At the Cross-Roads

nori

New member
Hello everyone! I am just popping straight over here from the Introductions forum because my mind is racing and I just have to get this out. I introduced myself a bit already, but here's a summation:

I'm incredibly new to the entire world of polyamory. I guess I should say that I've known about it for a while, but I've just recently let myself in.
. . .
I married really, really young. Purity culture really did a number on me. Fortunately for me, the man I married turned out to be a really great person. Maybe I knew that, but I'm thinking it was probably just luck. We've been married for five years, and I'm still really young, but I'm finally brave enough to admit things about myself that I never could before.

I had been hinting with my husband for a few months that I am not really satisfied with our traditional marriage, and a couple of weeks ago I finally found the courage to ask about moving away from the traditional-ness of our marriage. He's been incredibly flexible and open, so here we are!

Before I dive any deeper into my scenario and questions, I'd like to preface with a plea for patience and understanding as I navigate into this world. My situation is different, in fact so different that I haven't encounter a single case like in during the month of me obsessively searching the internet, so with that being said, please be gentle. :)

Like I said in my introduction, I married very young. I grew up very influenced by Purity Culture and no matter how far I moved away (3,301 miles), I couldn't escape the messages that inevitably come along with Purity Culture. I was young and vulnerable and really, really stupid.

But I also ended up incredibly lucky. My husband amazes me every day with his growth and flexibility and his gentleness. I fell in love with a man who turned out to be a genuinely good person. But he wasn't the only person I had fallen in love with.

At the very same time I met my now husband, S, and started falling in love, I met his brother, P, and despite myself, started falling in love with him too.

However, P's personality was much scarier to me at the time. He is the older brother and he is much more dynamic and outgoing and very, very flirty. He is also really popular with girls. I didn't think I had a snowballs chance. He flirted with me, but I just thought he did that with everyone. He made me feel nervous and inadequate but simultaneously comfortable and interesting. It was weird. It's still weird. Looking back, I can see how he made it very obvious that he was interested in me, but I couldn't accept the fact that this popular, older (by five years) guy really liked me.

Simultaneously, I had built a really sweet friendship with S, and I was really attracted to him, too. I imagined the future with him. It felt more accessible. He is the younger brother, and only slightly older than me (by 3 years), and he was much easier to be around. He was gentler and I never felt any nervousness with him at all.

I guess because I ended up spending more time with S, I forced myself to stop thinking about P in that way at all. It was genuine, I still got butterflies when I saw him, but I repressed the feeling. Growing up within the purity culture means a lot of things, but the main message I received was that as a woman, I would be validated through a traditional marriage. Anything outside of that would condemn me to a life of "otherness" and I just couldn't handle that. And obviously, traditional means just one.

I was really caught up in the whole "soul mate" thing, too. I really, sincerely managed to make myself believe that S would meet all of my needs and we'd live happily ever after in a fairy tale universe.

So, after just a year of dating, I married S. I was 19 at the time. In the months leading up to our wedding, though, P started really pushing hard. He had never really stopped flirting with me entirely, but in those months he was really laying it on thick. It was hard for me to understand because I had repressed my feelings and I still didn't believe he could or should like me.

After marrying S, my relationship with P has been a roller coaster. He has hated me, loved me, treated me like a friend, like an enemy, like a sister... depending on the day. It's been really hard. And I really, really didn't understand how any of this was even possible.

My marriage with S hasn't been perfect, obviously. We were too young and I had serious, serious baggage. But he has been incredible as I work my way out of depression and disorders and co-dependency. He's been there through late night panic attacks and month-long hibernation phases.

I'm at a place now, after months of intense therapy, where I can recognize my reality. I don't carry the same baggage I once carried. I can recognize my own worth as something unique to my identity as an individual that is not contingent on any relationship or prestige. And finally, I'm ready to accept that I am not a traditional woman!

I reject all gender roles, so that in itself is nontraditional, and our marriage has adjusted to that, not without bumps. I also just have so much love to give! And I believe it's okay to love whoever, whenever, and wherever as long as it's genuinely selfless and honest. And I promise, that is what my love for these two men really is.

