Feelings and cultural imprint

Michaels

New member
Me again.

Had a talk with wife and she has some points from her childhood phase in a big mono family with a violent cheating father.
The mother was totally dependent on a not at least with a minimum of respect behaving man and had no support net anywhere and 7 children.

(sorry english is not my native language)

I showed her (asssuring her before that i hurt her feelings now on purpuose and that i do not mean what i say) that the "blackmail" sentence "if you do not allow me to fuck other women, i will go!" is the trigger she has deep in her and was the "string" her father pulled on her mother.

Lot of tears, stories, hugging, kissing. She has deep emotional wounds down there.

Now Question:

Better to heal the wounds with the possible new Metamour or better to heal her before?

Might be we lose the "Momentum" if we all wait for her to heal, there are allways "time windows" in attraction?

Books i read to make the transition smooth say "never build something on a foundation with cracks in it (?native language prob, hope you understand)" but - this house on our side has been solid for more than 35 years. Even with the small cracks.

The possible metamour we want to attach has a relationship (she tells, he is ok with this) and had a breakup and a complicated father situation as well.

What are ways?

I need some "mental sparring partner" to sort my confused mind away from forcing them in a wrong way or come into a situation where my conflict solving abilities are not capable.
 
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A "I chicken out" attack at the attracted metamour........

She can NOT come this Sunday, she will come with her man next weekend....

(my wife did put the condomes in the drawer -you never know when you need them- and is away with the dogs so we can have time - and she (metamour) chickens like a blushing teenie. so cute...)

I feel like 16 again.
 
In my opinion, it is better for your wife to heal her wounds *before* you become involved with someone else. It sounds like your wife wants to please you and wants you to be happy, but it also sounds like she has a history where she might have learned that the woman always has to sacrifice herself for the man. So she might agree to you seeing other people but not be able to manage her fears and insecurity if she has not taken the time to work through the issues from her past first.

I can understand wanting to act on your new attraction as soon as possible, but to me, that does not seem like a loving way to behave toward your wife. She has told you why this is a difficult situation for her. It sounds like she wants to overcome the difficulty, but you can't expect that to happen instantly just because she's told you what the problem is. She needs your love and support, and deserves your undivided attention while she works on healing from her past. Dating someone else can wait.
 
If you loved your wife you would not ask her to sacrifice her emotional well being and force her into a situation she does not want..

It is very selfish to torture your partner that way.
 
Hi Michael,
My understanding of the players in your situation is ...

  • Karin = your wife.
  • Katharina = your bookkeeper. You are interested in Katharina, is that correct? Karin is interested in Katharina, is that correct?
  • Metamour (or possible metamour) = Katharina (the same person as above). Is that correct?
  • Katharina has a boyfriend, a man with a beta personality. Can we give this man a name? How about "Beta Man?" Something else?
Please correct me on anything I got wrong in the above list.

Karin's emotional wounds, are they triggered by your relationship with Katharina? These wounds sound pretty serious, serious enough that they need the attention of a therapist. As far as your relationship with Katharina goes, I am thinking that if you move ahead with it, that you do so slowly, very slowly, and check in with Karin often to see how she is feeling. At any rate that's my perspective.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Karin - Wife to me since 35 Y
Katharina - Bookkeeper and friend since 10 Y
Timo - Katarinas BF since 5 Y
Michael - Me

I care for my wife and her emotional stability and integrity, i will never force anything upon her.

Karins emotional wounds are from the family she comes from, her father and the first relationships she had, before our marriage.

It started years ago when Katharina had a crush on my when she divorced her husband. The couple and we where lose friends and met socially.
Katharina worked bookkeeping parttime for one of the factories i owned back that time.

I like her very much, she is somehow characterwise like my wife, a little (not much) younger, but a little more on the realistic less on the emotional side.
Fun to be arround, into animals, more the "nature/garden/horse" type than the "city party animal".

We took her with us for a few week long vaccation some years ago to one house we own in scandinavia.

It was pleasant, relaxed and calm, the way i would like to live together with both of them.

I discussed with Karen to change our life and buy some property either in scandinavia or canada to do some raising of horses or whatever the women wanted to do.
Katharina chickened out and said no (we accept a no at first word and do not try to press), so we did some other investments and we employ her parttime as bookkeeper for our private investment companies.

Some time ago the sexual tension between us rises again, so that was the point where i told her she could be with us, but has to leave Timo.

That is how Things are.

At the moment i study how polyarmory works without hurting people and insee that communication ist a main issue. I read books, talk with karen, think about possible ways and futures.

