Poly Map

How about as someone who has cared for one or someone who'd like to research the subject?

That would be another reason to want to learn about it.

:)

And I still think of this as a discussion on non-monogamy, not on sex work in general.

Ok...

When I said I wasn't interested in learning more about it, I meant the day-to-day practices and such.

Ah. I may not be interested in that either. Not really sure what that would entail.

Also, when I said relationship, I meant a romantic relationship. I have relationships of varying degrees with everyone I work with, for, and around but it doesn't make it romantic. I would think it is much the same for sex workers.

I think you (or someone else) agreed that a romantic relationship can develop between a client and a sex worker, but that the transaction should then be called something else.

However, I don't think you need to be a client of a sex worker to like or even love one. I think that's pretty much where I stand; you might say that in my physical life, I'm much more of an observer then a participant. Part of the reason for this is that I live in a remote area where I know next to no one. I only go to the city once or twice a month.

Online, however, I've managed to find places to talk to people. And I must admit these poly places have really given me some good times in that respect. Which is why it was pretty hard when I was removed from my last poly group.
 
I can't get the quote to do what I want (I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to technology stuff lol), but based off of nycindie saying sex workers could be thought of as non-monogamous since they have sex with different people I was wondering...

Would most sex workers identify themselves as poly/non-monogamous (assuming they were aware of the options)? I doubt it. Most I've met would love to find "the one" and get married and do that whole monogamy thing. Having sex with person after person is a JOB for them, not a LIFESTYLE. I'm not counting them as a product or forgetting that they are people, I'm counting what they do as a service and not a personal interaction.

Ok. I just met one that identified as poly, which is probably why I brought this up in this poly forum to begin with.
 
By the way, I'm not sure if you know this, but people who sell sexual services for money prefer the term sex workers.

You don't need to educate me, dear.

Ok.

You have no idea of my background.

True.. which is why I did couch my point with a "not sure" in it...

I do have some familiarity with this arena, but that is all I will say.

Alright.

Furthermore, I see prostitution as one specific "job description" within the realm of sex workers, so chill. I don't really need to be PC for anyone else.

Alright.

I wasn't demonizing, so I don't appreciate the implication.

Sorry about that. It's hard to know where people are coming from when you've only had limited time to interact with them.

Again, I think that this separation of what you are buying isn't helping anyone. You're buying services from a person in one case; in the other you're just purchasing a soul-less object.

Why should this discussion help anyone?

I like creating discussions that have the potential of helping people in some way or other. I definitely think this subject is one that should be discussed sometimes, although I know that it can be a very emotional one.

People are entitled to their opinions and to express them.

As long as they don't express them where such expression isn't wanted, laugh :). I'm referring to myself here; I'm clearly the newcomer.

I think the sex act as commodity is directly comparable to a dildo being sold. That is not to say that the people who sell sex and the people who sell dildos are not human beings. But to be able to sell the act of sex separates that act from the person and any "soul" involvement, much the same as many people who can have recreational sex without emotional attachment. I see selling a fuck the same as selling a dildo. So, shoot me.

Lol :). I'm fine with your view on the subject. I could simply never share it. Someone who sells a dildo accepts a person's money and then forgets about the whole thing. Someone who sells a sexual service.. that's something else, atleast as far as I'm concerned. I'm someone who places great value in touch. At the same time, I'm very afraid to touch, even in social settings; the thought of a hug not being wanted generally prompts me not to give them out unless I'm almost sure that it will be, or if I feel that a person deserves one from me to the point that even I'm willing to risk a rejection. I'm not sure who was mentioning sacred sexual priestesses, but I think whoever came up with it had the right idea in mind. A dildo is.. a piece of plastic. It just doesn't compare in my mind.

I'm giving my impression based on my personal experiences. Ofcourse, there are women who earn more then their partners, and some who are even the sole bread winners. I'm just saying what seems to be the norm, but if you have statistics or even anecdotal evidence showing otherwise, by all means, present them.

I don't really feel the need to present any data to prove a point here; this conversation has already become tedious for me. Suffice it to say that it sounds like your experiences have been limited.

