Trying Not To Be Possessive

CaptainCarrot

New member
First, a bit of background.

In the three years my wife and I dated prior to getting engaged, we experienced major toxicity from both our families.
Hers shared prescription drugs, and the addictions which came with them.
Mine tried to force their religion on people, then bathed in an ocean of hypocrisy.

We looked to our relationship as a way of escape, and looked forward to marriage so that we could be our own, separate unit.

Which was great for years.
We had a shared social circle, shared hobbies and many deep interests, and generally operated in an Us Against the World mentality, especially for the year we moved away from everyone we knew.

By most measurements of relationship strength, we were solid bedrock.
Part of her efforts in broaching the subject of opening up, a little over two years ago, involved pointing that out, in the midst of reassurance that WE weren't going anywhere.

Which was fine, until she actually developed a deeper attachment.

And suddenly I realized I'd been operating on a very long list of false assumptions.
Among them, that WE would be permanent, and any new relationships would be inherently temporary.

So here we are, going on nine years of marriage, and her secondary relationship going on nine months, and I apparently can't handle it.

To be clear: I understand that I do not have a right to her attention, to her time, or to her body.
I understand that in the front of my brain.

However, the back of my brain (where my identity lives) is getting ripped to shreds in uncertainty and insecurity.
I have spent more than a decade building an identity which starts with "her boyfriend/husband," yet now it all feels fragile because I clearly wasn't enough.

Which leads into all kinds of deep dark emotional pits, and toxic questions.
"What am I doing wrong?"
"What did I do when we were dating that I'm not doing now so that she isn't attracted to me anymore?"
"What is he doing that I'm not doing that leads her to want to spend time with him?"
"Why am I not enough?"

It doesn't help that my own attempts at secondary relationships have just disproven another of my prior assumptions:
That "my needs" is some kind of communal bank account which all my relationships deposit into, and that as long as someone's making deposits, everything's fine.
When in reality, at least in my experience, each relationship is its own entity that has to be independently supportive of all of my needs.
NRE, while fun at the time, has left me feeling vacant when thinking about my marriage, and her experiencing it with her boyfriend just fires up all of the above toxic questions.


My whole identity as a married man centers around the idea that there are only ever two kinds of people:
1) Us (my wife and me)
2) Everyone Else (...yeah)
Group #2 comes and goes throughout our life, but WE remain.


...and that mindset is now apparently pushing my wife away.

So, with all that various and sundry brain-vomit in mind, my question for the forum:
How do I get past that mindset?
 
While you thought your relationship was built on bedrock, it was built on the shaky ground of co-dependency. The first order of business is to not define yourself by what you are to others. Quit defining yourself as a married man. You are a man who happens to be married, but there is more to your life than that. If there isn't then you need to venture out on your own and pursue things that might only interest you.

When two people come together as a means of escape from their respective lives it is only a matter of time before they realize there is more to life than each other. Nine years is a long time to live like that. It's not that you are not enough. There is no such thing as enough.

Can you change your mindset from mono to poly? Yes, but it's not easy. It involves a lot of introspection. In the end you may find that poly isn't for you.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

However, the back of my brain (where my identity lives) is getting ripped to shreds in uncertainty and insecurity.
I have spent more than a decade building an identity which starts with "her boyfriend/husband," yet now it all feels fragile because I clearly wasn't enough.

I wonder why you don't think "Me building this kind of identity is not enough to sustain me in my present. It was ok to get me through my past, but I need something else for THIS phase of my life."

You seem to be saying "I am not enough for her." Well, no. You might be enough YOU. But no. You cannot be two people. And if what she wants in this phase of her life is having more than one partner/variety of partners? She suggests changing models to Open?

You can either be up for that or not be. But you cannot wave a magic wand and become more than 1 partner. You are not enough in that sense. You are not magic.

I think you could work on knowing your own self better, rather than limiting your own self to just "husband."

I am ME. Like "Galagirl" is the name of the newspaper. And inside there are articles -- me as a mom, me as a wife, me as a worker, me as a volunteer, me doing eldercare, me gardening -- there's a lot of articles in there. But the name of the newspaper is still GALAGIRL.

