Ask a triad - advice column

Egad.

This thread has me feeling really sad for those of you who get into unsatisfactory and sometimes downright dismissive or abusive situations because you don't think you "have a right" to speak up and demand respect. There seems to be so, so-o-o-oo many, many misconceptions about polyamory, and triads, and what is "allowed."

My word, it's like three or four train wrecks all converged on this thread at once. Your continued participation in the shitty situation you're in doesn't serve you and only gives polyamory a bad name!

People, it's YOUR life and YOUR relationship, ask for what you want, and if you can't get it, grow a spine, put on the grown-up undies, and GET OUT, so you can hold your head up high.

DON'T ACCEPT WHATEVER CRUMBS ARE THROWN YOUR WAY - YOU DESERVE A DELICIOUS AND NOURISHING BANQUET!
 
Nadya, I understand all that... It probably wasn't the most desirable thing to happen, but Rae ended up needing to quit her job as a live-in health aid for the woman she was working for (She was emotionally abusive, and treated her like an indentured servant rather than an employee) and had nowhere else in the area to stay... so she's staying with us. She moved in about 2 weeks ago. I have therapy starting next week at the veterans center, which is very close by our house. I am thinking about bringing up our poly relationship dynamic and seeing if we can schedule group therapy sessions (since this therapy is free for me because of my veteran's status, I figure if this is an option it is definitely worth pursuing.) I really feel like being able to talk to a professional about the issues we're having would help us all.

One thing you should start doing immediately, if you care for Rae, is to start helping her find a place of HER OWN, not with you and Dani. Help Rae get back on her feet, with a roommate, etc. You and she will never get alone time, really, with Dani never leaving home. You're also creating a fairly serious ethical dilemma, as Rae is currently dependent on you and Dani for a place to live. This creates a power dynamic where Dani (and you) are in a power position over Rae, whether you intend it to or not, and it's NOT a healthy way to build an honest relationship.
 
I think that it isn't enough for a couple just to ask themselves what they want; they should also talk about why they want what they want.

So many people who are part of a couple looking for a third partner come here with a long list of rules that they either demand or felt pressured by their established partner to agree on -- and they never thought to question those rules nor negotiate.

We have seen these rules, which generally seem to come out of the swinging community or just plain brain-washing from our monogamous societies and families -- and really do not work well at all for polyamory -- stated by members here so many times they have become a stereotype:

"We only date as a couple."
"My husband will let me have a girlfriend but I am not allowed to be with another man."
"Our girlfriend can have sex with my husband only when I am present."
"All communications between our girlfriend and my spouse/partner will be shared with me."
"Anyone we get involved with is not allowed to have any other relationships with anyone else."
"Sex is allowed (as long as it is all three of us together), but falling in love is not."
"My spouse/primary partner is not allowed to have a baby with anyone but me."
"My spouse will always be primary and the gf/bf will always be secondary. If anything threatens my primary relationship, or if my primary is unhappy, I have to end things with the secondary."

WHY, WHY, WHY? Fear of competition? Sexism? Insecurity? A need to feel in control? A belief that this is how polyamory "should be" done? Something else?

Anyone who is looking for a triad and has these basic rules should not stop at just knowing what those are. Drill down to the nitty-gritty and figure out the why's behind them - that is where real partnership and discovery of what will satisfy each person will come. It is not enough to let the self-examination stop at just "this is what we/he/she want(s)" or "this is what I agreed to." What is the reason behind it?

I can give you one explanation for these as this has been my experience. The couple I am currently living with until I am literally back on my feet wanted me in their life so that they could have their cake and eat it too.

They were swinging for a while but the wife got tired of it and was ready to settle down and start a family but the husband had been spoiled to sex with different women (he's basically a child who gets his way pretty much no matter what, temper tantrums and all.) He was still playing on the side with her permission until a co-worker used a female friend to try and set him up because the co-worker wanted his job, and it almost worked. Somehow they became friends on Facebook and flirted and talked, then she showed up at his work claiming that he was a sexual predator and had harassed her and only agreed to not press charges if he went to counciling for his "sex addiction". (I'm not entirely sure that he doesn't have an addiction. Long story.) They decided then that he was only allowed to "play" with people from the swingers website they were on as a couple (partly because they felt that those people could be trusted) then they decided he could only be with women he had already been with because they decided to start a family and thought it was safer for the potential baby. That's when I was "invited" into a FWB relationship with the husband.