Could be.

I'm probably much older than you and have more experiences to draw from.

Quite possible. I'm 36.

In my own personal life, most women I know, including myself, do not seek out a man who makes more money than they do, nor expect a man to support them.

Ok.

And valuing their own independence has nothing to do with how much money a woman makes. I am just barely surviving financially right now, and my bf is poorer than me. I don't care how much he makes, and I never base my attraction to someone on that. In fact, another guy I'm interested in is very unemployed right now. I don't care one iota. I've never really known many women who have that as a criteria. 'Nuff said, I'm done.

Well, you certainly don't seem to fit into the type of women that I've met, although my ex girlfriend was financially independent. Anyway, thanks for sharing. I'm sorry you found some of what I've said to be tedious. It's just that sometimes, people come from very different places and have a hard time understanding each other. Time can help here though...
 
Lots of responses since last time I posted. Let's see if I can sum up my reactions.

Nycindie: yes, I do know his chart and do like it better. I thought of linking to it myself. I think the main difference is that it focuses on relationships, which is only one aspect of Veaux's map, while including monogamy and celibacy. Basically it's broader and more restrictive at the same time, meaning it fits different needs.

Scott: the second graph doesn't include commercial because it focuses on relationships and the types thereof. While you can have a business relationship with a sex worker, it isn't the same kind of relationship. It doesn't include friends with benefits either, even though it includes friends without benefits. It's obviously focused less on the sexual aspect itself and more on the kind of relationships.

SourGirl and dingedheart, if I understand correctly you are talking about fisting. Not sure what that has to do with the chart, I'm pretty sure every category makes room for it while not making it compulsory.

General comments: I didn't see the quotes as "this is what THE WHOLE CATEGORY" is like. More "this chart is confusing, I'll add a few examples here and there to help you out". Previous versions didn't have quotes, presumably for that reason.

One thing I really don't like is that the "Religious/Social polygamy" is completely detached from the Polyfidelity block. As though it was impossible for it to be actual love with actual consent if religion or society is involved. There have been arranged marriages that resulted in happy, loving unions. I believe the same can be said of religious or social polygamy. I believe they should overlap.
 
SourGirl and dingedheart, if I understand correctly you are talking about fisting. Not sure what that has to do with the chart, I'm pretty sure every category makes room for it while not making it compulsory.

No, my response to you is back on Page #2. The verbiage between DH and I, is just his way of struggling with his 'coming out' party. ;) AKA cracking jokes at each others expense.
 
Lots of responses since last time I posted. Let's see if I can sum up my reactions.

Nycindie: yes, I do know his chart and do like it better. I thought of linking to it myself. I think the main difference is that it focuses on relationships, which is only one aspect of Veaux's map, while including monogamy and celibacy. Basically it's broader and more restrictive at the same time, meaning it fits different needs.

How would you say it's more restrictive?

Scott: the second graph doesn't include commercial because it focuses on relationships and the types thereof. While you can have a business relationship with a sex worker, it isn't the same kind of relationship. It doesn't include friends with benefits either, even though it includes friends without benefits. It's obviously focused less on the sexual aspect itself and more on the kind of relationships.

Ok. I like the idea you have above, that the charts fit different needs. I think that there should be a poly map out there that mentions sex workers, if only because you can certainly form relationships with them; perhaps generally business ones, but it can go further. I may be mistaken, but I think that a fair amount may also be with one for their first time, which was my particular case atleast.

One thing I really don't like is that the "Religious/Social polygamy" is completely detached from the Polyfidelity block. As though it was impossible for it to be actual love with actual consent if religion or society is involved. There have been arranged marriages that resulted in happy, loving unions. I believe the same can be said of religious or social polygamy. I believe they should overlap.

I agree.
 
tonberry, you are absolutely right it is cover with in other categories. Its that some people like to see things in print. "See look I'm in there" finger pointing to chart. And part of the problem is that in somebody's head it is compulsory...or just a compulsion I'm not sure which.

Scottie ...did you you get kicked out of the ofter forum for not properly footnoting ?

