It's a Texlahoma Story

Your phrase "zero entanglement" stood out to me. Not being on the escalator doesn't mean not being entangled, it just means being entangled in a different way.

...

I think you see "entanglement" as the literal, physical evidence and validation of a relationship. The shared home, the paperwork, the shared finances, etc. And that is one definition and, for some, one component of entanglement. But it isn't the only way of looking at it.

For me, yes, the tangible, legal entanglement is what it means to be committed to a relationship. I do understand that other people see things differently. I get it logically, but I can't *feel* it, if that makes sense. As much as I might try, I just can't.

I do a lot of musing here about the definitions of things... What is commitment, what does it mean to be in love, what differentiates friendship from a romantic relationship. One thing I've learned from everyone here is that we all define these things a little differently.

Another thing I've learned is that as much as I might want to adopt someone else's definitions, I can't. I can respect how others see things, I can mull them over, try them on, appreciate them. But I can't convince myself to feel something I don't feel.

I'm probably always going to see the Relationship Escalator as the thing that defines commitment, entanglement, partnership, and being "in a relationship". Everything else seems like ... friendship... Different kinds of friendship, sure, some romantic, some sexual, some emotionally intimate. I wouldn't say my marriage is necessarily always going to be more important than my friendships - but I also wouldn't say they are equal. They are different. Too different to compare, too different to weigh against each other.

Maybe I'll feel differently someday... But I've spent the past year trying to change my perspective and it's only caused me confusion and unhappiness. So for now, at least, I'm letting go of that need to upend my entire worldview and be someone I'm not. Instead I'm going to focus on figuring out how to do non monogamy in a way that is true to myself and fair to the other people involved.
 
Looks like I get an unexpected weekend to myself...

Steph's BFF's mom died :( I think I've mentioned Jen here before, she and Steph were semi-roommates for a while, they've been close forever. Anyway. The funeral is Sunday, so Andy is going to fly up with Steph probably Saturday - Monday.

Of course I *just* turned down a Sat night date with a hot Brit, assuming I'd be at the lake with Andy. Figures :rolleyes:

The whole thing did get me thinking about escalators and entanglement, though. Andy and Steph don't have the marriage or the cohabitation, but they have their own escalator. One that means he's managed to meet her best friend's mom a few times, despite Jen's family living across the country. And one that means he's skipping a weekend at the lake and a day of work, no hesitation, to be there with Steph at the funeral. It's an emotional entanglement, absolutely, but it's also something else.

Spork mentioned something about visiting someone's world vs living in their world. Andy lives in Steph's world. He's not a visitor. He's a part of it. KC, now I'm wondering if that's what you meant??? because I know you and your boyfriend share so much *life* together, even if it's not legal or official.

I've always felt like a visitor in my boyfriends' worlds. No. They were visitors to mine, but when it came to their lives, I was not even a visitor. More like a stranger spying through a window. With Dag it was the damn DADT. With A and Tyler, it was their wives setting up a million rules - ooops sorry "boundaries"- about what was ok and what wasn't.

I'd like to at least feel like a welcome visitor in the life of someone I'm dating. I'd like that not to be contingent on befriending metas - I can be polite to anybody for a few hours, but I don't want to have to earn my time with my boyfriend by behaving however his wife thinks I should.

In my wildest dreams, I cannot imagine a boyfriend flying somewhere just for me - let alone cross country, on two days notice, to attend a funeral. I wonder if I'd think differently about non-escalator relationships if I could experience something like that.

Also, in case it isn't obvious, one of the millions of reasons I love my husband is that he's not just a great husband to me, he's an amazing friend-boy to Steph.
 
I hope I wasn't coming across like I was trying to convince you to see things my way. I was just trying to present another perspective for you to ponder, even if it doesn't work for you.

But yes, the visitor in someone's life vs. living in their world is a big part of what I meant. My boyfriend and I don't live in each others worlds the way Hubby and I do, but we do live in each others worlds.

With what you say, I can understand why you struggle to see anything other than what you and Andy have as a committed relationship. I hope someday you find someone to be for you what Andy is for Steph...if that's what you want.
 
I read all these posts where people are genuinely concerned for their metamours feelings, and I think, maybe I'm too selfish to do poly. Then I see something about compromise, and I think, maybe I'm too stubborn. Because basically, I want what I want, and if I can't get that, I don't want to negotiate and compromise and hope someday things get better... I just want to nope the fuck out of the relationship.
I don't think you are this way. I think you are more then willing to compromise. Just look at all the time spent waiting for Dag's last minute opportunities to meet you. Thet's huge investment.

