It's a Texlahoma Story

In the mono dating world, just saying, "I'm not looking for anything exclusive" or "I'm happy just dating multiple people casually for now" is effectively saying, "hey, don't take what we're doing too seriously! This is just for fun and could end at any moment!"
It is??? Really? :eek:

Hmm, I was monogamous (and really, really into the escalator) for the majority of my life and, for me, saying "I'm not looking for anything exclusive right now" NEVER meant "this can't ever be serious and could end at any moment." Wow, you caught me by surprise because in my personal logic system, I wouldn't even have thought it could be construed that way.

Whenever I've said to someone, "I'm not looking for anything exclusive right now" what I always meant was this: "I'm not ready to make an exclusive commitment right now, so let's see how things go." It meant I was hopeful that it would go somewhere "serious", was looking forward to the possibility that it would, but just not ready to let go of the option to date other people until I was sure that it was going somewhere. I would still put every effort into it that I could (and most of the time, if a guy was competitive, it would give him something to try for, you know - win me over, to get us to that point of exclusivity). It was always part of an invitation, of sorts, to "let's see where this takes us." That statement would NEVER, EVER have been meant to give the message that the person would be dropped like a hot potato at my whim because it must only be casual!

To me, there isn't a whole lot of implied subtext underneath a rather direct statement like "I am not ready to be exclusive YET," if I say what I mean and mean what I say. We cannot be responsible for how others may interpret our words. However, if I wanted to be clear that a relationship or liaison would never be "serious" (as in, committed to exclusivity or poly-fidelity), I would say, "This can never be serious." Yes, I would actually say exactly what I mean.

But... How do you communicate that in poly situations, where dating multiple people doesn't preclude serious commitments???
Even in monogamy, there is a period of getting to know someone. Nobody in their right mind jumps into declaring exclusivity with someone on their first date. It is generally understood that the desire or proclamation that people will be exclusive with each other is a REALLY BIG DEAL, and a sign that there has been a shift in the relationship, or a step taken toward that escalator. Why would polyamory be any different, in having a non-committal getting-to-know-you phase where you wouldn't expect poly-fidelity and it's okay to date other people? And that period can be as long as you like.

It's like... what some of us like to say to the unicorn hunters that are looking for a "third" to move in with them right away, so that presto-change-o, they're in a triad: "Did you move in with your spouse/partner immediately upon meeting them?" No? Why not? Usually because there was a courtship phase. I will never understand why so many people think that poly is only about having multiple love relationships, while somehow not taking the time and effort to nurture and develop multiple love relationships. It takes a while to get there. "To go far, start where you are." And not everyone does poly well or handles being a hinge well or is compatible, so... ya keep dating options open until ya know.

. . . what I want right now is to chat with dudes on okc, meet them for dates, flirt, sleep with as many or as few as I'd like, and not have to answer to anybody about it. (Except Andy, obviously, but he cares how much time *he* gets, not how I divide the time I don't spend with him. Three dates a week with the same guy or three dates in one week with three different guys, same to him.)

What I *don't* want is anybody feeling like they have a claim to X amount of my time, or a say in who else I date, or presumed ongoing sexual consent ( I don't want having had sex a couple of times to automatically mean we will have sex again). Basically, I want very casual dating, until and unless I meet someone who blows my mind and makes me want more. I don't just want to automatically escalate to the "more" just because it's been a few months of dating.

And I'm not sure how to communicate that in a world where dating multiple people still leaves room for expectations of "more than casual".
Well, the only way I can think of that you would communicate what you wrote above is... to tell them what you wrote above. Are you thinking that it's not nice to be that direct? You're very clear about what you want, so why not say what you want? I mean, the basics of what you've said here is pretty much what I say in my profile on OKC. "I am looking for X, not looking for Y, will not put up with Z." Boom, done. You can actually tell people what you want! If they hear you, grasp it, and then choose either to be all in, or walk away, that's on them.

I don't want to hurt people. And I know I did, when Andy and I first opened up, and I dated with the expectation that nobody could expect anything of me because married. Dag was a true Game Changer in his way, it was the first time I saw that non monogamy could mean multiple "real" relationships. So I'm gun shy now, about getting hurt myself, but also about hurting others.
The only way people get hurt, including yourself, is by 1.) not speaking your truth because you think it's more polite/attractive/acceptable to say something "nicer" or less direct, and 2.) by hiding behind the fear that wanting what you want means you're bad or slutty, thereby living a life that expresses less than who you are.
 
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It is??? Really? :eek:

Hmm, I was monogamous (and really, really into the escalator) for the majority of my life and, for me, saying "I'm not looking for anything exclusive right now" NEVER meant "this can't ever be serious and could end at any moment." Wow, you caught me by surprise because in my personal logic system, I wouldn't even have thought it could be construed that way.

Whenever I've said to someone, "I'm not looking for anything exclusive right now" what I always meant was this: "I'm not ready to make an exclusive commitment right now, so let's see how things go." It meant I was hopeful that it would go somewhere "serious", was looking forward to the possibility that it would, but just not ready to let go of the option to date other people until I was sure that it was going somewhere. I would still put every effort into it that I could (and most of the time, if a guy was competitive, it would give him something to try for, you know - win me over, to get us to that point of exclusivity). It was always part of an invitation, of sorts, to "let's see where this takes us." That statement would NEVER, EVER have been meant to give the message that the person would be dropped like a hot potato at my whim because it must only be casual!

