Love story short,

JapinaTricycle

New member
Hi,

This is my first time coming on such forums (polyamory), and I want to introduce myself to this topic, but especially find the right answers.... I'm still quite confused (am I poly?).

My first time knowing about polyamory was like 2 years ago when I started looking at my options... I thought having an open relationship was the solution at the time, but finally found out about polyamory after some research. I thought I would "try it". But is that being polyamory? I'm not sure if this idea is coming out from me being unhappy in my monogamous relationship, or if I really am polyamorous.

This part is a bit longer, but here's my story:

I'm a man in his 30s. I've been married for the past 6 years and been in that relationship with for 8. The relationship I have is good, but in the end it's like I need more... I haven't always been always happy either, but I was in love with her from the start, and loved her (periodically) until now.

Two years ago, I wasn't happy with her again and asked her if she would accept me having another relationship. She refused, so I broke up and started looking... I dated, but ended being even unhappier, and went back to her, after feeling I still loved her.

That's when I found out about polyamory. The next phase was convincing her, but it barely worked. She accepted it, but felt very hurt. That made me feel like I was cheating. I remember her saying she didn't want to feel like that again and not to tell her if I was having "an affair" the next time. I was upfront with being polyamorous to both, but the new relationship didn't work out, and I felt a lot of friction I didn't like, with the concept, so I went back to being monogamous.

Some time passed, and things turned sour again. This is about where I am now.

I felt abandoned by my wife and went dating online (I believed this was cheating, but washed my hands off since this was her wish). With her, I realized the more space I gave, the better our relationship was. With my new date, which is a LDR, she gave me the attention and happiness I needed. With that renewed happiness, I fell back in love with my wife. And shocked myself realizing I was protecting her by not telling her, while I regained the energy necessary to fall back in love with her again.

The new girl knows about my marital connection, but I lied saying my wife and I weren't together anymore (which I believed, but feared retaliation). We're in love with each other, so I thought it was fair to move into a(n "exclusive") relationship, because I was determined to divorce to enter a new monogamous relationship, but I quickly broke up for feeling guilty of cheating towards her, and now I realize I love both.

So I'm entangled in a monogamous love triangle, but think I may not be interested in just changing partner, but clearly polyamory.

I'm afraid that trying to enter a polyamorous relationship again would create more problems, because it would make my partner unhappy, and if I decided to leave her, it would leave me feeling extremely alone, and so I should just content myself with a monogamous relationship again instead.

If finding a new monogamous relationship is close to impossible in my case, I don't want to imagine what it's like to find someone willing to accept my polyamory...

So I've finally joined this forum to find likely-minded people, and hopefully find a few answers and solutions.

My questions are:
1: Am I a cheater, polyamorous, or both?
2: What would you tell the 2 women and do in my situation if you were me?
 
Hi JapinaTricycle - and welcome to the Forum! While there is an ongoing debate as to the best possible definition for polyamory, there is a general consensus that polyamory only exists with the knowledge and consent of all involved - openness and honesty in relationships are key characteristics of polyamory. Polyamory is a specific subset of consensual non-monogamy - CNM. Swinging and sexually open/don't ask don't tell (DADT) relationships are others types of CNM. And, of course, non-consensual non-monogamy is just "plain old cheating".

While your effort to post on this forum for answers to your situation is commendable and points to good intent, your situation, as described, is not what most poly folks would call "poly" - certainly not "good" or "ethical" poly. With your girlfriend, you are being dishonest about your marital status - certainly not within the guideline of "knowledge and consent of all involved". And while your wife may have seen to given you a blanket DADT consent, most poly folks generally feel that DADT is not actually poly since the various parties do not have knowledge of one another and there is not specific consent. Additionally, your wife's "consent" appears to be "coerced" - a strong word, I know, but not uncommon when one partner in a marriage wants to transition to poly and the other really doesn't (as your wife obviously didn't - she felt very hurt) but does so anyway out of fear of losing their partner and marriage - or, more altruistically, out of love for them, but while actually resenting the situation.

