Negotiation: healthy boundaries vs manipulative ultimatums

You guys seem suited for poly, but perhaps not kink.

That's funny. I feel exactly the opposite. I think neither of us feels well-suited for poly. Laptop always tells me that I'm clearly poly -- that I am more poly than most of the people who call themselves poly. But at the end of the day, I don't seem to be great at doing all the processing. Like, I think about stuff and I analyze myself a LOT -- but it doesn't really change the way I feel. I cannot reason myself out of my feelings the way that other people seem to be able to.

Ponytail doesn't seem particularly poly either, but for different reasons. He frequently talks about how he doesn't think he can maintain more than one relationship, that he doesn't even necessarily consider himself polyamorous, but more just non-monogamous in general. He values friendship and intimacy and being part of the kink community. So he wants to connect with other people and the way he does that best is through being open to scenes and intimate contact.

Maybe we are just incompatible. Pontyail thinks we have the skills to figure this out, but I'm starting to wonder if there's just no way around it. I did a jealousy activity today and my "causes mild jealousy" scenarios (Ponytail telling someone else that he loves them, for example) and my "causes severe jealousy" scenarios (Ponytail getting an erection while with someone else) were totally opposite of what seems to be the norm for poly people, and definitely opposite of what Ponytail wants from non-monogamy.
 
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Sometimes we love someone and they are just not a good match.
 
I cannot reason myself out of my feelings the way that other people seem to be able to.
People can't actually reason themselves out of strong feelings. Well, some people can, but I don't think it's the norm. You're normal.

You may want to look into those methods of personal development which are less thought-based. Methods like somatic therapy/ bodywork, meditation, relaxation, visualisation, breathwork - some of them might suit you. It's hard to use any of them to change a specific obstacle in your life in a specific way, but they are THE way to change, like, your very baseline feelings. I'm confident in that because I've recently used breathwork to address my anxiety issues and I'm feeling a very distinct shift - it's new but some of it will probably last. Send me a pm if you want to chat about my limited experience.

It's the subtle but significant personal shifts which will make you outgrow your problems.
 
I can't recall, but since you've been with Ponytail, has he actually had a sexual relationship with anyone else yet? I know he's dated a bit here and there, but I don't recall if anything has gotten to the point of him actually having sex and lasted.

I ask this because sometimes our brains do all kinds of things telling us how terrible something WILL be..... until we actually experience it. For many people, the thought of their partner sleeping with someone else is unpleasant and is a huge hurdle when they're opening up and exploring poly.... and then they get to that point and have some feels at first, but see that nothing has actually changed in their own relationship now that their partner has slept with someone else, and it really helps them to move past the feels because now there is experience instead of just ideas.

Of course, that's not true for all, but just wondering if you you guys you have actually experienced this yet (of course this excludes the threesomes with your other partner since you were present, etc. I'm talking about a totally separate partner).

If you've already had this experience and regardless of the D/s element, you just can't get past the idea of him having a sexual dynamic with someone else unless you're a part of it, then I think there's your answer and you just might ultimately not be compatible with people who aren't willing to be sexually mono with you (outside of group sex).

If you felt like your negative feelings about this were getting better and improving, then I'd say that this might just be a temporary hurdle and require more time and processing. But if it shows now signs of changing after time passes when Ponytail is dating... then I'm struggling to see how it will ever get better.
 
I'm not sure what advice I can offer you, MsEmotional, or if I have anything of value to add... I just wanted to assure you you're not alone in your feelings.

I myself have two partners, both of whom are essentially monogamous with me by choice. Over the last year or so, I've developed somewhat of a D/s dynamic with both, but especially with Boho... with me as Domme/Mistress.

Jester and I are currently on a hiatus of sorts, but even with him I am more of a... I guess you could call it an emotional top/mother/protector type. Though we do switch. He is more vanilla than I am, so it doesn't really manifest in a physical/sexual sense as much as it does in our romantic interaction.