Andy and Steph don't have the marriage or the cohabitation, but they have their own escalator.
I think you might be up to something here.
 
With what you say, I can understand why you struggle to see anything other than what you and Andy have as a committed relationship. I hope someday you find someone to be for you what Andy is for Steph...if that's what you want.

Thank you. Right now it's not something I'm actively looking for... Maybe someday. I ask myself a lot if I would be happy with that kind of situation, and... I don't know. If I saw the guy as a much loved and very special friend, yes. If I wanted him to be a *partner*, no. In Steph's shoes, I'd be insanely frustrated and resentful of Andy's marriage to me, eventually. I'm lucky as hell that she isn't (or, at least, that Andy shields me from it if she is).

I don't think you are this way. I think you are more then willing to compromise. Just look at all the time spent waiting for Dag's last minute opportunities to meet you. Thet's huge investment.

I don't feel like that person anymore. Or - I don't feel like that person *right now*. I'm in this headspace these days of "I tried it, it didn't make me happy, I don't want to try again." Poly is complicated. Complicated sends my anxiety through the roof. I need something simple and easy right now.

I'm enjoying flirting with a new guy every week or two, going out on dates once in a while. It reminds me that I'm not old and shriveled up yet ;) Andy has been great about helping me work off the sexual energy ... Today I woke him up from a nap begging for playtime, and when we were done, he goes, "so what's the guy's name?" :p

Anything more than that... Who knows. I'm taking it easy on myself these days. Doing the whole self compassion thing finally. I had a rough year, trying to salvage things with Dag, then dealing with the breakup. I've had 3 relationships (4? Do 4 month things count as relationships?) in a row that left me feeling crappy about myself. I have earned some me time, some rest, some fun :)
 
I have earned some me time, some rest, some fun :)

Yes, have fun. I also suggest that, when you read what people post here about how they do poly, you DO NOT consider their experiences to be a standard by which you should somehow measure your own success. Nobody here should be idealized. I think the biggest thing that always trips you up, GFT, is how you always think you have to do it right - whatever "it" is - and you compare yourself to others to make sure. So, go have fun, get laid, go out on dates, or not, whatever you want, and actually let yourself enjoy what you're doing without worrying if you're living up to some poly standard in your head. 'k?
 
I'm trying with the not comparing or idealizing stuff.

It's funny how much importance words have for me, how much weight they carry. It's so much easier for me to say "I'm not poly" than to say "my poly is different". And so much easier to think about having a fwb than redefining what it means to have a boyfriend.

All the words I see people using ... Partner, significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, commitment, romance, relationship... They just have such strong connotations in my mind. I have an insanely difficult time separating those terms from the relationship escalator. The minute I use them, even in my head, my expectations shift.

What's ironic is that my "fwb" doesn't look very different from other people's "non escalator committed romantic relationship" :rolleyes: I don't put limits on feelings, love, time, etc when I label something fwb. It's just my way of saying, I don't expect us to move in together.

And, also, my way of taking the "have to make it work" pressure off myself. Calling something a Committed Relationship makes me feel like I'm obligated to do anything and everything to preserve it, even if it's not good for anyone involved. There's something in my brain that's like... "This will go down on your permanent record" ;) and a break up will be a black mark, a failure, a shame I'll have to carry. Whereas fwb... Might last a few months, might last a few years, might last a few decades, but there's no pressure to keep it going if it's not making both people happy.


On another topic... I get SO CRANKY when I am alone. Seriously. Andy has been gone less than 24 hours and I'm already at loose ends. My mood just sinks when I don't have people around. I can't even find anything to watch on Netflix. So I'm reading (will probably finish 2 books today) running (6 miles!) and chatting with cute boys on okc. My usual self care, minus the beer, because I got an email asking me to come in even earlier than usual tomorrow.
 
Regarding "relationship" vs. "fwb":

Dammit I know right?? I mean that was the problem with my poly was that the "girlfriend" label was making me a crazy person. I felt like I had to try and give the quad at least as much time as I was giving Zen, and going to visit their world to do that was making me feel stretched too thin. I felt like I was trying to do "relationship" but only succeeding in accomplishing "fwb." So I was like, can we just CALL it fwb so I can feel I'm doing...whatever this is...RIGHT?