So, most experienced polyamorists would not view your situation as poly - perhaps open to some extent, but not in the healthiest manner. Your choices are to continue as you have with some dishonesty with the girlfriend, and a DADT agreement with your wife, divorce your wife and explore ethical polyamory, or drop the girlfriend and focus on honest monogamy with your wife.

I suspect others may comment on your introduction as well. There is a lot of experience in polyamory on this forum and I would suggest you include whatever input you receive in your processing. Also feel free to post specific thoughts and questions to the Poly Relationships Corner and General Poly Discussion sections as well. These sections are quite active and you are certain to receive good responses.

Again - kudos on making the effort to join the forum and seek experienced opinions about your situation. Best of luck on whichever path you choose! Al
 
Yeah, good on you for trying to figure a way to resolve this ethically. Right now it sounds like a bit of a mess.

Does you gf still think you're about to leave your wife for her? If so, having been in your gf's shoes once, please just tell her you're not, or else you're holding the rest of her life to ransom. Let her make informed decisions about her participation in your relationship.

Likewise, let your wife make informed decisions about her participation in your relationship. You say things are currently sour between you two, and you've broken up before but you were even unhappier without her...

Perhaps you could consider being single again for real and learning how to be happy by yourself. Then you can find someone more compatible in the future.
 
Greetings JapinaTricycle,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

I had a look at your other thread, and responded briefly. Basically, you need to go monogamous if you are going to stay in a relationship with someone who can't tolerate polyamory. But you don't have to stay in that relationship. You have to consider that option too.

Your situation is a little bit different in that your wife has basically given you "permission to cheat." An extreme version of DADT. She doesn't *really* want you to cheat, but she would prefer that over knowing you were seeing someone else. So, in that sense it is alright for you to cheat, but you have to remember, what your wife would *really* prefer is that you not see anyone else.

As for the new girl, I definitely think you should come clean and let her know that you and your wife are still together, and that your wife doesn't want poly even though she gives you permission to cheat. The more honesty you can offer, the better.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

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Welcome aboard!
 
Setting aside the poly and cheating here. You have been in one relationship for about half your life, which you started at a young age. You mention not wanting to break up because you would feel lonely.

Basically, you bought into the whole monogamy thing hook,line, and sinker. Then we are told we must preserve this pairing at all costs.

Are you really happy with your wife? Its okay if you're not. If you aren't happy, then the obvious thing is to end it. Poly isn't going to make a bad marriage any better.
 
I'm sorry you struggle.

The new girl knows about my marital connection, but I lied saying my wife and I weren't together anymore (which I believed, but feared retaliation). We're in love with each other, so I thought it was fair to move into a(n "exclusive") relationship, because I was determined to divorce to enter a new monogamous relationship, but I quickly broke up for feeling guilty of cheating towards her, and now I realize I love both.

Why the rush to commit to the new woman? You can't just have a period of being single and dating WITHOUT going steady or making deeper commitments? Slow stuff down?

I'm afraid that trying to enter a polyamorous relationship again would create more problems, because it would make my partner unhappy, and if I decided to leave her, it would leave me feeling extremely alone, and so I should just content myself with a monogamous relationship again instead

It doesn't sound like your wife is happy as it is. I get that you don't want her to feel worse, but perhaps change is what is needed so you BOTH can feel better eventually? I'm not sure resigning yourself to a monogamous marriage you are meh about is the solution so you both feel better. She's not really getting the monogamous marriage she wants and you are not really getting the polyamorous relationship you seem to want.

Are you afraid to be alone? :confused: Are you wanting to have a "secured" GF before leaving wife so you don't have to be alone?

Some people are afraid to be alone. If you happen to be, and are largely answering to that fear rather than to your higher values? Then that might be what is leading you to problematic choices.

If you are not clear on what you value in relationships, that also might be leading you to problematic choices.