To me, there isn't a whole lot of implied subtext underneath a rather direct statement like "I am not ready to be exclusive YET," if I say what I mean and mean what I say. We cannot be responsible for how others may interpret our words. However, if I wanted to be clear that a relationship or liaison would never be "serious" (as in, committed to exclusivity or poly-fidelity), I would say, "This can never be serious." Yes, I would actually say exactly what I mean.

Even in monogamy, there is a period of getting to know someone. Nobody in their right mind jumps into declaring exclusivity with someone on their first date. It is generally understood that the desire or proclamation that people will be exclusive with each other is a REALLY BIG DEAL, and a sign that there has been a shift in the relationship, or a step taken toward that escalator. Why would polyamory be any different, in having a non-committal getting-to-know-you phase where you wouldn't expect poly-fidelity and it's okay to date other people? And that period can be as long as you like.

See, for me, I have always, always, always done dating by focusing on one person at once. Even if there was no official discussion of exclusivity until months later. I have a great couple of dates, I lose all interest in dating other guys. It's not a forced thing, it's the most natural thing in the world. If I think someone might be a good guy for me, I want to give all my time and energy to the potential new relationship. If it doesn't pan out, oh well, back to the search. But during the figuring out if it will go somewhere period, I've never continued to date others.

Soooo... When I say "not ready for anything exclusive yet", I'm really saying, "never going to want to be exclusive with you, but I'll hang around with you until I meet somebody I do want to commit to!"

The times in my life (both in my mono single girl days, and since opening my marriage) that I have dated multiple guys at once, it's because I wasn't really into any of them. More just something to do than actual interest in a relationship. And I did it knowing full well that if I did meet someone who knocked my socks off, I'd bail on all those other guys in a heartbeat. I assumed that hey, they know I'm dating other guys, we haven't made any commitments, so I don't owe them anything besides a "sorry not interested in going out again!"

Well, the only way I can think of that you would communicate what you wrote above is... to tell them what you wrote above. Are you thinking that it's not nice to be that direct? You're very clear about what you want, so why not say what you want? I mean, the basics of what you've said here is pretty much what I say in my profile on OKC. "I am looking for X, not looking for Y, will not put up with Z." Boom, done. You can actually tell people what you want! If they hear you, grasp it, and then choose either to be all in, or walk away, that's on them.

The only way people get hurt, including yourself, is by 1.) not speaking your truth because you think it's more polite/attractive/acceptable to say something "nicer" or less direct, and 2.) by hiding behind the fear that wanting what you want means you're bad or slutty, thereby living a life that expresses less than who you are.

It's funny, I started to write "oh, I don't know what I want!"... But I do. I just feel like I shouldn't want it, or it's a bad thing to want.

I want to go out with a bunch of different guys and have zero obligations to any of them. Maybe one date that goes nowhere, maybe one date a week for months, whatever feels right. But if I eventually meet somebody truly awesome, I want to stop dating any and all others, and just be with the one truly awesome guy.

And yeah, I feel shitty about that, because this is poly and I'm not supposed to dump one guy for another, I'm supposed to somehow fit them all in.

TL,DR: Renaissance is amazing and if he was single, I'd be over the moon with NRE. But he's not, so I kind of just want to date him until I meet someone who is equally cool and has his own place. I'm fully aware this makes me a selfish bitch, so guilt.
 
Woke up at 3 am, can't get back to sleep...

Why am I SO FREAKED OUT by the idea of dating someone with a primary partner???

I spent an hour last night chatting with Renaissance over text, and - he's just the coolest guy. Did I even mention that Andy broke two toes yesterday? Yup, it's awful looking, but everyone says it looks worse than it is. Anyway, Renaissance was sweet and supportive and helpful. All the things I would want from a friend/lover/boyfriend. And yet, I'm holding back, actively working to not like him too much.

Is this just me not being ready to date yet?
 
Why am I SO FREAKED OUT by the idea of dating someone with a primary partner??? ...
Is this just me not being ready to date yet?

Look at other options, but it may well be the case. It's been how long, since you broke up... two weeks? You can't be healed yet.
 
It's entirely likely that you aren't ready to date yet. That doesn't mean you *definitely* aren't, just that as Tinwen said, it hasn't been long at all since you broke up with Dag, and it takes time to heal.

As for dating someone with a primary partner, wasn't that part of the issue with Dag? He had a primary partner who didn't want to know you or anything about you? Even though that doesn't seem to be the case with Renaissance's partner, you might still be stinging from the DADT situation with Dag. If you date someone who doesn't have a primary, you don't have to worry about whether it's really on the up and up, you don't have to worry about whether or not she likes you, and you don't have to worry about where you can get together with the guy because presumably no primary partner means a living situation where he's able to host.

(That isn't necessarily the case, because not living with a primary partner doesn't automatically equate to living alone; a lot of guys have roommates, or kids who live with them at least part time, or they live with family members, like one guy I knew who lived with his brother because they shared their family home after their parents passed.)

Also... a couple posts ago, you said "this is supposed to be poly and I'm not supposed to dump one guy to fit another in."