I can't say I was ever naturally inclined towards any particular kind of kink/lifestyle beforehand. Past relationships have tended to be more egalitarian, if not completely vanilla... and in one, I was definitely more of a sub type.

All that said... in my current "V", I've found it extremely difficult to handle even the idea of my partners being with others outside of our polycule, sexually or romantically. I have coped reasonably well on the few occasions we three have all played together in an online sense. But the one time we tried that in person - and my partners shared some sexual intimacy with each other, with me present - I found it very confronting and basically broke down the next day. Since then, we agreed this wasn't something we'd actively pursue, albeit, there has been little opportunity... so far.

From my perspective, I can just about handle the fact that my partners love each other in their own way (they're very close friends) and express that. But as far as sharing sex with each other... I think I will only feel comfortable with it, in our hypothetical future, if I can "direct" the action/be "in charge". I have explained this to both of them, and they seem fine with that idea.

I'm not sure how well I'd cope if Boho decided she wanted to date a man (she is pretty much straight), but I'd try to deal if she ever expressed a desire to do so. Right now, she swears she isn't interested. But I know I'd be devastated if Jester wanted to see another woman. It's been hard enough to accept that there are *some* lingering feelings between he and Boho, although they are not "in love" per se.

In your situation with Ponytail, I think I'd feel much the same way. I understand how difficult it is to have someone claim to be "yours", then turn around and say they're interested in seeking out sex or partners elsewhere.

Certain words and concepts carry a lot of weight - at least, they do for me. If a person has pledged themselves to ONE partner alone, and that dyad together has developed a unique bond based on something being "only" between the two of them, it loses most, if not all meaning if that "specialness" is diluted by being shared with others. This is the case for monos, obviously, but can also be the case when there is D/s dynamic or other kink/fetish that is supposedly only shared with a particular partner.

In your case, I guess it would depend on WHAT Ponytail is actually seeking from other relationships, and WHY.

If he wants to extend the D/s dynamic into other potential relationships, I would also have a huge problem with that, if he was my sub. On the other hand, if it's "just" a sexual thing, it may be possible for you to consider if you'd be able to give him "permission" to do one-off scenes with others - approval at your discretion. If it's loving, romantic relationships he seeks with others, that's a whole other story... though still possible/negotiable if you two agree to keep the D/s stuff between you two alone, and his other relationships remain more of the vanilla variety.

Personally, I don't see how he can have BOTH (romance/love AND kink) with another, or multiple others, and still expect you to be Dominant with him AND the provider of love, companionship and the rest. It's not really possible in my eyes to be a Dom/me and be one of many.
 
I can't recall, but since you've been with Ponytail, has he actually had a sexual relationship with anyone else yet? I know he's dated a bit here and there, but I don't recall if anything has gotten to the point of him actually having sex and lasted.

I ask this because sometimes our brains do all kinds of things telling us how terrible something WILL be..... until we actually experience it. For many people, the thought of their partner sleeping with someone else is unpleasant and is a huge hurdle when they're opening up and exploring poly.... and then they get to that point and have some feels at first, but see that nothing has actually changed in their own relationship now that their partner has slept with someone else, and it really helps them to move past the feels because now there is experience instead of just ideas.

Of course, that's not true for all, but just wondering if you you guys you have actually experienced this yet (of course this excludes the threesomes with your other partner since you were present, etc. I'm talking about a totally separate partner).

If you've already had this experience and regardless of the D/s element, you just can't get past the idea of him having a sexual dynamic with someone else unless you're a part of it, then I think there's your answer and you just might ultimately not be compatible with people who aren't willing to be sexually mono with you (outside of group sex).

If you felt like your negative feelings about this were getting better and improving, then I'd say that this might just be a temporary hurdle and require more time and processing. But if it shows now signs of changing after time passes when Ponytail is dating... then I'm struggling to see how it will ever get better.