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

Some of the sheets there might help you start sorting all that out for yourself.

I think you could start making better choices. Even if the price of admission toward healthier relating and living more authentically means a period of being on your own.

If finding a new monogamous relationship is close to impossible in my case, I don't want to imagine what it's like to find someone willing to accept my polyamory...

What IS your way of doing polyamory? Right now the dating offer sounds murky. Kinda like...

"My wife doesn't want to do poly. She thinks it is cheating. But I can see others because we have a DADT agreement where I just don't have to tell her about who I'm seeing. I call that polyamory. She calls that cheating where she doesn't have to know. I also have an LDR GF who thinks I'm separated. Actually, I'm in love with my wife again. I wonder if I'm a cheater and not really sure I'm poly. Wanna poly date me?"​

I don't think many people would jump at that kind of dating offer.

You also aren't exactly giving yourself the chance to date much. You seem to want to leap from the meh marriage to a quick divorce and then monogamous commitment to the LDR GF. Where's the polyamory in that? Or even just the dating part?

My questions are:
1: Am I a cheater, polyamorous, or both?

Well, if your current agreements with your spouse are DADT, then technically you aren't breaking agreements.

I'm not sure if the agreement was made in good faith though. They are not poly sounding agreements.

It sounds more like "lalalalala-I don't want to hear this!" ostrich with head in sand for wife. To her you are cheating on the marriage -- she just doesn't want to know. You don't sound like you feel great about it either. It sounds like maybe you took what you could get because something is better than nothing. It let you come out some from the ill fitting marriage. The marriage itself sounds like your fallback place -- in case "better" doesn't arrive. And now having lived with this agreement for a while you find it doesn't feel good. And you aren't sure if "better" will arrive or not.

So I'm not sure this type of agreement is serving either of you really well. Wife doesn't feel you, you don't feel good. You aren't cheating on it, but it's not helping you be your best and most authentic self either.

I wonder if (being honest and up front) might serve you better than this agreement is serving you?

2: What would you tell the 2 women and do in my situation if you were me?

I would tell wife you don't want to do monogamy any more and this DADT agreement thing does not work either. It makes you feel yucky. You prefer to honestly try polyamory. If that is a deal breaker for her? That's not the kind of marriage she signed up for? Say that you understand that and you prefer to talk about what a peaceful divorce might look like rather than enter new yucky agreements.

I think that if your wife basically wants a monogamous marriage and you cannot provide that? The most loving thing to do is stop taking up her Sweetie spot. So she can find that kind of relating with someone else over time. To keep taking up the spouse spot from fear of being alone or not being able to find "better" -- doesn't sound esp loving to me. Esp when you cannot deliver the type of relating she wants and that type isn't really the type YOU want anyway. It's not honest relating. :(

You could also practice more honest relating by telling GF that things are up and down with wife. Because they are. It's not actually a separation and you apologize if you led her to think that. If GF wants to hang in there while you sort yourself and your marriage out? Or if she prefers to take a time out while you do that work? You could make her aware of what's going on with you so she can choose how to participate best with you.

And then even if things are still sorting, at least the load is a bit less murky for you. You are doing what you can to shed some light and clarity on things.

Galagirl
 
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May I ask a question? You only say you're not happy with your wife at times, but you don't explore the reasons for considering non-monogamy.
So why do you want polyamory? What's your positive drive?
What is it that you're unhappy about, what's your negative drive?
Why do you think it's non-monogamy that will fix it?
Setting aside being torn because of dishonesty, are you happy having two partners?
 
To my mind, it doesn't sound like a particularly stable or happy marriage. Neither you or your wife are getting everything you need, nor are either of you able to give the other what they need in order to feel fulfilled in the relationship.

You MAY be inclined towards polyamory - the jury is still out on that one - however, the situation "as is" does not reflect the values of ethical polyamory.