Um... there is NO "supposed to." "Should" and "supposed to" are bullshit. This is *your* life and *your* relationships, and you're "supposed to" do whatever you need to do in order to be happy and comfortable. Labels don't change that.
 
My brain is a little clearer after ten cups of coffee :rolleyes:

1) on being not ready to date...

I definitely don't feel ready to date anyone seriously. I don't feel ready to commit to anything beyond the next time I'll meet someone for drinks! But... What the fuck do people do about sex during this phase??!!

Because I am desperate. It's been FOREVER. And masturbating and/or sexy play with Andy almost make it worse, because they really aren't the experience I'm craving :( I miss having someone want me, lust after me, I miss turning someone on. The idea of having to get myself back to perfectly stable and well adjusted before I have that again... just really sucks.

2) Renaissance

This guy is amazing, but he's also triggering my "feeling obligated" issues big time. He gave me leather handcuffs that he made on our first date, and now he's working on another gift for me. It's a bit overwhelming. I don't have any sense he means it as anything other than a fun present for a new friend, but... I'm me, so I'm starting to feel the "now I owe him" feelings.

3) Having a metamour

You know what bothers me the most? Wondering what guys and their wives/partners say about me when I'm not there. I just get creeped out feeling like some woman I don't know has all this access to my personal thoughts. That she judges my outfits in every picture, reads my conversations with her guy, hears what I like in bed, rolls her eyes and calls me a bitch if I cancel a date with her partner.

Because I do some of those things! I don't hear about Andy's sex life with others, but that's because I don't want to, I frequently have to tell him "stop before you say something I don't want to hear!" And I totally roll my eyes at his friend girls when they're flaky. I do it with love when it's Steph, exasperation when it's Anna, but yeah, I have my judgy moments with them both.

Even things that aren't necessarily "private" exactly... It still weirds me out to have a metamour know about them. Like the cuffs Renaissance made me. I know his fiancé was in their workshop, doing her own projects, while he was making them. I'm sure he was honest about making them for a date. Did she ask about my reaction to them?

I just get stressed about someone I don't know learning all about me - and I guess I also don't have much trust that other couples are even as careful as Andy and I are about keeping relationships private. I found Dag's DADT oddly comforting from that perspective, I knew he wasn't sharing a damn thing about us with his wife.
 
I really wish I could shake the feelings of guilt for having what are simply completely normal human feelings.

I still feel guilt about ending things with Dag, even though I was miserable and I think he was frustrated and unhappy, too. Logically, ending a relationship when it becomes nothing but stress and suffering is a good thing to do. But, guilt.

And I feel guilt about having preferences when it comes to dating. For acknowledging that there are some men I might date casually for a little while, and others with whom I'd be up for something more long term and committed.

But - I mean, that's normal, isn't it? To look at some people and think, I enjoy spending time with this person and I'm having fun dating them, but it's not a relationship that inspires me to stop seeing others or make promises of forever. And to still acknowledge that I will probably, at some point, meet someone who DOES make me want to trade in casual dating for focusing on him.

It's just being human... I think... To feel different degrees and types of feelings for different people. I have never felt the same intensity of love with anyone else that I feel with Andy. I don't feel bad about that...

So why do I beat myself up for not wanting to offer the exact same kind of relationship to every potential new guy I date? :confused: :cool:
 
So why do I beat myself up for not wanting to offer the exact same kind of relationship to every potential new guy I date? :confused: :cool:
Somewhere along the line, you got the message that that is what you're supposed to do. And so, you do it. You were programmed to beat yourself up! I think this pattern is wrapped up in feeling bad for having your own desires/behaviors that may not match what you (or whoever it was that installed the program) think or believe your desires/behaviors "should be." This could come up in relation to many other things/areas/issues in your life besides polyamory.

There is a term in computer programming: WORM, which stands for Write Once Read Many, and it means that you create some kind of WORM program only once but the system will read it and execute it many times. That is sort of how our minds work when we have either been taught, or formulated on our own, a particular rule or belief about how we are "supposed to" feel or behave, or whatever.

Usually those programs run in the background, and we don't realize that we're operating in the present based on programming from our past. And so we are unconsciously going along with what we were told or taught (either by example or observed experiences) to do. However, when we become aware of that WORM program and see it... ahh, well then... then we have a choice about whether or not we continue letting that program execute the thoughts or behaviors it dictates.

So. You have these thoughts, "I suck, I shouldn't want these things!" So, at that moment, be like an anthropologist and observe them, not judge them: "Oh, there's that thought/belief popping up again, that I should/shouldn't [fill in the blank]. Huh. Interesting. Now, what triggered it?" And maybe you can discover what makes the WORM kick in so you can gain more awareness into it.

And then you can say, "Nope, I will set it aside for now because I really want to have fun on this date!" and pay no credence to the negative, self-limiting thought process. Or allow it to run and be miserable living in your head, beating yourself up, and not enjoying the moment with your date. Your choice.
 
Somewhere along the line, you got the message that that is what you're supposed to do. And so, you do it. You were programmed to beat yourself up! I think this pattern is wrapped up in feeling bad for having your own desires/behaviors that may not match what you (or whoever it was that installed the program) think or believe your desires/behaviors "should be." This could come up in relation to many other things/areas/issues in your life besides polyamory.