If your newspaper headline has been "THIS MARRIED COUPLE?" You may have lost sight of who YOU are. It could be the other way around. The headline could be CAPTAIN CARROT and "Carrot as husband" is just one article it the paper. Or even a whole section because you like that a lot. But a newspaper has to have other sections. It cannot be only the sports or only the comics. YKWIM?

If you have spent too much time on this one article or one section and neglected other parts of yourself/your newspaper? Time to become a more balanced person maybe. And your present situation is holding that up as a mirror to you.

"What am I doing wrong?"

Nothing. Other than kinda beating up on your own self.

Changes and coming to new realizations can be tough, but there's not need to add being your own self bully to it.

"What did I do when we were dating that I'm not doing now so that she isn't attracted to me anymore?"

Could ask her if she's still attracted to you and if there is anything missing from the you+ her relationship. How have you been participating in this relationship?

"What is he doing that I'm not doing that leads her to want to spend time with him?"

When you date? You kinda have to spend time with the other person to get to know them. How else does dating happen?

If she's not also dating you, mismanging her time, taking you for granted, putting you through poly hell -- address it.

"Why am I not enough?"

I don't know if this helps you any.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articl...nster-managing-jealousy-in-open-relationships

If the bottom line is that you want to be doing Closed? Your fav way of relating is 1:1? It may be a case of you want one kind of relationship model and and she wants another. This experiment may have taught you that you don't really like doing Open/Poly.

You may be enough, but the problem is NOT you. It may be that the relationship models you each want are compatible any more. :(

When in reality, at least in my experience, each relationship is its own entity that has to be independently supportive of all of my needs.

Yup. Just like your wife being kind and respectful did not "make up" for your toxic family somehow. For it to be healthy with your family members? THEY have to be relating to you in good ways.

It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of discomfort. Because previously held beliefs are having to change/update.

My whole identity as a married man centers around the idea that there are only ever two kinds of people:
1) Us (my wife and me)
2) Everyone Else (...yeah)
Group #2 comes and goes throughout our life, but WE remain

That's really limited. Where did YOU go in all that?

Books, TV, media, society sometimes encourages that kind of thinking. That "my better half" thing like you are not your own whole person on your own. You need that other person to "complete you."

But two half people coming together? They might make a whole couple. But the half people are still half people. Sometimes they get all gung-ho on the couple end of the things and stop trying to work on themselves and become whole people. They rely on the partner to "fill the gaps" rather than fill them themselves. They become dependent or codependent on that other person.

Like the letter "A". Two people holding hands and leaning in to prop each other up. But if anything kicks them, or something happens to one partner, they topple from the leaning.

As opposed to the letter "H." Two people holding hands but still standing on their own two feet. If anything kicks them, they aren't so fragile. If something happens to the other partner? They are still standing.

I love my husband a lot, but eventually one of us will die. We are not a "permanent" couple. Or... rather than physical death, the union could spiritually die. We grow apart or change over time. Life is LONG. Things happen in a life. Which is why we relate in the way we do -- daily tending, treating each day as precious.

I get that you had to rely on each other while leaving each of your toxic families. You had to be kind of letter "A." But maybe now that you have left that toxicity? It's ok to keep unfolding and start to become more letter "H." That doesn't have to mean ruin. It could mean continuing to move on toward healthier relating and healthier relationships. Still holding hands, but more standing on your own two feet rather that dependent/codependent.

...and that mindset is now apparently pushing my wife away.

I used to date a guy who wanted to be all letter "A" with me. Together, together, together. Relying on me to fill his gaps. Wanting us to be codependent and upset I didn't want to be like that. Drove me crazy because it was suffocating. I wanted to be with him, I loved him. But I wanted a partner person. Not a patient case load. He wanted me to be his everything, and he wanted to be my everything. He did not like it when I did things myself or asked people other than him for help. Where I didn't want to be filling the "never ending black hole." I wanted him to heal himself and become a whole person himself. I didn't want to be always "completing" him. I didn't want to live in a "bubble of 2."