You are correct, he hasn’t had sex with anyone else (besides me — and Glasses as part of a threesome) since we have been together. He has dated a few people. I know that he has “done stuff to please” some of the women he has dated (I am assuming hand contact) but that it hasn’t gotten to the point of sex with any of them. The very idea of him getting turned on while pleasuring another woman made me feel really upset, though, and that’s what I am basing my feelings off of.

I have wondered the same, though, if he were to have a relationship that progressed past the makeouts stage, would it actually be easier for me than the newness of him being with someone in a casual relationship? The trouble is, he isn’t super likely to have such a relationship, at least not without him going through a lot more “relationship beginnings” in the meantime.
 
It interesting to me that you have such a strong feeling about him having a sexual relationship or being sexually attracted to someone else, when it seems like you don't have this struggle with your NP.

My NP is the same way in that he has an ongoing struggle when it comes to me dating and sleeping with other people, but he didn't have those same feelings about his ex back when they were together, or his other current partner. I mean, he still gets some feels in the sense that he doesn't really like to actively see his other partners engaging in things with others (which could come up since we go to play parties), but for me it's 100x worse. I honestly don't understand or identify with these feelings because my brain just can't make the leap of struggling with 1 partner and not the others without also then thinking "ok, but does that mean you don't care about the other person as much or that you value this relationship more than the other (as in, this one would be the more painful one to loose, therefore more risk, therefore more worry). I'm not saying at all that that is what either you or my own partner actually think or feel.... it's just the process that my own brain goes through because for me the logic tends to over-run the emotion.

Ultimately, I'm afraid that I don't really have any good advice for you other than continuing to seek therapy, talk about things with your partner, and potentially consider at what point do you decide if it makes sense to keep trying to make it work, or at what point do you decide that maybe it can't work regardless of how much you love each other. That's really only something that you can decide based on your own feelings and the wants/needs of you and your partners.
 
It interesting to me that you have such a strong feeling about him having a sexual relationship or being sexually attracted to someone else, when it seems like you don't have this struggle with your NP.

My NP is the same way in that he has an ongoing struggle when it comes to me dating and sleeping with other people, but he didn't have those same feelings about his ex back when they were together, or his other current partner. I mean, he still gets some feels in the sense that he doesn't really like to actively see his other partners engaging in things with others (which could come up since we go to play parties), but for me it's 100x worse. I honestly don't understand or identify with these feelings because my brain just can't make the leap of struggling with 1 partner and not the others without also then thinking "ok, but does that mean you don't care about the other person as much or that you value this relationship more than the other (as in, this one would be the more painful one to loose, therefore more risk, therefore more worry). I'm not saying at all that that is what either you or my own partner actually think or feel.... it's just the process that my own brain goes through because for me the logic tends to over-run the emotion.

Yeah, I have thought about that too. My feelings really aren’t based on fear of losing anyone though. I can’t imagine Ponytail leaving me any more than I can imagine Glasses leaving me. That’s why I thought maybe it was the D/s dynamic that was the issue and causing my possessiveness.
 
You spend too much time worrying. Doubting is fine, questioning is great, but worry is worse than nonproductive: it moves you backward.

Don't know that the following will help, but it stuck in my mind at work today as relevant to this discussion, so FWIW. ;)

As someone recently reminded me, "It doesn't do much good to run at feelings with logic." They have some intersection, but they're very different modes.

IME, the only way that I have ever been able to move past an animal-brain reaction -- here, a "fear" -- is to live with it awhile. I wouldn't "live in" a fear, & I certainly wouldn't let it take control. Rather, I acknowledge that it exists: it's a reflex, maybe with some direct rational basis, maybe caused by a mistaken association somewhere in my head, maybe from no basis whatever.

In idle moments, my logical side can examine the reaction, calmly looking at it from various angles, querying where it came from & what (if anything) it's there to accomplish. I don't judge it; I don't judge myself for having it.