The wife and I have been best friends for 15 years and it boiled down to she knew I was clean and knew that I was freaky enough in the bedroom that I would probably keep him satisfied. Or not. What I found out later was that I was a "punishment" for her breaking their agreement while swinging that neither of them would have sex with anyone else without protection. She had to choose either me or her sister to "set" him up with. If I had known I never would have gotten into it to begin with.

Now I'm not going to say "never get into a triad, it doesn't work, stay away!" but I will say be very, very careful that the motivations are actually what the couple claim them to be. I got burned, badly. I hope triads work for others of you, I just don't know if I can do it again.
 
Your continued participation in the shitty situation you're in doesn't serve you and only gives polyamory a bad name!
Wow -- so it's not just my weird perception? :) I described it elsewhere as
Can you all please tell me how to start enjoying the taste of the sh!t sandwiches? I know you need to eat a lot of them to be poly, & there must be something wrong with me because I'm having a hard time.
& often people hereabouts step up with handy ways to make sh!t sandwiches a little less disgusting, & I want to jump around screaming WTF??? because I'm kinda ill-mannered that way.

Thank you, JustCurious83, for reminding me of that post.
We have seen these rules, which generally seem to come out of the swinging community or just plain brain-washing from our monogamous societies and families -- and really do not work well at all for polyamory -- stated by members here so many times they have become a stereotype.
WHY, WHY, WHY? Fear of competition? Sexism? Insecurity? A need to feel in control? A belief that this is how polyamory "should be" done?
The monogamist (& sometimes heterocentrist) mindset is indeed pernicious.

A while back, I mentioned the concept of the fnord, a trigger-word that sets off some sort of negative emotional reaction, making the victim easy to manipulate, & usually derailing the ability to rationally discuss or think about the topic at hand. A central feature of a fnord is that, having seen it, the victim immediately forgets about it, & is left with a bunch of free-floating anxiety from no obvious cause, so that anxiety gets attached to the nearest topic, person, place, whatever.

While real-world fnords don't magically disappear, we all experience this every day, with "common sense" assumptions that really don't bear up well under ANY scrutiny. Look at nycindie's list: it's all garbage left over from monogamist couple-front propaganda, & doesn't work particularly well even in a monogamous heterosexual world -- hence Open Marriage, a book often cited & rarely read: it's NOT about sexual nonmonogamy, rather an attack on the joined-at-the-hip couple front.

In my observation & experience, I have always been uncomfortable with the idea that closed (polyfidelitous) threesomes are polyamorous. They CAN be (& I've been in a happy one), but more often than not it seems that these are little more than societally typical dyadic marriages with one more person pasted in willy-nilly... as these stories appear to demonstrate, again & again.

Not that there's anything WRONG with that... except that monogamous marriage already often has a LOT of problems with unwarranted assumptions, deep failures of communication, insecurity, control issues, manipulation... & stuffing just one more person into that not only makes it worse, but is supposed to somehow magically FIX all those problems without actually examining them, or even admitting that they might exist.

Talking to unicorns (past, present, & future), it's dismaying to find how many of 'em seem to be one or more of
  • gullible
  • lying
  • deluded
They remind me of the women who're attracted to one "bad boy" after another because I can fix him with the power of my True Love! & soon ask for assistance dealing with abuse.

I find myself recommending counseling/therapy to a lot of people in triads circling the drain. Really, though, I don't see any good rason that people couldn't learn some of these skills BEFORE "finding our third." Is none of that covered in the Bibles (More Than Two, Ethical Slut, etc.)... or is everyone just skimming over the stuff that's icky ("that'll never apply to US 'cause of our LOVE!!")... or is it the Romantic notion that "it's too much like WORK, & everyone knows that True Love is EASY!!"?