I'm quickly approaching my five year anniversary, and my husband and I have officially talked about opening our marriage. He plans to continue choosing monogamy, but he understands that it just doesn't work for me. I asked him if he would like to know who I was interested in or if I should first speak to that person, and my husband agreed that it wasn't just my story to tell so I should work it out and then let my husband know what was going on, because I promised to never hide anything.

I'm generally a very open and honest person. Secrets kill me. And I'm glad that my husband has sort of given me permission to not have to tell him everything until I'm ready.

I know that P is still very interested in me. We have stabilized our relationship over the last two and half years. He tries to hide his feelings, and while they are still a little hard for me to believe (because up until a few weeks ago, they were just a part of my intricate fantasy world...), I know they are there.

However, P doesn't know that my husband and I have agreed to non-monogamy. And I don't really know how to tell him or if I should let him figure it out or what.

I really want to pursue a relationship with P, but obviously there are TONS of cultural barriers and I cannot commit to an exclusive relationship with P.

There are a million things to think about, and I have probably thought of 999,990 of them. I over think things. It's kind of like a hobby at this point.

I also have a million questions, but I will start with just a few:

1. How have you let people you are interested in know about your non-monogamous status?
2. Do you live in secrecy? What is that like? What tips could you give to someone looking to have a "private" open relationship, meaning that only the people directly involved would know?
3. Do you know of any situations that are similar to mine?

I really appreciate you, whoever you are, for taking the time to read all of this. Thank you in advance for any guidance.

Love,
nori
 
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Hi nori,
We met briefly on the intro board, but now I know more of your story. :)

In chronological order, this is what I'd suggest you do:

  • Tell S about your feelings for his brother P.
  • If it's okay with S, then tell P about your feelings for P.
  • In the same conversation, tell P about your poly agreements with S.
  • If P agrees with an (MFM V) poly scenario, try dating P for awhile and see how that goes.
Definitely don't wait for P to figure it out on his own!

Re:
"How have you let people you are interested in know about your nonmonogamous status?"

When I became interested in Snowbunny (the one and only poly partner I've ever had), I was still technically monogamous and had never heard of polyamory. So all I told her was that I was interested in her. She actually then found out about polyamory by doing web research.

Re:
"Do you live in secrecy?"

In terms of not telling the world we're poly (Brother-Husband, Snowbunny, and me), yes we "live in secrecy." Or a better way to put it might be, we "hide in plain sight."

Re:
"What is that like?"

Well it means Snowbunny can't hold both of her men's hands while we're in a park or whatever. It means I have to act like "just a friend" when we're around our monogamous family and friends. No PDA's with Snowbunny -- unless no monogamous friends/family are around, and even then not unless Brother-Husband isn't present.

It certainly takes some getting used to, but I would say I am used to it.

Re:
"What tips could you give to someone looking to have a 'private' open relationship, meaning that only the people directly involved would know?"

There's really nothing to it, you simply don't tell anyone. Other than other poly people, and even then like if it's Polyamory.com, never disclose your real names; this is a public forum and can come up in a google search.

You and S could do PDA's, but you and P would have to be very careful about where and when you did PDA's.

If you have any monogamous family and friends who you could depend on to

  • accept you as being polyamorous,
  • not tell anyone else about your polyamory,
then you could tell them. But don't do that unless you're 100% sure. It only takes one loose tongue to out you to the world -- and once you're outed, you can't un-out yourselves.

If you end up having kids, you'll have a difficult riddle to solve. You can't easily hide the poly from your kids, and yet if your kids know about it, you have to decide whether to enlist them in your secret-keeping. That is, assuming they'd agree to keep your secret -- and could keep it!

Re:
"Do you know of any situations that are similar to mine?"

How similar?

I'm in an MFM poly-fi V, but the two guys in the relationship are not literal brothers. I know of one person who was with two twin brothers and considered both of them to be husbands to her. But she didn't tell me much about her situation and I lost contact with her a long time ago.

The movie "December Bride" (1990) depicts an MFM V in which the two men are literal brothers. But that V doesn't live in secrecy.