The reaction mellows with time & familiarity. As I begin to understand it better, I can properly speak about it to other people, who might have insights but mostly let me know that it isn't some terrible failing on my part.

Above all, don't fear the fear. That takes something likely harmless & starts feeding it power, which doesn't go well -- it makes me think of taking a large, clumsy, docile animal & feeding it nothing but beer. :eek:

All in all, you'll probably do okay, IF you believe that you deserve to do okay. That might be your challenge.
 
An idea...

I had an epiphany while I was in the shower this morning. Sorry it is rambly -- I am hopped up on caffeine right now.

First of all, here are some of the assumptions that I have about polyamory:

1. At its core is the assumption that each individual is an autonomous being and should not be restricted as to who they choose to share their body and heart with.
2. "Rules" beyond those agreements necessary in order to promote sexual health and safety are undesirable and controlling.
3. No relationship should intrude on any other relationship.
4. It is pointless to try to control the depth that a relationship is allowed to take -- you cannot control whether someone will fall in love.


Assumptions 1-3 are making it really difficult for me to reconcile polyamory with the style of D/s that Ponytail and I have developed. How can Ponytail ask me to own his body and also expect bodily autonomy? How can the sexual control that I have over him suddenly stop just because someone else is around?

Assumption 4 isn't an issue for me. The idea of Ponytail falling in love with another partner is actually kind of lovely and wonderful. I have no desire to limit the emotional connection that he has with other people. It's the physical element that I struggle with.

The trouble with "rule free" Polyamory and D/s is that D/s is FULL of rules. There are many situations in our relationship where there is an expectation that Ponytail does not have bodily autonomy, for example.

So, with all that in mind, I am wondering if we should stop trying to negotiate within the polyamory framework (which, at least for me, holds certain ethical assumptions about one relationship not having any kind of power or increased status over any other relationship), and instead focus on negotiating non-monogamy within the D/s framework.

So, if I take away the assumption that there should be no "rules," I breathe a little more easily. The cognitive dissonance eases. I can start to think of this as a sexy adventure, instead of a confusing head trip.

I have been doing a lot of visualization from my jealousy workbook to try to figure out what it is that bothers me about Ponytail being sexual with someone else. The visualization I have guides me through imagining Ponytail on a "date" -- setting up the date, talking together, flirting, going home, kissing, having sex, cuddling and talking afterwards, etc. The idea is that you're supposed to think through what parts of the experience are uncomfortable jealousy triggers for you. The entire thing -- from start to finish -- is a huge anxiety-provoking nightmare for me.

And I think the issue -- from start to finish -- is that I'm a passive observer instead of an active agent.

I don't want to participate in Ponytail's other relationships as in, like, a threesome or something. I don't want to watch. I don't want to hover. I definitely don't want to participate. But as soon as I imagined all of that stuff in the visualization happening after Ponytail's date had asked me for permission? It was fine.

So then I started thinking about it. When Ponytail texts with someone new, I experience mild jealousy. It is uncomfortable for me, but I can handle it. Same thing with Ponytail seeing them for a social occasion. Flirting? No problem. Skip ahead and even a deep emotional bond doesn't really threaten me. It's the middle bits. As soon as that person wants to do a scene with Ponytail? Or starts kissing him? Or asks him to do something to please her? I feel intense jealousy. It's like what Raven Kaldera said in that book, Power Circuits: I don't want anyone to touch my toys.

However, if someone asked nicely if they could touch my toys? Well. Hmm....

I have thought about this before -- other dominants I've asked online and my therapist have both asked whether I would be okay with Ponytail being with someone else if he asked for my permission. But the idea of Ponytail asking me for permission just makes me want to say "no."

On the other hand, the idea of someone proposing an idea to Ponytail -- a scene, for example, or a date -- and him saying, "Oh that sounds like fun! You'll have to talk to my owner..." well, that feels totally different. Suddenly I feel generous.

