tough situation

rocky

New member
Hi all, I'm new here, but I'm not new to non-monogamous relationships. However, I never sustained a non-monogamous relationship for more than a couple months, and I usually end up in monogamous relationships for the long term.

I've been with my current girlfriend for over 3 years now. When we first met, I wanted a non-monogamous thing for a couple months. Sex was amazing with her, it was perfect and exciting. We moved in, became monogamous, and she basically stopped being passionate about sex, and put me in the "family" box.

In general, she feels guilt enjoying sex, and believes that good sex is supposed to be with people she doesn't really know. I'm a passionate and gentle lover, but she feels sex is degrading and that her companion shouldn't do it to her.

FIRST KEY POINT: She tells me that she senses my insecurity in sex, and she doesn't find that sexy

So recently after a monogamous year, she wants to open up the relationship by seeing other people. I agreed without much of a choice, and I feel it would help build myself up. I figure that if it forces me to build my insecurities, she'll want me again the way I want her to, sexually.

She went out, got drunk, and had a threesome with two guys in my bed, while I'm away taking care of my mom who just went through heart surgery (I know, quite a bad chick right? Kinda love this about her) Of course it has been stressful for me dealing with the new change in our relationship. The emotions are all mixed up, intense, scary, and it has been hard to deal with it.

I'm a naturally jealous, possessive, and insecure guy when it comes to sex and intimate relationships. On the other hand, she's secretive, and scared of sharing details. I think it is because she feels guilty, and insecure that I would leave her.

These are the (2) problems I need help with:

1) I need to be informed of everything she's doing.

But she's being secretive. When I express my concerns about her hiding things, she calls me out on being insecure and tells me it isn't sexy. I feel hurt and like she isn't respecting our relationship, or my feellings. But she claims it is for my own good, to build up myself so she finds me more attractive.

2) We agreed to a set of rules: condoms for every act, no spending lots of money on the partner, telling each other when another partner is in the mix, telling the new partner about our open relationship, no mutual friends.

But she broke many of the rules so quickly. She hooked up with a mutual friend (and his friend), didn't tell me for a week, and most significantly, HAD SEX WITHOUT CONDOMS.

The overarching issue is I am trying to maintain some control in the relationship. I want her to respect the rules, but she is just doing whatever she wants it seems, under the umbrella of "it will fix your insecurities". When I express my concerns (in an insecure way she claims) I get yelled at and I further feel helpless. I feel like I'm sacrificing, but she isn't.
 
Instead of highlighting each of telling your comments, I'll just say that this relationship has CODEPENDENT written all over it. Both of you. Big time. How familiar are you with understanding codependent relationships?
 
I'm sorry you struggle.

But she broke many of the rules so quickly. She hooked up with a mutual friend (and his friend), didn't tell me for a week, and most significantly, HAD SEX WITHOUT CONDOMS.

So... how many times do agreements have to be broken before you walk away from this person? Do you know the number? What is your limit of tolerance? Have you articulated that to yourself?

The overarching issue is I am trying to maintain some control in the relationship. I want her to respect the rules, but she is just doing whatever she wants it seems, under the umbrella of "it will fix your insecurities".

I would say this situation is not stable. She makes agreements she does not keep. You cannot trust her to keep her word. So of course you don't feel safe in this situation. Who would?

It's not her job to fix your insecurities. That's your job -- if you have insecurities from within. What you list in your post seem to be grievances with her poor behavior. That's not being insecure. That's being annoyed you are getting dinged.

It's her job to behave in a way that doesn't ding other people if she wants to get along with them. To me it sounds like she doesn't care to modify her behavior so it doesn't ding you. You are just supposed to lump it. Which isn't fair to you or esp kind on her part.

When I express my concerns (in an insecure way she claims) I get yelled at and I further feel helpless. I feel like I'm sacrificing, but she isn't.

Well... why sacrifice anything at all? Esp for little or no return? :confused:

You seem to be compromising yourself and what your core values (agreements being kept, people keeping their word, safer sex practices, etc) to stay in this relationship with her. As well as receiving a rain verbal abuse whenever you call her into account or try to resolve grievances.

She doesn't own it and take personal responsibility when her behavior dings people. Instead it sounds like she flips it around on you and calls you names like "insecure" to make you stop talking or makes it be your fault so she's off the hook and nobody is examining her behavior much.