There is a term in computer programming: WORM, which stands for Write Once Read Many, and it means that you create some kind of WORM program only once but the system will read it and execute it many times. That is sort of how our minds work when we have either been taught, or formulated on our own, a particular rule or belief about how we are "supposed to" feel or behave, or whatever.

Oh, reading that, I have soooo many WORMs!

I absolutely have a "program" to just say and do whatever I think people want me to do, without even stopping to think about my own opinions and feelings. A belief that I shouldn't have any needs beyond pleasing the people around me, and that if I do, I'm selfish and bad. I'm so terrified of letting people down or upsetting them that I put my needs dead last. (Growing up with crazy people who become violent when they don't get their way will do a number on you:rolleyes:)

It's one reason this blog helps me; it's a place I can think and talk about my own needs. The irony is that I do the automatic people pleasing thing here, too, sometimes.

Like when I mentioned being meh about dating partnered men, and got several comments about how not every situation would be like with Dag. I immediately jumped to the blog post version of nodding and smiling - "yes, partnered guys could still work, I could be really happy dating a partnered guy, yay!!!"

When the truth is, I'd rather NOT date those guys right now. I'm not searching for anything super serious, I'm not desperate to find a boyfriend (just sex, lol). I'd much prefer to stick with casually dating and not devote much energy to any one person unless I meet someone who ticks all my boxes - and right now one of those is no serious partners.

Maybe I'll feel differently in a few months, but right now I just want to take care of me, and part of that is not deliberately putting myself in stressful situations.

So that's my de-WORMing of my blog behavior for the night ;)
 
Something I have been thinking about today... What exactly do I mean by "serious" or "committed" relationships?

When I first joined this forum, I was baffled by the idea of commitment without the traditional relationship escalator. I thought of commitment as only applying to "til death do us part" situations... Or at least, "til a long hellish legal battle do us part" ;) Now, I find myself using those words in relation to non-entangled relationships, ones that don't include living together or promising to stay together forever.

Really, I think that to me "committed" is more about my attitude toward the relationship than anything else. And also, how I perceive the other person's attitude. It's not necessarily about having made any specific agreements, or acts, although those can definitely influence how I feel about things.

If I had to boil it down to its essence... Commitment is that point in a relationship where you stop seeing problems as reasons to cut your losses and bail, and start viewing them as things that need to be worked on together.

As an example... Person X announces that they've quit their job today and have no way to support themselves. If this happened on the first date, or even the fifth, I'd just be like, it's been lovely to meet you, have a wonderful life, bye! If it happened after we'd been together for three years, I'd be doing everything I could to help the person figure out what happens next. If it was in between... 3 months... 6 months... well that's tougher to know. Sometimes at that point in a relationship I feel pretty devoted to the other person. Sometimes it still feels very casual.

And that's VERY subjective. It varies from one relationship to another. But it's a point I've crossed in every relationship I would consider serious. At some hard to define point, maintaining the relationship becomes worth effort and work. I stop feeling like I'm still deciding whether or not to be in a relationship with the person, and start feeling like yes, I have decided, I definitely want to be with this person, and I'm willing to compromise and work to keep the relationship going.

(This is kind of what I was getting at with the "mono person dating multiple people" example. That person is still deciding. And if everyone involved is hoping to eventually end up in a monogamous partnership, then everyone is aware the person is still in the process of making up his/her mind. Eventually they'll pick one (or none) of the people they're dating, and the others will be out of the picture. Whereas in poly, there's actually the possibility that they will continue to date ALL of the people and never just pick one.)

Anyway, this internal shift - this sense of being committed - is what I DO NOT WANT to happen with a partnered guy. Not right now, not in the foreseeable future. I am just DONE with giving any thought to metamours, whether from an avoiding them perspective or a pleasing them perspective. I need a nice long break that bullshit.
 
(Rambling thoughts cont.)

So why am I so dead set on digging in my heels and not getting "serious" with partnered guys?

Well, a big part of it is realizing that if your boyfriend has a serious partner, you have a relationship with her, too, even if you never even meet! I thought Dag's DADT rules would keep his marriage from interfering with our relationship - ha! Quite the opposite. Whether it's scheduling stuff, rules, seeing each other at group events... If you're in a relationship the same person, your lives are linked.

I'm just soured on that right now :cool:

The other half of it is that I still have such a fantasy of someday getting what feels like normal dating with a boyfriend. Just going out to do something and then going home together. Whenever we want. As opposed to hotels or scheduling around when our spouses are out of the house. I really don't want to give up on that possibility.

And yet, I know myself, I know that once I prioritize a relationship, I'll give up an awful lot to make it work. I don't have a ton of time, and if I'm serious about someone, they're going to get every bit I can give. Which doesn't leave room for dating around and meeting new people - or, even if I meet someone by chance, establishing new relationships. So I'm just incredibly hesitant about going all in with someone who can't give me that fantasy.

(I wonder if I will feel differently when the lake house is finished, and Andy and I will have a place to entertain without kicking each other out. Maybe. Although in the past, the issue hasn't been cramped shower or barely usable kitchen, it's been the drive.)

Maybe it's dumb, maybe it's the breakup pain talking. I'm oddly ok with that. Some people eat ice cream, I'm too obsessed with my scale to do that :rolleyes: so instead I surf okc and dream of dating single guys.