And everybody processed it like a breakup and then Zen wanted exclusivity and by that point I'm just like fine...whatever it is I was trying to do over there with those people wasn't working anyways, they are all "disappointed" now, fuck it. Sure, Zen. You get the nookie rights. Enjoy. *throwing hands up in the air.* The hell with "complicated."

Regarding "cranky when alone":

Yyyyup. So you're an extrovert, too, hey? I've said, I might have all kinds of plans to get all sorts of cool stuff done when I'm alone, but the reality is I feel like a ghost haunting my space. All restless and I can't settle into doing any activity. I need people.
 
I felt like I was trying to do "relationship" but only succeeding in accomplishing "fwb." So I was like, can we just CALL it fwb so I can feel I'm doing...whatever this is...RIGHT?

This. Exactly. True for pretty much every experience I've had since opening my marriage. I know the words are just words, and what we call it shouldn't matter, but... The label does affect how I look at things. I feel like I can do an awesome job of being a fwb, but I just don't have the time or the room in my life to be a halfway decent girlfriend.
 
And it looks like my alone time will run longer than expected :cool: Andy is going to stay tonight in Jen's hometown then go straight to a work trip, then fly home Wednesday night. My dogs are so tired of my talking to them that they're burying their faces in the sofa and hiding!

I had to be at work crazy early this morning to deal with several kids who arrived over the weekend, so I was frazzled and cranky already... Andy texted a bunch of Steph-related feelingsvomit at 5 am and I had no idea what to say. I guess there was much emotional stuff going on last night with her. Childhood memories and such. On the one hand, I totally understand the "comfort in, vent out" strategy of being supportive to someone who is struggling. On the other... This is NOT stuff I would want a meta hearing about, if I were in her place. So I just told Andy I was sorry they had a rough night, and I loved him, and I had to get to work.

When he gets home we are going to have to have a heart to heart about sharing this type of thing. I actually don't mind Steph hearing most anything, but I'm an open book about my shitty childhood. She is not. So I have no idea how she feels about Andy telling me these things. I'm dreading this because a) I hate poly processing shit in general and b) I don't want to come across as unsupportive or uncaring. It's not like, I don't want to hear it. It's just, I don't want to hear it if I'm not supposed to hear it.
 
As a meta who could be in this position , I have to say it totally helps me to hear that you are respectful of over sharing that can happen in crisis situations. You and Andy know each other so well. I would want you to do exactly what you are doing. Being supportive while also being cognizant of boundaries. You don't think you do poly well a lot of the time, but for what it's worth it seems like you are a great meta.
 
As a meta who could be in this position , I have to say it totally helps me to hear that you are respectful of over sharing that can happen in crisis situations. You and Andy know each other so well. I would want you to do exactly what you are doing. Being supportive while also being cognizant of boundaries. You don't think you do poly well a lot of the time, but for what it's worth it seems like you are a great meta.

Aww, thank you :eek: I find it easy (most of the time, anyway!) with Andy's friend-girls, especially Steph. And I feel for her right now, dealing with this history, realizing that she will never get honesty or clarity about it from her parents generation because they are aging and dying without facing it :(

Andy is the only person she talks to about this, the only person who knows. Which, obviously, makes me even more uncomfortable when he blurts stuff out to me. Part of it is that we are not used to keeping stuff from each other, part of it is that he thinks, Claire deals with child abuse every day! She'll know what to do! But... That's at my JOB. Where, actually, I spend half my time referring people to individual therapy where they can get one on one support.

After thinking some more today, that is exactly what I'm going to say to Andy. A very similar conversation to one I have had daily for 15 years, with families of the kids at work...
"I realize you need support right now, but I can't be the person you vent to or seek advice from, because I am here to help your child/girlfriend/sister, and I need to focus on that. Being the caregiver or partner of an abuse survivor can be exhausting, confusing, and emotionally draining - getting some individual therapy for yourself would give you a safe place to talk about YOUR feelings and also learn more about ways you can offer support."
With some rewording to reference spouse/meta relationships, obviously, and the fact that Steph may not want me to hear these things. (To be blunt - she's usually drunk enough when these talks happen that even if she DID say she was ok with Andy telling me, I wouldn't consider it informed consent.)