For one thing, your wife may have grudging consented to a DADT agreement, but she sounds far from happy about the idea of you being with another woman, and probably only "agreed" you could be with others (as long as she doesn't have to hear about it) because she's afraid you'll walk... again. This is a very emotionally unstable position to find herself in for the second time.

For another, I believe you ARE cheating... on your girlfriend. You persuaded her to enter what SHE thinks is an "exclusive" (mono) relationship, without telling her you'd had a change of heart and now do NOT intend to divorce your wife... you are NOT actually separated... and in fact, you're still in love with your wife. GF did NOT sign up for this kind of arrangement and is being kept in the dark, therefore it's both cheating and very unfair to her.

As I see it, your options are to:

a.) Delve deeper into the source/s of unhappiness within your marriage and see if you still WANT or can salvage anything from this relationship - probably with the help of relationship counselling.

b.) Do some reading and research on ETHICAL non-monogamy/polyamory to try to determine if you've actually got a polyamorous nature, and this is the reason you've not felt fully content within the confines of only one, monogamous relationship. IF this is truly who you are and what you want... you'll probably always feel there's something missing from your marriage. IF you elect to stay married/mono, you will have to come to terms with that aspect of yourself and find other ways to fill the void that don't include cheating or having cheating-like relationships.

c.) Divorce wife to be with girlfriend ethically, as you said you would. And also to set your wife free to pursue eventual happiness elsewhere.

d.) Divorce your wife AND break-up with current girlfriend, and stay single for a period of time, in order to process all of this and decide what you REALLY need and want... before getting back with either or entering a new relationship, lest you cause further harm to "innocent" parties.

e.) Come clean about your deception to girlfriend, and see if she's willing to wait - perhaps put the relationship on hold - while you sort out your marriage and personal life apart from her.

f.) Seek individual therapy in order to unpack all of the above before making any big decisions. "Know thyself" is right up there with honesty when it comes to harm minimisation regarding intimate relationships.
 
Am I poly?

Hi all, thank you so much for your input,

I think it's been a great idea for me to come on these forums. However, I believe the reason I came here is still to judge if I am poly or not. I'm kind of like this 14-year old queer boy wondering what's wrong with him: gay or not?

What you guys define on a line of being consentual or not, I define closer to a sexual orientation. In other words, being polyamorous is not about choice. It's about being who you are.

If I am poly, then my choices become clearer on what I should do next. Same if I'm not, and I am probably going to feel relieved that I am not.
But if I am wondering, chances are probably on the side that I'm truly poly.

What do you guys think? Is polyamory a personality and in-born trait, or basically just a different lifestyle and prefered love style?
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=396211#post396211

And how can I tell if I am poly? Can you tell me yourself if you think I am?
Am I poly, or unhappy in my marriage?
 
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What do you guys think? Is polyamory a personality and in-born trait, or basically just a different lifestyle and preferred love style?

I've seen this question addressed a number of times in the numerous books that I have read on the subject as well as in online discussions. The consensus view, imo, seems to be that for some it is definitely a lifestyle choice, while others believe it is more akin to a sexual orientation. So, according to actual practicing polyamorists, it might be either - depending on the individual.

For me, it is most certainly a lifestyle choice. I made a conscious choice to learn to be poly by making an intentional effort to break free of my monogamous conditioning - after my wife asked me to open our marriage so that she could explore her resurgent feelings for an old college boyfriend. I was eventually successful and now self identify as poly, and live in a polyamorous marriage, with my wife and I both having another partner each. And, now, even if we should choose to return to a life of monogamy in practice, I would never again be truly monogamous it outlook.

I have seen others post on our forum that they are certain that, for them, poly is an orientation, or their natural state of being in regard to relationships.

However, having a natural desire and/or ability to have multiple loving, sexual relationships does not in itself make one "poly". The practice of polyamory is also an "ethical" system, which at the very least includes ensuring the knowledge and consent of all involved. Other multiple relationship arrangements may be open, but without knowledge and consent (perhaps honesty and integrity), they are not polyamorus (by definition, slippery as it is).