SG ...WOW WOw wow and ouch I can't believe you could go that low. (I'm not even going to go for the obvious joke here) YOU.... know better than most I hate Brett Farve. And the comparison is hurtful...very hurtful. First he used a cheap cell phone and ambient lighting. I use an actual camera and good lighting ...granted not studio quality much better then that hack.
Go ahead release them to the world I dare you ...I have nothing to be ashamed of..... did I mention it was cold that day ...I believe in keeping the thermostat low ...save the planet and all that crap.
 
Scottie ...did you you get kicked out of the ofter forum for not properly footnoting ?

What are you talking about, laugh :). That does remind me of one forum I was in once though; I didn't get kicked out of it. I can't prove it, but I think the moderator decided that, aside from the usual strict standards he had on formatting, I personally had to be super precise in my formatting, and suppressed posts if they weren't just so. I decided it wasn't worth the trouble. Death by formatting -.-
 
I had no idea that sex workers in poly would be such a hot topic. Out of curiosity, what would people define the rising number of people that hold,.ummm,..'sexual/tantra/magikal/whatever 'workshops' ? They provide a sexual service in exchange for money, under the guise of 'teaching' ? Does that make them a 'sex worker', and if so, and they then meet poly-interests through their sexual work,.....does that count on the chart ? There have been quite a few stories on forums over the years of people hooking up with their 'teachers' in such environments, so maybe it`s legit.

I really don`t care if the chart includes clown porn. The hypotheticals are amusing. :D


SG ...WOW WOw wow and ouch I can't believe you could go that low. (I'm not even going to go for the obvious joke here) YOU.... know better than most I hate Brett Farve. And the comparison is hurtful...very hurtful. First he used a cheap cell phone and ambient lighting. I use an actual camera and good lighting ...granted not studio quality much better then that hack.
Go ahead release them to the world I dare you ...I have nothing to be ashamed of..... did I mention it was cold that day ...I believe in keeping the thermostat low ...save the planet and all that crap.

You suck at faux bruised ego. ;) On that note, if we SELL the pics,...and a few girls like what they see,...you too, can be part of the poly sex trade.
( I require 50% of profits. My idea. )
So I`ll be pimpin' pics. They say it ain`t easy. :cool:
 
Last edited:
I can see where people are coming from in not thinking that sex work belongs in a relationship diagram. As long as it is just a buisness transaction it isn't a relationship. If a relationship develops it would then fall into another catagory. Even if the financial transactions were still taking place the relationship would be based more on other things than simply money.

Also there was some discussion about sex workers being different from buying a dildo because the transaction with buying a dildo would be quickly forgotten and the seller would move on. I would hazzard to guess that there are sex workers out there who don't hold every experience with every client in their mind either. It's the same as with any job, a lot of what you do is very mundane and the day to day just blurs together. I imagine that sex workers do remember experiences with regular clients but one offs are likely very similar to a dildo transaction for the sex worker. (If there is anyone out there who has done sex work please feel free to chime in as all this is speculation on my part).
 
Actually, I would say it has too many options. Like, lots of BDSM stuff that I feel doesn't really have much to do with polyamory (BDSM isn't part of your relationship orientation, it's something different altogether).

I guess it depends what you mean by "relationship orientation" but I disagree with your statement. Some people are wired to only be satisfied in a D/s type of romantic relationship. If that's not a "relationship orientation" then the term "relationship orientation" is poorly defined and meaningless.

Furthermore, in some D/s relationships, the poly aspect is part of the D/s and absolutely falls into the non-monogamy umbrella. There are some Dom/mes who have multiple subs, or D/s poly "families" and where the submissives allow this because it makes their Dom/me happy, not because they want it for themselves.

In other words, we're not talking about "I like to be spanked," which I agree is altogether different and unrelated to being poly ... we're talking about "My Dom/me likes to have lots of submissives, and my Dom/me's pleasure is my top priority, so I go along with it, even though it means I get less time and attention from my Dom/me" and that's 100% non-monogamy and not at all unrelated to "relationship orientation."
 