In the last communications with karen we figured out that sex is not her "trigger", it is fidelity and honesty. She would be triggered deeply if she on the one hand lets katharina in our relation and katharina would ever talk bad about her.

Karen is the type of personality who would give her last dime to a honest friend but would use a bazooka on someone hurting one of her friends.

We discussed on Triggerwords today and it seems there are some old issues which have to be solved.

She was part of a cheating game before our marriage and that dumb stupid asshole even took advantage of her money (and she did not have much back then). She was the "second wife" at that time - i think she did nit tell all trigger details there, but i did not care too much yet as it is >38y away. It was not "polyamor" but "inconsent" without knowledge of the married wife, she found out through a friend.
But the actual situation is bringing it to the top again.
 
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If you loved your wife you would not ask her to sacrifice her emotional well being and force her into a situation she does not want..

It is very selfish to torture your partner that way.

Dagferi, i feel agression in the way you formulate your advise.

I feel like someone putting a judgementional statement upon me without even trying to understand the deeper needs and plans of the involved persons.

I do not get the idea behind "if you loved your wife", "youd .....".

I LOVE MY wife. Full. Stop.

I have feelings for Katharina as well.

Both feel very well beeing together.

We are not talking about "group sex" we are talking about being arround each other.

As i know that the sexual tension between us will lead to sexual action i will not risk emotional damage of any of the involved persons.

So what do you suggest?

Drive the feelings away, drive katharina away? Possible. But don't you think a emotional stable relationship between all of us - even if this is more komplex to handle - can enhance the life of all three of us?

Only Timo was not on my radar.
 
In my opinion, it is better for your wife to heal her wounds *before* you become involved with someone else. It sounds like your wife wants to please you and wants you to be happy, but it also sounds like she has a history where she might have learned that the woman always has to sacrifice herself for the man. So she might agree to you seeing other people but not be able to manage her fears and insecurity if she has not taken the time to work through the issues from her past first.

I can understand wanting to act on your new attraction as soon as possible, but to me, that does not seem like a loving way to behave toward your wife. She has told you why this is a difficult situation for her. It sounds like she wants to overcome the difficulty, but you can't expect that to happen instantly just because she's told you what the problem is. She needs your love and support, and deserves your undivided attention while she works on healing from her past. Dating someone else can wait.

I agree >75% with you.

I will help her through the fears first, help her clean the old issues and process step by step.

I want that sparkle in her eyes.
 
In the last communications with karen we figured out that sex is not her "trigger", it is fidelity and honesty. She would be triggered deeply if she on the one hand lets katharina in our relation and katharina would ever talk bad about her.

We discussed on Triggerwords today and it seems there are some old issues which have to be solved.

She was part of a cheating game before our marriage and that dumb stupid asshole even took advantage of her money (and she did not have much back then). She was the "second wife" at that time - i think she did nit tell all trigger details there, but i did not care too much yet as it is >38y away. It was not "polyamor" but "inconsent" without knowledge of the married wife, she found out through a friend.
But the actual situation is bringing it to the top again.

Yes, polyamory or even the potential to enter into a poly relationship, does tend to bring old wounds and issues to the surface.

It was that way with me last year, when myself and my partners attempted to develop a "triad" type of relationship.

Due to my own past issues - my first boyfriend cheated on me with several people including my best friend and a close relative (and the pain and humiliation that situation caused) - I suffered tremendous feelings of jealousy and insecurity whenever I contemplated consenting to my current partners being "together" in a sexual and emotional sense.

These ancient, almost-buried wounds have a way of worming their way to the surface when a similar situation triggers the sort of memories we'd rather forget. If trauma isn't effectively dealt with at the time, or soon afterward, it becomes suppressed... yet it still remains, hidden like a landmine which is capable of exploding with force when someone stumbles over it, even decades later.

Knowing what you've now told us, above, about your wife Karin's past... I agree that it'd be foolhardy to simply move to include Katharina in your lives WITHOUT doing the necessary work to uncover and heal Karin's past traumas associated with infidelity (from her past relationship) and fear of losing a partner if she doesn't give into his wishes to have sex with another (which stems from her father's attitude and behaviour toward her mother.)

She could benefit greatly from counselling, especially if she is still interested in pursuing something with Katharina (either for herself or for/with you).

Then there is the existence of Timo in Katharina's life. You say you didn't bargain on their involvement - but it seems you need to consider it now, because he isn't going anywhere, if Katharina doesn't plan to break from him just so she can be with you+Karin.

AFTER Karin works on her issues (with the help of a therapist and your support) you may still be interested in having something with Katharina... and perhaps she will still be interested in developing the relationship with you and/or Karin also. Time will tell.