Understand that polyamory isn't a smooth road -- at least not in the beginning. It gets easier a little at a time. But you could run into a real roadblock when you tell S about your feelings for P. You could run into a roadblock when you tell P about your feelings for P. A lot of difficult emotional stuff is likely to happen along the way. It is hard, but I feel that it is worth it.

I'll be happy to help out in any way I can.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I agree with Kevin in that, regardless of what your husband has said, you should tell him that this person of interest to you is your brother-in-law BEFORE opening up some kind of dialogue with P about how you are now in an open-relationship and free to date him. Because honestly, my partner wanting to date anyone in my family would be an absolute deal breaker to me (and vice versa). Speaking only for myself, it is a level of ick and complication that I'm just not prepared to work through. It's easily something I can see being so far off of a person's radar because of cultural taboos that it literally wouldn't even cross their mind to think it were possible, and that makes it a dangerous situation to be in. If your husband is of that mindset, then he doesn't know what he has consented to in encouraging you to figure things out with the other first.

I strongly urge you to have that conversation with S to find out if you and he are on the same page about whether P is someone you can date, because it *is* an unusual case. It may well be that he's fine with it, but you and S both need to realise that this will change the nature of the relationship he has with his brother in fundamental ways. It's this reason, more than getting his 'approval', that is important: you are talking about changing the nature of one of the core relationships in his life by your actions, and I think since this does affect him directly, you need his consent to effect this change upon him.

Metamour relationships can be great, and perhaps the idea of forging new friendships with the people you date is appealing to him, but you shouldn't take that for granted. Ask him what level of interaction he envisages having with someone you are dating, and see if that matches with what you are hoping for. I think you have a lot more work to do with S, and figuring out both of your boundaries, before going anywhere near to starting something with P. And if it turns out that S is *not* ok with P as a partner for you, but *is* ok with someone else? Then that's still great. There are many others out there that don't come with the emotional 'messiness' of P. Take your time in finding someone else, and celebrate the fact that you have an awesome and open-minded husband that is supporting you here. :)
 
I absolutely agree that you need to tell your husband about your interest in P FIRST. There's no use in stirring up possible drama between the brothers if your husband won't go for it.
 
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful advice. :)

Kevin,
Thank you for the simplified tips and for sharing a bit of your story with me. I also really appreciate the movie suggestion. I LOVE MOVIES! <3

Re:

How similar?

I guess I'm wondering if you know of any cases with literal family involved. It clearly evokes certain biases, even within the most open and accepting communities. So it adds an extra layer of difficulty. However, I think that even in situations where there isn't any literal family connection, the dynamic that people form is just as valuable to me for observing how different people handle different situations, you know?

So thanks again for sharing a bit of your story. :)


tenK,

I appreciate your honesty in reaction. I imagine that it is representational of most people, so it's important for me to see it. This is really the first time I've spoken about this situation, and I wasn't absolutely sure what to expect. I also really, really, really appreciate that you showed me something I hadn't yet thought of. The very last thing I want is to disrupt anything for the worse. I had thought that it would only be disruptive if outside people found out about it, but you're right. It will fundamentally change their relationship and that is something that I have to consider carefully. I don't ever want to act selfishly.



Bluebird,

You're right. There is no point in stirring up anything if there's no path available anyway.



I'm definitely going to be thinking about how to best bring up the topic with my husband. It's really, really scary. Honestly, the two reasons I wanted to avoid it was because 1) I didn't want to overwhelm my husband with too much information too fast and I thought if he knew it was mutual it would be easier for him to accept and 2) It's not just my story to tell and I don't want to sort of "out" P.

I suppose I could just talk about my feelings and not necessarily bring up P's. I feel like that might be harder, though. But, beginnings are always hard, right?

So I feel pretty confident I know what the next step on my journey needs to be. Thank you! I'll keep you updated.
 
Realize too, that P may just be a big flirt, and might enjoy sending you signals because you are unavailable. I have known guys like this. And, ultimately, as much as you want him and he might want you, he may not want polyamory. He may be monogamous, and want a life-long mono partner.
 
