Poly Standards, Theory, and Practice

You know, I hate to be harsh about this, but honestly, if you're feeling so threatened by the ideas and opinions of other people, then perhaps you should seek your community in places other than online forums.

I don't know why, but this forum seems to have grown a culture of defensiveness within it. When one person posts thoughts about what they consider a good and healthy way to be poly, other people start defending themselves against that because it's not the way they do poly so clearly that poster must not be respecting their poly and saying that their way is bad. All of a sudden, anybody who posts something that is in disagreement with others is somehow subverting other people and creating an "unwelcoming atmosphere". It seems that opinions becoming perceived as agendas when people start feeling some kind of subversion or threat from them.

Honestly, an online forum really ceases to work if people are continually asked to suppress their opinions or thoughts for the sake of preserving the "safety" of other people. We simply don't have enough context in the space of words on a web page to fully build spaces that are safe. I make no bones about the fact that I have opinions and I will share them freely. I will especially share opinions and thoughts that challenge inaccurate assumptions. There are a lot of people who describe things that are not my reality and that's fine. I'll only challenge it when those descriptions start making assumptions about my or other people's realities. And I'm happy to be just as challenged by others. And when I'm offended by something someone says on this board, I challenge the idea, not the person. And I appreciate having the space to do so. Inclusiveness isn't built by trying to set controls on how people communicate, it's built by allowing communication to be authentic.

But the thing is, if you don't want to deal with those kinds of challenges, that's fine. Disengage and find something that works better for you.
 
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redpepper said:
it's getting to the point where there are too many agendas out there and the way some are representing the poly community, or trying to shape it, makes me less and less able to consider myself a part of it.

please make room in that boat for me.
me too! !
 
You know, I hate to be harsh about this, but honestly, if you're feeling so threatened by the ideas and opinions of other people, then perhaps you should seek your community in places other than online forums.
OK, so what you are saying is that if this particular style of community doesn't suit you, then it's best for you to move on and find a different one, and not complain about the one you have left? I find that interesting.

I'm not threatened by the ideas of other people (and not sure if you were referring specifically to me in your post, since you didn't make it clear) - I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

Either we are trying to build an all-inclusive community here or we are not. If we are, then I think we need to have a little more mutual respect for other people's opinions, and avoid couching things in terms of judgmental absolutes, or passing judgment on other's ideas of poly. If we are not going for all-inclusive, then let's stop pretending that we are, and also stop criticizing others for trying to define it. We can't have it both ways.

Luckily, I think that there are enough diverse people around here that there can be a good, respectful exchange of differing views. Each person has a right to their opinion, and should be treated with respect for that. Isn't that a society that we would like? Mutual respect for differing views, whether monogamous, poly, gay, straight, bi, or superintelligent shades of the colour blue?

This thread is about poly standards and practice differences. My post, therefore, was more about my self-identifying as polyamorous and what that means to me, not a comment about this forum.
 
OK, so what you are saying is that if this particular style of community doesn't suit you, then it's best for you to move on and find a different one, and not complain about the one you have left? I find that interesting.

Actually no. I'm saying that if you find a community style that doesn't suite you, expecting everyone to change so that it does suit you isn't going to be very useful. If that's the case, it would be more useful to move on and find a community in which you don't feel so much of a need for others to change. However, if you choose to engage and challenge those ideas, I'd be all for that. I do that all the time.

I'm not threatened by the ideas of other people (and not sure if you were referring specifically to me in your post, since you didn't make it clear) - I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

I'd love to see an example of what you're talking about here.

Either we are trying to build an all-inclusive community here or we are not. If we are, then I think we need to have a little more mutual respect for other people's opinions, and avoid couching things in terms of judgmental absolutes, or passing judgment on other's ideas of poly. If we are not going for all-inclusive, then let's stop pretending that we are, and also stop criticizing others for trying to define it. We can't have it both ways.

Mutual respect is an interesting term to use. Many people even have different definitions of what is respectful. Respectful communication in Alabama looks very different than respectful communication in New York City. What exactly is passing judgement and how have you been judged here?

Luckily, I think that there are enough diverse people around here that there can be a good, respectful exchange of differing views. Each person has a right to their opinion, and should be treated with respect for that. Isn't that a society that we would like? Mutual respect for differing views, whether monogamous, poly, gay, straight, bi, or superintelligent shades of the colour blue?

I'm all for a respectful exchange of views. I find it interesting that if my views are very different, often times I very suddenly get called out for being disrespectful. There doesn't seem to be mutual respect in that dynamic. Mutual respect does not absolve people of taking responsibility for their own reactions and triggers.

This thread is about poly standards and practice differences. My post, therefore, was more about my self-identifying as polyamorous and what that means to me, not a comment about this forum.

If that's the case, great. But in that post, I saw a lot of energy devoted to the problems caused for you by other people, whether they're on this forum or not. I'm merely saying that it is just as disrespectful to expect other people to withhold their opinions because you don't like them as it is for other people to expect you to change to suit them. But being opinionated is not the same as expecting someone to change to suit them.
 