We parted ways and it wasn't til almost 10 years later that I got a call from him out of the blue where he apologized and wanted to share he was now in therapy to work on liking himself and become more of a whole person on his own. I was glad he was finally getting help.

How do I get past that mindset?

Which mindset?

If you have found that you actually prefer to practice Closed? Be Closed. It might mean you and wife and no longer compatible if she now wants to do Open.

If you mean you want to become more your own person and not expect a partner to "complete you" -- then work on becoming your own person. Change newspaper headline to CAPTAIN CARROT and leave "Carrot as husband" for one section or article in the paper rather than the whole paper.

If you mean you want to update how you view your relationships as "us vs them" and want to expand to more circles of relationships? Draw it out.

  • There's you in the center.
  • The next circle of intimacy is you and spouse.
  • Then the next circle might be children.
  • Then family/close friends.
  • Then casual friends/coworkers.

And so on. However it is that it fits you. It sounds like a two circle model of "us/them" no longer works for you. You need more nuanced circles. You can google "circles of intimacy" to see pictures of some.

And if it helps?

I've been married for decades. And I have this understanding of my marriage -- it's not a rock or a sweater that I can take for granted and put on a shelf. This thing I HAVE. Like a possession.

It's more like caring for a plant. It needs care and tending, daily. There needs to be active participation. Every day I choose my spouse. Every day he chooses me. I "water" our marriage daily in small ways. So does he.

We cannot neglect the relationship, and then pour gallons of water at the end of the year thinking -- "There. That oughta hold it. That was all it's yearly water intake. I gave it." A snowman sweater might be ok on a shelf all year and only pulled out to wear at Xmas. A quick wash and its good to go.

A plant? Not so much. The HOW matters. If I put it on the shelf and do nothing all year? By the end of the year? It's been long wilted and died. It doesn't matter that all this water got poured on at the end of the year. Now I just have a dead plant sitting in mud.

One of the problems with that one ex? By the time I decided to leave because the relationship had become a drag? Him pouring all this affection and attention on me was too little too late. It was like pouring gallons at the end of the year. I didn't want it any more and I didn't care. And he was only doing it because I was leaving. He wasn't doing it because he suddenly became healthy and was interested in having a participatory relationship with me.

I think you could do some soul searching and identify all the areas that you need to work on. It's not just the marriage from the sound of it. Then attend to each in turn. One thing at a time. Whether poly is or is not for you in the end? I think you could improve your self identity and update beliefs you have outgrown either way.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Vinsanity hit it on the head.

You are your own person, and you need to find value in that where you're not just "someone's husband." Now, you can ALSO be someone's husband and be super imporant to each other and deeply love each other, but that isn't the core of who you are, or shouldn't be.

I'll also note that just because your wife sees something in someone else, that doesn't mean that she finds you "lacking." Even if the other partner brings something to the table, that doesn't mean that you're "not enough."

My partners are all very different people. One is submissive, one is dominant. 2 are kinky, 1 is not. 2 are tall, 1 is not. 2 are social, 1 is not. 2 are artistic, 1 is not. 2 have mental health struggles, 1 does not. And each of those combinations are all different between the 3 of them. BUT, all of those differences doesn't leave me feeling like any 1 of them isn't "enough" for me because it's not about "enough." I happen to like a very broad range of traits in people that means it would be damn near impossible for any 1 person to be interested in EVERY thing that I'm interested in. That doesn't make them lacking, it just makes them not exactly the same as me.

I would urge you to try to spend less time comparing yourself to another partner, both inscritinizing the ways you're the same (no, that doesn't mean you're being replaced) or the ways you're different (no, that doesn't mean you're lacking). And remind yourself that even with all that NRE swirling around in your partner's head, she still loves you and is choosing to be in a relationship with you every new day.
 
In the three years my wife and I dated prior to getting engaged, we experienced major toxicity from both our families.

We looked to our relationship as a way of escape, and looked forward to marriage so that we could be our own, separate unit.

We... generally operated in an Us Against the World mentality... we were solid bedrock.