None of that is fun or healthy sounding. None of that makes for a stable situation.

So again... how many times on this merry-go-round before you decide to walk way and not go for another ride?

Otherwise it's like "same old song, different day" and the one keeping you there is you. :(

Rather than seek to control the relationship or her behavior so it stops dinging you? You could exercise control over your "stayingness" and choose walk away from this relationship so it stops dinging you.

Galagirl
 
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Couldn't grievances just be caused by insecurity? If what we are doing is an open relationship, shouldn't i just let her do what makes her happy and not worry about the rules.

My sexual health is my responsibility and I can wrap it up if I want to.

Sometimes I think she's right. I'm upset because I feel like I own her and I don't want to share her, breaking the whole point of the open relationship.

I'm still overseas taking care of my mom, and I don't want to make any decisions right now. She claims to be hanging out with her new partner simply because she's bored, and that when I get back he will simply dissappear.

I'm going to start dating again, maybe she'll treat me differently when she sees I have my own thing going on. As of now she knows I'm trapped taking care of my mom in a foreign country.
 
Angelina/Karen is right, in my opinion. ^

This sounds like an unhealthy, toxic relationship dynamic in both an emotional AND a literal sense.

If you KNOW you cannot trust your partner to stick to agreements - especially where it concerns safe sex - you're already on extremely shaky ground. This leaves you in a physically unsafe position in terms of contracting and spreading diseases. That in itself would be a deal-breaker for me.

Not to mention, your gf's impulsiveness and blasé attitude towards transparent communication (i.e. choosing to keep you in the dark about her sometimes risky and underhanded behaviour until after the fact -VS- an honest up-front communication style) shows a marked lack of respect for the openness and trust you're putting in her, and for your stated boundaries and relationship agreements.

This "iffy" situation did not come about solely due to your girlfriend's actions and choices, however. As another poster said, there is a distinct air of co-dependency here.

Also, I did note that you seem in two minds about your girlfriend's stereotypical "bad girl" behaviour - simultaneously excited and fearful - and wonder if on some level, you actually want to be dominated or humiliated by a stronger, wilder personality (suppressed sub tendencies or cuckold fetish?) Probably not the case, but something to contemplate.

Your gf does appear to be taking advantage of your trust and good nature (acting out in this manner while you're out of the country dealing with an emotionally stressful family situation, being one example)... and seems to be laying all the "blame" at YOUR feet for her own feelings of restlessness, dissatisfaction and boredom within the relationship.

Perhaps she has never learned what it means to grow into a deeper more mature love after the first flush of NRE wears off, and therefore feels like she needs to seek that adrenaline rush and novelty in new lovers sooner than most (NRE junkie)? Perhaps she is one of those personalities who thrive on stressful, drama-filled situations (thrill seeker/drama queen)? Or perhaps she takes an almost sadistic delight in taunting you by describing her latest conquests.

OR, conversely - and more likely from your description of her words and behaviour - she can only get off or feel true passion and excitement with a lover when sex is forbidden, secretive or "degrading" (for her), which may mean she has a desire, whether suppressed or overt, for some element of kink that is not finding expression within your relationship.

The worrying aspect is that SHE is placing the blame for her own sexual issues and inadequacies solely at your feet, and YOU are buying into that; allowing her to get away with overriding or changing up agreements without discussion.

Only you can decide how you want to deal with this, and if you believe the relationship is worth saving, even after several betrayals. If I were you, I'd tell her in no uncertain terms to hold off on sharing sex with others - at least until you're back in the country and your mind is not preoccupied with worries about your family issues. Then, if you decide to forge ahead, seek the counsel of a recommended, poly-friendly therapist.
 
Hello rocky,

The telling issue here for me is that your girlfriend is breaking rules that *she agreed to keep.* Thus bait and switch: She promised to you one set of behaviors, then delivered another set of behaviors. She lied to you.

It's outrageous for her to claim that she does what she does in order to fix your "insecurities." She does what she does for her own personal gratification, not out of any desire to help you. Don't believe her, she is not honest.

You love her, you want to stay with her. But she is not acting in a loving manner toward you. She does not have your best interests at heart. You're going to have to take care of yourself here, you're on your own.