:rolleyes:
 
You don't have it quite right. The word unicorn, in polyamory, is used as an insult toward the couple, not the woman! Historically, the terms "chasing unicorns" or "hunting unicorns" have always meant "seeking the impossible" (in literature, poetry, and everyday non-poly parlance) because unicorns are mythical creatures that do not exist in real life.

Therefore, when certain married couples started coming into poly communities, often from a swinging background, and were only looking for the stereotypical "hot bi babe" as an "add-on" or enhancement to the couple's relationship -- someone who would be unattached to anyone else, attracted to both husband and wife equally, either having to love both equally or not let emotions develop at all, and required to have sex with both of them in threesomes only, to be faithful to the couple from the start, and accepting that her schedule and needs come second after theirs -- quite often moving her in to their home before they really knew her (because a live-in sex toy who is dependent upon the couple is so-o-oooo much more convenient than an independent woman who lives on her own -- and, of course, it's all about what's convenient for the couple) while not being "allowed" to get pregnant, openly show affection with either of them nor reveal her status as their "third" in public or when their relatives are present, nor to have any expectations of privacy in her communications with either of them... well, obviously the old, established term "hunting unicorns" was brought to mind and used as a criticism of the unrealistic impossibility of what these folks were seeking. Telling people like that, that they are looking for a unicorn, is simply a way of telling them that what they want is ridiculous and ain't gonna happen.

Calling bisexual women, who happen to be involved with a couple, unicorns just isn't correct usage of the term, since unicorns are imaginary things. Of course, there are some instances where three people can successfully develop and maintain a relationship together, but that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily unicorn hunters or unicorns. It's the list of impossible demands that a couple requires that prompts others to call them uniicorn hunters.

This was exactly my situation minus the sex only as a threesome. There were times when I was "allowed" to be intimate with only one or the other, but it was few and far between until after the wife had her baby. 6 weeks no sex is hard on any man but especially one with an insanely high sex drive.
 
Ok so I've been in a triad a little over 2 years. I will call him M and her S. The first 6 months was a LDR and then I moved states away to be with them. It was rocky from the start of the move. There were alot of issues that I didn't know being states away I didn't see. Not bad just S with some insecurities. And at times it has gotten better for a bit and then I realize it's really not. I'm reminded semi regularly that "he's my fucking husband" . This is my first poly relationship and my first ff relationship. So Ive been of the mind set for a long time that I must be in the wrong or my thinking is incorrect. But I've recently opened my eyes to the fact that really I'm not. Alot of times I feel like a third wheel and completely on the out on some things plans, one on one time with him is pretty much a no unless it's extinuating circumstances that can't be helped. Ive learned that unless absolutely necessary M and I don't communicate with out her knowing all the details or a part of the conversation. The fight most of the time ain't worth it. So talking to them has became almost impossible most of the time. I'm at a loss on what to do. They get more secretive I get more bitchy we fight and nothing really gets changed bc I'm wrong. I'm open to pm with anyone that can help I do have more details thst can be given. I'm new to this forum so I do not know how to pm someone. Thanks everyone.

Poohbear, I would like to PM you because your situation sounds a lot like the what's happening with my girlfriend. My fiance who I have been with for 3 years acts a little bit like the way you describe S in your story. She doesn't really yell or fight with us... but she's rather insecure about me and my girlfriend spending time together and it does get difficult. Anyway, after I post this I'm going to shoot you a PM and we can talk more there. Hope you're doing okay.
 
Thanks for the great thread, still reading through it.