There are several reasons why I suddenly feel like maybe this is the shift in thinking that will get us both what we want:

1. As I've said before, Ponytail doesn't necessarily even consider himself to be polyamorous. He says there are lots of flavors of non-monogamy and that polyamory is just one of them. The kind of relationships that I seek lend themselves to polyamory and so that's how I approach things, but that's not necessarily the kind of relationships that Ponytail seeks. Ponytail tends to just want to experience enjoyable sensations with people and build intimate connections with them.

2. Thus far, Ponytail has had no trouble telling other potential partners that there are some restrictions on what he is willing to do with them. (Specifically, he has told folks up front that I control all his orgasms and that he isn't likely to ever cum while with them. Note: This is something that he asked for from me, not something that I imposed on him.) And, thus far, all the people he has been with (kinky folks that he meets through the BDSM community) have had no problems with that. So maybe my anxiety about being too intrusive/controlling in someone else's relationship is kind of a "me" thing and not really that big of a deal to other people? Maybe, amongst the types who are non-mono and into BDSM, it's pretty commonplace for the dominant to have certain rules and everyone is just cool with going along with whatever?

Is it a big leap from being okay with, "My girlfriend owns me and controls all my orgasms, so I'm not going to cum when I am with you," to "My girlfriend owns me, so if you'd like to be physical with me you'll need to have a chat with her first,"?

Personally? I wouldn't be cool with either of those statements if I were the other person in the picture. If someone told me that they were owned by someone else I'd be like, "Meh. You should probably go be with that person then. I don't want any part of this." But obviously Ponytail and these other women have different ideas about what they get out of having an intimate relationship with someone who is owned by someone else. Maybe I am assuming that it is wrong to place a rule like this in place because I wouldn't want rules from other people impacting my relationship with someone -- when really it's not a big deal to other people, specifically the type of people that Ponytail wants to play with.

I haven't proposed this idea to Ponytail yet. I want to get a sense of where it falls on the ethical non-monogamy spectrum before I bring it up. How do you all see this?
 
Above all, don't fear the fear. That takes something likely harmless & starts feeding it power, which doesn't go well -- it makes me think of taking a large, clumsy, docile animal & feeding it nothing but beer. :eek:

Ha! I think Ponytail has used this exact analogy when we've talked about fears too. It kind of ties it together for me with the "Taming Your Mammoth" article.
 
I don't think any of this sounds necessarily unethical, especially in a situation where Ponytail is seeking more casual/playoriented/FWB situations and is up front about it. I think in the long run the one spot I could see it breaking down is if he DOES develop TheFeelz™ for one of these partners, and wants to have a relationship that's not quite as mediated through you - is "blanket permission" something you'd be willing to consider for a particular person after (some length of time / number of experiences / other criteria?

That said, on the boards I read on FL, this sort of arrangement is FAR more common amongst the non mono than it is on the more nonhierarchical / RA boards I read on facebook etc. Do you have an account there? It might be worth posting about this there, as well, even if through a sock puppet account.
 
I don't think any of this sounds necessarily unethical, especially in a situation where Ponytail is seeking more casual/playoriented/FWB situations and is up front about it. I think in the long run the one spot I could see it breaking down is if he DOES develop TheFeelz™ for one of these partners, and wants to have a relationship that's not quite as mediated through you - is "blanket permission" something you'd be willing to consider for a particular person after (some length of time / number of experiences / other criteria?

That said, on the boards I read on FL, this sort of arrangement is FAR more common amongst the non mono than it is on the more nonhierarchical / RA boards I read on facebook etc. Do you have an account there? It might be worth posting about this there, as well, even if through a sock puppet account.

Yeah, the dominants I have talked to online are through FL. I initially just brushed them off as vaguely unethical and not “really poly” because they were okay with having rules about what their submissive could do with other people. I think that the epiphany that I had this morning is that it isn’t necessarily unethical to treat people differently than how you’d want to be treated — that as long as they are okay with the rules, it’s maybe okay to have rules that you’d chafe under if you were in their position. Still kind of trying that mindset on for size....not sure how I feel about it yet.

