Metamouring-well, passive communication and more

BathedInSalt

New member
I'm gonna reveal some not so great things I've discovered about myself in this post, but I'm trying to change my perspective I promise.

My first relationship/friendship/metamour-ship didn't go so well. It went so not well that it contributed to Dean breaking up with Mary. There were several other reasons for the breakup, but I played a part. For my responsibility in that situation I feel eternally guilty. I wanted to do better, I wanted to give Dean what he's given me, what he continues to give me. I've done a pretty good job figuring out my role in that, getting to the bottom of my feelings about Dean dating and separating them from how I felt about Mary in particular.

Dean, however doesn't have much confidence, possibly no confidence in my ability to accept him dating. That's problematic for so many reasons. I do think I can do better. I'm not even the same person as I was when this first started. There's no way I could be worse at it after all the work I've done staring into the ugly feelings, gaining new perspective.

OK so that happened.

Now I've identified that I do have the habit of reading into what people say, especially women. I like to think that I don't speak this way (passive communication) I'm generally unafraid to ask for my wants/needs frankly, not afraid to be denied them- but that's probably because I usually am not denied
them. I could pick that apart too. I realize it makes me sound spoiled, but I don't think I handle being denied poorly so there's that.

I know I grew up in a house where passive communication was the only way we all communicated.

What I want to learn now is how to just take people's word at face value. It's really hard and I get all anxious and worked up wondering what she "really meant".

It's also bothering me that I only think this about women. That's so messed up.
I don't agonize over texts from men wondering what else he meant by what he said, but I sure do that with women. I would like to stop.

Any ideas?

Specifically I'm now talking to Sir's partner Grace. She reached out on social media, we've texted a bit now, but instead of "getting to know you" stuff it went straight to clearing up scheduling miscommunications. This is our first introduction. I'm not feeling good about it.

I'm feeling anxious. Worried. Like every time we talk is an opportunity for me to fuck things up. I know I'm bringing my first experience into this one. I gotta treat this like it's own thing.

So, here's the other thing I find happening. My first reactions to Grace's texts are defensive. That's gotta be fear based right? Like I'm afraid I'll mess up, she'll "win" and I'll lose my relationship with Sir. Also though I find myself trying to assert myself to her. It's not a competition for Allan's time, why is that my default thought process.? Why do I need to feel powerful in this? I mean, I need to feel heard and have my needs met too and all...

for example Grace asked if Sir and I had a shared calendar, said that it was a must have for this kind of thing. In my head I was all "don't tell me what to do!", even though the calendar is a good idea and I did wind up making one. While I was making it I was combatting this stubborn part of me that didn't want to do it just because she suggested it. In this scenario it only really matters what I do, what I say, not the mess that's going on in my head, but I need to change the dialogue that's in my head, right?

As I was making the calendar I was thinking "ok I'll let her have this one" like I'm not going to make a big deal about how " I don't need a calendar" "I do things differently than you".

At the end of the day it's a good idea and it will help things go smoother for all of us. I texted her back saying that I did make one, that it was a good idea and that anything to help things go well with all of us was a good thing. All of which I think is true, but I also thought that letting her know would be nice so she can feel glad that I did something she suggested. I have no idea that she thought that. I'm reading into everything. I have to stop.

I'm seeing a default pattern of feeling that my metamours are somehow working against me, that I have to assert myself, have this power play. I have a suspicion where this comes from (monogamous upbringing) and also because my history with partners previous to Dean has been difficult. I was at least cheated on in each relationship and in some treated abusively. That's a whole other layer I'm trying to heal.

I want my actions to be more purely driven. Maybe it just takes practice?

I'm open to any advice and further questions to help clarify the situation.
 
Hi BIS,

This'll be an odd question, but have you and Grace spent much time with each other one-on-one? Maybe part of the problem is the "air of mystery" surrounding the metamour. We tend to fear the unknown. Maybe the two of you could spend some time together and build a friendship. Just shopping or whatever, something light and fun. If it's a dumb idea just ignore it, but I thought it was something that might help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
It's definitely a process and you're new to this so don't beat yourself up over the mistakes you've made or the things you are thinking! Self-compassion works so much better than self-flaggelation. I find that I'm more compassionate towards others when I'm compassionate toward myself.

As for changing our thought patterns, same thing. I find it easier if I don't judge myself for the things that pop in my head (just as I don't judge myself for the emotions I'm experiencing.) It makes it easier to discard the thought if I'm not attaching to it by judging myself for having it. Thoughts, like feelings, aren't facts and don't always correlate to our beliefs.