I think that, for those of us who are not into BDSM, we get tired of seeing it being "promoted" as a part of poly, when it isn't necessarily so. Obviously BDSM and polyamory are two separate things. Anyone can mix them up and partake in both however much they like, and some can see poly as a subset of BDSM while others can see BDSM as a subset of poly, but they are two distinct approaches to relationships and sex. Personally, I see polyamory as a structure/approach/practice and BDSM as a fetish/activity/proclivity, so to me, neither one requires the other except when it is a personal preference.

However, in looking at Veaux's map, I do see that he is not categorizing all of BDSM as part of poly. He has it labeled "BDSM play and D/s non-monogamy" which I guess is saying that that specific kind of BDSM that is non-monogamous overlaps with poly, so it's probably accurate.

I still think it's a stupid sucky map.
 
Last edited:
I had no idea that sex workers in poly would be such a hot topic.

I suspected when I first brought it up in the poly forum I was removed from. After that, I knew it for a fact.. but I'm rather persistent when I get interested in a subject.. although perhaps somewhat more cautious in how I express my persistence the second time around, laugh ;-).

Out of curiosity, what would people define the rising number of people that hold,.ummm,..'sexual/tantra/magikal/whatever 'workshops' ? They provide a sexual service in exchange for money, under the guise of 'teaching' ? Does that make them a 'sex worker', and if so, and they then meet poly-interests through their sexual work,.....does that count on the chart ?

Not sure if it counts on the chart, but your point is 100% valid. I know of a former sex worker who now does such workshops. It's emphasized that there is no sexual aspects involved... but... just listening to what the workshops are at times comprised of (especially the more expensive ones) sexually arouses me... so whatever, viva la workshop, laugh :). Ever heard of the term sexual surrogate? If money was no object, I certainly wouldn't mind having therapeutic sessions with a female of this profession.. once a day should be fine ;-).

There have been quite a few stories on forums over the years of people hooking up with their 'teachers' in such environments, so maybe it`s legit.

Amen. As Police' song Wrapped around your finger once put it:
"You consider me the young apprentice...
I have only come here seeking knowledge,
Things they would not teach me of in college."

I really don`t care if the chart includes clown porn. The hypotheticals are amusing. :D

Lol :)

SG ...WOW WOw wow and ouch I can't believe you could go that low. (I'm not even going to go for the obvious joke here) YOU.... know better than most I hate Brett Farve. And the comparison is hurtful...very hurtful. First he used a cheap cell phone and ambient lighting. I use an actual camera and good lighting ...granted not studio quality much better then that hack. Go ahead release them to the world I dare you ...I have nothing to be ashamed of..... did I mention it was cold that day ...I believe in keeping the thermostat low ...save the planet and all that crap.

You suck at faux bruised ego. ;) On that note, if we SELL the pics,...and a few girls like what they see,...you too, can be part of the poly sex trade.
( I require 50% of profits. My idea. ) So I`ll be pimpin' pics. They say it ain`t easy. :cool:

Lol :). As the saying says, "sex sells", which is why there are so many sexual innuendos in so many ads. I think that one of the great drivers of materialism isn't so much the material goods themselves but more as a status symbol to attract what people -really- want; a partner (or partners as the case may be). For women, this seems to be more focused on looking good themselves; for many, peripheral possessions may also take on a fairly important role, such as a snazzy car, and (if one can afford one), a good looking pad. The excesses of this are well documented in documentaries such as The Story of Stuff, and that documentary does explain how we as a society came to viewing the acquiring of material possessions as a goal in and of itself, but I feel that it does an inadequate job of what might be called the deeper motivation; we want to good look with our peers. If we could realize that we don't actually need so many material possessions but rather show our peers directly how we feel about them (my personal favourite is buying someone who I may be getting close to getting into a relationship with a meal), I think we could get what we truly want without indebting ourselves ever more to the powers that be (I think Money as Debt is a good introduction to said powers).

So, um, yeah ;-).
 
Ever heard of the term sexual surrogate? If money was no object, I certainly wouldn't mind having therapeutic sessions with a female of this profession.. once a day should be fine ;-).