I just don't want to ... Get involved isn't exactly the right phrase... Interfere? :confused: Andy is my husband, Steph is a friend, neither of them are my clients, and it would be confusing for everyone if I'm giving Andy advice on what to say and do to help Steph. I just want to hug him and love him and reassure him that everything will be ok in the end.

Boundaries, man. Not easy.
 
I know the words are just words, and what we call it shouldn't matter, but... The label does affect how I look at things. I feel like I can do an awesome job of being a fwb, but I just don't have the time or the room in my life to be a halfway decent girlfriend.
Of course words matter. In my OKC profile, and whenever I meet a guy in person, I say "I'm looking for a lover, not a boyfriend. Do you know what the difference is?" and we talk about it. It usually leads to a good and interesting convo. I have found that it's good to get clear on what I want and let the guy know from the get-go.
 
I wish I knew of a word for the relationship I'm seeking. Lover sounds like it's all about the bedroom time... Fwb seems to overlook the passion and romance that I need... Boyfriend still seems like a landing spot on the way to husband. :rolleyes:

Had a good talk with Andy. He and Steph both need to restart therapy, and they know it, of course it's anyone's guess if/when they'll find the time. Plus they're gun shy about it after the therapist they saw last time, stupid unethical unprofessional... Grrrr. Anyway. Andy is having a tough time with this, Steph's issues are starting to strain things... And as much as I want to support him in any way I can, I'm just not the person to talk him through that stuff.

It's hard, though. They got separate rooms this trip, which is unusual, and I knew because I see Andy's debit card charges on the same page as mine. I can say I would have preferred to not be told the reason, but if I hadn't known, I would have worried they were fighting or something. Ugh. Flimsy boundaries everywhere right now.

We left things at a good place, I think, though. He can always tell me that Steph is having a bad day/struggling with personal stuff, and just leave it at that, no details... Whether it's this issue or something else...That way I'll understand if he's in a sad mood or needs space, without hearing things that are private. Not perfect, but the best I can think of. Maybe they'll find a therapist with some better ideas!

On another note, I'm finding dating both really fun and really frustrating. Single guys want to hang out on weekends, I'm usually with Andy at the lake on weekends. It's one of those weird things... Andy and I are both fine with cutting our time there back to give each other time with established partners, but we are also both wary of doing that for new people. Like new partners have to earn weekend time, lol. But how is someone ever going to become an established person in my life, if I don't make them a priority first?
 
I can't remember exactly how I phrased it on my profile, but instead of trying to label what I wanted, since I wasn't entirely sure, I said something along the lines of "I'm mostly looking for friendship. Someone to spend time with and enjoy each other's company. That may or may not include naked times. I'm not looking for a relationship right now, but the last two times I said that, I found a relationship... so I'm not closing any doors."

Sometimes labels don't do the job of actually explaining anything, and even though it takes more words to explain what we want, it's better than trying to squeeze something into a labeled box.
 
I'd almost have fun with the linguistics in the text of a dating profile. And I'd hope that it helped me get clever men who appreciate word play.

Reclaim some fun words from the past perhaps.

"I'm looking for something that is hard to define. A friend and a sexual relationship, but not a boyfriend. More of a friend than a lover, more of a lover than a friend with benefits, and more of a partner than either of those things, but not so much that I feel I've got to put up a strong performance and meet a bunch of expectations. I want something easy and fun. Can we make up our own word, or use something like consort, or maybe paramour, and then live the definition without consulting Webster's? That would be great. Let's do that."
 
Maybe because I'm older than you, Claire, I like the word lover. For me it has connotations that make me feel special and sexy and like I'm living in a romance novel by Victoria Holt.

To be honest, my OKC profile actually uses the term lover-friend, not just lover. I usually say lover if talking in person. Sometimes I talk about wanting a FWB, too. Either way, the labels warrant a discussion on how each person defines those words in the context of what we're looking for, which is a good start for a relationship IMHO. I don't want anyone to have any misconceptions about what I have to offer.

My point was, though, that labels do matter if they're important to you and shift the way you think of a relationship and your investment in it, and it's okay. That is perfectly acceptable and I think most human beings like categorization in some way. So, don't pooh-pooh your need to frame it in a certain way in order to feel comfortable.
 
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I'm so ambivalent about dating right now. I'm having a blast meeting new people, and flirting, and kissing, and enjoying fun nights out. But I'm nervous about getting attached to anyone.