Aside from that, clearing my mind through mediation or yoga helps keep me centered. When I'm centered, my mind is less likely to spin out of control and I'm less likely to obsess over what other people think or feel. I see a therapist, too.

It's like learning to play a piano. It takes practice. You wouldn't expect to play a complicated piece so soon after starting lessons......
 
Hi BIS,

This'll be an odd question, but have you and Grace spent much time with each other one-on-one? Maybe part of the problem is the "air of mystery" surrounding the metamour. We tend to fear the unknown. Maybe the two of you could spend some time together and build a friendship. Just shopping or whatever, something light and fun. If it's a dumb idea just ignore it, but I thought it was something that might help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.


We haven't spent any time together at all. I have found that I prefer the way I met Mary, at a no pressure no one was even dating at the time beach hang, but I would never require such a meeting out of a metamour.

With Grace, from the beginning she needed more space and time before making an effort to get to know me. She wanted to make sure I was going to be around before putting in the effort. On paper that sounds reasonable, but it did confuse me since Sir doesn't have a pattern of having short lived relationships. He's not parading parters in and out of his life. None of that is my stuff to dissect though. I just took it at face value and went at it with a very relaxed attitude of "we'll meet when we do" or maybe we won't.

I'm still figuring out what poly looks like for me and I think it will change depending upon each partner and their partners. So I'm going with the flow, especially of an established relationship like theirs.
 
It's definitely a process and you're new to this so don't beat yourself up over the mistakes you've made or the things you are thinking! Self-compassion works so much better than self-flaggelation. I find that I'm more compassionate towards others when I'm compassionate toward myself.

Thank you for that. As I was typing up my original post I was thinking I need to practice some kindness. Even though I was doing a great deal of judging myself for my thoughts, there is an air of compassion I think. I hope so! I'm going to practice discarding thoughts that don't align with my beliefs. They are easy to spot. I get stuck at waiting to know the "why" behind everything.

I practice meditation and use tools to handle my anxiety. I had actually de-escaated my anxiety pretty well throughout the day yesterday. I also see a therapist, on and off since I was 16.


It's like learning to play a piano. It takes practice. You wouldn't expect to play a complicated piece so soon after starting lessons......
I'm gonna remember this analogy, it suits me very well.

Thanks for taking time to read my post and respond. I know I needed a sounding board to make sure I wasn't completely off track. I can always count on this community to tell me if I'm making sense or not.
 
... What I want to learn now is how to just take people's word at face value. It's really hard and I get all anxious and worked up wondering what she "really meant" ... QUOTE]

Here's something that really helps with that: It's called Direct Communication and Reflective Listening. I touch on it briefly here in the PolyNatural site, but you can find out more about it by searching online or in books about communication. I'd suggest that you start by practicing Reflective listening first, and then if it seems opportune, introduce whoever you're trying to improve your communication with to how it works.
 
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Disclaimer: My reply may seem tangential, but sharing anyway, because I think it might help.

Second disclaimer: I could be completely wrong.

There were several other reasons for the breakup, but I played a part. For my responsibility in that situation I feel eternally guilty. I wanted to do better, I wanted to give Dean what he's given me, what he continues to give me.

You had an expectation from yourself in that scenario that wasn't met. Possibly some ideal poly partner behavior that you should have gracefully exceuted, but you turned out to be human. So you are making it very clear that you are giving yourself low marks for that. What would have been more useful was to describe what you did in that situation that you wish you did differently rather than blaming and judging yourself. Gives you an actionable to watch out for and do differently if opportunity presents.

Dean, however doesn't have much confidence, possibly no confidence in my ability to accept him dating. That's problematic for so many reasons. I do think I can do better. I'm not even the same person as I was when this first started. There's no way I could be worse at it after all the work I've done staring into the ugly feelings, gaining new perspective.

This is not all that different from the previous quote, except you are at a place where you want a second shot at doing it right instead of the guilt you face. Dean hasn't got there yet. You have to accept that he will do relationships based on what he perceives can pull off, based on his current situation of which you are a part. He cannot get into relationships so you can have a do over.

Now I've identified that I do have the habit of reading into what people say, especially women.

I interpret this as you are insecure/worried about how you are received by others, so you are keeping an eye on responses and analyzing them. The gender thing I will address at the end - or maybe another time.

I like to think that I don't speak this way (passive communication)

+

I'm generally unafraid to ask for my wants/needs frankly, not afraid to be denied them

+

but that's probably because I usually am not denied them.