Which is ok. As long as I am up front and honest with anyone I meet, I'm allowed to date whomever and however I'd like. (I'm thinking of writing this across my bathroom mirror so I am reminded every morning.)

I am going to bring this up with Renaissance when we go out tomorrow. Not the "I wanna kiss all the single boys" part, but the not being in a place to get serious about anything with him at this point part. We're slipping into what feel like relationshippy habits... Texting good morning and goodnight every day, knowing each other's schedules, letting the other know if we will be unreachable for a few hours. All that stuff comes so naturally to me, and it seems to be the same for him, but if it's like this after one date? I need to put on the brakes if I want to have time to date others.
 
We're slipping into what feel like relationshippy habits... Texting good morning and goodnight every day, knowing each other's schedules, letting the other know if we will be unreachable for a few hours. All that stuff comes so naturally to me, and it seems to be the same for him, but if it's like this after one date? I need to put on the brakes if I want to have time to date others.
TBH -- and I am not even a daily texting sort of gal -- but that actually doesn't sound very time-consuming to need to slow it down to make room to date others. To have a social life, you spend time texting friends, and still have time texting and seeing other friends... it doesn't seem like what you and Renaissance are doing would really get in the way of having another date here and there with someone else. Methinks you're making more of it than it is.

My hope for you is that, when next you do see or talk to Renaissance, you let him know in a clear, direct manner just how spooked you are about having a metamour, and how the DADT arrangement tossed you around and left you feeling beat-up from the whole experience. For your sake, Claire, I hope you don't let that fear you have of not being perfect get in the way of letting him know what's going on with you and how your relationship with Dag affected you. There is no need to pretend.
 
Texting good morning and goodnight every day, knowing each other's schedules, letting the other know if we will be unreachable for a few hours. All that stuff comes so naturally to me, and it seems to be the same for him, but if it's like this after one date? I need to put on the brakes if I want to have time to date others.
TBH -- and I am not even a daily texting sort of gal -- but that actually doesn't sound very time-consuming to need to slow it down to make room to date others.
I suggest it's maybe not time consuming, but it's still valid to keep it down to make room for other guys... I mean... it's far more easier to schedule a date if you are not supposed to tell your other prospect about what you're going to do in the evening.
 
Yeah, it's not that it's time consuming - I text my friends all day too. It's that once I get into "relationship mode" I no longer WANT to bother dating new people.

Current post- breakup mindset notwithstanding, I don't really like dating multiple people at once, so once I find somebody I like, I'm done with meeting new guys. This is even more pronounced if I know the sex is good... Because if I'm having fun with someone, and we are having great sex, regularly, then what is the point of bothering with anyone else?

In my mind right now, though, the point of still dating others would be to maybe, possibly, someday find a guy who's a better match for me long term. I just... Don't know how to do that. Feel attached and still look for others.

It's not a time thing, in terms of absolute amount of time available... It's a time thing in that I will inevitably do what I did with Dag, and hold my calendar as open as possible for the one guy I care about, at the expense of meeting anyone else. Because that's how I am.

Even though we've always had tons of close friends, even romantic friends, the sexual part of opening up with Andy felt very weird at first. I didn't act on it for years, not until I was basically climbing the walls with sexual frustration.

Everyone always cautions against using poly to "fix" a relationship, but that's what we did. Problem: Andy feels rejected because I'm not sexually attracted to him as a girl, I feel rejected because he sees PIV sex as a favor to me. Solution: fuck other people. It was followed shortly by Problem: casual sex is unfulfilling Solution: befriend and love said other people!

So despite being not-terrible at poly, it doesn't come naturally for me. I fall into sexual monogamy easily and happily, and only get inspired to break out of it when my needs aren't being met. And as we all saw with Dag, the needs have to be unmet in a big way, for a long time.

What I'm afraid of is that I'll date Renaissance - or some other awesome partnered guy - and coast along into dating only him, because that's what comes easily for me. And I'll do that despite it not being everything I want in a relationship, because it still feels preferable to dating multiple people.

I'm just trying to not repeat the same pattern I keep seeing in myself - settling on one guy too soon, bonding with him to the point where connecting with anyone else becomes difficult for me. Does that make any sense?
 
I wonder, though, if some of your problem wasn't fixed?

You read to me like somebody who wants to be monogamous. You want one partner who you spend lots of time with and share an entwined life with. Even if the partner you are with has other sexual partners, a hard limit for you has always seemed to be that their other partners must not become entwined in your life.

In order to deal with a sexual incompatibility, you and Andy have chosen to be non-monogamous. It allows both of you to find partners who you are more sexually compatible with while still staying married and having the entwined life that you both want.

This sounds brilliant. You guys handle it really well. No controlling of each other, no major problems with jealousy over time or sex. Your marriage is strong and you are deeply in love with each other. This should all be working well.

Only it isn't for you. You don't like casual sex and you don't want another partner who will become entwined in your life like Andy is. Nor do you want another partner who isn't able to behave like a partner. You seem really sad lots of the time and to tie yourself up in knots about this. It doesn't sound like it is working all that well for you right now - or maybe you just haven't found the configuration that will.

The solution may well have fixed the problem of you and Andy not being sexually compatible - but from reading your blog, it sounds like it has brought you at least a whole ton of new problems.