Then, if she's still with Timo, you all will have to decide what "shape" these relationships will take. Maybe Timo only wants to be with Katharina, romantically, but has no objection to her being with you and Karin ALSO.

If so, then it may be possible to enter into a form of "parallel poly", in which Katharina joins you and/or your wife, part-time, while maintaining her own relationship with Timo separately. You could all socialise together whenever you all wanted to, but the triad (Karin+you+Katharina) would remain separately, sexually and emotionally from the dyad that is (Katharina+Timo).
 
Your wife has told you she DOES NOT want polyamory right now. You are just not listening. She watched her mother bend to the wishes of her husband and she is doing the same.

Look poly destroys the best of relationships. You do not drag a broken and fragile partner through polyamory.

My annoyance with you comes from the fact that you are willing to put YOUR wants above your wife's needs. She does not need the stress and sacrifice that comes with poly right now.

She is not giving you a joyous yes. She is sacrificing herself to make you happy. Guess what sometimes you do not get to have your cake and eat it too.
 
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If things are such simple?

I told her, that i am not into the monogamous thinking of relations or the sequential polygamy game before our marriage and also later. So this theme is in between us (with highs and lows) for nearly 35 years.

Nevertheless i am with her for now a long time. I live monogamous since long with her.

I promised to love her for eternity. Several times. So my feelings are very clear.

Our sex drives are highly missmatched, i am the one who bends to the extreme to make her comfortable. Actually I suppress my feelings so she can live her "princess" dream.

We have a arrangement where she "allows" me to buy whatever sex i want if i want a young women - as long as there are no "feelings/emotions" involved.
But i do not do that as that is not a thing i like or i am into.
Did this approx 20-30 years ago some times.

She is totally ok with "sexworking women". When the economy was very down in 2008/9 arround we decided to buy some bigger "cathouses", as those things are a little more independent of economic cycles.
After some visits and negotiations with owners we dropped that idea as the business income in that area is too low for the worktime you invest amd the low "return on invest" there and we did other anticyclical investments.

During asian business trips she has been with me to "whorehouses"'or "massage palaces" - it is type of business culture there and she seems not to be uncomfortable with it and likes massages also.
After she realized that it highers her social value to be with to such a place with the business partners amd has her massage too and that even the translator women are with (they are from high ranked european universities) at those places she could feel confident and relaxed and enjoy the offered services which the hosts organize there.

So we are in a situation where i am at a stuck place and neglect my nature and needs.

But what are your solutions to the future?

For me staying in my place and play the impotent loving granddad of the big family?
Arrange myself to regular whorehouse trips where i do not feel good?

Our life had been such a rollercoaster since merriage so that we never had the time to really clean all of our emotional heavy baggages which are burried down in our souls (yes there are some in mine too).

You tell me "bending her" is a bad thing.

But with that statement you imply that "bending me permanent" to "not break her" is a better way.

Have you ever thought about both sides of that medal?

What if i cannot go against my nature at some point in future and run into a breakup? Will this be the better version of a future?

I saw this problem at the beginning of the marriage - it derives from human nature.

The muslimic solution of real polygamie (I and we did a lot of business there too) is a lot more intelligent than the christian soution and i allways made my point clear that i prefer that life model.
You would call it polyfidelity.
 
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Better to heal the wounds with the possible new Metamour or better to heal her before?

Our life had been such a rollercoaster since merriage so that we never had the time to really clean all of our emotional heavy baggages which are burried down in our souls (yes there are some in mine too)

Could heal any lingering wounds and clear up and lingering emotional heavy baggage before trying to do poly.

Might be we lose the "Momentum" if we all wait for her to heal, there are allways "time windows" in attraction?

I do not think entering a new model with baggage/healing still to do is going to help. Like the momentum for WHAT? A mess because you jumped in without enough preparation? One can create/find other opportunities later when one IS better prepared.

What if i cannot go against my nature at some point in future and run into a breakup? Will this be the better version of a future?*

Yes. If you both turn out to no longer be compatible, there is too much baggage to heal? Parting ways frees you both. Then you are free TO seek poly, and she is free FROM poly is that's what she wants.

Galagirl
 
Galagirl you are right, but you neglect the point that i love her.

Parting would hurt her.

Cleaning her soul from old burdens will make her more happy - so, easy choice as long as she is willing to improve.
 
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Galagirl you are right, but you neglect the point that i love her.

I know you love her. It is possible to part with regrets, but still part because you two have grown apart if that is what it turns out to be here. Because you love her.

Parting would hurt her.

And doing wonky poly would do what for her? :confused:

So we are in a situation where i am at a stuck place and neglect my nature and needs.

