because these are related, but ultimately different goals.

Firstly, is this "beta" man sexually active with Katharina at this point, when they are alone and in private? I got the impression they haven't had sex yet, from your post, but I could have interpreted that wrongly. (Perhaps you meant Karin and he have not been intimate at all.)

If he seems distinctly uncomfortable doing anything sexual with either woman, or when he is around the group... even simply nudity... then it's possible he is:

a.) Not attracted to either Karin or yourself
b.) Asexual, grey or demisexual
c.) Not a good fit for polyamory or non-monogamy.

In any of the above three cases, it would be pointless... even harmful to him (and to his and Katharina's relationship) to try to "encourage" or pressure him into doing something he does not feel comfortable with.

If he is simply "new" to the idea, tentative, shy, or has body-confidence issues or shame about his sexuality (regardless of attraction or orientation), it MAY be possible to gently guide him towards becoming more open with you all, his friends and potential lovers - but only IF he has expressed some interest in doing so.

************

If it's a case of wanting Katharina to come and live with you (a triad) but this man "stands in the way" because he and Katharina are involved/dating... and/or because Katharina is reluctant to move in with you because of the social stigma around poly/menage-a-trois, and/or because she has children of her own to consider...

...then perhaps it may still be possible to combine the two main "dyads" (you/Karin + Katharina/other man) into some form of "quad" situation, by maintaining separate households, but still getting together for weekends at your house, or at other locations, in order to enjoy each other's company and to "play" together sexually.

*************

Another option (if ALL four people are willing ) is for all FOUR people to move into yours and Karin's home together - since you say you are quite wealthy and can provide financially for everybody to some extent.

This option will provide the necessary "cover" for Katharina, as far as her parents are concerned, because you will be able to claim you are "just friends" (two couples) who choose to live together in the same household. Of course, this will only work if ALL people are on board with the plan AND your home is large enough to provide adequate space and privacy for everybody concerned, especially the children whose needs and rights should always be paramount.

*************

Yes, Michael... if YOU are the most confident member of this group when it comes to speaking up (in a spirit of love and honesty), and believe you have excellent problem-solving skills and the like, there is nothing wrong with you "taking the reins" and leading a meeting (or many in-depths talks) between the four concerned, so as to work out a reasonable solution to all of the above.

As long as you remember that ALL four people need to have a voice in the decision-making process. If someone is reticent or shy, and doesn't speak up... you will need to ASK them about their thoughts, feelings and ideas on each matter as it comes up in conversation.
 
Thanks Lunabunny, i will read again, think and sort my ideas and come back to the discussion.
You understand deep - and i have to think first.
 
I think Lunabunny laid out things well in her post.

FWIW, extra thoughts of mine...

Where are the key things i have to look into if i want to lead the process?

I would say not to rush things and remember you do not HAVE to lead the process just because you are good at leading. It's ok to be on the discussion committee (if you want to be) and NOT be the chairperson. Someone else can chair the discussion. It's ok to just deal with your OWN things and let other people deal with theirs.

I am not sure what you are seeking.

  • You sound like you want to rush into everyone sharing sex. Either in various couples or like group sex.
  • You also sound like you want to rush into everyone living together. Either in the same house or next door or similar.
  • Or maybe not so much rushing to those things, but not liking things being "up in the air" and you want to feel something is "settled?"

Which is it? Or is it something else?

My Wife suggests taking both to a public spa with naked areas (neutral ground) to get him relaxed and do some nice hours together as a next step.

A next step to WHAT? What relationship model does wife want here? To be married to you and to date Katharina? For everyone to date everyone else? Something else?

I think you and wife could get clear on what it is you each are wanting FIRST. Then of those things, sort out what is compatible and could actually happen and what is not. Lunabunny laid out some options.

You only want to be involved with wife and her UNATTACHED friend. Otherwise, you just want to be with you wife. So... the friend is attached. You could just be with your wife then. HOW does that look like?

No Open marriage? Just you two, closed?

  • (you + wife)

Is it two couples, where the women date?

  • You + (Wife + Katharina) + Guy

Is it a triad with you not involved in that? Your wife dates both Katharina and Guy?

  • You + (wife + Katharina +Guy)

Are you up for a triad on this side, and Guy is not involved in that. Katharina dates him separately?