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I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

I'm curious about why you think that suggesting what is healthy or best for someone else automatically implies that the person doing the suggesting feels "morally superior"? Even if they do "feel" morally superior, that is not the same as advocating that the suggestee should be destroyed or forced to comply with their ideal. I guess I fail to realize why some people feel threatened by "being judged" if they are secure in their position and values to begin with.
 
I feel a bit bullied on this forum of late for sure. I feel that I need to watch every word I say and prepare to do battle. Yes, I do feel threatened. I do feel I need to suppress my opinions and thoughts. I quite often feel tag team bullied by "friends" on here as if they are PMing behind my back to figure out ways to discredit what I say and to show me and others up. Then I feel as if there are some virtual "high fives" going on when their is success in that.

I'm all for discussion. I'm all for hearing what people have to say, but if that opinion comes from a place of "all knowing" then that threatens me, then I feel bullied...

This works two ways. It seems people tend to threaten and then that person threatens in return...

I'm trying hard not to do that, so I just avoid and ignore most of the time. I don't know what others do, but to me that is my coping mechanism.....

Perhaps looking at our own words and what we say would help. I find it interesting that people slam others with the very words/theories they say are a threatening to them. Who has created the defensiveness, who is trying to control, who is creating that suppression of our thoughts and opinions? If we are all feeling like that, should we not ALL be checking our words?
 
Well to be honest, I've felt bullied plenty of times here. I've felt like people are ok with me as long as I say what they want and how they want it said. As soon as I speak a truth for me that's challenging to someone else's truth, all of a sudden coming from some "all knowing place" or I'm slamming someone or being disrespectful, not compassionate and somehow don't really "feel" things. Yet other people speak truths that slam on my truths all the time here. Instead of being bullied by that, I challenge the ideas that slam me. Some people see that as attacking the people. I don't. And when I don't step down from such challenges, somehow I'm creating conflict. I choose not to edit myself because for me that would be dishonest communication.

I choose not to step down from such challenges and remain true to my ideals of honest, authentic, open and respectful communication.
 
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I choose not to step down from such challenges and remain true to my ideals of honest, authentic, open and respectful communication.

Not everyone wants to be challenged though, and there is no need to step down from what you believe. No one is asking you to, at least I am not. Often I have the same beliefs as those that I feel threatened by...I do find however communication on here to be honest, authentic, and open.... it's the respectful part that is sometimes lacking for me.

I'm not saying I am always respectful either, just that if we are to get anywhere, I believe that everyone needs to check their respect and come from a place of loving and caring about people in the poly community rather than bringing up their agenda to change others to their way of thinking. Change comes about in me when I feel respected and safe, not when I feel challenged. I just shut down.

We all have shit we work on, to be told you have shit to work on, you better work on it, is disrespectful. If I have an opinion that the sky is gray (which it is here quite a bit) and someone says I disagree the sky is blue, then that sounds challenging to me... they don't know where I live, what goes on for me and where I am at on my path... if they were to say, "I feel for you that all you see is a gray sky, I see a blue one and this is why." That comes from a place of respect for me and where I am at.
 
creating conflict. I choose not to edit myself because for me that would be dishonest communication.

for a moment of levity, this amused me b'c you edited this post.

(please take this in the joking manner for which it was intended :p )
 
I do find however communication on here to be honest, authentic, and open.... it's the respectful part that is sometimes lacking for me.

I'm not saying I am always respectful either, just that if we are to get anywhere, I believe that everyone needs to check their respect and come from a place of loving and caring about people in the poly community rather than bringing up their agenda to change others to their way of thinking. Change comes about in me when I feel respected and safe, not when I feel challenged. I just shut down.

At what point does an opinion become and agenda to change other people's way of thinking? I would suggest that that is more in the perception than the intent pretty much every time it's experienced on any side.
 
At what point does an opinion become and agenda to change other people's way of thinking?
What's the point of discussing and debating things if not to (in some way and at some level) attempt to influence people to change their way of thinking? Isn't that why we put opinions out there ... to influence in some way those who are reading? Otherwise, why bother? I guess unless it's just ego wanting others to know what you think and feel.
 
Opinion becomes agenda to me, when I hear it presented as "I am right, and you are wrong because I have had these experiences and done these things and I believe you haven't." It comes from a place of "I know everything and you know nothing."

When I ask a question on here I invite peoples opinions and know that some will be ones I don't agree with, but when I make a statement I expect to be respected for the opinion, even if someone doesn't agree. It's not okay for me to be talked to as if I don't have any background in my beliefs and opinions. I find it disrespectful. It's as if my life and experience has meant nothing to this point and that what I have experienced means nothing. All it takes is to have the language changed when I am approached. I totally get that people have a different opinion, I am not a total wimp and unable to hear them. I hear better when spoken to in terms of "look at this idea with me, this is what I think, this is my experience, isn't it amazing that it's different, what do you make of it?" That to me is inviting and respectful, not shutting me down and making me feel threatened.

Again, I often read on here stuff that people have written in defense that is coming from the same place as each other, yet they are so caught up in making their point that they have missed the fact they are talking about the same thing.
 