I have spent more than a decade building an identity which starts with "her boyfriend/husband," yet now it all feels fragile because I clearly wasn't enough.

So, with all that various and sundry brain-vomit in mind, my question for the forum: How do I get past that mindset?

Okay, CaptainCarrot... well, it seems to me that you understand on an intellectual/conscious level that you and Melody are two separate individuals and as such, your marriage, as solid and united as it's been, does not intrinsically mean your wife "owes" you anything, including her body or her exclusive attentions.

However, on a "gut" level, your emotions are at odds with that view - understandably, I might add, due to your respective difficult family backgrounds which were in large part the reason you formed such a seemingly cohesive and unbreachable unit. Not to mention the mindset and habits that stem from social conditioning and have been further entrenched during years of monogamy.

At the time you two were dating and first married, your "us against the world" mentality probably served you well, enabling you BOTH to break from bad situations and shed the shackles of your less than ideal upbringings.

The thing is... instead of using the love and support of a partner to bolster each other's individuality, strengths and ambitions, you developed as a SINGLE UNIT only, without paying enough attention to developing as unique beings with needs and desires that may not always or necessarily be best served by "the couple".

A romantic partnership/couple/dyad is meant to consist of two people whose personalities and attributes are meant to "complement" each other, not "complete" each other - as if you would be otherwise INcomplete. I believe this is the trap you've fallen into... meaning that instead of forming a cohesive union, you've formed a codependent one.

I can't speak for Melody's reasons for wanting to open up the marriage, but it's possible that at some point she began to feel constrained by the nature of your relationship and/or your attitude. After all, it had been years since the immediate "threat" posed by your families' toxicity had passed. You no longer needed to cling so tightly to each other (your "other half") in order to feel some degree of emotional security.

There is a danger in highly dependent relationships that at least one party may begin to feel somewhat "captive" to the wants and needs of the other. Almost like Stockholm Syndrome, the conflict lies in feeling an intense bond/loyalty to the other person, on one hand, while at the same time wanting to break free or rebel. Without room to breathe, this unnatural closeness may lead to resentment and the eventual implosion of the unit.

This doesn't mean that every marriage wherein the partners are super close is destined for divorce, or that the "cure" in every case is opening up and taking other sexual partners... but in your case, the latter is where it has led, and seemingly your wife remains content with her choice.

I assume she is treating you well - i.e. she understands that you're still struggling and isn't throwing her other relationship in your face (anymore?) - and that she's willing to work with you to help you overcome your insecurities and reassure you that you haven't done anything "wrong", and that it's not a matter of being "enough/not enough", but rather, this is about what SHE needs at this point in her life. (?)

If she is NOT doing her bit to allay the worst of your fears, then they may not be so unrealistic. (I haven't read back through your old threads, so I can't quite recall where you're at with her other relationship, therapy, reading etc.)

In your particular case, CaptainCarrot, I think you almost need to work on "de-entwining" somewhat from the primary relationship before you'll be truly ready to accept and freely choose a polyamorous lifestyle.


My own attempts at secondary relationships have just disproven another of my prior assumptions:
That "my needs" is some kind of communal bank account which all my relationships deposit into, and that as long as someone's making deposits, everything's fine.
When in reality, at least in my experience, each relationship is its own entity that has to be independently supportive of all of my needs.

I know many polyamorous people take the attitude (neither rightly or wrongly) that if something is "lacking" in one relationship, or some area of that relationship, they can "make up for it" in another.

This really works for some - for example, in relationships with mismatched libidos, or where a primary partner has completely different sexual kinks, interests or hobbies, or works away from home a lot. The partner whose needs are not being met may choose poly as a way of compensating for the lack, or choose a partner whose attributes will allow them to feel fulfilled.

That said, I have discovered since beginning my own poly journey that I am more like you in this regard, CC ... i.e. BOTH of my relationships need to satisfy me in ALL aspects, at least to some degree.