  • (You + Wife + Katharina) + Guy

Something else?

Or you only are up for one of these two models?

  • (You + Wife)
  • (You + Wife + Katharina)

You are not telling Katharina or Wife what to do. You are stating what models YOU can deal with at this time.

Wife seems to want to date her friend Katharina. Does she want you to accept Guy being Katharina's BF and you date Katharina too... so that wife can get to date Katharina since you also date her? Why not keep it simpler?

If you are ok with it... you could tell wife to go ahead and date Katharina. But for you? You don't want to because she comes attached now. And you are not interested in that.

Guy is up for everyone being involved. He comes at it like you can be the "king" and he can be the "king's advisor?" Is there a covert agenda? And he's trying to get his foot in the door appealing to your vanity/pride? That's a pretty weird approach. But I will give benefit of the doubt due to English not being your first language. But still... what's in it for him? Does he want access to you? Your wife? Your money? Something else?

If you want to sometimes take spa trips together and be naked together at clothing optional spaces... could leave it there. I would not jump into sharing sex or living with these people. It's ok for them to just be vacation friends.

As you say... for younger people simple attraction might be enough to jump into sharing sex or cohabitation. For older people with extended family relationships, jobs, property, etc? Mere attraction is not enough to involve people deeply in your life as more than friends. Going to the clothing optional spa together once in a while is one thing. Sharing sex, giving them a key to your house, putting them on your will are something else.

There is a difference between "working toward equality" and "instantly equal." There's also having no interest in things being "equal." Being ok having relationships outside the marriage without any of those being on the relationship escalator and sharing property, money, extended families, etc. Those relationships outside the marriage could be friends you naked spa with, and friends you do NOT naked spa with. They could be friends who are sometimes lovers. But they don't have to be deeply involved in your life like "extra spouses" or "extra co-parents" and so on. Maybe you don't want to share your children or grandchildren with them.

I'd say go slow and be ok sticking to what YOU want. If you want to be with wife, and only be with Katharina if she comes unattached? Then do that. Right now she's attached, so you can be with just wife. There. Then YOU are sorted out.

How the other people sort themselves out is their problem. You do NOT have to be the leader for all and organize everyone else.

You could tell wife you are ok with her dating Katharina (if you actually are) or her dating both of them (if you actually are.) And let wife deal with her own organizational problems. This doesn't have to be "kitchen table poly." It can be "very separate" poly.

And if the experiment has to end/doesn't work out... how do you all want to break up so all can feel ok about parting ways? Could talk about that plan too. Even if it ends up breaking up down to everyone single. You and wife no longer married.

Maybe these help in your talks.

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

Could use Google translate to change it to your main language by copying and pasting.

Galagirl
 
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Lunabunny you are on point.

I am nowhere just interested in Sex or "fresh meat". I am thinking on building a long lasting relationship. I am interested in her whole personality as an addition to our life.

Actually you got me thinking. I am dishonest and have to reevaluate my motivations and ways.

Whe we where accepting to live a "Menage a troi" with Katharina, especially in conjunction with relocation to a place where we would be "new folk" we where building a idea of a future for three.
(Katharina is our Bookkeeper since long, Karin is my wife)

Your wording "he is in the way" struck me in the face.

You are absolute right, and it was my first reaction and my "forced" attack on Katharina with my words "she only can have me if she drops him".
That was far beyond anything i should have done and far into her boundries.

I talked with my wife today and we think that part of her personality needs two men.

She cannot be attached to a men who tells her a direction or what to do as she has been under a very dominant father who still is telling her what to do and she attaches to men who are submissive but highly intelligent in the lyrical way, but where she tells the direction.
She suffers from the point that those men do not have the drive to get things done and get a career or a book finished and auch.
But she told me, she never could live with a men who orders her what to do.
I never behaved like that, we have a trusting relationship since aprox ten years, so she knows how i am.

She can attach to me as i do set directions and goals she CAN choose to follow but is not oblieged to.
She has seen, that i never build fences, chains or cages arround my wife or any other one family.

(sorry if my english words are wrong, but it is very compilcated to describe a complex character setting in a foreign language).

So i might have to step back.