Hi nori, can you possibly use a larger font? I'm wearing my work glasses and still have trouble reading your OP. :cool:

Thanks a bunch!
 
Sorry about that Karen! If I could edit it, I would. Sometimes I forget that my computer screen is pretty big. :)

Re:
Realize too, that P may just be a big flirt, and might enjoy sending you signals because you are unavailable. I have known guys like this. And, ultimately, as much as you want him and he might want you, he may not want polyamory. He may be monogamous, and want a life-long mono partner.

Bluebird,
Yes, thank you. This possibility has not escaped me at all. But I agree it's important for me not to get swept up in what I want because I'm definitely not the only person involved here.

P is definitely a big flirt, and it's a possibility that it might just be a game to him, and I used to be absolutely convinced of that. But, the more I get to know him and the closer I get to him the less likely that seems.

But he's not monogamous in the traditional sense at all. He's very Marxist in his perception of marriages and partners. (We all are...) However, being a Marxist doesn't imply an explicit desire for polyamory, but it does at least open the door for relationships outside of traditional monogamy.


-----

Also, I just opened up with my husband about my feelings for P. I felt really bad that I hadn't really considered how he was consenting to something he might not really understand because it is so far out there and I really value informed consent. So- thank you so much for pushing me to do open up to him because it was definitely the right thing to do and I feel so much better! Yay for ethics!

It was also just really successful, too. :) My husband is amazing and completely supportive and selfless. So I feel fantastic. We will do much more talking over the next few months, but at least now my husband can really give informed consent.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
 
Glad to hear he responded positively. It sounds like you guys are on the right path! I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think there's anything morally wrong or even something that unusual about being into or having sexual relationships with two members of the same family - it's just when *I* try to imagine putting myself in that position, I just have to acknowledge that I'm not really up for dealing with the extra level of complication, and neither is my partner. This indirectly came up for us recently as we are a same-sex couple hoping to have kids in the next few years. A friend suggested we consider asking her brother to be a sperm donor, so the baby would look like us both. I think we considered it for half a second before bursting out laughing imagining how that would pan out with our respective families - I think they are going to have enough trouble wrapping their heads around us as (poly, bi) parents without wondering about father/uncle/mother/aunt on top of that!

Shame really. That would be one extremely cute kid.
 
Re:
I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think there's anything morally wrong or even something that unusual about being into or having sexual relationships with two members of the same family - it's just when *I* try to imagine putting myself in that position, I just have to acknowledge that I'm not really up for dealing with the extra level of complication, and neither is my partner.

Oh great! :) I wasn't really offended either way, but I didn't think you meant that it was universally wrong. I think that if I hadn't bonded with them simultaneously I wouldn't be necessarily drawn to this dynamic, at all. It's one of those things that just happened, and I really, really, really tried to make it go away, but every few months the feelings would just resurface and I'm getting really exhausted pushing them down. I'm happy to be in a place in my life where I don't feel guilt or shame about FEELINGS and I'm stable enough to think about the ethics of my ACTIONS. I don't think I'm really 100% ready for the situation, but I don't think I ever will be either. Maybe I'm wrong, but this feels like one of those things where you just sort of have to jump in to really figure it out? I feel like this is as good of time as any to "jump" (slowly and cautiously, that is.) :)


So, I didn't realize that I would go through step one so quickly. But once you brought the issue of consent up, I just had to.

S and I live really, really far away from P and the rest of their family. But we're going to take a trip to see everyone for the holidays. I feel like that would be a great time to start feeling out the situation with P and preparing myself to talk about all of this.

However, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm scared that it can't be as simple as just getting it out, you know? I feel like that won't feel very natural. I mean, I've been bottling these feelings for seven years. I assume he has, too. I feel like anything abrupt would be more destructive than constructive.

That being said, I'm not prepared to lie or manipulate at all. That's not my style.

Also, much to my dismay, P and S were both raised in a pretty "traditional" household... gender roles were a big deal to their dad. S has definitely grown out of it. My feminism has really rubbed off on him. :) I'm worried about P, though. I don't hold it against him because I recognize that people are a product of their environment and there is always SOME growth potential. I mean, I don't ever tolerate any explicit sexism, but I'm willing to sort of let him guide the pace here. Does that make sense? I feel like my thoughts are all over the place. (Sorry!)