I always hope when I read here that you will have found something that truly works for you and will be feeling so much better about things. You seem like a lovely, caring person and I think you deserve so much to be happy and content with your life.

IP
 
Canceled date with Renaissance tonight. I had basically reached a point of having panicky feelings about going, and... I don't want to feel that way. I took a walk at lunch, searched my mind and heart for ANY sense of wanting to see him again. All I found were things like "it's rude to cancel this late" and "I owe him at least one more date because he made me that present" and the ever present "I'm a bad person for not being excited about him". So I texted him and said I just wasn't in a good place to date right now, apologies for not realizing it sooner, wish you well in everything.

I usually think I'm pretty good at what Reverie calls "humaning", but there is one area where I'm atrociously bad - figuring out what my obligations are to other people. I move through the world feeling like I am required by some unspoken code to please everyone around me, even at the expense of my own happiness, sometimes even my own sanity. Drawing even the smallest boundaries, saying no, letting people down or God forbid upsetting them - these things feel off limits to me. It feels revolutionary and downright dangerous to act on my own wants and needs before I have met those of others.

(I actually started to write a post this morning asking, "If you were my hypothetical date tonight, would you prefer I cancel, or go on the date out of politeness and then turn down future invites?" Like, I really figured I'd do whichever thing most people thought Renaissance would prefer. It took EXTREME strength of will to not post that and instead decide for myself.)

So, predictably, I feel shitty about canceling, shitty about not wanting to date him. But - I just didn't want to, you know? I want to want to date him, but that is not the same thing as actually wanting to date him. And I'm pretty good at sucking it up and pasting a smile on my face, but I was starting to worry I wouldn't even be able to do that tonight.

I'm really curious how other people manage this, the balance of feeling like you owe other people stuff but you also need to take care of yourself sometimes. ETA : not for this particular situation, this one is over, I was seriously bothered by his reaction to my text. But for future use.
 
Canceled date with Renaissance tonight. I had basically reached a point of having panicky feelings about going, and... I don't want to feel that way. I took a walk at lunch, searched my mind and heart for ANY sense of wanting to see him again. All I found were things like "it's rude to cancel this late" and "I owe him at least one more date because he made me that present" and the ever present "I'm a bad person for not being excited about him". So I texted him and said I just wasn't in a good place to date right now, apologies for not realizing it sooner, wish you well in everything.

I usually think I'm pretty good at what Reverie calls "humaning", but there is one area where I'm atrociously bad - figuring out what my obligations are to other people. I move through the world feeling like I am required by some unspoken code to please everyone around me, even at the expense of my own happiness, sometimes even my own sanity. Drawing even the smallest boundaries, saying no, letting people down or God forbid upsetting them - these things feel off limits to me. It feels revolutionary and downright dangerous to act on my own wants and needs before I have met those of others.

(I actually started to write a post this morning asking, "If you were my hypothetical date tonight, would you prefer I cancel, or go on the date out of politeness and then turn down future invites?" Like, I really figured I'd do whichever thing most people thought Renaissance would prefer. It took EXTREME strength of will to not post that and instead decide for myself.)

So, predictably, I feel shitty about canceling, shitty about not wanting to date him. But - I just didn't want to, you know? I want to want to date him, but that is not the same thing as actually wanting to date him. And I'm pretty good at sucking it up and pasting a smile on my face, but I was starting to worry I wouldn't even be able to do that tonight.

I'm really curious how other people manage this, the balance of feeling like you owe other people stuff but you also need to take care of yourself sometimes. ETA : not for this particular situation, this one is over, I was seriously bothered by his reaction to my text. But for future use.

Now you've made me curious about what his reaction was...

Aside from that though, I totally get it. Writing about life in a blog has helped me see a lot of my less than healthy behaviors. Ways in which I am not honoring myself.

I do the thing of putting my own needs last (if they are even on the table at all)...but it's worse than that. I second guess my own feelings, I go over and over, round and round, about whether I'm allowed to feel something, whether I am justified in feeling it, if it makes me a bad person for feeling what I feel, whether the other person "deserves" for me to feel this or that, and if I am living up to it, or if I'm just a failure and a disappointment for not feeling what I "should" feel...

And all I could figure is that it was my marriage-programming, where my feelings existed only insofar as they interacted with his ego. It was my failure as a wife that I did not "make him feel wanted and needed."

I didn't want and need him.

I didn't feel what a good wife would feel. For a man who went to war, who broke his mind and body for me. I failed to present him with the award medal of my proper emotions and the expression thereof. I failed. And the consequences for my failure? A shattered family. Financial ruin.

And I talk to people who say they have no problem having "just sex" affairs, because they are in control of their emotions. And they seem baffled, and they look down on me like I'm an idiot child when I tell them that while I can control my actions...I cannot control how I FEEL. I'm really hurt by this. They believe they have control over what they feel. But then they seem to think that once they feel an emotion, it justifies any behavior they choose to do. I think maybe we're opposite in this way, me and men? They are justified to punch someone who angers them, because that person made them feel a Feel. I am weak for not being able to control my feelings, and how dare I express them?

Is that fair? That does not feel fair to me. But you see, there is guilt there.