I think I am in what could be described as a non-sexual triad. Maybe that's not a thing, but that's how it feels.
Basically, my wife(joy) and I live with our good friend, call her Elle. We share house hold duties well, support each other emotionally, and love each other very much. When Elle officiated Joy and My marriage, we half joked that we were all three getting married. We even have three rings. Joy and I are very happy together, but everything is easier when Elle is around, and it really feels like home. I'm going to say that part again, because it's what has guided me through this so far without losing my mind.
it feels like home. All three of us.
I think it's fair to say that it goes beyond familial love, we are in love with each other.
It hasn't been easy.
It took me several years to admit to myself I was in love with Elle in addition to my Joy, and at first the realization was heartbreaking. It caused me to reexamine the monogamous paradigm i had been raised in, and that had caused me a lot of guilt and repressed feelings throughout my life and relationships.
But through reading a lot of good poly relationship advice here and elsewhere I've been able to talk to my wife and Elle about my feelings without everything imploding, and we are much stronger for it. But open doorways lead to more doorways.

The catch is quite a bit of sexual tension.

im not sure how to proceed...

While she has always been heterosexual, Joy is excited by the idea of a fmf threesome. We watch videos of lesbian couples or threesomes during sex, discuss the possibility of adding another woman to the bed, even sometimes talk about that person being Elle. A triad of Elle, Joy, and myself would solve most of the problems that would deter us from a unicorn hunt. we aren't looking for a stranger, we both really value emotional connection and intimacy during sex, and trust and communication are paramount for us if we are to do this.
Understandably, Joy is insecure about my interest and attraction for Elle coming between us.
It might not make sense, but I feel like this is a last barrier between the three of us and an amazing, beautiful relationship. (It's already an amazing beautiful relationship, but something incredible is around the corner, I can feel it)
I have somewhat timidly broached the unicorn subject with Elle, she seemed excited but noncommittal. Understandably, since We both don't want Joy to feel betrayed. Elle's last relationship ended when her best friend began sleeping with her then boyfriend behind her back, and then used some pseudo poly-bullshit to avoid responsibility for her actions. so we are all pretty sensitive to something like that.
We are strong, not without our bruises and scars and chips on shoulders and insecurities, but our hearts are in the right place. I'm very happy with everything as it is, but it feels a little neither here nor there.
Any advice going forward?
 
Hi Self,

Just make sure that whatever you do, you have all three persons' consent, and that all three persons know what they're consenting to. And if you have a threesome, make sure no one feels left out.

It sounds like you might want to do a little more communicating with Joy and Elle before moving forward.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thanks Kevin.
Yes. I think I need to talk to each of them more about it and then have a talk together if it seems like we are up for it.
 
I think this is between Joy and Elle. If they are attracted to each other, if Joy is feeling she may be less straight than she thought, and wants to work out verbally or physically if that is so, that is something she and Elle can explore.

Making it about "unicorns" and "threesomes" is using couples privilege. Your wife hiding behind you by engaging in a threeway sex situation could cause this to implode. You're already banging 2 women. Do you really need to be there as a go between, as they explore the depth of their sexual attraction together?

Elle might feel used if, when engaged in this sex scene, Joy won't do anything to her, but just lies back and makes Elle do all the cunnilingus etc. This happens with straight bi-curious women and bisexual women all the time in threesomes, and it can lead to deeply hurt feelings and rifts between all three people.
 
You are a god send!

It's nice to meet you - I'm brand new here.

It gives me hope to see how happy you all seem to be, and that this community seems so dang supportive. I hope you can help -

I just posted an appallingly long post about some intense struggles I'm having in a new triad. I could really use your expertise , it's posted in "Poly Relationships Corner" titled: Ill and Desperate for Help in Triad!

I really hope you can help me through this, and I hope that in some way, I can give back to you.
 
Does it even have to be a triad, self? Why not a V type relationship with you as the hinge? If the women are not in love with each other it's ok to not force that. If your wife wants to explore with a woman it can stay physical and everybody will know what they get into without the pressure of deep feelings evolving there.
 
It's nice to meet you - I'm brand new here.

It gives me hope to see how happy you all seem to be, and that this community seems so dang supportive. I hope you can help -

I just posted an appallingly long post about some intense struggles I'm having in a new triad. I could really use your expertise , it's posted in "Poly Relationships Corner" titled: Ill and Desperate for Help in Triad!

I really hope you can help me through this, and I hope that in some way, I can give back to you.