I've thought of a couple of possible scenarios for leading the conversation in the direction of feelings... which neither S or P love talking about...:

1. Tie it into one of our philosophical chats. Marxism and non monogamy go really well together. I could sort of throw it out there that I really like Marx's position and gauge the reaction. Our philosophical chats are how we do most of our bonding, so it feels natural but also a little dishonest.

2. Just really openly flirt back, when it's just the two or three of us, that is. If he says anything to S, S would direct P back to me about it. Simultaneously, though, make it really clear that I'm not miserable in my marriage. This one feels the weirdest to me. I don't know why... maybe flirting freaks me out because of my run-in with purity culture? It's probably pretty honest, though.

3. Just straight up tell him that I like him. This one feels honest, but not natural. If that makes sense? Also, I'm terrified. This one has the greatest risk because I can't gauge his emotions at all. And if it turns out that I've been wrong for almost a decade and he really has NO interest in me at all, I just ruined my relationship with my brother-in-law. And part of me feels like that even if I can't be honest about my feelings for him, at least he'd be a part of my life.

QUESTIONS
1. Which scenario seems more ethical?
2. Which scenario seems more productive?
3. Are there any other scenarios that would work better?
4. Is it insane that I'm trying to plan this? (Probably.)
 
Since all three scenarios seem to have their plusses and minuses, how about doing a little of all three? or to put it another way, play it by ear and switch back and forth between the different scenarios depending on what the dynamics of the moment seem to call for? If you get to talking philosophy and Marxism comes up, you can pursue that line of thought. If he flirts, you can reciprocate (just a little at first, then see how it goes). And who knows, either flirting or philosophizing might lead you to an opening where you could say, "You know, I really do like you." And so on.

I don't think there's that much danger of ruining your relationship with P. It's possible it might lead to some awkwardness, but even that would fade over time.

You could sit down, the three of you, telling P there's something you want to talk about. Then maybe have S inform P that you have been considering polyamory, and ask P how he feels about that. P might ask what polyamory is and you could then explain it. Then you could tell him that you like him a lot, and would be interested in having a polyamorous relationship with him if he'd be interested in having a polyamorous relationship with you. Tell him he doesn't have to answer right away, he can think about it and talk to you again later.

You can't plan everything precisely. P is a unique individual with his own needs and inclinations. Therefore at some point your best plan is to just see how things go, and go with the flow if you will.

People are imperfect and organic, so there's no sure-fire way of introducing a topic as complex as polyamory. Trust your instincts, use your best judgment, and don't be hard on yourself if things go sideways.

Those are my thoughts for now.
 
Well, you are certainly not the first woman here who has posted about wanting or having an involvement with her husband's brother. I agree that it would be a good idea to let your BIL know with your husband around or nearby s he can pop in and let his brother know it's okay with him.

And would you please set your font size to at least 4 if you're going to change the default to Times New Roman? It's a real pain in the ass to read it so small. Thanks.
 
Everyone has been giving you good advice so far, and your husband really seems like a fantastic person :) Like nycindie said, there have been several women on these boards interested in having a relationship with their brother-in-law, so you are not alone in that sense. Nothing new under the sun...

This question is the one that I've been thinking about:

Do you live in secrecy? What is that like? What tips could you give to someone looking to have a "private" open relationship, meaning that only the people directly involved would know?

Kevin said so well that his MFM Vee is "hiding in plain sight". So is mine. We live together, but no one thinks anything about it, because we in a way have several good reasons to live together, and yep, me and CJ are married. I'd think it would be just so easy for you to hide in the plain sight, too. I mean, your guys are brothers - no one will think anything of you three spending time together. And no one needs to know unless you want them to know.

PDAs haven't been a big deal to us, because I am not a PDA person anyway, so in public I'll behave the same with both my guys, really.
 
Thanks, everyone, for the tips. :) I agree it would be a conversation best had with S nearby.

I'll be on the look out for more people who have forged this path. Thanks!
 
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