I had a fun date last night with the British cutie. I have such a thing for British accents :eek: We laughed and talked for 3 hours, it was like hanging with an old friend. Only bad part was that I had two drinks and hardly any food, so I was feeling gross by the time I left. Had to walk to a convenience store and scarf down food and wait to feel better before I drove home. Anyway, he's great. But (there's always a but :rolleyes:) he travels M-Th and then has his kid every other weekend. So basically he's free every other fri-sun. While weekends are just the hardest time for me.

Who knows... I mean, I had enough fun that I'd go out with him again, if the stars aligned and we were free the same day. It's just not likely to happen very often. So I'm trying to cultivate a "whatever happens, happens" mindset. You know, that stuff I am not good at ;) And I'm doing other stuff I'm not good at, like keeping my options open. Have another date next week with a cute scientist.

I just wish I had an emotional setting in between "we're going to live happily ever after" and "I don't give a fuck", you know? I wish I could be cautiously hopeful... Excited without being invested. But the minute I start to think, maybe this could be something really great - boom, I'm twisting myself into a pretzel trying to make it work. So for now I'm hanging out on the DGAF end of the spectrum.
 
Reverie mentioned something on her blog about feeling like a "weird human"... I know that feeling so well. Sometimes I feel like I am missing big parts of what it means to be human. Or that I must be a sociopath or have some as-yet-undiscovered personality disorder. I allude to it here a lot, feeling so ~different~ from others in the way I see the world, but I don't go into detail because I am somewhat afraid of being seen as a horrible person.

The thing is, I just don't give a shit about most people. I love my family and friends, fiercely, with everything in me. But the rest of humanity? Strangers and acquaintances, even people who could probably be described as almost-friends? Nope. No fucks given. I don't have some baseline amount of goodwill toward someone just because they are a fellow human. I don't, generally, wish happiness for all people. I don't wish unhappiness, either... I just don't care. At all.

It's not like I go through life being cruel to people. I'm mostly nice and friendly and pleasant. No reason not to be, daily life seems to go smoother that way. I generally enjoy random interactions with people. I enjoy the people I work with, both co workers and clients. It's not that I dislike a lot of people, I dislike very few people, actually. So even though I joke about being a misanthrope, that's really not it.

It's more that I'm missing some piece of moral code that other people seem to have - the piece that says we have a responsibility to help others and treat each other well. I only feel that for my friends and family, the people I have chosen. (And in a different way, to my co workers and clients, I feel responsibility there as part of the job I agreed to do.) But, like, strangers on the street? Friends of friends? I just can't *feel* like I have any responsibility there. Even the whole basic human decency idea... I can't even feel like I owe them that. I do treat people with basic respect and decency, but it's not from a sense of "should", it's just from a place of "it creates less drama to be reasonably polite than to be a bitch" . There's no, "oh, this is a fellow human" thing for me. More like, "not my problem, sorry not sorry".

The funny thing is, this didn't keep me up at night until I started thinking about polyamory. Because metamours. To me, unless I have developed some sort of friendship/caring with a meta that is independent of sharing a partner, they remain in the "I don't give a shit" mass of people. And it's not like getting to know them guarantees I'll feel that friendship and respect... There are lots of people I hang out with pretty regularly that I don't consider friends or care about. I genuinely like Steph, and at this point I care about her enough as a person to want to treat her well. Anna... Eh. Not really. Wives and girlfriends of men I'm dating? Not at all.

Yet - I'm supposed to care about their needs and feelings. I'm supposed to treat them with respect and honor their boundaries and blah blah blah, even when it's a pain in the ass. I think about this a lot when the topic of cheating comes up. I would never do that to Andy, because I love him. I have zero moral qualms about dating someone who is cheating. I don't think I'd be happy being someone's secret mistress, but there's no moral quandary about it. I don't know the guys wife, I don't care how it affects her. Same with breaking boundaries and agreements. If I was dating someone, and knew he had agreed to hold off on sex with me until his other partner was comfortable, I wouldn't feel bad at all jumping right into bed. Her feelings? Not my problem. Even if I'd met her, even if she seemed nice... Chances are I don't feel enough about her one way or the other to give a shit if she gets hurt.

That's something I think about when I muse that I am ill suited for "real" polyamory. That I just lack the basic caring toward random others. It just feels very ... Artificial... Fake... Contrived .... to me, to pretend I have goodwill toward these other partners, when I don't truly feel it. I don't have malicious intent. I just don't give a fuck, mostly.
 
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