Meanwhile - at Church today.

Al99

Well-known member
I have previously shared on the religion board of the forum that my personal spiritual belief system might be broadly categorized as de-mythologized Platonic-Christian Gnosticism. My wife has not given the subject as much thought as I have. :) But we did make a decision to raise our daughter in church - but only in a progressive and theologically-socially liberal environment. We found such a place - even has a very active LGBT support group.

So my daughter and I went to church this morning - as my wife was out of town with her boyfriend - and with me knowing that she would be getting shagged at the same time we were sitting in a pew - adding a touch of irony to the whole experience. (In case anyone is wondering.... she called to say good morning to our daughter on our way to church - and told me she would be back on the road after a "goodbye moment", with both of us understanding what that meant).

But back to the story - we were sitting in the rear of the church - and in the pew in front of us were three ladies sitting next to each other - who were almost certainly in a Lesbian triad (or possibly V - with the hinge in the middle). I had met the middle lady and the one to her left before - and they are an open, committed Lesbian couple. The lady in the middle was engaged in affectionate touches with both of the other ladies, holding hands, touches, etc. And at the "peace point" - they had a wonderful group hug. Of course, nothing is certain - an it really doesn't matter, of course - but it made me smile, especially given what my wife was up to right about then. :)

I did ask the pastor what he thought about polyamory once (which required explaining what poly is - and relating that we have a lady friend with two husbands - more or less true) - which he thought was completely different than the gay marriage issues - and he is about as liberal as they come in a mainline protestant church. I did give him a friendly warning that I had read some about it - and had learned that it was a small but growing movement, and that he should probably be prepared to see it, given the liberal reputation of the church...... and here we have it - on the third row from the back. (Not to mention the closeted guy on the next row back, sitting next to his young daughter) :) Al
 
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Now that's my kind of church service, :D
 
As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church.

I dunno. I'd feel weird having to hip my pastor to my kind of relationship. And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all. But many poly people can't be "out," in church, in school, at work, in their families, without severe repercussions. Loss of family, jobs, even a home if your landlord is a dick.

So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I'm rambling here, but there was something about your post that made me feel uneasy.
 
As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church

Given my spiritual orientation, and my wife's misgivings about her childhood church experience, it is doubtful that we would be attending church either if we did not have a child. And while obviously opinions vary, we both believed that - all things considered - it would be beneficial to raise our daughter in this church - especially one of the progressive, liberal variety. We both believe that this church can provide a positive environment as our daughter grows up - and ultimately she will make her own choice about her spirituality - as we all do ( I was raised in an evangelical fundamentalist church - but don't regret it - even though I abandoned that theology before I turned 18).
Even though I do not subscribe to the official theology of our church, I find that I can enjoy the service in a general sense (although this would not be true in an evangelical setting).

And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all.

Well - while I am certainly not beyond being intrigued by the sexual possibilities of a lesbian threesome, I can honestly say that this was not my thought at the time. I noted with interest - obviously - that they appeared to be poly - but found myself warmed by the affections shown - but in the same way I would have been if had been a hetero couple holding hands. And I was also a bit distracted by the thought that my wife was getting laid at the same time. Anyway -Krishna told me - on the sly - that it was all good. :)

And, on a more serious note - yes, it is very unfortunate that most poly folks must remain closeted for fear of repercussions. It certainly would be quite unfortunate if my wife and I were somehow outed.

Hope everyone has a great week! Al
 
So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I guess it's tangential to the discussion, but this is poignant.
 
As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church.

I dunno. I'd feel weird having to hip my pastor to my kind of relationship. And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all. But many poly people can't be "out," in church, in school, at work, in their families, without severe repercussions. Loss of family, jobs, even a home if your landlord is a dick.

So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I'm rambling here, but there was something about your post that made me feel uneasy.

And your post makes me feel uneasy. Why would you reduce a loving relationship to a sexual threesome? Yikes!

Even though I am an Atheist, I think it's fantastic that they have a place they can go worship whatever and feel free to be themselves. The way most church people deal with homosexuality makes me sick.

What I don't get is why people want to belong to a church that doesn't want them as a member? That has to be an awful thing to go through.
 
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What I don't get is why people want to belong to a church that doesn't want them as a member? That has to be an awful thing to go through.

I'm agnostic myself but attended church "religiously" for the 1st 18 years of my life because...parents. The beautiful part, for me, was that we were never pressed to "believe", just attend.

There were parts of church that I loved, the music, the rituals, the candles, being able to sing (in my off-key way) out loud (I love hymns! - especially the old ones). I can't argue that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament don't warm my soul/conscious - be a good person, help your fellow man, don't judge - how are those lessons wrong? I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

But the parts that I was most drawn too, the parts that I felt mattered, were the parts that focused on "service" to our fellow man. Working in the soup kitchen, collecting clothes for the homeless, donating my pumpkin-selling money to Unicef to get poor kids immunized against fatal yet preventable disease. Today? I don't need to attend church to do these things, I do them every day.