Sexual surrogates only work with clients who are referred to them by other mental health professionals, who supervise the interactions. They don't accept walk-ins. The surrogate’s relationship with the client is always temporary, has a specific goal, must remain within the context of the therapeutic situation, and is under close supervision of the therapist. Often times, depending on the client's issues/problems, no sex takes place at all (a surrogacy therapy session might involve only holding hands or getting undressed, for example). Just so you know it isn't just fun and games or prostitution with another name.
 
Last edited:
I can see where people are coming from in not thinking that sex work belongs in a relationship diagram. As long as it is just a buisness transaction it isn't a relationship. If a relationship develops it would then fall into another catagory. Even if the financial transactions were still taking place the relationship would be based more on other things than simply money.

Yeah, you could put it that way. I think it belongs in some diagram though; some people (and I include myself here) had sex for the first time with someone of this profession. I certainly believe that monetizing relationships is a dicey proposition, but clearly some people, including atleast one person who identifies herself as poly that I know of, still feels that it's worth the risks involved.

Also there was some discussion about sex workers being different from buying a dildo because the transaction with buying a dildo would be quickly forgotten and the seller would move on. I would hazzard to guess that there are sex workers out there who don't hold every experience with every client in their mind either.

For sure. However, there are some finer points here that I'll get into below...

It's the same as with any job, a lot of what you do is very mundane and the day to day just blurs together.

I can't really imagine the job of a sex worker as being "the same as with any job". I guess it could be seen as mundane, but... it's just... I admit that the only comparison I can think of is drugs (something which I've never had an interest in personally). They're something that I've never had an interest in, and I'm sure they could get to be mundane to those who use them, but the whole thing is underground; a place society has decreed that people aren't supposed to be. So even if it becomes regular, I can't ever imagine it being just like "any job".

I imagine that sex workers do remember experiences with regular clients

Yes. These are the types of people I was thinking of the most in this type of thing.

but one offs are likely very similar to a dildo transaction for the sex worker.

Personally, I could never equate what a dildo does with what a sex worker does. Yes, they both "stimulate" sexual organs, but that's about as far as the comparison can go in my mind.

(If there is anyone out there who has done sex work please feel free to chime in as all this is speculation on my part).

This is really the problem; we speculate on this subject, and those who actually do engage in this type of work generally aren't the type to speak too much about it. There are some who do, atleast of the former sex worker type. Here's an excerpt of a blog post called Social Embrace from one such woman:
**********************
Nobody is `cut out` for any profession. We find our course with what tools we have in life, gain experiences and utilize them in order to survive.
Some can get social acknowledgement and respect in doing so.
Not so, prostitutes!
Attitudes and fears keep them from the safety and social embrace others experience.
prostitutes are the social outlaws of humanity.
Society turns its back because it cannot control the images we so revere in our vision of what woman `should` represent.
Shame on your back, it is turned!
Why?
How could you be so heartless and unintelligent in your condemnation of women who are professional prostitutes?
At least the clients show their token of respect and value in acknowledging the worth of the lesson.
Much as people leave their `tokens` or payment for other help, beit at church, or in any other profession that helps or advises.

Lynne Tansey,
Writer/artist/human rights advocate.
**********************

Here's her blog:
http://lynnetansey.blogspot.com/
 
Last edited:
However, in looking at Veaux's map, I do see that he is not categorizing all of BDSM as part of poly. He has it labeled "BDSM play and D/s non-monogamy" which I guess is saying that that specific kind of BDSM that is non-monogamous overlaps with poly, so it's probably accurate.

Yeah, I think that part works.

I still think it's a stupid sucky map.