HopeEternal, happytriad hasn't been back to the board in a year or so...
 
Hi HopeEternal, I visited your other thread and responded there. Check it out. Long story short, I think you need to be your own best friend, and advocate for yourself. It will not be easy ...

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.
 
I think this is between Joy and Elle. If they are attracted to each other, if Joy is feeling she may be less straight than she thought, and wants to work out verbally or physically if that is so, that is something she and Elle can explore.

Making it about "unicorns" and "threesomes" is using couples privilege. Your wife hiding behind you by engaging in a threeway sex situation could cause this to implode. You're already banging 2 women. Do you really need to be there as a go between, as they explore the depth of their sexual attraction together?

Elle might feel used if, when engaged in this sex scene, Joy won't do anything to her, but just lies back and makes Elle do all the cunnilingus etc. This happens with straight bi-curious women and bisexual women all the time in threesomes, and it can lead to deeply hurt feelings and rifts between all three people.

Does it even have to be a triad, self? Why not a V type relationship with you as the hinge? If the women are not in love with each other it's ok to not force that. If your wife wants to explore with a woman it can stay physical and everybody will know what they get into without the pressure of deep feelings evolving there.





Hi Phy & Magdlyn, thank you for the replies.

as you must know, this is all really, really challenging.

I really appreciate any guidance; i dont feel very comfortable communicating about my situation to anyone around me because I can only envision it making everything a whole lot more messy.

i just wrote a lot, several times, and erased it, several times. I'm going to try again later.
 
i guess what I need is practical advice on educating and discussing this with Joy and Elle. I want Joy to feel supported and not abandoned, and I want to discuss things with Elle in such a way that I am respectful of her agency in the situation and not betraying Joy somehow.

Ive been able to talk about it with Joy somewhat, but its hard to educate her on poly communication, trust, and honesty, without seeming like I am just advocating for sex with Elle (or her reading it that way) which I guess I am, in a way, but more importantly I am advocating for an honest relationship in which I can express my feelings without hurting Joy or making Elle uncomfortable (whether because Joy gets jealous or because I dont feel comfortable to express my feelings and am unable to properly).

I cant find much advice about what this is.
 
The best educational tool I know of for people new to poly (e.g. Joy?) is Franklin Veaux's Poly FAQ page. Check it out and see if it sounds helpful. If it does, you might want to ask Joy and/or Elle to read it themselves.
 
i guess what I need is practical advice on educating and discussing this with Joy and Elle. I want Joy to feel supported and not abandoned, and I want to discuss things with Elle in such a way that I am respectful of her agency in the situation and not betraying Joy somehow.

Ive been able to talk about it with Joy somewhat, but its hard to educate her on poly communication, trust, and honesty, without seeming like I am just advocating for sex with Elle (or her reading it that way) which I guess I am, in a way, but more importantly I am advocating for an honest relationship in which I can express my feelings without hurting Joy or making Elle uncomfortable (whether because Joy gets jealous or because I dont feel comfortable to express my feelings and am unable to properly).

I cant find much advice about what this is.

I misread earlier. I thought you and Elle were already shagging.

Hmm...

I don't know exact advice to give other than to be extremely careful to communicate very openly and honestly. Joy and Elle love each other? You love both? You feel sexual tension for Elle? You're afraid that if you begin sex with Elle, Joy will feel fear of losing you?

Before you DO anything, read read read. Besides the More Than Two website, there is a great book by the same name, and another good one called Opening Up, focusing on mono couples transitioning to poly.

It can be very difficult to break away from our mono programming. Ideally a formerly mono couple would take a good year or even two to work on feelings and strategies and boundaries before actually taking the plunge (pun intended).

Good luck! Being a hinge in a V, you in the middle, having both women as lovers, but they aren't having sex with each other, takes a lot of responsiblity and finesse. Doing a full on triad where everyone is in love and sexually involved, is even harder, and it's rarer to make it work long term.

Does Elle have any other sexual partners? Is she just burning with desire? Would that make her do unwise things?
 
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