These are my perceptions, based on your descriptions. I hope you are able to work things out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Couldn't grievances just be caused by insecurity? If what we are doing is an open relationship, shouldn't i just let her do what makes her happy and not worry about the rules.

Not if what makes her happy hurts YOU.

If she's just gonna do whatever she wants, why does she bother to make agreements that she later breaks? Does that behavior make her happy? But then that behavior ends up hurting you?

It would be more straightforward (and kinder) to say "No, thank you. I don't agree to do those things. I am not going to communicate ahead of time when I go out with other people. I am not going to use condoms every time. I plan to do as I please in the moment.

You are welcome to be in my network under those conditions. Or you can choose not to be because those conditions are too loose for you. Your consent belongs to you -- so the choice to participate here with me or not is yours."

That would be honest, and straight up.

And if you choose to go there, you go informed. You are not being hurt because you go in knowing what to expect and you get what you expected. A very loose thing.

The way she does it? She promises you one kind of thing but then breaks agreements and does another kind of thing. How does this behavior help create a stable, secure environment? Or is it more like... you don't feel safe or secure because you never know what to believe with her?

If she makes agreements/promises she does not intend to honor or keep? That is a kind of lying. And it is provoking behavior. Of course you would have a grievance after being tricked like that. You were promised one thing and got another. It is bait and switch.

When she later calls you insecure while ignoring that she has been doing the provoking behavior in the first place? She's blame shifting.

That's adding insult to grief -- not only does she break her promise, she calls you names if you say something about her breaking her promises like you are raining on her parade.

What kind of business is that? None of that sounds like loving behavior to me. It doesn't seem like fair and just treatment of you.

And you being upset is not caused by you being insecure. It's caused by her not keeping her word and doing provoking behavior.

She could just keep her word... and then she is not breaking agreements.

Or she could NOT make any agreements in the first place... and then she is not breaking agreements that way.

Right now she lies... she promises to keep agreements and then breaks them. When you go "hey, what's up with that?" she calls you names like you are insecure or rains verbal abuse.

How is this a healthy, loving relationship like that? :confused:

I'm going to start dating again, maybe she'll treat me differently when she sees I have my own thing going on.

Maybe you will see that other dating partners CAN keep their agreements, CAN treat you well, and are less of a pain to deal with. So you become more willing to let this troublesome dating partner go.

You have inherent worth, dignity, and value. You deserve to be treated well and deserve to be in HEALTHY relationships.

I would not stick with a dating partner that makes agreements with no intention of keeping them. That's not you being insecure. That's them being deceptive/lying.

Galagirl
 
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Hi all, I'm new here, ... I want her to respect the rules, but she is just doing whatever she wants it seems, under the umbrella of "it will fix your insecurities". When I express my concerns (in an insecure way she claims) I get yelled at and I further feel helpless. I feel like I'm sacrificing, but she isn't.

Okay, I pretty much agree with the rest of the sentiment and advice expressed here and if I was in your position I'd be doing research on how to get out as quickly and cleanly and inexpensively as possible. Then the rules will only apply to you, she can go and do whatever the Hell she wants, so can you, and you don't have to deal with being yelled at. But that's just me. Maybe you could consider some relationship counselling?
 
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I'm not a big fan of therapy, so when I say someone needs therapy I don't say it lightly. You both need some therapy. Her probably more so than you.

Why wouldn't you be insecure about sex? She thinks sex is degrading. If you have sex with her it feels like you are degrading her. Whew! That would be fine if that was both of yours kink or something, but what a thing to have to deal with in a vanilla relationship.

I started out wanting a bunch of rules but that didn't work out. My reasons had nothing to do with an ownership mentality. It turned out my reasons were right, but they didn't actually have anything to do with us.

It all comes down to a matter of trust. Do you trust her? If not, then there is no real reason to be together.
 
If an individual doesn't want to deal with a certain type of situation, then the responsible action sequence is something like
  • know it (be self-aware)
  • own it (no deflection or projection)
  • communicate it
  • support it (don't wimp out on it)
  • revisit it (see whether it changes with time or circumstance)
Steps like that make boundaries a proper component of polyamory.

To fit into poly, nobody has to like any given boundary, not even its owner.

Beating yourself up for a boundary is certainly straying AWAY from polyamory.