I wonder if you don't carry some guilt for the fact that as much as you love Andy and he is worthy and deserving (as a good person) of the desire he would wish to receive from you, you simply could not get sexually interested in his sexual (feminine) self.

Or maybe it goes further back than that. Maybe for both of us. Maybe it's just that cultural programming that we're taught from birth, that our feelings pretty much exist for the purpose of pleasing others, especially men, and especially romantically. I mean we are sold that bill of goods, from our side we make ourselves pretty and wait until the Worthy Male shows up, sweeps us off our little footsies and we "fall in love."

From the boys' side, once they win the day, become the hero of their own story, as an honor badge of being a Proper Man, they "get the girl." She gives him her love as proof that he is Worthy.

Her emotional attachment is nothing but an accessory to his ego, picture the Prince as Cock of the Walk and the Princess glued to his side gazing up at him like a well trained dog. And neither damn one of them are paying any attention to the Princess's needs or feelings even if she was the focal character of the whole stupid story, you know??

We gotta dig, Claire. We have to root out the very beginnings of these ideas that our feelings aren't important and have to be justified, propped up by the agreement of others, or a pile of "reasons" before we dare voice them.

I just want to be able to say, "I feel how I feel. I'm sorry if it causes you to feel anything negative in response to my honest declaration of it. But it's the truth." I don't want to have to explain why I love one man and he deserves it because of having done this, that, and the other thing. I hate feeling guilty because two men and the woman I stepped away from relationships with are glorious wonderful people who deserve all of the love and happiness in the world. I don't want to have to declare winners or losers in this game.

But I cannot just pin my love or interest on the lapel of the most deserving.
 
Now you've made me curious about what his reaction was...

It was just condescending, and a smidge too close to gaslighting. "Hey, what's this dating nonsense? No need to get all bent out of shape, we were just two like-minded people having conversations! It's not like I was going pressure you to have sex tonight!"

Um, ok. Points for not date raping?

I am the queen of fuzzy boundaries with friends, but even I don't consider 30 minutes of making out, feeling me up, and grinding your junk against me in a parking lot to pass for friendly getting to know each other behavior. That is ... Something, to me, whether it's dating or fwb, it's not platonic.

But hey, maybe to him, that's truly no big deal, just a normal way to end an evening with a new acquaintance. If so, good to know, we don't see sex the same way.

I guess the more annoying part was ... ok, fine, maybe to him it wasn't a "date", but I'm still free to decline doing it again. Let's just delete the word "dating", and pretend my original message said "not in a good emotional place to have conversations with like-minded people followed by sweaty make-outs". Still valid!

Oh well. I honestly don't care much. I'm just ever so slightly disappointed that his "but we can keep sexting if you want!" follow up does not bode well for trying to be just buddies.

I do the thing of putting my own needs last (if they are even on the table at all)...but it's worse than that. I second guess my own feelings, I go over and over, round and round, about whether I'm allowed to feel something, whether I am justified in feeling it, if it makes me a bad person for feeling what I feel, whether the other person "deserves" for me to feel this or that, and if I am living up to it, or if I'm just a failure and a disappointment for not feeling what I "should" feel...

...

We gotta dig, Claire. We have to root out the very beginnings of these ideas that our feelings aren't important and have to be justified, propped up by the agreement of others, or a pile of "reasons" before we dare voice them.

I just want to be able to say, "I feel how I feel. I'm sorry if it causes you to feel anything negative in response to my honest declaration of it. But it's the truth." I don't want to have to explain why I love one man and he deserves it because of having done this, that, and the other thing. I hate feeling guilty because two men and the woman I stepped away from relationships with are glorious wonderful people who deserve all of the love and happiness in the world. I don't want to have to declare winners or losers in this game.

But I cannot just pin my love or interest on the lapel of the most deserving.

Yes. That just got you a loud AMEN from a hardcore atheist ;)

Logically, rationally, I know that whatever I feel and want is ok. But it's so hard to ~feel~ that. I would never judge anyone else for wanting what they want, or acting on their wants, or sticking up for their right to do so. I just have such a hard time doing it myself.
 
I struggled for a really, really long time with saying no and looking out for my own needs first.

From supporting a meth-head while my own bills went unpaid and my credit tanked in my teens, to going along with group sex under pressure when I was not yet into it and NOT OK while it was happening in my early twenties, to walking on eggshells when Moss and I were married lest I awaken his criticism and wrath—I have spent most of my adult life so far going along to get along and caving to what I think other people wanted.

I am a lot better about it now, but I still mess up. I continued having sex with Rider last week after it started to hurt, just because I didn't want to disappoint him. Instead, he felt bad when I told him after, and made sure that I realized that I could always stop and finish in other ways—my pleasure was important too.

I, too, can blame my history of people-pleasing and subjugating my own needs on the craziness of the people who raised me.

Actually, it was getting to know Rider that made me get slowly better at saying "no" (as ironic as it is that the trigger for more independence came from outside of myself).

It was wanting to get to know Rider better that made me stand up to The Ex and his controlling behavior. It was how nice Rider treated me that made me realize exactly how little I'd been settling for.

And it was being in a poly situation that didn't fit, with Rider and his ex, that caused me to seek advice here on the board—really great advice from a number of wise people. On these boards, I've learned invaluable lessons:

1. It's OK to feel what you feel and not to be able to control it. It's important to TALK ABOUT IT no matter how the other person responds. Sometimes their response tells you all you need to know about them (and how supportive or jerky they are)!