I think that a lot of people would like to believe that there is "more" to our existence than our limited lifespan on this planet. So the church's "promises" on that account are reassuring. I'm not convinced that there is actually anything beyond our "now" - so i have to do the best that i can in the time I have. To make the world a better/happier place.
 
I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

There are a few select books that comprise my "personal canon" - "Stranger" is among them. :)

Although I came into the poly world quite unexpectedly and with serious reservations, encountering all the Heinlein fans in the poly community has definitely been one of the positives. Aquafraternally yours, Al :)
 
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I'm agnostic myself but attended church "religiously" for the 1st 18 years of my life because...parents. The beautiful part, for me, was that we were never pressed to "believe", just attend.

There were parts of church that I loved, the music, the rituals, the candles, being able to sing (in my off-key way) out loud (I love hymns! - especially the old ones). I can't argue that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament don't warm my soul/conscious - be a good person, help your fellow man, don't judge - how are those lessons wrong? I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

But the parts that I was most drawn too, the parts that I felt mattered, were the parts that focused on "service" to our fellow man. Working in the soup kitchen, collecting clothes for the homeless, donating my pumpkin-selling money to Unicef to get poor kids immunized against fatal yet preventable disease. Today? I don't need to attend church to do these things, I do them every day.

I think that a lot of people would like to believe that there is "more" to our existence than our limited lifespan on this planet. So the church's "promises" on that account are reassuring. I'm not convinced that there is actually anything beyond our "now" - so i have to do the best that i can in the time I have. To make the world a better/happier place.

I get what you are saying, but I wasn't asking why people go to church. I meant, specifically, why go to a church whose pastor/priest/minister/reverend/whatever and the congregation would not be accepting of your lifestyle, be it homosexual, poly or whatever. I suppose some of it has to do with geography, accepting churches are few and far between.
 
I get what you are saying, but I wasn't asking why people go to church. I meant, specifically, why go to a church whose pastor/priest/minister/reverend/whatever and the congregation would not be accepting of your lifestyle, be it homosexual, poly or whatever. I suppose some of it has to do with geography, accepting churches are few and far between.

The church that I attended as a child and teenager never felt hostile to me - perhaps because I knew that while a number of member of the congregation would be aghast at my views on sexuality/abortion/evolution/whathaveyou those weren't actually topics that our congregation focused on and I never saw anyone publicly shunned or called out. (Although I may have been oblivious.) "The Church" (United Methodist for the record) may have had official viewpoints on things but I knew plenty of people that held opposing views and were respected members of the congregation.

I remember once when a door-to-door hawker of a "Christian Cookbook", first, assumed that I was agnostic because I had never "heard the word" and then, upon clarification, assumed that that I had been "driven out" by "those kind" of Christians (presumably not "real" Christians like him).

The idea that someone could be familiar with the bible and various doctrines and have fond fellowship memories of church-going could "choose" to "turn away" from religion was seemingly unfathomable.
 
I was raised in the Catholic Church. It doesn't get much more hostile than that...lol. I had to fake my way through it from about the second grade on, until I finally put my foot down in high school.
 
I was raised in the Catholic Church. It doesn't get much more hostile than that...lol

Growing up among the evangelical fundamentalists of the deep south, I was taught that the Catholics weren't "really Christians" - meanwhile, in other parts of the country, the fundamentalists were often viewed by the Catholics as wayward apostates. Interestingly, while they bashed each other's theological differences, the fundamentalists and the Catholics have almost always been on the same page when it came to sexual morality. They really have much more in common than they realize - even to this day. :)
 
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I wrote the original post on this thread around 15 months ago, a few months into granting my wife's request to open our marriage so that she could ethically explore her resurgent feelings for an old college boyfriend. A lot of evolution since then - coming to self identify as poly myself, with a poly partner as well.

In the latest church development - Ben, my wife's boyfriend, was in town for the weekend this past week - and attended church with us. And it all went well, although I did have to tease my wife - as she sat between the two of us - if she could relate to the phrase "nervous as a whore in church". :) Ben, who also self identifies as Christian, (but has not attended since he was a small child) found the pomp and circumstance of the liturgical style service to be quite interesting, and we had a great conversation about it all afterward.

As I wrote in the first post, and elsewhere on the Forum, I have a personal theology that might be viewed as demythologized Platonic-Christian Gnosticism. In that sense, and with a view toward Jesus' teachings on love, kindness, and forgiveness, I do identify as Christian. Becky, my wife, is a recovering Catholic - so we do not really feel a need to attend church, but made the decision to raise our daughter in a progressive, open minded church.

Al
 
I guess it's tangential to the discussion, but this is poignant.

Indeed.

I've been exchanging emails with a trans gal who is considering moving from Wisconsin to Albuquerque, which is just South of me about fifty miles. She wanted information, support, here before she lands here and was reaching out.

Her words indicate fear ... of "being stabbed to death". She also shared with me this morning that lots of guys have been hitting her up for sex, assuming she must be a prostitute, offering her money for sex.