Is it possible that because you are so wary about responses you get, you believe you are generally unafraid to ask for your wants/needs, but actually end up asking those that won't get denied, and adapt to those unlikely to be accepted so smoothly, they are part of your perception of "conditions" of the situation, rather than something not satisfactory that should be a want/need?

I want to learn now is how to just take people's word at face value. It's really hard and I get all anxious and worked up wondering what she "really meant".

You won't, while her opinion means so much to you. The stakes are too high. Once, when I was facilitating a group, a distressed woman confronted a man who was trying to calm her saying "I'm not judging you..." by yelling back "I WANT you to judge me. I want you to judge me GOOD". The opinion of someone having high stakes in your mind will always have you anxious that it goes well and tiptoeing to not make it go badly and ...... the works. The anxiety is that something you need for your well being may get rejected or not matter.

To address this, you have to step back a bit. Why do you need a favorable opinion here? Is this necessary for your well being or is this a need to please people? Re you or are you not good enough without their certification? Working through that will set you free - and not in predictable ways. I knew someone who worked through things only to decide that she is unhappy if thought badly of, so made a list of people who really mattered whom she'd consciously try to please to improve her chances of approval, while dismissing the rest. I personally went through a journey that told me that I was "perfectly" myself, no matter what and if someone didn't like it, it was their headache.

But usually in practical life, it is something of a compromise. Pissing people off gets inconvenient and time consuming, so you compromise on the smaller things with touchy people, hold your ground where it matters, etc. What I am saying here is that you have a choice to be okay with her response, whatever it is on things that matter to you - even if she doesn't respond how you want.

It's also bothering me that I only think this about women. That's so messed up.
I don't agonize over texts from men wondering what else he meant by what he said, but I sure do that with women. I would like to stop.

Could be many things, including the most common because of conditioning. Women can be raised to express love/respect to men by not challenging them. So you may not agonize because you already accept them as right, regardless of what you think - willingly. Or it could be that your anxieties are more relevant to the presence of other women. Territorial or something else - which may not be triggered by men. Could be anything. You'll need to see the next time you get anxious and compare it with what a man would do that would not be a problem and take it from there. See what the difference is. Perhaps it may be individual to individual, but the sample size of messages that make you anxious is so small, that the ones that trigger you just happen to be women. Who knows, till you investigate?

Not replying to the rest, because it is along similar lines, and this is plenty food for thought if relevant, and no point spamming if not.

*hug*
 
... What I want to learn now is how to just take people's word at face value. It's really hard and I get all anxious and worked up wondering what she "really meant" ... QUOTE]

Here's something that really helps with that: It's called Direct Communication and Reflective Listening. I touch on it briefly here in the PolyNatural site, but you can find out more about it by searching online or in books about communication. I'd suggest that you start by practicing Reflective listening first, and then if it seems opportune, introduce whoever you're trying to improve your communication with to how it works.


Thank you, I have read a little about the concepts in the article.
I'm all about finding resources.
 
So, just so you know— I’m pretty mild-mannered, but I would definately bristle in being told that I needed to have a joint calendar. And I suspect it is perfectly okay to asset “you canmt tell me what o do.”

The middle ground is to assert- “we haven’r done it that way. It hasn’r felt Right or been a necessity (aka, it isn’t a must. We have a right to do it our way). After thinking about it, I think it’s a is idea, and have started one.

That’s a combination of “whoah, you cannot boss me” and “nevertheless,’I will be the bigger person and open to your ideas.”
 
I have a question.

for example Grace asked if Sir and I had a shared calendar, said that it was a must have for this kind of thing. In my head I was all "don't tell me what to do!", even though the calendar is a good idea and I did wind up making one.


She asked a question "Is there a calendar?"

And stated her opinion. "They are an important must have (to me)" Even if she didn't say the complete thought.

I think you could have said

  • "Nope. No calendar right now" (which was true then)
  • And ask a clarifying question and state your willingness. "It seems important to you. Would you like one? If so, I'm up for it. I don't know if Sir is. We could ask him."

Why did you "leap up to serve?" I mean, it was her idea, sure. But there's 3 people here. You, Grace or Sir could have made it. It didn't have to automatically be your job.

Instead it sounds like you leaped into make it so while struggling with "you are not the boss of me" stuff.

Is that how it was in your family of origin?

X person (maybe mom or aunt or grandma female relative person?) would make "announcements" expecting everyone else to mind reader that it was really an order and they should all leap up to serve? :confused:

If so... that may be why you "scan for secret messages between the lines" with women. And are on guard. Or leap to serve even when not actually asked in an attempt to ward off a blow up or being in the doghouse or whatever it is would happen. But be secretly resentful. And now it's being carried over into other relationships.