At first, I didn't think it would be like that, and I tried it the other way... in other words, I initially became involved with my second partner, Boho, because Jester wasn't meeting my needs in some areas (sexually, communication wise etc). Unfortunately, I soon discovered that it made ZERO difference if these needs WERE being met exceptionally well by Boho... I STILL needed Jester to provide me with those same things over in his/my relationship, because the part of me that loves HIM needs to feel he desires me and wants to be emotionally present with me, as much as I want that with him.

My partners complement each other in some areas, and have different strengths and weaknesses, but they are not interchangeable.
 
Hello CaptainCarrot,

It kind of sounds like poly has betrayed you. Like, you were willing to try it, but when the rubber met the road, you found yourself dealing with painful questions such as, "What am I doing wrong?" and, "Why am I not enough?" and maybe you had heard that poly was a great thing and you were looking forward to it, only to find out it was not great at all. I want to express my regret and sorrow that maybe you were misled, I feel that you will have to disentangle yourself from poly, and it will not be easy. I can only hope that I'm wrong, that the others' posts are more correct and poly can work for you. If you're willing, keep us posted as your situation evolves.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

Codependency definitely appears to be at least a large part of the issue, after even a brief bit of research into it.
Probably the biggest red flag indicating codependency is that I haven't felt like I had the right to say NO on way too many occasions, at the very least since we opened up if not going back farther.

Strangely enough, codependency can apparently result from...wait for it...CHILD ABUSE. (see my other thread)

We have a session scheduled with a couple's therapist this coming weekend.
We had already scheduled it just to get some feedback, but now I think we have a more solid starting point.

Giving a name to the issue has improved my overall outlook on us being able to move forward together, because up until now it was just a vague, seemingly unrelated set of behavior problems.
 
Re:
"We have a session scheduled with a couple's therapist this coming weekend."

That's good news. I am hopeful that that will help you dig through the issues and get some healing.
 
I'm glad you feel a bit better for being able to name what it is or what part of it is.

I hope the initial appointment goes well, and that the therapist is able to help you with the codependency/healing from past child abuse over time.

GL!
Galagirl
 
UPDATE.

Codependency confirmed, as a result of child abuse (the therapist basically diagnosed my dad with narcissistic personality disorder in absentia).

Our next session is in two weeks, and in the meantime I have homework: brainstorming how I can use the nights my wife is with her boyfriend for positive, self-affirming activity instead of getting bogged down with my Toxic Questions Brigade.
This should have the twofold effect of getting me thinking more positively in general, and using time I'm alone to further develop my own identity.


Sidebar: I really wish therapists would advertise whether or not they understand polyamory on their website or through insurance carriers. The session was only supposed to be an hour, but went well over because the first thirty minutes were spent explaining that it isn't "just" an open marriage.
 
IME, there's "poly friendly" therapists who have a very specific idea of what polyamory "should" be. For instance, if THEIR "poly" is a closed FMF triad, then anything else risks being painted as wrong.

I'd say that getting an attentive person up to speed is a wise investment.
 
IME, there's "poly friendly" therapists who have a very specific idea of what polyamory "should" be. For instance, if THEIR "poly" is a closed FMF triad, then anything else risks being painted as wrong.

I'd say that getting an attentive person up to speed is a wise investment.

True, but I'm not sure it actually clicked.

As part of the "final questions" segment of the session, she sincerely asked Melody if she would consider closing back up.
 
she sincerely asked Melody if she would consider closing back up.
I don't see how that is at all a negative. You seem to be saying that your therapist is somehow anti-polyamory for not trying to inflict a One Holy Way upon her clients.

There's certainly no reason for a professional to assume that seeking mulitiple intimate relationships is NOT neurotic acting-out or a distraction/avoidance tactic.

I hope you don't hold a notion of seeking counsel from someone whose role is merely to help you make the best of your presuppositions.
 
As part of the "final questions" segment of the session, she sincerely asked Melody if she would consider closing back up.

I think that is a fair question to ask in a "get to know you" session.

The counselor has to find out...

  • What people's hard limits are. ("No way, never!")
  • What the soft limits are. ("No" for now, but in time it could change to "yes.")
  • What are the places that could bend. ("Yes" for a short while, but this is not a forever solution.)
  • And what are the joyous yes places. ("Yes! I would love to do that!")