For me staying in my place and play the impotent loving granddad of the big family?
Arrange myself to regular whorehouse trips where i do not feel good?

You tell me "bending her" is a bad thing. But with that statement you imply that "bending me permanent" to "not break her" is a better way.

Are you saying that these choices would be better? You will bend you instead? And this will be healthy for you? This would not hurt you?

Galagirl
 
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Things are more complicated.

Beside our normal child and grandchildren we have a mentally retarded child together.

Also, even if we would part, we would meet and see regulary as there are a lot of things we run together, even Katharina would have to be arranged to do the financial work for her part.

I do not know if she'd be able to organize a life on her own.
She would have to dig deeper into the parts of life she ignores by now, e.g. financials, business and so on.

I would have to learn social skills, as she is organizing this whole part of life.

Also we lead a "perfect life" for family, business and friends.

So her "social status" would drop immedeate.
 
Well, you have to figure out what you value most.

The "perfect life" and "social status" or something else.

There is a "price" for everything.

Galagirl
 
That is surely true.

But in Love and Life i do not count money or evaluate "i like that better than this"
I am realistic but i know that you cannot buy feelings or that you can buy someone to change a feeling, or that you can make point or "value more" decisions in a long term relation.

I am a Gemini born, those never like to make decisions, i want all.

I value dedication as well as i value plurality.
 
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What I have gathered from this thread is that you don't think your wife is capable of functioning on her own. If this IS true, than that needs to be fixed immediately. As long as she is dependent on you, there is a power imbalance and she is not really able to make decisions regarding your her relationship with you from a place of strength.

It seems that you are from a very conservative mindset that the man should be "head of the household," and the women, while certainly put on their pedestal, should let the men make the major decisions. You say this is not the case, but every post you have written indicates otherwise.

Your wife is currently in a situation where she HAS to let you have her way or she will not be able to continue to living in a manner that is not a hardship for her as she does not apparently have the skills to do so. So, you are essentially calling the shots, with a pretty wrapping paper that you won't do anything to "hurt" her, even though you aren't really paying attention to what she's really saying.
 
Michaels, I think both your own pressures (lasting so many years) and your wife's pain is understandable.

This is a tough negotiation and there's no easy fix. It IS possible for your wife to work through her issues WHILE you're pursuing polyamory but the pain of doing so will be multiplied. If she is willing to go through it, you'd best take it very, very seriously. It is an enormous concession on her part. It will also mean you will have to make serious concessions on your end. So the ideal situation you might have formed in your head about pursuing poly? Forget it. You'll have to carve out space very carefully, acknowledge your wife at every step, and have the stamina and fortitude to support both you and her during this trying time. With no guarantees about it all working out.

Either way there will be pain. See at least if you can build something you can all look forward to in the future. Something that is good for everyone involved.
 
What I have gathered from this thread is that you don't think your wife is capable of functioning on her own. If this IS true, than that needs to be fixed immediately. As long as she is dependent on you, there is a power imbalance and she is not really able to make decisions regarding your her relationship with you from a place of strength.

It seems that you are from a very conservative mindset that the man should be "head of the household," and the women, while certainly put on their pedestal, should let the men make the major decisions. You say this is not the case, but every post you have written indicates otherwise.

Your wife is currently in a situation where she HAS to let you have her way or she will not be able to continue to living in a manner that is not a hardship for her as she does not apparently have the skills to do so. So, you are essentially calling the shots, with a pretty wrapping paper that you won't do anything to "hurt" her, even though you aren't really paying attention to what she's really saying.

I am conservative from Mindset and choosen lifestyle, absolute right.

But i do not limit her or neither is she dependent on me. She has own factory, appartment buildings and funds.

I have same things so we are financially on eye level. She has a big house, carsm whatever she needs.

I did gift those things to her, so that she can live whatever she wants lifestyle.

But i "call the shots", Katharina is organizing the finance and taxes for both.
She is not interested in money issues.

If she would be told about a hedge or about a leverage or a ROI she would not know what it is about.
But she knows precise if some CEO is good or bad for her interest, she has a "deep radar" there.

So we both function as "team".

What you suppose is that she learns 40 Years of business and i learn 40 Years of social interaction.
That will not work.

What do you mean by "dependent"? That is the main question.

If you mean that she would have to go working somewhere? No. At least not for the next 50 some Years (if there is no worldwide war).

She might not be able to replace all toys or might have to sell a house from time to time, but ok?

But she would need people organizing her wealth as she doesn't know much on expanding wealth.

And that is a real risky thing, where you can lose everything.

That is my fear for her.
 
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