Polyamory perspective on internet porn?

Cheesy Lady, you've brought up some interesting things that would be fun to talk about.

The first idea is about where we place our sexual relationship with ourselves on the hierarchy. I want you to maybe stop thinking of porn/masturbation with porn as your husband's "secondary," or at least consider my take on it.

I feel very strongly that everyone is entitled to a primary sexual relationship with themselves, a safe space where they can explore their sexual desires. This exploration may include reading sex books, masturbating, watching porn, confronting body image issues, or even just pondering sexual ideas that may occur to us. This "relationship with ourselves" is a special (and private!) place for only us, where we learn to be comfortable with our own sexualities and explore our own desires, not connected to our partners or our relationships or anything. This is about loving ourselves first.

A person with a healthy sexual relationship with themselves is better able to give to other people, I think. As hard as it is for me to grasp as a wife, I know I am my husband's secondary, in a way. His primary sexual relationship must always be himself, or else what can we give each other? And my primary sexual relationship is with myself, and always will be, my whole life, even when other partners come and go.

Cheesy Lady, you have a sexual relationship with yourself too, and have a right to it, just like your husband does. How you explore yourself or your sexuality is up to you. Whether your relationship with yourself and your body is healthy and positive is up to you, too.

So you can't think of porn as your husband's counterbalance to your potential boyfriend. His personal sexual explorations are, instead, a natural part of his sexuality, and in a healthy relationship, they balance out your personal sexual relationship with yourself. Does this mean you guys have to masturbate without each other to porn all the time? No! You get to decide how your relationship with yourself works.

Now, if your husband's relationship with himself gets co-dependent (lol) and he starts neglecting his other partners (you), then you two have something to talk about. But from what I hear from you guys, your husband has been viewing porn for years without you knowing (because you thought you'd forbidden him from seeing it, and he didn't think that, and kept watching it). So his porn use doesn't seem to have gotten in the way so far. Why fix something that isn't broken, therefore? Why go in and meddle with a good thing he's got going with himself, if it's not impacting on your relationship?
 
This whole revenge/getting even thing is way off the mark. I honestly didn't understand Mrs. Cheesehead's perspective.
Well, okay, I said I could be wrong. Perhaps you are not subconsciously tryng to get her back for wanting poly by using porn against her wishes. However, I still find your statement "this seems pretty unfair to me... I'm supposed to approve of her being with another guy, but she's going to veto me jerking off to internet porno???" as pretty indicative of your hurt or exasperation about this new stage in your marriage, of how you want a level playing field, and saw a correlation yourself.

To be labeled passive aggressive based on this (fraction of a) story is very insulting.
I didn't label you anything. I said that you might have an inclination toward retreating when hurt and then reacting in a way that has an element of "get even" to it. If you choose to feel insulted by this, and are not willing to explore whether or not there's any truth to it, then the issue is dead. What I wrote was offered in the spirit of being helpful. We all do passive-aggressive things from time to time, and we all have patterns of behavior that we carry around with us from an early age that do us no good anymore. I've done things I'm not proud of. I've also taken a ton of relationship and self-growth workshops, weekends, etc., where I've had to listen to others' feedback about myself without being allowed to defend any of it. Generally, it's understood that an immediate response of "I'm insulted" or "I'm offended" is often just a way to say, "No" when someone doesn't want to examine something they find unappealing to look at. Mrs. C. seems to think I've picked up something that you two need to address. Why not look at it like a scientist, without judging the behavior, and see if there's anything to it. We can only grow in our own personal journeys of enlightenment when we stop judging ourselves, our actions, our feelings, which in turn helps us not to judge our loved ones.
 
MorningTwilight - next time through you should grab some fresh cheese curds from a cheese factory. By fresh I mean not battered or deep fried, and still warm - they'll squeak as you eat them, squeaky cheese! :)

I've had this in Quebec, on pommes frites, with thick brown gravy, onions, and bacon. "Poutine," yum!