Then they can try to help figure out potential strategies to help people efficiently rather than stabbing in the dark or suggesting stuff that is totally not workable with the people in question.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
In the three years my wife and I dated prior to getting engaged, we experienced major toxicity from both our families.
Hers shared prescription drugs, and the addictions which came with them.
Mine tried to force their religion on people, then bathed in an ocean of hypocrisy.

We looked to our relationship as a way of escape, and looked forward to marriage so that we could be our own, separate unit.

Which was great for years.
We had a shared social circle, shared hobbies and many deep interests, and generally operated in an Us Against the World mentality, especially for the year we moved away from everyone we knew.

By most measurements of relationship strength, we were solid bedrock.
Part of her efforts in broaching the subject of opening up, a little over two years ago, involved pointing that out, in the midst of reassurance that WE weren't going anywhere.

Which was fine, until she actually developed a deeper attachment.

And suddenly I realized I'd been operating on a very long list of false assumptions.
Among them, that WE would be permanent, and any new relationships would be inherently temporary.

So here we are, going on nine years of marriage, and her secondary relationship going on nine months, and I apparently can't handle it.

To be clear: I understand that I do not have a right to her attention, to her time, or to her body.
I understand that in the front of my brain.

However, the back of my brain (where my identity lives) is getting ripped to shreds in uncertainty and insecurity.
I have spent more than a decade building an identity which starts with "her boyfriend/husband," yet now it all feels fragile because I clearly wasn't enough.


Which leads into all kinds of deep dark emotional pits, and toxic questions.
"What am I doing wrong?"
"What did I do when we were dating that I'm not doing now so that she isn't attracted to me anymore?"
"What is he doing that I'm not doing that leads her to want to spend time with him?"
"Why am I not enough?"

It doesn't help that my own attempts at secondary relationships have just disproven another of my prior assumptions:
That "my needs" is some kind of communal bank account which all my relationships deposit into, and that as long as someone's making deposits, everything's fine.
When in reality, at least in my experience, each relationship is its own entity that has to be independently supportive of all of my needs.
NRE, while fun at the time, has left me feeling vacant when thinking about my marriage, and her experiencing it with her boyfriend just fires up all of the above toxic questions.


My whole identity as a married man centers around the idea that there are only ever two kinds of people:
1) Us (my wife and me)
2) Everyone Else (...yeah)
Group #2 comes and goes throughout our life, but WE remain.


...and that mindset is now apparently pushing my wife away.

So, with all that various and sundry brain-vomit in mind, my question for the forum:
How do I get past that mindset?


No sure if this is going to be helpful or not but I remember the last time you came for advice and you believed at the time that your relationship with your father / childhood trauma was factor in relating to other men and somehow fixing that would make the BF intrusion more enjoyable for you. This time around with your set of what, why questions you again are reaching back to toxic family exposure.

I have know idea we’re the line would be on codependent and what’s a healthy us vs them mentality. I beleive most families have a team mentality and that it’s generally viewed as good.

The questions you’ve raised are for the most part fair average for what we see here. My point here is those thoughts and feeling are very common without any family issues. No need to look backwards for an answer or a cause.


You’re question was how do you get past the mindset ?

My question back is are you sure it’s the mindset ? And this mindset was never thought of when you decided to open up your marriage. How was bringing these people into your lives suppose to work ?? wouldn’t that make for a much bigger “us “ ?

My memory on your other thread or threads is short so I can’t rememeber who’s idea and how this all started so I’ll go back and read those before suggesting anything.
 
So i went looking and didnt find the history of how you decided to open your marriage and whos idea it was and the motivation behind it.


Has the therapy and suggestions/ brainstorming helped ??

I thought of something if space and household accommodations would work. Try finding an outside activity on nights she in the house and try sleeping separate a few nights a week in say a guest room or on a couch. It seems counterintuitive but its giving you choice and its sort of a training wheel move on less dependance.
 
Back
Top