I will leave your remaining questions about your specific situation to others, either here or on your other post.

Best of luck on resolving your dilemma - once again, I find your efforts commendable. Al
 
Are you afraid to be alone?
Galagirl

Absolutely, clearly, yes. I couldn't care less about making friends because I consider such relationships superficial, untrustworthy, and therefore priorize deeper, meaningful relationships instead.

Are you wanting to have a "secured" GF before leaving wife so you don't have to be alone?
Galagirl

Without the kind of special connection I could have with anyone, I would feel meaningless. But for physical reasons, yes, not just for emotional ones.
 
I mean all this kindly ok? :eek:

What do you guys think? Is polyamory a personality and in-born trait, or basically just a different lifestyle and prefered love style?

FWIW?

I think you seem to limit yourself a lot with "Either this thing, or that thing" kind of thinking. While not acknowledging the possibility for "Both this AND that" thinking. Like for some people polyamory might be BOTH a personality/in-born trait thing AND a relationship model/lifestyle/preferred love style thing.

And how can I tell if I am poly? Can you tell me yourself if you think I am? Am I poly, or unhappy in my marriage?

If you want me to guess? Well, I might guess wrong. Here is my guess...

I think you don't sound happy in your marriage. Happy people in marriages don't write like you do, and don't cheat like you have in the past, and don't do weird sounding DADT with wife, and don't mislead LDR GF as you are presently doing.

I think you are a questioning, fearful person at this time. I think you have to figure out how to quell your fears. I think if you need more help with all of that? You could try to find a counselor.

You sound like the kind of person who wants to learn/understand by doing. Like to get out and go date -- so you can discover if what you need is monogamous relating with more compatible people than your current partners, non-monogamy, polyamory or WHAT... but with more honest foundations than past relationships.

You don't seem to know yourself very well. I don't know what your intrapersonal and interpersonal skills are actually like. I get the impression both could use work.

I think the very idea of leaving your present relationships to go start living in a new way is hard for you because you also struggle with fear of being alone. So you are have ping-ponging internal conflict:

  • Knowledge that you and partners are not esp compatible and participating in these relationships in a meh way is causing you unhappy feelings. Plus the worry that you aren't gonna change anything and will choose to remain stuck.
  • Knowledge that servicing your fear of being alone is preventing you from making changes in your life so you are more able to find more compatible partners who ARE up for the kind of relating you want to have.
  • Worry that if you do take the chance in changing your life and how you relate with people? That maybe you don't find new romantic partners and you don't have friends for company either. Then you don't even have the incompatible romantic partners to fall back on any more. Since they currently also serve as your social support network.

Like you want to know it will all turn out ok in the end before taking the leap, but you cannot know it without leaping first. Outcomes are discovered after taking the trip, not before. Paradox.

I think you lack faith -- the confidence that choosing actions rooted in good character and good values will yield the best outcome in the end even when you do not see how right now. You don't seem to exercise that. I think you could.

Which is why I suggested you actually sit for a while with your values and organize them. In actual order. Then determine if you are living true to your values or not. If not? Take steps to fly true.

Try to live so you honor all of them. If a situation arises where you cannot have all of them? You decide to answer to the highest values rather than the lowest ones. So you can be more at peace with the choices you do make.

If you live answering to "I am afraid of being alone" a lot? Then you might have to challenge/change that way of going and give up the value of "I want to be comfortable" for a higher value of "I want to live more authentically."

You become more willing to pay the price of admission. Become willing to experience some short term discomfort while changing your life in favor of long term goals/improvements -- a better life.

You don't seem esp thrilled with how you are living it right now.

I couldn't care less about making friends because I consider such relationships superficial, untrustworthy, and therefore priorize deeper, meaningful relationships instead.

I feel sad for you. You sound like you have never had deep, meaningful friendships. And what you call "friends" I call "acquaintances."