What's the point of discussing and debating things if not to (in some way and at some level) attempt to influence people to change their way of thinking? Isn't that why we put opinions out there ... to influence in some way those who are reading? Otherwise, why bother? I guess unless it's just ego wanting others to know what you think and feel.

The point is to figure stuff out for myself. I can hear what people say and change my mind. I do often, but only when I am not challenged and when I feel safe to take away the information I have learned and come up with my own thoughts....

If I feel I am being MADE to sit and listen, I tune out and eventually walk away.

I totally talk about what I believe in order to make change. I have always done that on here... I have changed because of what other people have said too. It's about give and take. It's about community and coming together on a common theme for me.

I guess the whole thing is about respecting that other people are intelligent and will pick up what they want from me. Either they will pick up that they agree, or that they don't. It will strengthen what their thoughts regardless.

That is what we are all here for isn't it?

Otherwise, why bother having a forum at all.
 
I have seen it said here and in other forums that polyamorous people are not allowing there to be a safe space to discuss polyamory simply for having a differing opinion.

It resembles something like this:

Person A: "I disagree. This is my poly view. But I understand others have different views than mine."
Person B: "You're not allowing me a safe place to speak about polyamory because you don't agree with me. You're attacking me. I will only feel safe if no one disagrees with me."

So then it is advocated that differing opinions are shut down under the guise of making others feel safe. How can discussion occur in such an environment where differing opinions are not allowed to happen? A victim attitude is then acquired. "Your opinion is hurting me because it is not the same as mine."

Next an assertion is being made that if polyamory doesn't only define certain polyamorous experiences i.e. only Person B's experience, but actually encompasses all polyamorous experiences including Person A and B, the word polyamory loses all meaning.

I left another forum because of these very views. It was stated that "an unsafe space" was created if anyone expressed a poly view which deviated from the view of the moderators and owners.

I don't understand either of these mentalities. It seems driven by a need to remove all views that differ and treating these opinions as threats. That to me makes an unwelcoming environment.

I'm curious about why you think that suggesting what is healthy or best for someone else automatically implies that the person doing the suggesting feels "morally superior"? Even if they do "feel" morally superior, that is not the same as advocating that the suggestee should be destroyed or forced to comply with their ideal. I guess I fail to realize why some people feel threatened by "being judged" if they are secure in their position and values to begin with.

There is irony here. What I have viewed here is that those who are being described as acting "morally superior" have not declared any version of polyamory lesser than their own however they do advocate an expansive view of being accepting of other views on polyamory even if it differs from their own. It is then the ones who make these assertions who seek to narrow what polyamory can encompass and declare that the word becomes meaningless if others do not agree with that.

~Raven~
 
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I left another forum, The Birdcage, because of these very views. It was stated that "unwelcoming atmospheres" and "unsafe places" were created if anyone expressed a poly view which deviated from theirs, the view of the moderators and owners.

That is not what this forum is about and I find it surprising that any public forum would say that... I will take your word for it.

All I am saying is that I intend to watch my words and how I approach others who have not asked for an opinion that is different than theirs. That is no easy task as it is hard to talk about an opinion that is different to someone who believes so strongly. I ask for the same thought when I am approached with someones differing view... please, add to what I say, expand on it. That is what it is all about for me, but please don't talk to me like my opinions are stupid, please don't gang up on me because I have different thoughts on something and please respect that I am a person on my own journey. I am here to learn from all of you not to make enemies and divisions....

A bit of friendliness and humour would go a long way too I think.... I will add that to my "agenda" :D
 
That is not what this forum is about

And I am grateful that is the case. Forums where varied views can be expressed are needed and a positive thing. I am glad such a place as this forum exists.

All I am saying is that I intend to watch my words and how I approach others who have not asked for an opinion that is different than theirs. That is no easy task as it is hard to talk about an opinion that is different to someone who believes so strongly. I ask for the same thought when I am approached with someones differing view... please, add to what I say, expand on it. That is what it is all about for me, but please don't talk to me like my opinions are stupid, please don't gang up on me because I have different thoughts on something and please respect that I am a person on my own journey. I am here to learn from all of you not to make enemies and divisions....

In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.

~Raven~
 
In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.

This makes me think that you are understanding me... you say it so well. I'm glad that someone is on the same page as me. I like your add on of people being aware that they may need to process on their own before jumping to conclusions about stuff that isn't directed towards them.

This is a great way to work on communicating. I have certainly learned a lot about how to communicate better because of this forum. thanks for pointing that out.
 
A bit of friendliness and humour would go a long way too I think.... I will add that to my "agenda" :D

I'll admit that the repeated times I've been lambasted for holding to some very important fundamental views of mine has probably taken a bite out of my friendliness and humor- or at least packed it away somewhere. I will endeavor to rekindle or unpack that if I can.

In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.

Amen.
 
Happy new year. Hugs to you Ceoli. Kisses too. :)
I'll admit that the repeated times I've been lambasted for holding to some very important fundamental views of mine has probably taken a bite out of my friendliness and humor- or at least packed it away somewhere. I will endeavor to rekindle or unpack that if I can.



Amen.
 
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