Could something like that be happening here? :confused:

Galagirl
 
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Why did you "leap up to serve?" I mean, it was her idea, sure. But there's 3 people here. You, Grace or Sir could have made it. It didn't have to automatically be your job.

The calendar created is just shared between Sir and I. Yes, he could've made it.
Why did I leap to serve?

Is that how it was in your family of origin?

Yes, I was raised Christian. Praised for being a peacemaker, meek, having a servants heart, putting myself last, being a quiet good little girl. Until a few months ago I believed that the instinct to "fix" was part of my personality, that I was just born this way. With the help of this forum I realized that that instinct was learned from life with my mom. I just learned it very young.


X person (maybe mom or aunt or grandma female relative person?) would make "announcements" expecting everyone else to mind reader that it was really an order and they should all leap up to serve?


That would be my mom, it was all our jobs to make sure mom was kept happy.
I learned to anticipate needs then and have literally done that in all my jobs and relationships. I'm good at it, damn good.

I catch myself feeling resentful on occasion, but it's not something I hold onto.

I like serving others.

I'm really torn about this line of thinking.

I'm not a doormat, but I'm pretty easy going which can look the same on the outside.

If I can be helpful I will be, I like to be useful to others.

Perhaps I need to be more choosy about who benefits from it?

I'm gonna think about this stuff, I have more questions for myself than answers.
 
You know,’i rTely disagree with Galagirl, but I will here.
She didn’t state it was important; she stated it was a “must have”. In other words- indicated a lack of flexibility in how poly “should” be done. And also a willingness to dictate what and how people should do in their own relationship. A lot of ones, standing up and creating the culture you want- responsive but not a pushover,
Or whatever variation- is really good. But honestly, I would meet at this point because there are starting to be bad feelings and it helps. She doesn’r Have to, buy if you need to- recognize that, and son’t Feel bad advocating for it.
Shou

To the OP, I resonate with your like to be helpful words, and the best balance I have found is to be generous and kind an describe compassionate and giving- AND apply that standard to how I’m treated, too.

I ask to be treated well. I value how I am treated as much as I treat others. It’s as much a dealbreaker if someone allows their partner to influence them to treat me badly,’or treats me badly, as it would be abhorrent to me to treat someone badly or ask them to treat someone else badly.

And that can be applied more subtly, as in being considerate; respecting autonomy, etc. .
 
she stated it was a “must have”. In other words- indicated a lack of flexibility in how poly “should” be done. And also a willingness to dictate what and how people should do in their own relationship

I agree that Grace seems inflexible.

I was coming at it more like... Grace might talk like it's a world known fact but really? That is just Grace's opinion that a shared calendar is a "must have." Everything that is a "must have" to Grace doesn't have to be important or a "must have" to everyone else.

If the goal is for BathedinSalt to not read between the lines when she listens to women talking, she has to be able to remember to let what people say be about them.

My suggestions is that if BathedinSalt is gonna read between the lines and adding extra to the message, try adding the words "to me."

Because if Grace goes "That's a must have (to me)" then BathedinSalt may be better able to let it go.

Like "Alright. To YOU. But I'm me over here and you stuff doesn't automatically have to be me stuff" and be a bit more able to detach from it.

Then she can not take on board what is not hers to take on board.

BathedinSalt, I wonder if you tack on something negative. Maybe something like "That's a must have (you dummy.)" which sets off some other stuff inside you like self triggering?

Best to not add ANYTHING, but if you have to "stair step away" from the habit of reading between the lines and tacking things on to it that are not there.... could add (to me) instead so you can not self trigger.

I like serving others.
If I can be helpful I will be, I like to be useful to others.

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

But if you end up feeling resentful after jumping in to do acts of service unasked... maybe slow down some and work on not doing that behavior any more. Wait til someone makes an actual request of you. Or offer to help (if you truly want to help.)

But no longer just "leap to serve" on autopilot as you did in your family of origin.

Then if you want help you can do so joyfully. And if you don't want to do it because you have no time or interest or whatever? Just be ok not doing it.

That would be my mom, it was all our jobs to make sure mom was kept happy.

Why was it all your jobs to do that? What's so horrible about Mom experiencing the full range of human emotion?

Or in this scenario, what would have been horrible about telling Grace "No, we don't have one at this time" and just letting it be?

Galagirl
 
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