I wonder if taking the time to develop more meaningful friendships would help you on the "fear of being alone" thing? So you don't latch on so hard to your romantic relationship like they are your life preserver?

Are you wanting to have a "secured" GF before leaving wife so you don't have to be alone?
Galagirl
Without the kind of special connection I could have with anyone, I would feel meaningless. But for physical reasons, yes, not just for emotional ones.


You may have to make peace that you won't get that. Because if you are honest with wife that you want polyamorous relationships now, she might want to get off the bus before you drive on to Poly Town. She doesn't have to choose to take this trip with you. LDR GF might also not choose to take the trip with you.

If your sense of meaningfulness and value comes from who you are partnered to? Rather than from inside you? If so, that's another area you could work on. You could work to become a whole person standing on your own two feet whose value is derived from WITHIN.

It's ok to take up the space you do in Life.

Galagirl
 
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I will add a thought that I saw mentioned in the other thread, and which I have written about before as well. I do believe that it is possible for almost anyone to be attracted to more than one person at a time, and to have romantic feelings for more than one person at a time. I would guess that most folks have experienced this at some point in their life, certainly by the time they reach middle age. As was said in the other thread, it is so common that it scarcely needs to be named.

The pivotal point, however, is whether an individual acts on these feelings - or not, and that is where the monogamists and polyamorists diverge. Those that choose to act on them in an ethical manner (knowledge and consent of all involved) are obviously more inclined to polyamory, be it by nature or lifestyle choice. Al
 
Hi JapinaTricycle,

I looked at your new thread, and responded there briefly. Basically, how much poly is strictly a choice versus an orientation varies from one person to the next. How poly you are is a function of how you feel, and only you can know how you feel, so I don't think others can tell you whether you are poly, at least not reliably. You seem to me to be poly, but I might be wrong. You're not happy in your marriage, and neither is your wife. The two of you want contrasting things. She wants mono, you want poly. Your hope seems to be that somehow you can convince her to accept poly, and that the people on this forum can tell you how to do that. But to me your wife seems adamant in her position. She isn't about to budge. Technically it's conceivable that you could wear her down over the course of many months or years, but you have to decide how many years you are willing to wait.

Can you be happy without poly?
Something to think about.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I think it's been a great idea for me to come on these forums. However, I believe the reason I came here is still to judge if I am poly or not. I'm kind of like this 14-year old queer boy wondering what's wrong with him: gay or not?

What you guys define on a line of being consentual or not, I define closer to a sexual orientation. In other words, being polyamorous is not about choice. It's about being who you are.

If I am poly, then my choices become clearer on what I should do next. Same if I'm not, and I am probably going to feel relieved that I am not.
But if I am wondering, chances are probably on the side that I'm truly poly.


And how can I tell if I am poly? Can you tell me yourself if you think I am?
Am I poly, or unhappy in my marriage?

First: most people throughout history have been entirely capable of falling in love with more than one person at a time. Therefore, I hardly see anything unique enough in it to determine it' s an 'orientation.' It's simply human nature to fall in love and be attracted to others.

Second: even if you decide it's an 'orientation,' that doesn't change the fact that you retain the CHOICE of how to ACT. It's merely a desire, and calling a desire an 'orientation' does not give us carte blanche permission to take what we want.

Third: you're ignoring the real problem: YOU are unhappy. You strike me as the equivalent of a comfort-eater. You're using relationships to try to fill in something empty and restless inside you. You're unhappy--so it must be the wife. You want your wife or a new girlfriend to 'make' you happy.

My suggestion is you forget poly, forget girlfriends, take a breath and spend some serious time reading up on happiness, reading a bit by Viktor Frankl, thinking about what would really fulfill you and give you meaning in life, and perhaps get some counseling.

The happiest people are usually those thinking about helping others and putting good in the world rather than those thinking about getting what they want. Spend eighteen months focusing on that and see how your happiness level changes.
 
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