Laugh :). I think it has some good qualities, and perhaps some not so good qualities. There are already 2 poly maps (I forget who linked to another but I remember there being another), I'm sure that in time there can be more. As the old saying goes "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself", to which I would add, there can be as many poly maps as there are poly people willing to make one :)
 
I can't really imagine the job of a sex worker as being "the same as with any job". I guess it could be seen as mundane, but... it's just...
It's just... that it sounds like you are putting your own emotional interpretation on the act of selling sex, based on how you feel about it. Which is by and large not true for those selling it, most of whom divorce the act from their emotions and intimate lives. Most sex workers do see it as just a job. They don't remember the johns unless there was something significant about them or they are repeat customers. One face among many. While fucking you, a hooker could be thinking about what to buy at the grocery store when she's done - the sex doesn't mean anything to them when it's a customer. You might think the little move she does or a noise she makes is all for you, but she's watching the clock and knows when to make that move with everyone. They reserve their feelings and any emotional attachment for very special people in their lives. It's like going to a tailor to sew a button on your favorite coat; they have a technique in handling the fabric of your coat, threading the needle, sewing the button, etc., but they're not going to be emotional about the fact that your button needed attention, and won't remember you unless you bring them something else to sew, no matter how appreciative you are that your favorite coat is now wearable again.

Many swingers separate fucking from love and see the act as recreational and not attached to any other emotions beside physical pleasure (and I know there is at least one or two members here who have stated as such - maybe they will chime in). It's the same thing, the same ability to compartmentalize. You don't really think that every sex worker has tender feelings for every customer, do you?

You obviously have been deeply and emotionally affected by your first sexual experience having been with a hooker, but I think you are over-personalizing your view of an industry and viewing it through the lens of that experience.
 
Last edited:
I can't really imagine the job of a sex worker as being "the same as with any job". I guess it could be seen as mundane, but... it's just...

It's just... that it sounds like you are putting your own emotional interpretation on the act of selling sex, based on how you feel about it.

Not just me. I just quoted a passage from a former sex worker, and I think she's essentially saying what I'm trying to convey.

Which is by and large not true for those selling it, most of whom divorce the act from their emotions and intimate lives. Most sex workers do see it as just a job. They don't remember the johns unless there was something significant about them or they are repeat customers. One face among many.

That I can agree with. I'm just saying that it's not like most other jobs, primarily because of the fact that it's usually not a legal profession.

Many swingers separate fucking from love and see the act as recreational and not attached to any other emotions beside physical pleasure (and I know there is at least one or two members here who have stated as such - maybe they will chime in). It's the same thing, the same ability to compartmentalize. You don't really think that every sex worker has tender feelings for every customer, do you?

No, I don't. I do believe that sex work is generally much more intimate then virtually any other job, though. The only one that I can think of that can equal and at times surpass it is that of therapists and (some) teachers... I find it very interesting that therapy and sex work are melding in some ways, in the form of sexual surrogates, and sexual workshops.

You obviously have been deeply and emotionally affected by your first sexual experience having been with a hooker, but I think you are over-personalizing your view of an industry and viewing it through the lens of that experience.

Before I had sex with this hooker, I know that I was too shy to approach women that I found to be attractive, so it certainly did affect me. But it's not just that. After all, that was a one time affair, never repeated. Pornography, on the other hand, is another matter. I think is fair to say that it employs many people in the sex trade.
 
Last edited:
Not just me. I just quoted a passage from a former sex worker, and I think she's essentially saying what I'm trying to convey.
Yeah, I know, but one sex worker can't speak for all or even a majority of sex workers. Most are very unemotional about their work. They would have to be - it is common sense if you have many customers.
That I can agree with. I'm just saying that it's not like most other jobs, primarily because of the fact that it's usually not a legal profession.
What does legality have to do with it? When you have a finite amount of time to perform a service in exchange for money, it is just like any other job.
I do believe that sex work is generally much more intimate then virtually any other job, though. The only one that I can think of that can equal and at times surpass it is that of therapists and one on one tutors... I find it very interesting that therapy and sex work are melding in some ways, in the form of sexual surrogates, and sexual workshops.
Intimate in some ways, not so in others. Have you read this thread about one member of this forum's experience with a hooker in Amsterdam? : Prostitutes and/or One Night Stands (I linked to his post about it but the thread is pretty long)

*I already responded to your post about sexual surrogates earlier, btw.
 
Back
Top