2. It's OK to want and need what you want and need, and to ask for it. The other person can say no, but at least you asked!

3. It's OK to be strong enough to walk away and look elsewhere if you cannot get what you want or need in the situation you're in.

4. It's OK to have boundaries about what you will and will not tolerate, and to defend those boundaries.

5. It's OK to say no to things you're uncomfortable with. It may be a permanent no, or it may be a "not ready yet" no that may eventually turn to a yes, but you don't OWE anyone consent to anything: not dating, not staying in a situation that is hurting you, not sex, not face-time when you need solo time, etc. If people aren't OK with that, maybe you're incompatible.

6. Walking away from major incompatibilities is a temporary pain, as opposed to the prolonged pain of staying in the incompatible situation.

7. Some people are just not worth spending your time on, and YOU are the one who gets to decide who those people are. They can dislike it all they want, but YOU get to decide who is in your life.

8. Not everyone is going to like you, and that's FINE. As long as you're doing what you truly believe is the ethical thing to do and staying true to yourself, that is the best you can do. If people don't like you, they're free to apply #7.

Learning all this stuff has improved my life IMMENSELY! I feel like I am learning self-care and slowly clambering up Maslow's hierarchy by applying these principles. Before, I could often only be creative out of a place of deep sorrow or pain. Now, I am getting to a point where I can do it almost anytime! :cool:

You have to take care of yourself first, and then the good stuff follows!
 
Somehow I always manage to miss posts and have to go back and read the crap I missed!

(Rambling thoughts cont.)

So why am I so dead set on digging in my heels and not getting "serious" with partnered guys?

Well, a big part of it is realizing that if your boyfriend has a serious partner, you have a relationship with her, too, even if you never even meet! I thought Dag's DADT rules would keep his marriage from interfering with our relationship - ha! Quite the opposite. Whether it's scheduling stuff, rules, seeing each other at group events... If you're in a relationship the same person, your lives are linked.

I'm just soured on that right now :cool:

The other half of it is that I still have such a fantasy of someday getting what feels like normal dating with a boyfriend. Just going out to do something and then going home together. Whenever we want. As opposed to hotels or scheduling around when our spouses are out of the house. I really don't want to give up on that possibility.

And yet, I know myself, I know that once I prioritize a relationship, I'll give up an awful lot to make it work. I don't have a ton of time, and if I'm serious about someone, they're going to get every bit I can give. Which doesn't leave room for dating around and meeting new people - or, even if I meet someone by chance, establishing new relationships. So I'm just incredibly hesitant about going all in with someone who can't give me that fantasy.

(I wonder if I will feel differently when the lake house is finished, and Andy and I will have a place to entertain without kicking each other out. Maybe. Although in the past, the issue hasn't been cramped shower or barely usable kitchen, it's been the drive.)

Maybe it's dumb, maybe it's the breakup pain talking. I'm oddly ok with that. Some people eat ice cream, I'm too obsessed with my scale to do that :rolleyes: so instead I surf okc and dream of dating single guys.

Which is ok. As long as I am up front and honest with anyone I meet, I'm allowed to date whomever and however I'd like. (I'm thinking of writing this across my bathroom mirror so I am reminded every morning.)

I am going to bring this up with Renaissance when we go out tomorrow. Not the "I wanna kiss all the single boys" part, but the not being in a place to get serious about anything with him at this point part. We're slipping into what feel like relationshippy habits... Texting good morning and goodnight every day, knowing each other's schedules, letting the other know if we will be unreachable for a few hours. All that stuff comes so naturally to me, and it seems to be the same for him, but if it's like this after one date? I need to put on the brakes if I want to have time to date others.

I realize that the DADT experience was a bad one for you and put you off to dating people with serious partners.... but I guess I'm wondering why you are against having to involve a meta in your life. You yourself said many times that you wish Dag was more comfortable with hanging out with your friends as well as Andy and being in your home while Andy was there. But at the same time you're worried about having a place to entertain without kicking each other out or having a partner who has to kick out his partner. I'm not saying that you have to be BFF with a meta, but if you were to date someone with a serious partner who was open to kitchen table poly and you actually got along well enough with her to enjoy interacting, wouldn't that actually make all the things that you want *easier*? Then if there were scheduling issues you could actually just talk directly to your meta, and I find that when metas like each other they're possibly more likely to want to work with each other and their shared partner to maximize everyone's happiness. I'm sure that's not the case everywhere, but at least in my own experience my meta and I enjoy hanging out, we're comfortable being in the same space, and when anyone wants to change up the schedule or needs time with our shared partner, we try to accommodate the other if we can (like changing up days if we don't already have plans, etc.). All of the open communication and not needing to constantly seek out separate space actually makes dating someone who has a serious partner manageable to me.

Anyway, no matter what, if you need a break you need a break. You're still recovering from a break-up that was painful. I certainly don't think that wanting to back off of dating for a while is a bad idea. Merely suggesting that it might be worth waiting until you're more recovered from ending a DADT relationship to just assume that it means dating any type of partnered person would be a bad experience. Of course, if you happen to meet a hot single guy who doesn't care that you're poly... I wouldn't turn that down either ;)
 
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