CheesyLady said:
Michelle - No, not all for me. Yes, I expect to benefit from the energy it would bring, same as I would hope I would bring home to him if I had an outside relationship. [...more remarks in which CheesyLady discusses porn as if it were her husband's secondary...]

I think it may be beneficial to think of it, in addition to the way MichelleZed discussed in her response down thread, as a form of release. Everybody needs that, and what they do to get it may differ from person to person.

Put another way, not everything Mr. C does needs to be (or should be) for your benefit. It's OK if some things he does are for him.

CheesyLady said:
To put this whole thread in context, Mr. C some time ago (pre-poly) had asked my opinion on the whole thing and I thought I was clear I didn't want him using it when I made him some. When I found out about it again, then we got to discuss it in a new context.

In addition to looking to porn for fresh ideas and fantasizing about things one might not want to do with one's partner, there's also this thing called the Coolidge Effect, and it's this nasty bit of evolutionary behavior in a man that causes him to subconsciously become sexually bored with the same mate after awhile. The sight of a new potential mate brings the little soldier back to life. It's a "spread the seed" kind of thing. The point of bringing that up is that after being with you in person, Mr. C might want to look at someone else for a little bit, even if your lingerie pictures are ready to spontaneously combust in their own right!

The Coolidge Effect tends to loosen its grip after a few days to two weeks, fortunately. It's not your fault and there's not a helluva lot you can do about it; it's the way men's brains evolved, and it helps to explain, in large part, why Mr. C might want to look at porn once in awhile, even though he still finds you quite desirable.

CheesyLady said:
And no also to the idea of me having a problem with it because the gals are better looking than me or something. Mr. C shared some of the details of what it is that he is looking at, and it sounds more like home-made stuff than from a studio cranking the stuff out. Besides that, I don't see how I could be self-conscious with my body and be ok with starting a new relationship with someone outside of my marriage. Maybe that does happen, but is not the case for me. I appreciate other beautiful women (looking at clothed people around) and enjoy my own wonderfully feminine body.

All good to know! I hate it when women have body image issues. Newsflash: men do not (generally) think that runway models are attractive. Too skinny, no muscle, blech.
 
a thread about porn and cheese

I've had this in Quebec, on pommes frites, with thick brown gravy, onions, and bacon. "Poutine," yum!

Mmmmm.... poutine. *drool*


In addition to looking to porn for fresh ideas and fantasizing about things one might not want to do with one's partner, there's also this thing called the Coolidge Effect, and it's this nasty bit of evolutionary behavior in a man that causes him to subconsciously become sexually bored with the same mate after awhile.

Nasty, to look at another woman? This is a poly board, sir. I know you're kidding, but nasty is a bit harsh of a term.

While the Coolidge effect is usually seen demonstrated by males—that is, males displaying renewed excitement with a novel female—Lester and Gorzalka developed a model to determine whether or not the Coolidge effect also occurs in females. Their experiment, which used hamsters instead of rats, found that it does occur in lesser degrees in females.

The research in the book Sex at Dawn suggests human females and other primates are meant to mate with several men during each sex session. I bet the female rats in the original experiment woudlve welcomed a few more males into their midst, because:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

A male rat would be placed into an enclosed large box with four or five female rats in estrus. He would immediately begin mating with all of the female rats repeatedly until eventually exhausted. Although the females would continue nudging and licking him to continue, he would not respond...

Bring in the reinforcements!

The sight of a new potential mate brings the little soldier back to life. It's a "spread the seed" kind of thing.

All genders enjoy looking at/having sex with other attractive people besides their mates.

The Coolidge Effect tends to loosen its grip after a few days to two weeks, fortunately. It's not your fault and there's not a helluva lot you can do about it; it's the way men's brains evolved...

What do you mean, a few days to 2 weeks?
 
What do you mean, a few days to 2 weeks?

It seems to take about that long for the dopamine rush from orgasm to fully wear off, and your brain returns to normal. Perhaps I'm conflating that with the Coolidge Effect.

I really need to read something else besides relationship and sex stuff for awhile. Hrm, Neil Peart's Roadshow is sitting on my shelf, unloved ...