(And IMNSHO: treating sex as a distasteful necessity -- merely "an itch to be scratched" but always in some risky manner, as your "partner" is doing -- is NOT emotionally healthy. What next? Strolling the dark corners of the city park after midnight looking to get gang-banged by passers-by? Sounds a LOT like she's seeking punishment.)
 
Yes I'm familiar with codependency. I know I'm codependent, but how is she codependent?

Emotionally healthy people never get involved with actively codependent people. There is just no attraction or place to hook into. Codependence always happens in emotional tandem. For codependence even to be happening, both people have to participate. An emotionally healthy person would have no attraction at all to this situation. That's a very important recovery koan for you to know and to understand when working on your issues. Your issues are only yours to work on and you can move mountains in a relationship by focusing on only your side of things, but the other person is just as internally distressed as you are when codependence is active. You never have to get the other person to change in order to experience a better life for yourself, but you do have to be aware that your partner has issues that are just as deeply rooted as yours. Also know that it's the nature of a codependent system to have one person as the "problem" or the scape goat. One child in the family or one partner in the couple will take the role of the messed up one, taking all of the blame for the turmoil. In fact, everyone fully participates and keeps the cycles active.
 
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To me (and forgive me I didnt read many of the comments) it sounds like she's using your possible insecurities to her advantage instead of helping you work on them. Almost seems like a bit of a cuckold relationship - is that something you want?

You need someone who's going to support you and most importantly respect you by respecting the rules and boundaries you have placed on the relationship.

The whole not using protection thing is a huge no-no if that is one of your main rules. I know I would freak out if I found out my partner wasn't using condoms and we had agreed upon that.
 
Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I read them all twice carefully.

I am back home and of course there have been developments.

She admitted it was wrong not to use condoms and promised to continue safely. I feel like she has been making effort to show me that I'm the main guy in her life. Of course, her NRE with her new partner makes me anxious.

The problem in the relationship has boiled down to this. I need her to be transparent because I'm anxious and a naturally controlling guy.

When she tells me details I blow it up into "a monster" and she further withdraws. For example I was expressing how upset I am about how this new guy was basically living in my apartment while I was gone. She said "see this is why I don't tell you things. It does you no good and you just freak out". Then I get further insecure and upset, feeling left out and emotionally abandoned that instead of showing me empathy, she uses logic and reason to prove why she needs to withhold information. It's a cycle that is bringing me to severe anguish. Last night I was in physical pain from this situation.

One of your comments has opened my eyes to something important. She is insecure and is not able to handle her partner being upset with her. She probably has guilt issues with sex. This is why she can't handle me being upset or why she isn't sexualy intimate with me. I was placed me in the "companion" box which is not kinky enough for her. I'm a kind and emotional lover, so this outcome makes sense.

Half the time I would say things are fine, and I'm feeling confident. But the other half of the time I am needing her to make me feel like she understands my hurt. As mentioned she further withdraws when she sees me upset.

My plan is to just work on myself despite my expectations of her. I'm going to not care about her, take my heart back, see other people. It seems she is just as codependent or messed up as I am, and I need to be aware of that moving forward because my expectations are constantly shattered.
 
Hi rocky,

Thanks for that update. It sounds like your girlfriend has issues that she isn't willing to work on. You seem to be more willing to work on your own issues. At the moment, I am thinking that the two of you are incompatible, but maybe that can change through the work you do on your issues. To help you do that, you might want to go see a therapist.

If you're going to stay with her, you're going to need to become emotionally independent. You can't hope/expect that she'll understand your hurt because she can't and doesn't want to. You are on your own in this area. Trying to convince her otherwise is just making her angry. She's using it as "proof" that she can't share information with you.

On the other hand, what about this need for information (from her)? Can you let that go? I'm thinking it would please her if you could. And maybe it would solve some problems at closer to their source. It's up to you, you decide what you want to work on. Just keep in mind that you will be the one doing the work, not her. You have to decide if you can live with that.

With regards,
Kevin T.
 
.. I'm anxious and a naturally controlling guy.

...My plan is to just work on myself despite my expectations of her. I'm going to not care about her, take my heart back, see other people.

You're not "naturally controlling," you learned this as a coping mechanism - the best you can do for now, but it's highly inefficient and ineffective. You can learn to not be controlling, but it takes a lot of conscious effort. Controlling is just a way you've developed in an effort to deal with insecurity and massive fear, it's not "natural."