She shared this last bit with me right after I had invited her for coffee if and when she should show up in town. She wanted it to be clear that she was not a sex worker and wasn't looking to "bang".

It's rough out there. Happily, I live in a relative oasis. Folks here in lil ol Santa Fe are affected by the social contagion that we're hinting at here. But the epidemic isn't so in your face as it is in many big cities. You know, the desacralized human, the desacralized life, the cheapening of everything.... Heart-blindness, if you will.
 
And your post makes me feel uneasy. Why would you reduce a loving relationship to a sexual threesome? Yikes!

Even though I am an Atheist, I think it's fantastic that they have a place they can go worship whatever and feel free to be themselves. The way most church people deal with homosexuality makes me sick.

I didn't reduce a "loving relationship" to merely sex, threesomes or otherwise.

Al mentioned he was observing with pleasure the touches between the lesbian V or triad. And he was especially excited to see them because he knew his own wife was getting laid by another guy at that exact moment. So it seemed to be, at least partly, a moment of thinking about actual sex, for him. Polyamorous SEX, not just "love," bleached of desire/lust and physical pleasure.

I guess, as a bisexual woman, it's a bit icky, to know that a straight guy would be observing me with a female partner or partners and imagining me having sex during church. Or be reminded his wife is getting banged at that moment, when he sees me touching my partner non-sexually.

But I'm not into sex shaming. People think about sex all the time. Especially those cursed or gifted with tons of testosterone. You know who you are.

Maybe if I was horny at this very moment I'd be also enjoying Al's voyeuristic thrill. But sometimes when I'm not horny, the thought of sex is icky. Which is weird, because sex and kink are something I really enjoy.
 
Indeed.

I've been exchanging emails with a trans gal who is considering moving from Wisconsin to Albuquerque, which is just South of me about fifty miles. She wanted information, support, here before she lands here and was reaching out.

Her words indicate fear ... of "being stabbed to death". She also shared with me this morning that lots of guys have been hitting her up for sex, assuming she must be a prostitute, offering her money for sex.

She shared this last bit with me right after I had invited her for coffee if and when she should show up in town. She wanted it to be clear that she was not a sex worker and wasn't looking to "bang".

It's rough out there...

What kind of signals is your "transgal" acquaintance putting out, that men are assuming she is a sex worker? Most transwomen I know do not put out a "fuck me now" vibe. Some are shy, some are fierce, some are artists, some are athletes, most are just trying to get through the day like anyone else. Working, buying groceries, taking the damn dog for a walk, doing hobbies, gardening, playing video games, watching TV, moaning about politics.

The same goes for the the transmen and gender non-conforming people I claim as friends or close acquaintances.

Maybe your transwomen acquaintance dresses very sexy and flamboyantly as if she's a drag queen? I don't know how the TV actor Laverne Cox dresses when she's at home, but I see her in fancy wigs and revealing dresses and tons of makeup on media, that to me, send an almost drag queen vibe, not just a transwoman vibe. And drag queens can look pretty whorish, over the top.
 
What kind of signals is your "transgal" acquaintance putting out, that men are assuming she is a sex worker? Most transwomen I know do not put out a "fuck me now" vibe. Some are shy, some are fierce, some are artists, some are athletes, most are just trying to get through the day like anyone else. Working, buying groceries, taking the damn dog for a walk, doing hobbies, gardening, playing video games, watching TV, moaning about politics.

I don't know her well at all. We exchanged a very few emails. That's it. But I do know that she's currently not in a financial position to by groceries, walk the dog, do hobbies, garden, play video games, watch tv.... She's homeless and drifting and scared. Maybe some men see her, therefore, as something cheap they can buy. :(
 
People think about sex all the time. Especially those cursed or gifted with tons of testosterone. You know who you are.

LOL

I'm 52, almost 53. Things are ... shifting. I used to be a bit of a sex junky, though a discerning one. Now I'm just a love and touch junky. I can get a lot of yummy from non-sexual cuddling, massage exchange, stuff like that.
 
I didn't reduce a "loving relationship" to merely sex, threesomes or otherwise.

Al mentioned he was observing with pleasure the touches between the lesbian V or triad. And he was especially excited to see them because he knew his own wife was getting laid by another guy at that exact moment. So it seemed to be, at least partly, a moment of thinking about actual sex, for him. Polyamorous SEX, not just "love," bleached of desire/lust and physical pleasure.

I guess, as a bisexual woman, it's a bit icky, to know that a straight guy would be observing me with a female partner or partners and imagining me having sex during church. Or be reminded his wife is getting banged at that moment, when he sees me touching my partner non-sexually.

But I'm not into sex shaming. People think about sex all the time. Especially those cursed or gifted with tons of testosterone. You know who you are.

Maybe if I was horny at this very moment I'd be also enjoying Al's voyeuristic thrill. But sometimes when I'm not horny, the thought of sex is icky. Which is weird, because sex and kink are something I really enjoy.

My comment wasn't directed at you.

I saw it as objectification. I'm not looking to crucify anyone over it.
 
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