The wifes did see the point and i think (women are far more advanced in sensing obstacles) the discussions my wife did and what he said is a preparation thing to get me into a more relaxed situation about him.

I am confused and a little insecure.

I do not know him, neither how trustworthy he is, nor how he is outside sport.

Might be i have to slow things down.

Next weekend she cancelled the sleeping here and will be here sunday early morning "due to a not cancellable thing".
 
Galagirl, i have to reread, YOu deeply thought through it too.

You are right in one point.

I have to let go of "leadership" and "fear". I have to just accept things as they are whithout driving anyone in any direction.
 
Hello Michael,

I think that in just about any new poly situation, the main obstacles to avoid are assumptions. That is, don't assume anything. If it's something that could be important, talk about it ahead of time. Communicate, communicate, communicate.

It seems like a positive step to me that you are making an effort to include "Beta Man" and to help him feel included (and relaxed). Continue that process, and always communicate, as much as you can.

I also recommend that you periodically update this thread as your situation evolves. This will give us more information and will help us to be able to give more/updated thoughts and advice. And it will give you opportunities to ask more questions (as they arise).

Hopefully what's posted in this thread so far is helpful.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I agree with you, Galagirl, that Lunabunny laid out things very well on point.
She triggered me with her "he is in the way"

It is in my character that i take the lead. Hard to suppress. If i sit there and see all of them discuss the same things over and over and know there is only one solution the i feel boored. Either i retract myself from the discussion more and more to give them time to see and find themself (i appear disinterestedly partially negative then) or i start clearing the discussion clouds so they can approach a outcome which is supportable and positive.


Seeking? If i feel into me, i want the "inner tension, the vibration, the fun" again, i like the chaos the sorting of the chaos, the collaboration the whole range of feelings. I want to push back booredom a little.


You sound like you want to rush into everyone sharing sex. Either in various couples or like group sex.
You also sound like you want to rush into everyone living together. Either in the same house or next door or similar.
Or maybe not so much rushing to those things, but not liking things being "up in the air" and you want to feel something is "settled?"

Which is it? Or is it something else?

I am a little pushy. I know. But things never change when there is no pushes and little presses.
Living together is the point i am into in my mind.


You only want to be involved with wife and her UNATTACHED friend. Otherwise, you just want to be with you wife. So... the friend is attached. You could just be with your wife then. HOW does that look like?

I discussed with her that she can "have him", she tells that she does not want him.

Total Open marriage - dangerous waters.

Our best longtime friends (not Katharina and her now friend) are claiming to have a "open" marriage and she sais she does not care who he sleeps with.

She allways wanted to move together with us, i am not sure about him.

They sleep here often, we often at their place. I limit sexual tension which is mainly between her and me.

But everything in their at the moment situation is weird and wrong, neiter feelings and situations seem clear, she is complicated, he frustrated and there is not a slightest chance that i could harmonize her and Karen.


But still... what's in it for him......

That is my main question. If this is solved (not only sexually, emotionally but also occupationally) things start to make sense.

I'd say go slow and be ok sticking to what YOU want. If you want to be with wife, and only be with Katharina if she comes unattached? Then do that. Right now she's attached, so you can be with just wife. There. Then YOU are sorted out.

How the other people sort themselves out is their problem. You do NOT have to be the leader for all and organize everyone else.

You could tell wife you are ok with her dating Katharina (if you actually are) or her dating both of them (if you actually are.) And let wife deal with her own organizational problems. This doesn't have to be "kitchen table poly." It can be "very separate" poly.

And if the experiment has to end/doesn't work out... how do you all want to break up so all can feel ok about parting ways? Could talk about that plan too. Even if it ends up breaking up down to everyone single. You and wife no longer married.

Maybe these help in your talks.

That is the point. I try to work outcome orientated - trying to think outcome related, where i should think process orientated.

Do a step and see if the dances are in the right direction.

Thank you for your opinion on the subject.
 
Ok.

Short Update.

Potential Metamour chickened out for today will be there next WE with hubby.

My wife told me, her limit is the point if Metamour talks anyday bad about her behind her back ALL ends.

So her limits are more at the respekt and trust area not the sex area.
 
Hi Michael, thanks for that update. I am thinking that Metamour is the guy with the beta personality. Katharina's boyfriend. Is that correct?
 
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