What is your plan to work on yourself?
You cannot not care about her. You can't decide to take your heart back. That's just a lie to yourself in attempts to not feel pain due to insecurity and those attempts won't work. Better that you focus on developing actual security.
I highly recommend that you do not drag more people into this at this time. You have a lot of work to do on yourself and anyone you attract right now is going to reflect your issues, just as she does. Jumping into "seeing other people" in an attempt to "take your heart back" will be a morass of drama and more pain.

What is your plan to work on yourself?
 
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I'm a naturally jealous, possessive, and insecure guy
Of course you are. You just said it: that's a really common baseline in Western culture, a definition of "natural."

If you want to stay that way, you have every right, though it makes you inflexible & unable to grow emotionally.

If you want to change, you need to stop locking yourself back in that box every time the door creaks open a little; rather than saying "I am" instead work at "I feel as though" (address the behaviors &/or feelings) or "I think others see me as" (address the image you project).

I'm going to not care about her, take my heart back, see other people. ... I need to be aware
To concentrate on not-caring about someone is still allowing them to control your life. The only difference is that instead of you trying to "sail alongside" her, you get obsessed with tacking away from her.

The only way to truly break free from control by another is to... well, break free from that control.

I imagine that many people could learn to steer their own course without being pulled OR pushed by the whims of a spouse or house-mate. However, this takes practice & experience. I've had to do it a few times in my life, & it took a couple of rocky episodes with my first girlfriend to gain some ability, but I was eventually able to stand firm when I knew I was right.

Until those skills are developed, severing the control means ending (or at least radically redefining) the relationship.

You need to prepare to leave, or you're not going to take yourself (your needs, your feelings) seriously, & she's not likely to either, so all that not-caring would be wasted anyway. No big displays, no threats to leave.
________________

I reached such a point with my second longterm relationship.

The upshot is that one day I knew I couldn't take it anymore, & I was doing all the work to get little benefit (seemingly less daily).

I calmly said, "You should move in with JR" -- her other boyfriend, barely employed & living free in his buddy's spare bedroom -- "because you're over there so much that you're about to be expelled AND lose your job. You're asleep when I leave in the morning & asleep when I get home at night. I even have to go to the grocery for us. If you don't want me to be happy with you, I can be happier without you. I love you, & I want to stay involved with you, but living together is not working at all."

She was shocked (not what I intended, & I actually felt bad about that but trusted myself enough to stick with it) & cried a little, then we sat down & reneogitaed a whole lot of stuff.

We were together 11 more years, & became a sort of "power dyad" in our community.
 
When she tells me details I blow it up into "a monster" and she further withdraws. For example I was expressing how upset I am about how this new guy was basically living in my apartment while I was gone. She said "see this is why I don't tell you things. It does you no good and you just freak out".

How about she just not move people in to your flat without your consent? Not do the annoying behavior in the first place? :confused:

This is what I was saying before... you have a grievance with her behavior. And instead of owning it like "You are right. I should not let other people use your things without your knowing" she flips it around on you like you are a "monster" for having this grievance. While overlooking her own provoking behavior.

Then I get further insecure and upset, feeling left out and emotionally abandoned that instead of showing me empathy, she uses logic and reason to prove why she needs to withhold information. It's a cycle that is bringing me to severe anguish. Last night I was in physical pain from this situation.

She plays head games. It causes you pain.

Walk away.

She is insecure and is not able to handle her partner being upset with her. She probably has guilt issues with sex. This is why she can't handle me being upset or why she isn't sexualy intimate with me. I was placed me in the "companion" box which is not kinky enough for her. I'm a kind and emotional lover, so this outcome makes sense.

No. The outcome of her making excuses does not make sense. You did not cause this insecurity in her. You cannot cure it FOR her, she has to do the work herself. You certainly do not deserve "flipperoo" and drama when you hold her accountable for her behavior.

My plan is to just work on myself despite my expectations of her. I'm going to not care about her, take my heart back, see other people.

Does that mean you are breaking up with her and moving on? If so, good for you. Be done with this.

Hopefully you feel calmer and more secure when you are not waiting for some NEW drama thing of hers to happen. Date people who treat you nicely. Not people who play head games with you and cause you pain.

Galagirl
 
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