MT
 
It seems to take about that long for the dopamine rush from orgasm to fully wear off, and your brain returns to normal. Perhaps I'm conflating that with the Coolidge Effect.

Well, I dont know what you mean by normal. I can have sex several times a day most days (with multiple orgasms each time) (not that I am lucky enough to get that)~ I guess that's my brain's normal state. Of course, some men can have repeated intercourse and multiple orgasms in one day as well. Heck, even my 55 yr old ex h was capable of 3, even 5 Os in 24 hours sometimes... and still want more the next day. So I guess we are never "normal!"

Have fun with your non-sexy book. :p
 
It seems to take about that long for the dopamine rush from orgasm to fully wear off, and your brain returns to normal.

Yeah, that can't be right. If your brain is only "normal" two weeks after an orgasm, nobody's brain would be normal, ever. Because who goes two weeks between orgasms? How do the scientists measure those levels?

Skeptical.
 
I've gotta say, I really balk at the idea that masturbating to porn is somehow not "consensual" sex. It's solo sex, so the only person who needs to consent is the one engaging in it. To say "you can't jack off without my consent" sounds more like a D/s thing to me than anything. And I just don't see how jacking off to pictures on a screen is any different from jacking off to pictures in your head.

If it's affecting your relationship, as with the potential ED or addiction problems mentioned above, that's one thing. But otherwise, I absolutely can't see what grounds a partner would have to try to set parameters on what you can and can't do with your self solo outside of a kinky power exchange context.
 
Annabel, the word "consensual" triggered me, too, but I didn't mention it. I feel like possibly the Cheesies have misused the term a bit. Usually, we reserve the term "non-consensual sex" for sexual assault. There are two people involved in non-consensual sex, and it involves a violation of someone else's body, and it's a serious term to throw around.
 
Anyone who tries to dictate to me how i masturbate or what i think about when i do it will get laughed at and made fun of and if they dont leave right away, they will get a show-and-tell.

I find this thread incredibly funny: "the poly perspective on internet porn". It sounds like we're at some academic summit meeting trying to figure out international policy or something. We'll write a paper and get it published and then it will be official.
 
What's nasty about the Coolidge effect, is that it's like crack -- the user needs more and more and more, in a futile attempt to reach a high. I'm not religious anymore, but it reminds me of a Bible story about the woman at the well, who kept looking for things that would never quench her thirst/satisify her soul. I suspect that what the Cheesies are really desiring is a deeper, more loving, intimate, fulfilling sex life with each other. I know that feeling. When I read about Tantric Sex, I realized THAT was more what I needed in my own life. Sundance and I have always given it lip service, expressed an interest and a curiosity, but we haven't made a serious attempt to explore Tantric. Just on a personal note, that's something we're planning to check out. It does seem to be a way of tapping into that flow of love that never runs dry.

What I'm hearing about internet porn is, it's DIFFERENT than the days of looking at your dad's Playboys. Now it's click, click, click of the mouse -- the images at your fingertips move at a much faster pace, the viewer can get bored and desensitized much more quickly.

I'm really, really glad that CheesyLady has such a positive body image, yet there are so many women out there who don't. I have a pretty decent looking bod for my age and number of children I've had, yet I am still haunted by the images of "sexy" women that porn puts out there. I'm not like that! I'm a real person!

That's one thing I can't get past whenever I've seen porn. After a few minutes, I simply can't get it out of my head, "this is FAKE." I can immerse myself in the fantasy of a movie with a PLOT, but it seems when desire and arousal and orgasm are being superficially produced, for me it's just hollow. I do like the artistic element of the photos, however. But I'm not exactly jacking off to them, either!
 
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If the wife believes that sex outside of love is wrong (as opposed to simply being a choice), then it is entirely consistent with that if she says "I prefer you not to use porn because it encourages inappropriate thoughts".

This wife is trying to decide what is appropriate for someone else. I cannot imagine being told which thoughts are appropriate for me to have.