I don’t have any problem with him developing TheFeelz for someone else, although I can imagine that it might change our dynamic if he did. But that’s okay with me — I want him to be happy and if he falls in love with someone super awesome, I’m pretty okay with that. It just might mean that we’d need to rethink the whole D/s dynamic if the other partner was uncomfortable with it.

I don’t think I would want to be involved beyond the initial request for permission anyway. Like, I wouldn’t want to have to have a conversation every time they played together. That sounds exhausting. It’s just that in-between time —between someone texting him and a physical relationship — where I feel like I am powerless and confused.
 
I think Ponytails take is much more important than our.

When Idealist wanted to implement such an arrangement I was like "Hell no, I'm not gonna tell any other person to go ask you!" and our clashing ideas about DS and nonmonogamy led to one of the worst crises we've had :) But that's just me.
 
I think Ponytails take is much more important than our.

When Idealist wanted to implement such an arrangement I was like "Hell no, I'm not gonna tell any other person to go ask you!" and our clashing ideas about DS and nonmonogamy led to one of the worst crises we've had :) But that's just me.

Good point. Thanks for sharing your experience! This whole thing is kind of a minefield....
 
Yeah, the dominants I have talked to online are through FL. I initially just brushed them off as vaguely unethical and not “really poly” because they were okay with having rules about what their submissive could do with other people. I think that the epiphany that I had this morning is that it isn’t necessarily unethical to treat people differently than how you’d want to be treated — that as long as they are okay with the rules, it’s maybe okay to have rules that you’d chafe under if you were in their position. Still kind of trying that mindset on for size....not sure how I feel about it yet.

This is how my relationship with my boyfriend works in some ways. For example, I tell him details* about other relationships/other guys, either because it's something I want to share, because I need to vent, or because I want his advice. This is something he's agreed to, in part because he seems to like hearing those details, especially when I'm sharing something positive and happy. But I can't tolerate hearing details about his other relationships. I end up feeling insecure and jealous, and sometimes angry if he tells me about something he does with another partner that he doesn't do with me but that I want. So I've given him very specific, firm boundaries about what I am and am not willing to hear. I've also asked him if I'm being unfair by having one set of standards about what I can talk about to him, and a different set about what he can talk about to me. His response was no, it isn't unfair, it's just that we have different levels of what we can handle hearing.

*As far as details I share with him (or with Hubby, or with anyone else I date), I tell all partners and prospective partners up front that I will talk to my other partners about a lot of things, because I don't have many people I can talk to about my relationships. If someone isn't okay with me telling my other partners something, they can tell me to keep it to myself and I will. If someone isn't okay with me telling my partners *anything*... well, they aren't compatible with me. But I don't share anything without making it clear that I will be sharing, or without giving the person the option of telling me not to share it.
 
Personally, I wouldn't want to get sucked into their dynamic by having to ask permission. I might feel different if it was just scene play. However, I believe it is a fairly common thing, though I tend to view guys who do that as insecure.

Once I was doing a scene in a club and a guy asked if he could rub her bottom after a spanking. I enjoyed telling him no...lol.

All in all I don't see an ethical problem with setting up D/s rules even in poly. At worst it will only limit potential partners for Ponytail. I'm sure he could still find some partners though. I could see having fun with some of the restrictions you've laid out.
 
I could see having fun with some of the restrictions you've laid out.

I am happy to report that this was the effect it had on Ponytail. ;)

I just got back from his house. After some initial hesitation about it limiting his pool of potential partners, he got super into the idea of me having that kind of control. So, at least for now, it seems like it would be a good fit.
 
I am happy to report that this was the effect it had on Ponytail. ;)

I just got back from his house. After some initial hesitation about it limiting his pool of potential partners, he got super into the idea of me having that kind of control. So, at least for now, it seems like it would be a good fit.


That's awesome!
 
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