It's not a poly question. It's a question of what it means for you to respect another person's freedom to govern themselves so you can know and love them for who they are, not who you would like them to or are telling them to be.

My opinion is that if a person has a belief, it is their responsibility only to act according to that belief themselves, not to try to foist it on others.

Why does internet porn warrant a "belief" anyway? If you like it, you watch it, if not, you don't.

This is hitting a nerve for me, because of where I am in my life, I just wouldn't tolerate anyone telling me what to do in my private time or with my body. But I must remember that at one point when I was younger, I had an issue with porn (for me and for partners). Come to find out I was embarrassed for being so curious to look at it myself, but had lots of sex-negative residue in my brain that I had to grow out of. Once I sated my own curiosity, found what I liked and didn't like, the issue dissipated and the taboo was gone in my mind.

I don't watch porn regularly, but there are times when I get in the mood. I couldn't tell you what my partners do on a regular basis; it is fine for us to talk about it, share it, watch it, or not. Personal decision.

Just a thought-Make your own? Win-win.
-R
 
Just a thought-Make your own? Win-win.

Mrs Cheese did make her own. It's not the same.

One of the beauties of porn is that it is of other people, giving one some variety.

Of course, some pious people are told and believe that lusting after anyone else in your heart is just as bad as adultery. Every sex act, every sexual thought, should be only of your married, god-approved partner.

Baloney.
 
"Just a thought-Make your own? Win-win."

AWESOME. :D

Another thought -- I find that sometimes when we don't like something ourselves, especially if we dislike it to the point of revulsion, it can be hard to accept someone else liking it. This is basically the root of homophobia and a lot of other problems, but it can come up in much smaller ways too.

So, if *you* think porn is gross... for the fake bodies, for the lack of realism, or just because it doesn't turn you on at all... it could be very tempting to say to your partner "this is gross and it grosses me out that you enjoy it."

But the important thing to remember is just that people are different, and as long as it's not causing any sexual or relational problems then it's no more damaging than if you hate calamari and it makes you puke but your partner loves it.

One way to figure out if this is a part of the issue might be to ask yourself -- would I be upset if my partner were reading a racy erotic story? If not, then it might just be that you personally dislike the medium of porn, not the concept of your partner thinking sexy thoughts about people who aren't you. After all, you don't "love" the characters in a racy story.
 
Ask yourselves if you have the same feelings or beliefs about watching a movie or tv drama which portray murders and other violent or controversial emotionally-charged scenarios. Would you have a problem with your partner watching that because it encourages them to think about something you believe is wrong, and because murder is non-consensual?

If i haven't exposed you (the collective You) in hypocrisy yet, i suppose next you( the collective You) are going to tell me that you also insist on pre-screening every media product and popular-culture event so you can make sure they arent exposed to anything that encourages them to think about anything that is not ok with you? Is this a mature relationship between adults?

Does anyone else see where this is going?
 
Ask yourselves if you have the same feelings or beliefs about watching a movie or tv drama which portray murders and other violent or controversial emotionally-charged scenarios. Would you have a problem with your partner watching that because it encourages them to think about something you believe is wrong, and because murder is non-consensual?

If i haven't exposed you (the collective You) in hypocrisy yet, i suppose next you( the collective You) are going to tell me that you also insist on pre-screening every media product and popular-culture event so you can make sure they arent exposed to anything that encourages them to think about anything that is not ok with you? Is this a mature relationship between adults?

Does anyone else see where this is going?

You slay me (the collective Me).
-R
 
"Just a thought-Make your own? Win-win."

AWESOME. :D

Another person thinking this is the answer? Mrs Cheese did make her own. Pix of herself in lingerie. Maybe you mean she and Mr Cheese should make videos of themselves together actually fucking? That still doesn't solve the "variety is the spice of life" question.

So, if *you* think porn is gross... for the fake bodies, for the lack of realism...

Are people just reading the OP and not the whole thread? Mr Cheese prefers amateur porn. That would be non-porn stars, usually people actually in a relationship, with imperfect bodies, who even care about each other, going at it.
 
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